Post: #1

Obviously this topic has been broached at length, but what trends are you seeing in the sexual market place--and most importantly how are YOU allocating your time and energy to compete as things change.

Please no 'victim mentalities' and no complaining. That type of pessimism or negativity are toxic to read, so please post only if:
- you notice things are changing, AND
- you have some strategy you are effecting to not only keep up with but profit from the change

---

I will throw out a few with ample credit to many public figures who write about these things, many posters here, and personal experience.

Trends:
- the percentage of girls open to come-straight-over lays is skyrocketing, as they know this is the way they 'compete' for the high value guys getting laid
- ascendance of photography, not just 'Instagram game' but even on Tinder more photos are allowed, and everyone's photo (and video...) quality is increasing rapidly
- very few girls are 'first timers' to online dating or haven't heard the stories; no one comes in expecting something even moderately lasting, even to in-person meets
- the shift from 'dating' to 'casual dating' to pure hookups is accelerating; expectations for individualized effort/game or time invested is tanking
- less verbal game in all ways. Guys of high value get laid easily. Girls know this and respond accordingly with little expectation of being entertained
- girls today are hyper-realists about everything; years ago people talked about 'forebrain' and 'hindbrain'; today girls tend to know exactly what's happening.


Personally, I'm focused on raw value-boosting and almost zero effort to what I used to consider 'game' (message 'game', date 'game' etc.). Those used to be helpful for girls who are new to apps, wanted an hour or two of connection, or wanted the feel of hybrid 'dating'--today they seem totally unnecessary. Girls today know how to go other places to get entertained and increasingly bifurcate--other guys can be their emotional fluffer and they meet up to bang.

Strategy: get in better shape, better looking, better pictures, better body language and frame, better presence in-person etc. All with the idea game is increasingly Tinder window-shopping and efficient day-game. Most 'online game' is purely having high value and logistics-setting, that's it. And 'in-person game' is notice her interest, get her number, and meet to bang.

Obviously different countries are in different stages, as are different cities, but it does seem like in the last couple/few years these trends have been accelerating. Tinder provides such an efficient 'market clearing'--and all sides know it--that all the emphasis today is best placed on ACTUAL value and SCALABLE marketing (i.e. app profile and overall in-person impression), not individualized one-off effort or 'game'.

Look forward to others' thoughts--both on trends and what you view as the appropriate strategies. For those who find all this fairly obvious, would love to hear projections of where you think we are in 10 years, 20 years, etc.

Post: #2

Mentioned this in another thread. As a brown guy doing night game mostly in Toronto for 10-15 years, I've noticed girls today are far less likely to give a guy whose looks they don't like a window of opportunity to game them.

It used to be that a guy's average in looks would get a window of opportunity to win her over with smooth talking. A lot of old PUA material emphasized verbal game (negs, DHV stories, routines etc.)

This is no longer true. A guy's looks and style have to be on point to even get the audition. Women are mimicking their behaviour on Tinder in real life. If you don't pass her looks bar, she won't engage you - it's an instant no/swipe left.

Post: #3

(10-13-2018 11:05 AM)SLSlayer Wrote:  Mentioned this in another thread. As a brown guy doing night game mostly in Toronto for 10-15 years, I've noticed girls today are far less likely to give a guy whose looks they don't like a window of opportunity to game them.

It used to be that a guy's average in looks would get a window of opportunity to win her over with smooth talking. A lot of old PUA material emphasized verbal game (negs, DHV stories, routines etc.)

This is no longer true. A guy's looks and style have to be on point to even get the audition. Women are mimicking their behaviour on Tinder in real life. If you don't pass her looks bar, she won't engage you - it's an instant no/swipe left.

That's an interesting way of putting it. It's a swipe world nowadays.

Post: #4

I've always said people are underestimating how disruptive tinder is to the dating market. The problem is it's so much more efficient than anything else out there, it's hard to not do it. It's almost like a cheap foreign goods flooding the market, I'd like the idea of supporting local businesses, but when the shit from China is much cheaper, who can say no? Similarly I like the idea of meeting girls through cold approach, but when you're a busy professionals it so much easy to just buy a tinder boost(still much cheaper then going out to a bar, even for one drink) and swipe to your hearts content while taking a shit.

On the other hand that means almost every attractive girls who's not extremely conservative is fucking someone, especially if you live in a big city. Increased access works both ways.

I agree investing in good pictures is key nowawdays, luckily I think most men are still smucks about it.

Also, I've noticed alot of black dudes dating up recently.

Post: #5

I know you said not to be negative but how can you not be when you realize the abysmal state the dating scene is now.

I’ve banged almost 100 girls now, over 15 being in just this year. I’m so burned out from banging random sloots that I would love nothing more than to have a genuine connection with a girl and be in a relationship.

The undertaking to find a decent girl that you’re attracted to and isn’t degenerate or psychotic is almost Herculean at this point. And this is coming from a 6’5”, athletic, white guy with a decent job.

All I think about every time I’m balls deep in some new ho is the last chick that I actually loved and it scares the shit out of me that I won’t be able to find that again due to the nature of the game now days.

And you know it’s bad when you have lifelong players like Roosh pretty much going MGTOW cause they don’t want to deal with this shit anymore.

Honestly the older I get the lesss my ego needs to be stroked by banging random girls. To me right now jerking off into a sock and banging some whore are almost equal in satisfaction to me.

Men and women aren’t base animals and we crave that intimacy that can only be given by the opposite sex. The real reason you need game today is to get that intimacy. Getting sex in today’s world is easy. Finding a girl worthy and having/mainting a connection with her is the real challenge.

Post: #6

(10-13-2018 12:11 PM)Mr. Bigglesworth Wrote:  I know you said not to be negative but how can you not be when you realize the abysmal state the dating scene is now.

I’ve banged almost 100 girls now, over 15 being in just this year. I’m so burned out from banging random sloots that I would love nothing more than to have a genuine connection with a girl and be in a relationship.

The undertaking to find a decent girl that you’re attracted to and isn’t degenerate or psychotic is almost Herculean at this point. And this is coming from a 6’5”, athletic, white guy with a decent job.

All I think about every time I’m balls deep in some new ho is the last chick that I actually loved and it scares the shit out of me that I won’t be able to find that again due to the nature of the game now days.

And you know it’s bad when you have lifelong players like Roosh pretty much going MGTOW cause they don’t want to deal with this shit anymore.

Honestly the older I get the lesss my ego needs to be stroked by banging random girls. To me right now jerking off into a sock and banging some whore are almost equal in satisfaction to me.

Men and women aren’t base animals and we crave that intimacy that can only be given by the opposite sex. The real reason you need game today is to get that intimacy. Getting sex in today’s world is easy. Finding a girl worthy and having/mainting a connection with her is the real challenge.

If you're a 6'5" good looking white guy with a good job, yeah, but try being an average-looking guy for size and come back and tell me that getting sex is easy in today's SMP. But I agree with your assessment of the calibre of the vast majority of western women - no question.

Post: #7

I don't care how good looking, successful, confident, and intelligent you might be-- as a 'normal' guy, landing women is always a numbers game.
Although working to maximize particular attributes and skills will increase your overall success levels, there is absolutely no silver bullet for securing pussy.
There wouldn't be numerous self-help outlets and forums, lifestyle coaches and professional PUAs if such a thing existed.

Due to women's nature and the way society is headed, the only thing that will take your success and retention rate to the highest level is fame/status (i.e. mainstream athlete, musician, actor, etc.) and/or wealth (depending on the girl).

Post: #8

I'm new to Game, only been in this for about 2.5 years. As soon as I joined up I realized that looks are becoming more and more important, so I've focused on looksmaxing for the past few years, and haven't really focused that much on technical game. I get 85% of my lays through Tinder. I've always invited girls directly over, I realized instantly that that was an optimal strategy.

The increasing photo quality on Tinder is something that I've never seen someone mention, but it's been a bit depressing. Used to be I was in the minority with DSLR shots... now everyone has them. It keeps getting harder for average guys as more attractive guys up the ante, I have to keep finding new avenues to compete.

I invested in Instagram game starting a few years ago but unfortunately it hasn't paid off. The myth that girls were banging average-looking guys just off a cool Instagram profile and a lot of followers was always a myth. I wouldn't recommend that guys put too much time into it if anyone is thinking of starting it right away.

Post: #9

@ corsega

What did you do to enhance your look ? Could you list the areas ? Physique , style , ...etc

Post: #10

@corsega would you be willing to write a step by step guide on how you deal with girls coming over to your place straight? I know since it's from tinder girls are going to your place directly well knowing what they're getting into, but what do you actually do exactly once they are at your place? How do you build up the escalation and what conversation topics do you touch on?

Post: #11

(10-13-2018 05:16 PM)chvrches Wrote:  @corsega would you be willing to write a step by step guide on how you deal with girls coming over to your place straight? I know since it's from tinder girls are going to your place directly well knowing what they're getting into, but what do you actually do exactly once they are at your place? How do you build up the escalation and what conversation topics do you touch on?

There's a ZDB thread for this topic.

Post: #12

(10-13-2018 04:14 PM)Mizo1234 Wrote:  @ corsega

What did you do to enhance your look ? Could you list the areas ? Physique , style , ...etc

Physique - has always been good but I gained muscle, cut bodyfat and took a shirtless photo of myself, indoors, with the perfect lighting so I look way more ripped than I actually am.

Style - fuckboy/bad boy style. Clothes that show off my physique. Looked at the style of guys that fucked girls that I wanted and tried to emulate: https://pancakemouse.wordpress.com/2017/...o-attract/

Face/Skin - I got botox on my forehead, I've always had wrinkles. Not sure how much this actually helped as far as SMV but it did make my wrinkles look better.

I researched and implemented a skincare routine. Once a week chemical exfoliant, cleanser, moisturizer and sunscreen every day.

(10-13-2018 05:17 PM)Player_1337 Wrote:  

(10-13-2018 05:16 PM)chvrches Wrote:  @corsega would you be willing to write a step by step guide on how you deal with girls coming over to your place straight? I know since it's from tinder girls are going to your place directly well knowing what they're getting into, but what do you actually do exactly once they are at your place? How do you build up the escalation and what conversation topics do you touch on?

There's a ZDB thread for this topic.

Yeah, I pretty much do this.

Post: #13

Love that framing: it's a swipe world nowadays. Sums up everything.

I strongly recommend the aforementioned thread on zero-date bangs. That's definitely the optimal approach today--with the ease/convenience of your location key. And some extra points for a rooftop / balcony or the plausible deniability of inviting her over to something at your place. Though most don't even need that these days.


As for relationships, I think the trend we're going to see is total non-monogamy. Girls don't want to be locked down, they know quality guys can't be... Been a long time reader of guys like blackdragon who preach this, but even still I'm surprised to hear he number of guys with easy lays not seeing relationship material at all these days.

I would speculate that's where we're headed: totally casual open everything. Which makes it more and more key to:

1. Daygame. Not dancing monkey gaming but just say hi and get numbers when you see normal girls where you sense there's a mutual interest. Tinder skews to heavy Tinder users and it's not like any of us invest much before meeting so in person is the only place to select for actual genuine vibing.

2. Get used to the idea of non monogamy. Less and less people will be in 'passing the time' or 'locked down' relationships so the key is spending time with girls you enjoy spending time with (what a thought!). Find them, have a vision for how and when you'd hang etc. My best relationships have been that way and relationships are more and more a genuine match in personality and mutual vision for dating than a necessity to get repeatedly laid.


I'd again emphasize don't give in to the negativity, or spread it here anyway. We live in a world in which you can get laid near instantly with amazing variety. And relationships are almost certainly going to leave you free to keep it that way in perpetuity. Relationships aren't something that come about by banging randoms or complaining the world isn't the same.

Optimal strategy is probably designing a life and frame, and then setting a vision and standards for the girls' personality and mutual activities--and going out and finding those types of girls. All while accepting that titles, living together, spending tons of time together, etc. are increasingly fading. Meaning all you can do is the figure out your favorite qualities in girls you've actually banged, your favorite setups from girls you're actually dating or see others dating and work backwards to design a vision compatible with today's reality.

Post: #14

(10-14-2018 02:56 AM)travelplayer3 Wrote:  Love that framing: it's a swipe world nowadays. Sums up everything.

I strongly recommend the aforementioned thread on zero-date bangs. That's definitely the optimal approach today--with the ease/convenience of your location key. And some extra points for a rooftop / balcony or the plausible deniability of inviting her over to something at your place. Though most don't even need that these days.


As for relationships, I think the trend we're going to see is total non-monogamy. Girls don't want to be locked down, they know quality guys can't be... Been a long time reader of guys like blackdragon who preach this, but even still I'm surprised to hear he number of guys with easy lays not seeing relationship material at all these days.

I would speculate that's where we're headed: totally casual open everything. Which makes it more and more key to:

1. Daygame. Not dancing monkey gaming but just say hi and get numbers when you see normal girls where you sense there's a mutual interest. Tinder skews to heavy Tinder users and it's not like any of us invest much before meeting so in person is the only place to select for actual genuine vibing.

2. Get used to the idea of non monogamy. Less and less people will be in 'passing the time' or 'locked down' relationships so the key is spending time with girls you enjoy spending time with (what a thought!). Find them, have a vision for how and when you'd hang etc. My best relationships have been that way and relationships are more and more a genuine match in personality and mutual vision for dating than a necessity to get repeatedly laid.


I'd again emphasize don't give in to the negativity, or spread it here anyway. We live in a world in which you can get laid near instantly with amazing variety. And relationships are almost certainly going to leave you free to keep it that way in perpetuity. Relationships aren't something that come about by banging randoms or complaining the world isn't the same.

Optimal strategy is probably designing a life and frame, and then setting a vision and standards for the girls' personality and mutual activities--and going out and finding those types of girls. All while accepting that titles, living together, spending tons of time together, etc. are increasingly fading. Meaning all you can do is the figure out your favorite qualities in girls you've actually banged, your favorite setups from girls you're actually dating or see others dating and work backwards to design a vision compatible with today's reality.

Bullshit. Men are increasingly experiencing either a famine or a feast in the current SMP as the market efficiencies that social media apps allow for skew the bell curve further to the extreme of abundance for the tiny minority of good-looking guys that make the grade, with an ever burgeoning lump of guys shut out of the market altogether. It's a winner-takes-all market now and you can't see this, because you're standing in the winner's camp.

Post: #15

For me Tinder is still a daily grind where I work hard to get one or two new notches a month at the 6/7 level, but it has always been like that (except that a few years ago I could get an occasional 8+). I agree that ‘do you want to meet for sex?’ works better than ever. Few girls expect real dating anymore. Most disappear after the bang (which is relatively new, in the past it was possible to build a longer relationship).

I have two plates. One I met a few years ago when online dating was still for relationships, and the other from daygame (she’s too lazy and shy to go online).

I should probably leave Tinder and focus on daygame but I hesitate as 90% of my new notches come from the internet.

Post: #16

[redacted]

Post: #17

I am probably going to get a ton of shit from this from guys of all races but I'll share a trend I've noticed in the past couple of years.

The sexual market value of minorities, of all kinds, is skyrocketing. Top tier guys of minority races feast like a motherfucker!

Now don't get me wrong, as an Indian guy, most guys from my race are still fapping to porn and asking for "Bobs and vegene" on Facebook while crying about how tough it is to be brown because the average Indian guy doesn't have much of an SMV, but for top tier minorities in general, the ceiling keeps getting higher and higher.

It used to be rare for me to see white women with anything other than a white guy or the occasional black guy, these days I see white women that are young and good looking with all sorts of minorities but the guy is usually well put together. I think it's a fair trade, the guy is well put together and the girl is usually attractive.

Its not just white women either, I notice I see a lot more situations where even some ethnic women these days who are culturally assimilated open up to either going for guys of their own race or a guy of another minority group instead of selling out hard and going for a white guy to climb a social ladder.

I used to hear all the time about four years ago how minorities are dead when it comes to online dating and how you have to be a white guy in order to get a lot of matches on dating apps. It may have been the case a decade or so ago but these days, even I notice online dating getting easier for me as an above average looking Indian guy (not tough to do when you see how low quality the typical Indian guy is).

At some point I think this is going to invite some really hostile race situations, not just from white guys either but also women of minority groups who no longer have a fallback plan from top tier guys of their own race who have other options now.

My thoughts are films like Get Out, the world becoming more international and Hollywood slowly introducing foreign culture has made western women significantly more open minded towards going interracial which might not have been the case decades ago. That on top of the fact that a lot of minorities whose parents were immigrants are now assimilating into western culture.

Post: #18

(10-13-2018 12:11 PM)Mr. Bigglesworth Wrote:  I know you said not to be negative but how can you not be when you realize the abysmal state the dating scene is now.

I’ve banged almost 100 girls now, over 15 being in just this year. I’m so burned out from banging random sloots that I would love nothing more than to have a genuine connection with a girl and be in a relationship.

The undertaking to find a decent girl that you’re attracted to and isn’t degenerate or psychotic is almost Herculean at this point. And this is coming from a 6’5”, athletic, white guy with a decent job.

All I think about every time I’m balls deep in some new ho is the last chick that I actually loved and it scares the shit out of me that I won’t be able to find that again due to the nature of the game now days.

And you know it’s bad when you have lifelong players like Roosh pretty much going MGTOW cause they don’t want to deal with this shit anymore.

Honestly the older I get the lesss my ego needs to be stroked by banging random girls. To me right now jerking off into a sock and banging some whore are almost equal in satisfaction to me.

Men and women aren’t base animals and we crave that intimacy that can only be given by the opposite sex. The real reason you need game today is to get that intimacy. Getting sex in today’s world is easy. Finding a girl worthy and having/mainting a connection with her is the real challenge.

Stop banging randoms, be the microcosm made macrocosm like Solzhenitsyn said. I acted out for a while too, it was fun for a second, but I knew I'd be back to square 1 looking for quality.

I find the real issue is finding someone in a niche or young enough to be worthwhile. If 30s, odds are, you are the late arrival savior, which sucks if you do well. As Roosh said a long time ago, dating doesn't work. This is proven without a doubt with "online" dating or platforms. Women are a reflection of the culture. This culture is debased.

Post: #19

(10-13-2018 02:28 PM)Player_1337 Wrote:  I don't care how good looking, successful, confident, and intelligent you might be-- as a 'normal' guy, landing women is always a numbers game.

So true. ACCESS has been my thing for years around here, as Biggles says above, if she's attractive and not locked in a cage by her dad, she's ridden the carousel at this point in America. The real access we need is for younger more energetic and non cynical bitches, sadly that usually means outside the USA/West.