Post: #1

I'm currently living and teaching in Vietnam but I really miss Europe. I'm thinking of teaching Chinese students online for about 17 or 18 dollars per hour whilst in Europe (I have friends who teach online and says its reliable).

I'm just trying to chose a new country. I think my budget is 800 euros a month. I will be earning around 1100 per month but I like to save at least 200 euros per month.

Which city is good for expat living? Both in terms of costs and lifestyle.

I've only been to Croatia and Bosnia and out of those two I would choose Croatia, but I haven't seen enough to make a firm decision.

My first choice of country would actually be Italy as I speak some Italian but the cost of living is more like a 1000 euros per month in a city (plus the difference of 4 euros pints versus 1.5 euros pints really adds up)

Post: #2

Have you got a way that you would be able to stay in the country permanently? I don't think any of these countries have an easy way to stay for more than 90 days. I believe the best way to be able to stay there is getting on a university course (which can include language courses), which will push your budget.

I haven't got knowledge of the whole area, but if you want to save money I would recommend Niš, in South Serbia. You can study Serbian at the uni for 1,500 euros per year. There's your one year visa.

The cost of living is a lot cheaper in South Serbia. When fruit and vegetables are in season you can get kilos of tomatoes and plumbs for about 0.20-0.30 euros. I was able to rent a two bedroom hours with water and electricity for 70 euros per month in another city north of Niš. Decent apartment in Niš = 250 euros.

An alternative is to live in Russia. You can get a 3 month business visa for Russia. Leave, get a 1 year one, then I think after that you can get a multi-year one. You don't need any valid business to get it. I was surprised at the ease of staying in Russia on visas and there aren't many places like that westwards.

Post: #3

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Maybe try Georgia. I made a datasheet on it. The lowdown is it sucks for meeting women and you will probably never meet any westerners. For almost every other aspect of life (0% foreign income tax, rent, 360 day visa and cost of living) it's pretty amazing.


But it seems like you're overconfident about the English Teaching online thing. R/Tefl on Reddit has had a lot of threads on online teaching. Most people who managed to get into it usually complain of only making $8 a hour. Everyone has anecdotal ("I know a guy who knows a guy who makes $20+ a hour from it") but none on there actually admits to making $20+ a hour from it.

Have to realize for $20/hour a school could hire an actual native English speaker.

Post: #4

(11-17-2018 11:21 PM)gework Wrote:  Have you got a way that you would be able to stay in the country permanently? I don't think any of these countries have an easy way to stay for more than 90 days. I believe the best way to be able to stay there is getting on a university course (which can include language courses), which will push your budget.

I haven't got knowledge of the whole area, but if you want to save money I would recommend Niš, in South Serbia. You can study Serbian at the uni for 1,500 euros per year. There's your one year visa.

The cost of living is a lot cheaper in South Serbia. When fruit and vegetables are in season you can get kilos of tomatoes and plumbs for about 0.20-0.30 euros. I was able to rent a two bedroom hours with water and electricity for 70 euros per month in another city north of Niš. Decent apartment in Niš = 250 euros.

An alternative is to live in Russia. You can get a 3 month business visa for Russia. Leave, get a 1 year one, then I think after that you can get a multi-year one. You don't need any valid business to get it. I was surprised at the ease of staying in Russia on visas and there aren't many places like that westwards.

It depends on Brexit.

As it stands, it is quite easy for EU people to move to UK and quite easy for us to move to other EU nations.

When we leave the European Union things will become more complex. I believe they will allow EU citizens to continue to live and work in UK and vice versa, but you never know.

As for the none EU Balkan states (everywhere but Slovenia, Croatia, and Romania) the laws are more grey. From my research I believe you can stay for 90 days then leave and come back (but I hear if you do it more than three times then troubles arise).

Post: #5

(11-17-2018 11:53 PM)BaatumMania Wrote:  /thread-70320.html

Maybe try Georgia. I made a datasheet on it. The lowdown is it sucks for meeting women and you will probably never meet any westerners. For almost every other aspect of life (0% foreign income tax, rent, 360 day visa and cost of living) it's pretty amazing.


But it seems like you're overconfident about the English Teaching online thing. R/Tefl on Reddit has had a lot of threads on online teaching. Most people who managed to get into it usually complain of only making $8 a hour. Everyone has anecdotal ("I know a guy who knows a guy who makes $20+ a hour from it") but none on there actually admits to making $20+ a hour from it.

Have to realize for $20/hour a school could hire an actual native English speaker.

My housemate was teaching online nearly every night; that's how I know what to do.

I hear we're lucky to be native English speakers, because non natives do earn as low as 8 dollars per hour. Having lots of in class experience probably helps a lot too.

Some people will fail at it though; but then again, many people fail doing the most simple of things.

I'll also be a private tutor on the side.

Post: #6

(11-17-2018 11:53 PM)BaatumMania Wrote:  But it seems like you're overconfident about the English Teaching online thing. R/Tefl on Reddit has had a lot of threads on online teaching. Most people who managed to get into it usually complain of only making $8 a hour. Everyone has anecdotal ("I know a guy who knows a guy who makes $20+ a hour from it") but none on there actually admits to making $20+ a hour from it.

Have to realize for $20/hour a school could hire an actual native English speaker.

If he's a native speaker, this is a pretty realistic goal in a cheap country. You can't live in the US just on that, but in SEA you can definitely get by and save a little. I do this now in my home country and make about double the non native quote you brought up. I do agree it's a HUGE benefit being a native speaker in that field. China specifically does get very stereotypical on that stuff. A Brazilian or Filipino for example can have 10 years experience and still not get paid as much as the American that walks in.

As for the OP's question, I can't comment on European cities too well given I have no experience on the continent. I do know teachers that have settled mainly in EE, Spain, and Portugal for Europe. Your Italy idea might be able to work too if you get out of Rome. Bulgaria, Croatia, and Estonia are supposed to be great nomad countries though. Maybe go for Poland, Ukraine, or Romania depending on what guys on the ground here say.

Post: #7

(11-17-2018 11:21 PM)gework Wrote:  An alternative is to live in Russia. You can get a 3 month business visa for Russia. Leave, get a 1 year one, then I think after that you can get a multi-year one. You don't need any valid business to get it. I was surprised at the ease of staying in Russia on visas and there aren't many places like that westwards.

US citizens can get a 3 year visa for Russia which allows them to stay for 6 months at a time, according the US Embassy website there only needs to be a one day interval between as well. I haven't personally tested mine beyond 3.5 months but have had no issues on the multiple entries I've made.

Someone could get paid much better than $20 an hour teaching English in Moscow with the right qualifications. Probably will make more than that just about anywhere to be honest, I know of non-native speakers who get more than that with private students.

As for Balkan's, realistically if you have a EU passport then the EU countries make the most sense as that greatly simplifies the whole visa thing. They're more expensive though in general.

Personally I found Montenegro to have the highest level of female talent, admittedly most of it imported, of these countries. The places the women flock to also tend to be a bit more expensive but it's not a big place so you could base somewhere cheap and just bus it out for weekends and the like.

Croatia's coast is beautiful but not sure you'll come in on that budget there as it's not a cheap place in any way really.

Albania is the obvious choice if money is the biggest question, it has some really beautiful places and is very cheap.

Romania is also cheap and nice, I really liked my short stay in Bucharest and even in the middle of Winter there was plenty of talent around, it's a very interesting looking city as well. Would be shocked if you can't find a nice apartment with fantastic internet that comes in easily under your budget and the food was cheap.

Can't comment on the other places as I haven't made my way there yet.

Post: #8

(11-18-2018 07:44 AM)yankeetravels Wrote:  

(11-17-2018 11:53 PM)BaatumMania Wrote:  But it seems like you're overconfident about the English Teaching online thing. R/Tefl on Reddit has had a lot of threads on online teaching. Most people who managed to get into it usually complain of only making $8 a hour. Everyone has anecdotal ("I know a guy who knows a guy who makes $20+ a hour from it") but none on there actually admits to making $20+ a hour from it.

Have to realize for $20/hour a school could hire an actual native English speaker.

If he's a native speaker, this is a pretty realistic goal in a cheap country. You can't live in the US just on that, but in SEA you can definitely get by and save a little. I do this now in my home country and make about double the non native quote you brought up. I do agree it's a HUGE benefit being a native speaker in that field. China specifically does get very stereotypical on that stuff. A Brazilian or Filipino for example can have 10 years experience and still not get paid as much as the American that walks in.

As for the OP's question, I can't comment on European cities too well given I have no experience on the continent. I do know teachers that have settled mainly in EE, Spain, and Portugal for Europe. Your Italy idea might be able to work too if you get out of Rome. Bulgaria, Croatia, and Estonia are supposed to be great nomad countries though. Maybe go for Poland, Ukraine, or Romania depending on what guys on the ground here say.

I've been earning 1800$ per month in Vietnam and spending 800$ per month (but housing costs in Vietnam are the same is e.europe for some insane reason).

I will earn less teaching online, but some things are worth more than money.

Post: #9

(11-18-2018 08:55 AM)JimBobsCooters Wrote:  

(11-17-2018 11:21 PM)gework Wrote:  An alternative is to live in Russia. You can get a 3 month business visa for Russia. Leave, get a 1 year one, then I think after that you can get a multi-year one. You don't need any valid business to get it. I was surprised at the ease of staying in Russia on visas and there aren't many places like that westwards.

US citizens can get a 3 year visa for Russia which allows them to stay for 6 months at a time, according the US Embassy website there only needs to be a one day interval between as well. I haven't personally tested mine beyond 3.5 months but have had no issues on the multiple entries I've made.

Someone could get paid much better than $20 an hour teaching English in Moscow with the right qualifications. Probably will make more than that just about anywhere to be honest, I know of non-native speakers who get more than that with private students.

As for Balkan's, realistically if you have a EU passport then the EU countries make the most sense as that greatly simplifies the whole visa thing. They're more expensive though in general.

Personally I found Montenegro to have the highest level of female talent, admittedly most of it imported, of these countries. The places the women flock to also tend to be a bit more expensive but it's not a big place so you could base somewhere cheap and just bus it out for weekends and the like.

Croatia's coast is beautiful but not sure you'll come in on that budget there as it's not a cheap place in any way really.

Albania is the obvious choice if money is the biggest question, it has some really beautiful places and is very cheap.

Romania is also cheap and nice, I really liked my short stay in Bucharest and even in the middle of Winter there was plenty of talent around, it's a very interesting looking city as well. Would be shocked if you can't find a nice apartment with fantastic internet that comes in easily under your budget and the food was cheap.

Can't comment on the other places as I haven't made my way there yet.

Is Croatia one of those weird countries where the capital city is actually cheap then small towns?

I've been to Zadar and split and liked both (Zadar was damn cheap too).

I felt Romania had the best looking women because they are both slav and latin in their looks.

Post: #10

Zagreb is more expensive than smaller towns around it. During the tourist season, coastal cities, especially Dubrovnik become much more expensive than Zagreb. That is pretty much all there is to say.

Post: #11

Forget Albania , they will never give you a residence permit for more than 3 months unless you are picked by them

Post: #12

Bulgaria has several mountain ranges, a riviera and decent cities. The girls are fit and good looking. Irrc they actually need new people since the population size shrank by 2 million since the 1990s. Bulgaria is one of the poorest countries in Europe though, and there are a lot of gypsies.

Post: #13

(11-19-2018 09:46 AM)scipiu Wrote:  Bulgaria has several mountain ranges, a riviera and decent cities. The girls are fit and good looking. Irrc they actually need new people since the population size shrank by 2 million since the 1990s. Bulgaria is one of the poorest countries in Europe though, and there are a lot of gypsies.

Highly considering Plovdiv now.

Depending on EU situation I may end up having to just do 90 days per country.

Post: #14

Belgrade is a city which offers many activities and a relatively high standard of living if you're willing to pay for it. Definitely a pleasant place with friendly locals and attractive women. And you'll have great access to other places in Europe via the airport.

Cluj-Napoca is also somewhat of a hidden gem in Romania while still being close to Serbia, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland and Ukraine. If you're flexible you could just buy a car and still be near to a bunch of different countries.

If you're looking for a permanent place to stay in I'd also consider the language spoken by the locals. While many will understand basic English the Balkans is still a place where you'll reach limitations if you can't converse in the native language.

Post: #15

(11-20-2018 08:08 AM)Adolf Hipster Wrote:  While many will understand basic English the Balkans is still a place where you'll reach limitations if you can't converse in the native language.

Well if you're talking about decades then sure. Why not even if just for killing time.

But it's not really as true anymore. I've been to many countries, worked, rented apartments, opened bank accounts and done business without needing to learn the local languages.

Pretty much the only time one needs English is talking to a sub-100 IQ THOT but I doubt they're marriage material. Practically every westerner I knew in most countries married a woman who was conversational / fluent in English. Never met one (and I think only once on YouTube I saw it) who had a Wife who couldn't speak conversational English or higher.

Post: #16

(11-19-2018 06:50 AM)Polniy_Sostav Wrote:  Forget Albania , they will never give you a residence permit for more than 3 months unless you are picked by them

It depends.

Normally it is easier to get above 3 months residence permission if you are going to invest or you come as an employee of a large company.

People started to get scared because there were plans to build camps for syrians and other brown refugees but the reaction of the peoplese made the government and EU todebunk anything related to the plan. Nationalism and racism became very evident

Albanians are not used tto large numbers of foreigners living side by side to them ( excluding the tourists who are visitors after all) besides Albanians in ex yugoslavia that had no choice.

Even in the Ottoman Empire because of predominance of the Albanians in that empire most of the balkans and by default ethnic Albanian lands were under Albanian Pashas and governors.

However the only large foreign community are pipinos or Italians. There are around 25,000 of them mostly in Tirana.

They had no problems getting new residence permissions.

Post: #17

(11-19-2018 09:46 AM)scipiu Wrote:  Bulgaria has several mountain ranges, a riviera and decent cities. The girls are fit and good looking. Irrc they actually need new people since the population size shrank by 2 million since the 1990s. Bulgaria is one of the poorest countries in Europe though, and there are a lot of gypsies.

You don't have to interact with gypsies unless you choose to - here in Sofia they are just background noise in most of the city aside from certain ghetto neighbourhoods where many of them live (I'm barely even sure which neighbourhoods actually, even after living here for five years).
And like everywhere else they are also extremely easy to distinguish from the regular Bulgarians.

I like Sofia, it's run down - although in the center they've made lots of improvements in just the years I've been here with redone walking street, restored parks etc., and there are a ton of nice restaurants and cafés - but nice and green in the summer.
The two major seaside cities are also nice in the summer, as is the second largest city Plovdiv, which has a beautiful old town, a nice center and some beautiful, large hills.

Smaller provincial towns and cities range from pretty nice places to visit in the summer - I've been to a number for spa trips or hiking bases - to some of the ugliest stereotypes from the communism era.

There's no shortage on beautiful and varied nature here, from mountain ranges to plains and lakes to seaside resorts (from the overcrowded and touristy hosts to young drunk Scandinavians, Germans and Brits, to smaller villages turned seasonal resorts).

This is the poorest country in the EU, although sometimes you wouldn't think so from all the malls in Sofia (they've built three or four new ones just while I've lived here) and the not insignificant number of Porsches, large Audis, BMWs and Mercedes and the occasional Ferrari or Lamborghini you see on the streets (nearly all acquired through smaller or greater involvement in crime, according to every normal local I have talked to about it - I used to think they were exaggerating and some just plain envious but I'm not so sure anymore. Lots of organized crime and corruption here. Perfectly safe city for daily life though).

Tourism to the capital has been going up the last couple of years in the summers, although I still don't think it's a particularly popular expat country.

English level is generally below average to fluent for locals under around 40 - and some older speak English as well - although it can still be a little unpredictable. In the medical clinic I go to some of the young (around 30) doctors speak worse English than the girls at the front desk and the administration. And sometimes you will run into young people who either can't or don't feel they can speak English (and I'm primarily talking about shop assistants here, not girls on the street who might be trying to find a simple way to say "not interested").

Post: #18

One of the biggest factors was also that I will only earn 1,100 euros per month online.

I have to pay 17.5% tax and I have to pay 80 euros health insurance so that takes me down to around 800 euros per month.

I read many people (foreigners too) can live off 500 euros per month in Romania, Serbia, and Bulgaria (Croatia and Slovenia are more expensive).

Now, this is the lowest I can earn, and I will earn extra due to private tutoring, but I think its wise to plan to your min income so that the extra cash is just that (i'll save the extra cash).

So still thinking it will be Plovdiv as it meets all my needs and its still slightly bigger than my home town in the uk.

Post: #19

And I need to add that some of the capital cities in those countries had higher rents - hence choosing a mid tier town in terms of population.

Post: #20

(11-21-2018 12:07 AM)flyinghorse Wrote:  And I need to add that some of the capital cities in those countries had higher rents - hence choosing a mid tier town in terms of population.

Since your budget is somewhat limited I would pick a student city, gives you more options for nightlife and budget activities. I would also suggest looking into Romania. Way more exotic factor as a foreigner compared to Croatia and also cheaper. Cluj (as mentioned) would be the most obvious one, but perhaps also Timisoara or Iasi.

Post: #21

(11-20-2018 08:17 AM)BaatumMania Wrote:  

(11-20-2018 08:08 AM)Adolf Hipster Wrote:  While many will understand basic English the Balkans is still a place where you'll reach limitations if you can't converse in the native language.

Well if you're talking about decades then sure. Why not even if just for killing time.

But it's not really as true anymore. I've been to many countries, worked, rented apartments, opened bank accounts and done business without needing to learn the local languages.

Pretty much the only time one needs English is talking to a sub-100 IQ THOT but I doubt they're marriage material. Practically every westerner I knew in most countries married a woman who was conversational / fluent in English. Never met one (and I think only once on YouTube I saw it) who had a Wife who couldn't speak conversational English or higher.

You can get by without knowing the language but you'll be perceived differently by the locals. It'll be difficult to really blend in. I suggested checking the languages and if you can find one that suits you and would be relatively easy to pick up it'd make sense to go for that country.

Post: #22

(11-21-2018 12:06 AM)flyinghorse Wrote:  One of the biggest factors was also that I will only earn 1,100 euros per month online.

I have to pay 17.5% tax and I have to pay 80 euros health insurance so that takes me down to around 800 euros per month.

I read many people (foreigners too) can live off 500 euros per month in Romania, Serbia, and Bulgaria (Croatia and Slovenia are more expensive).

Now, this is the lowest I can earn, and I will earn extra due to private tutoring, but I think its wise to plan to your min income so that the extra cash is just that (i'll save the extra cash).

So still thinking it will be Plovdiv as it meets all my needs and its still slightly bigger than my home town in the uk.

Any reason you wouldn't choose Sofia over Plovdiv? (Edit: Saw your other post about rent differences. You're probably right, although when I checked rent prices in Varna before I moved to Bulgaria they didn't really seem much lower than Sofia.)
While Plovdiv is a very nice city, it's also a city with around 350,000 people compared to 1.3+ million (likely significantly higher unofficially) in Sofia. Which obviously means more of most things you could want to do, whether it's bars, clubs, restaurants, cinemas, malls, parks, whatever.

I went from a city in Denmark around the size of Plovdiv to Sofia, and for the time being - even though I only use a tiny fraction of the things available in Sofia - I would have a bit of a hard time moving to a secondary city, except for seasonally in the summer, but then I would choose Varna on the coast instead of Plovdiv.

As far as your budget goes I pay €350 in rent quite far from the center, but you can realistically find apartments down to around €150-200. Although they might not be very nice ones.
Additional monthly costs of living - utilities, TV, internet, phone, public transportation and a few taxi rides now and then, as well as supermarket purchases (food, other necessities) - amount to around €300. So for me around €650 per month for basic living costs. But that can certainly be done cheaper here, since that's already more than an average monthly income for a local in Sofia and more than twice an income for many locals in small towns.
And then of course all the other more or less necessary "life expenses" on top of that, some of which are much cheaper here than in Western Europe (eg. restaurants, bars, pretty much any type of entertainment and some types of goods, local hotel stays if you want to travel the country a bit) and others which cost exactly the same (TV, phone, computers etc.).

Post: #23

Since the OP is British, I would suggest he consider supplementing his language teaching (which is going to be replaced by computers in the near future for serious learners, IMO, with real teachers kept around only to serve as scapegoats for when lazy kids don't learn anything) with some sort of work that leverages his British background. For example, real estate sales, package tourism development and management, sales and advertising consulting, etc. Obviously, there's already British ex-pats in Plovdiv etc doing this, but should be room for more.

I spent 2.5 months recently wandering around Bulgaria, mostly small towns and villages. Huge potential for tourism or cheap retirement homes for elderly British with limited pensions, but almost nobody speaks English in these small towns and they haven't a clue as to selling to the British. When I was at Yagodinska cave, for example, I heard lots of Russian being spoken by other tourists, but no other foreign languages. So clearly they are able to sell tourism services to Russians but having problems with other nationalities.

Post: #24

(11-21-2018 09:47 PM)Shemp Wrote:  Since the OP is British, I would suggest he consider supplementing his language teaching (which is going to be replaced by computers in the near future for serious learners, IMO, with real teachers kept around only to serve as scapegoats for when lazy kids don't learn anything) with some sort of work that leverages his British background. For example, real estate sales, package tourism development and management, sales and advertising consulting, etc. Obviously, there's already British ex-pats in Plovdiv etc doing this, but should be room for more.

I spent 2.5 months recently wandering around Bulgaria, mostly small towns and villages. Huge potential for tourism or cheap retirement homes for elderly British with limited pensions, but almost nobody speaks English in these small towns and they haven't a clue as to selling to the British. When I was at Yagodinska cave, for example, I heard lots of Russian being spoken by other tourists, but no other foreign languages. So clearly they are able to sell tourism services to Russians but having problems with other nationalities.

Its been hugely speculated on for the last 5 years with people thinking its on its last legs. I imagine there is a good 5 years left in it.

When/if it dries up I may have to move to my home country and teach law or history (I really don't want to move back to uk even though the money is better).

Post: #25

(11-21-2018 05:19 PM)MikeS Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 12:06 AM)flyinghorse Wrote:  One of the biggest factors was also that I will only earn 1,100 euros per month online.

I have to pay 17.5% tax and I have to pay 80 euros health insurance so that takes me down to around 800 euros per month.

I read many people (foreigners too) can live off 500 euros per month in Romania, Serbia, and Bulgaria (Croatia and Slovenia are more expensive).

Now, this is the lowest I can earn, and I will earn extra due to private tutoring, but I think its wise to plan to your min income so that the extra cash is just that (i'll save the extra cash).

So still thinking it will be Plovdiv as it meets all my needs and its still slightly bigger than my home town in the uk.

Any reason you wouldn't choose Sofia over Plovdiv? (Edit: Saw your other post about rent differences. You're probably right, although when I checked rent prices in Varna before I moved to Bulgaria they didn't really seem much lower than Sofia.)
While Plovdiv is a very nice city, it's also a city with around 350,000 people compared to 1.3+ million (likely significantly higher unofficially) in Sofia. Which obviously means more of most things you could want to do, whether it's bars, clubs, restaurants, cinemas, malls, parks, whatever.

I went from a city in Denmark around the size of Plovdiv to Sofia, and for the time being - even though I only use a tiny fraction of the things available in Sofia - I would have a bit of a hard time moving to a secondary city, except for seasonally in the summer, but then I would choose Varna on the coast instead of Plovdiv.

As far as your budget goes I pay €350 in rent quite far from the center, but you can realistically find apartments down to around €150-200. Although they might not be very nice ones.
Additional monthly costs of living - utilities, TV, internet, phone, public transportation and a few taxi rides now and then, as well as supermarket purchases (food, other necessities) - amount to around €300. So for me around €650 per month for basic living costs. But that can certainly be done cheaper here, since that's already more than an average monthly income for a local in Sofia and more than twice an income for many locals in small towns.
And then of course all the other more or less necessary "life expenses" on top of that, some of which are much cheaper here than in Western Europe (eg. restaurants, bars, pretty much any type of entertainment and some types of goods, local hotel stays if you want to travel the country a bit) and others which cost exactly the same (TV, phone, computers etc.).

Very helpful to read.

I come from a city of only 80,000 and moved up to a city of 250,000 which felt huge in England and met all my needs. A city much bigger than that just feels excessive.

Big cities make me feel claustrophobic as well.