Post: #1

I love central eastern European countries and the beauties that reside there. I am relocating there, I just can't decide where..

As a tall white American with dark features I did really well in Poland. Ukraine was full of hotties, Budapest is my favourite city but the women are a step down. Belgrade is crazy but they don't love Americans.

I want to buy cheap distressed apartments, renovate and flip them. (Cheap, like 20-50k USD studios)

Important to me:
Women
Real estate opportunities
Cheap cost of living
Food
Good transportation

I like good girls, hate gold diggers

Havent been south of Belgrade (besides greece, which I didn't love) haven't been east of Lviv or Belgrade..

I don't drink alcohol so nightlife is not important to me.

I know my thoughts are all over the place just feeling so lost and hoping to find a tid bit of information to help.

I love the beauty and how livable Budapest is.. the women are ok, but not incredible.. maybe I'm just nervous to flip my first house.. but maybe someone can share some information that could change my plans.. also Hungarian is fucking tough to learn!

Thanks a lot

Post: #2

Buying real estate in places where you don't understand the culture and laws with weak currencies and weak economies sounds like an extremely bad idea.

There are lots of cheap tradesmen available that can help locals and agencies that resell to foreigners to do the same thing as you.

Apartments in Budapest also aren't that cheap anymore. Maybe 60% of the price of a booming city like Portland OR with white collar jobs incomes for people with college degrees of 12k USD a year or often less than that.

Not sure why that is, maybe criminal money from other EU countries and upper middle class and above western Europeans securing a safer place if shit hits the fan with the migrant invasion.

The only cheap places left in central Budapest are total shoeboxes of 20sqm or so.

Post: #3

Salaries in Central/Eastern European capitals are quite good. Nobody with a decent job in IT, Accounting or Finance is making 12k a year in 2018. More like double or triple. Combined with the low cost of living you end up with more disposable income, that's why prices are high in places like Budapest. There's also a low of money flowing in from abroad, a lot of people who work in Western Europe live in crappy conditions and send everything back home.
Prices are usually 50% lower in 2nd or 3rd tier cities. That's where you can maybe flip some properties but you need a partner, somebody local who speaks the language and knows the market.

Post: #4

You make some valid points about it not sounding like a great idea.. and I'm in the very early stages of research.

I will hire an attorney to guide me through the legal steps.

I'm actually very interested in shoe box size apartments. Tiny home movement is growing and I think people are willing to give up space for location and ability to live alone.

Some things I disagree with what you said were
Prices being 60% of Portland Or. I'd guess more like 30%
Pretty sure you can't buy a closet in Portland for 40k
Lots of tradesman.. I've heard that there is actually a huge shortage because they all move west for better wages.

I will need a place to live while I flip, so I won't suffer from holding costs.

You should see the pictures of apartments for sale. they don't even take the dirty dishes from the sink..

Budapest is also growing with foreigners moving here. As it is a great place where your money goes far.

I need to do something , not because I need the money, but because I want something to pour my energy into and I want more money ( I have a rental in the USA that provides enough to live off of over here)

Thank you!

Post: #5

Take it easy, mate. You seem confused and almost desperate. Don't worry, we've all been there.

I'd suggest you just pick a spot you're interested in and move there for a while. It doesn't have to be permanent. Once your thoughts are cleared and you'll have a more developed understanding of that area it'll be easier to see through the mist. There's opportunities (almost) everywhere. But it takes time to gather all that information that's out there. You're talking about real estate but you should be careful and not stumble into something daringly.

Post: #6

Pointer-
thank you for your comment.
I don't think I want to live in a 2nd or 3rd tier city in Hungary. My favorite part of Hungary is the city of Budapest.. I enjoy other languages and other women in other countries a bit more.
Ive spent some months in Krakow, Wroclaw, and Lviv Ukraine.. which are all livable cities for me.
I see upside in Ukraine as prices have been crashing for years. I am ok with risk and Ukraine carries plenty of risk.

Post: #7

Adolf Hipster-
picked up on my desperation huh? well you are not wrong.. Ive been going in circles for years trying to figure out what to persue..
I don't know if my ideas are recklass and stupid and that is why I don't follow through or I'm just talking myself out of things.
Your advice of finding a place I really enjoy and not being in a rush is good advice. It is just that i've been bouncing around for years now. I find places i like, but with no job/career I find myself without enough things to do. Then I pack my small suitcase and bounce to the next location. I've been a drug dealer my whole life so I don't have any skills (besides growing amazing dope) so i can't get a good job. I've always wanted to work for myself anyway, but I'm getting older and getting nowhere.
I even have a private lender who would invest decent money with me if i can come up with a decent plan. (altough i'm hestant to borrow and almost prefer starting out with a small flip)
I'm desperate to unpack my bag, rent/buy a place for long term, learn a new language and start creating a life I can be proud of, and when you are proud, driven and succesful that is when the ladies really fall for you.

Post: #8

You need to figure out what your competitive advantage is. As a pure flipper, no advantage over locals. What I world recommend is moving to Mykolaiv, Ukraine and then selling apartments to those guys who go there on $5000 romance tours. Your competitive advantage is that you are a fellow American and can talk to them in their own lingo. Tell them some bullshit that if they buy the apartment and visit Mykolaiv again by themselves, away from the tour, it will be get easy to find beautiful young women to date because owning the apartment shows they are serious about establishing roots in Ukraine. Hire a beautiful young Ukrainian girl as an assistant to "accidentally" bump and rub against the guy and make goo goo eyes at him. Split profits with her and other local partners. If you try to do everything on your own, you will fail miserably. You should be able to flip the apartment over and over: sell to one guy, buy it back cheap when that guy tires of it, sell it again to another guy, etc. I've never been on those tours, but there are some YouTube videos about them. It's apparently a big industry in Mykolaiv and to a lesser extent Kherson.

Post: #9

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I did a data sheet on Batumi. Unfortunately it breaks your #1 in terms of women. The blogger Andrew Henderson really loves Georgia but if I recall correctly his fiancee is a Russian women. It's a really shitty country to be a single male in.

If you got $500,000 then I would think Poland or Baltic would be your best bet because most of them (AFAIK) still grant residency visas to people who buy real estate (but it has to be worth over $300,000 or something?).

If you're telling us your broke - then Montenegro and Albania grants temporary residency visas to anyone who buys real estate but I honestly don't know anyone who lived there (except that blogger Andrew Henderson I mentioned before).

Post: #10

I sounds like you do not know what you are getting yourself into, OP.

In your position, I would not advise doing the real estate thing, especially in a foreign country.

Post: #11

(11-20-2018 08:29 AM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  I sounds like you do not know what you are getting yourself into, OP.

In your position, I would not advise doing the real estate thing, especially in a foreign country.

Yes, it is quite obvious that he has no clue as to what he is doing. If he did, he would ask about countries with the best economies, the least amount of regulation and corruption, the best demographics, a rule of law that applies to everyone (including foreigners), the best appreciation rates on real estate, etc. Instead, he asks about women, which should be last on the list.

Post: #12

(11-20-2018 07:52 AM)BaatumMania Wrote:  /thread-70320.html

I did a data sheet on Batumi. Unfortunately it breaks your #1 in terms of women. The blogger Andrew Henderson really loves Georgia but if I recall correctly his fiancee is a Russian women. It's a really shitty country to be a single male in.

If you got $500,000 then I would think Poland or Baltic would be your best bet because most of them (AFAIK) still grant residency visas to people who buy real estate (but it has to be worth over $300,000 or something?).

If you're telling us your broke - then Montenegro and Albania grants temporary residency visas to anyone who buys real estate but I honestly don't know anyone who lived there (except that blogger Andrew Henderson I mentioned before).

It is not exactly right for Albania.

To have unlimited residency, you need to buy property that goes to 100,000 euros.

Also georgians are some of the biggest wannabe Europeans i have ever seen.

A lot of Georgian women have married to Italians in Italy btw.

Post: #13

OP , be careful. I have no money now for it but also have long term plans to buy something in Ukraine. In such places , even if you are helped by some attorney or something , you can easily lose your property. One day some guy will come and will find some wrong stuff in the flat and then it won't be yours anymore.
In my opinion unless you are a very experienced investor in very corrupt country you should try that move.
You should also have good insights of economics (which I don;t have)
The most important in poor countries is to have influent contacts. The poorer the country the more someone will try to be friend with you and tell you that he can open the doors for you for this this this and that. Trust only people who are really friends and use contacts through family or close colleagues if you have worked there.
I for instance would go only through one channel : my wife's best friend's mother owns a real estate , and my wife's relative is married to someone who is a big land owner and has a few businesses so he has contacts.

Don't believe in the american dream outside America. I cannot talk for Hungary or countries like this (it must be reduced that risk as it s a bit less corrupt) but dont trust anyone in Ukraine. It is a really tough place to make any sort of business.

Post: #14

I agree with the suggestions of caution.

At least go live there and rent for 6 months before you consider a purchase. Wrap you head around the issues.

I have seen it all myself in the real estate jungles of Thailand, and a expat and his money are sitting ducks, let me warn you...

Post: #15

Why not go live in Budapest or Lviv, buy an apartment to live in if you like, but keep your investing separate from your lifestyle.
I've been looking online at Budapest real estate, it's not super cheap, but still good value. There is not a huge growth in population going on there, but it's getting wealthier. When District VIII has gentrified you'll know Budapest has really come a long way.

Post: #16

With regard to real estate some banks in the Ukraine take back properties that have mortgage defaults/bankruptcies (as banks do in the west) and post the properties in their websites. I have seen some fairly nice cheap places on the sites.
This link takes you to one bank asset sale window...you'll need translate to english for the page..and input real estate parameters http://zalog.aval.ua/

I (hope) the properties have proper title, surveys and no liens etc etc... because the "bank owns them".

That said I have talked to some foreign property owners that are stuck with overpriced apartments/flats because the bottom fell out of the market and the bottom (may never in our lifetime) be reached before the market goes back up.

The last time I looked the Bank of the Ukraine has set it's prime rate to 20%. This will affect the real estate market of course..for the locals and if a foreign buyer has cash for 100% purchase price he/she may scoop a sweet heart bargain.(if the property was at the bottom of the cycle)

The flip side to a high prime rate is that BONDS in the Ukraine are going for around 15% .......you can't get that rate of return on investment currently with real estate or some businesses.
Foreigners can open bank accounts and buy these bonds. (deposits are guaranteed by Ukraine gov to 250,000 rph...you may need a few banks)
Example (BANK AVAL)
“Savings” Deposit
UAH
Amount of Deposit..... 3 months...6 months ...367 days
up to UAH 200 000..... 12,00%.... 14,00%... 11,25%
UAH 200 000 and more..... 13,00%... 15,00%... 11,50%

Other tidbits.....Ukraine doesn't do duo citizenship....meaning you marry a Ukrainian girl you have to decide which country you want to be a citizen of and you can only choose one country. Meaning if anyone is thinking of marrying the sweet village girl and moving into a Kiev apartment it may be your "vacation home"...not where you raise kids.

The tax rate is 20% on income in the Ukraine the Ukraine has tax treaties with various countries (most western ones)

Post: #17

@Incubus: if you marry a Ukrainian, you can residency visa without need to take citizenship, so rules against dual citizenship not an issue.

Real estate titles are a mess in Ukraine, even for the locals. They can also be a mess in the USA but at least we have a well established system of title search and title insurance to protect against problems. You need a competent lawyer before buying real estate in Ukraine to ensure no title problems.

To give an idea of title issues. Suppose I buy a property now while I am single. Then I marry and use marital assets to renovate the property, so it becomes marital (community) property. Then I divorce and the court awards part ownership of the property to my ex because it was marital property, but the property records are not properly updated for some reason. Then my ex dies and leaves her estate to her child. Then I die and leave my estate to my child, who then marries and uses marital assets to further renovate the apartment which he thinks he fully owns. Then he divorces and the court awards part ownership of the property to his ex. The property records were never updated to reflect all these part ownership transfers and I am still listed as sole owner even though I am dead. Now what? If you buy this mess, all kinds of people can come at you to demand compensation for their part ownership.

Post: #18

Yes Shemp...I was going to add on that marriage item that once married your status becomes temporary resident and from there permanent resident (I think) but not sure of permanent residency only because being temporary is inline with doing the paper work to becoming a citizen.

Yes death, marriage/divorce/re marriage, kids and real estate/assets only make the lawyers rich

Personally I have been toying with the idea that wherever I buy a property in Europe/FSU to set up a business/corporation ...Property Management Bulgaria INC ...as an example.

I am not sure of exact business model that protects/gives sole control of assets as in a board of directors (a wife,kids) or shareholders or single proprietor

It would flow with having a property to use as a AIRBNB or rental.

Perhaps some one has looked deeper into this area.

Post: #19

(11-24-2018 12:04 PM)Incubus Wrote:  Yes Shemp...I was going to add on that marriage item that once married your status becomes temporary resident and from there permanent resident (I think) but not sure of permanent residency only because being temporary is inline with doing the paper work to becoming a citizen.

Yes death, marriage/divorce/re marriage, kids and real estate/assets only make the lawyers rich

Personally I have been toying with the idea that wherever I buy a property in Europe/FSU to set up a business/corporation ...Property Management Bulgaria INC ...as an example.

I am not sure of exact business model that protects/gives sole control of assets as in a board of directors (a wife,kids) or shareholders or single proprietor

It would flow with having a property to use as a AIRBNB or rental.

Perhaps some one has looked deeper into this area.

This is an extremely complex area and depends on both your assets and your cash flow. If you have assets worth over $2 million, then a trust offers the most flexibility and protection but is also very expensive to set up and maintain. The next level down is a foundation. A Panama foundation is probably the most cost effective, although foundations first originated in Liechtenstein (but are very expensive). Both trusts and foundations can own LLCs and IBCs (which can own real estate), which is where you may wish to begin.

You could simply own real estate in an LLC or an IBC and simply have your will pass the LLC or IBC to your heirs. Of course, if you want control of your assets after death (even multi-generational control), then a trust or foundation is required.

If you are an American, you can own real estate in your own name and it is a non-reportable IRS event. Once you own real estate in any type of entity, you must report it. This is a highly simplified primer of a very complex area. I am not an expert, but just have a general understanding of the area.

A few articles regarding trusts and foundations (just for informational purposes;I am not advocating either of these companies):

http://www.escapeartist.com/blog/offshor...oundation/

http://premieroffshore.com/offshore-trus...oundation/

Post: #20

(11-23-2018 08:24 PM)Incubus Wrote:  The flip side to a high prime rate is that BONDS in the Ukraine are going for around 15% .......you can't get that rate of return on investment currently with real estate or some businesses.
Foreigners can open bank accounts and buy these bonds. (deposits are guaranteed by Ukraine gov to 250,000 rph...you may need a few banks)
Example (BANK AVAL)
“Savings” Deposit
UAH
Amount of Deposit..... 3 months...6 months ...367 days
up to UAH 200 000..... 12,00%.... 14,00%... 11,25%
UAH 200 000 and more..... 13,00%... 15,00%... 11,50%

I looked into this briefly last time I lived in Kiev a few years ago and once you take into account the losses from converting to and from UAH, the withholding tax, the currency risk, etc., it's not worth it.

The rates were even higher a few years ago, around 20 or 22% if I'm not mixing up my numbers.

Post: #21

(11-24-2018 01:15 PM)edlefou Wrote:  

(11-23-2018 08:24 PM)Incubus Wrote:  The flip side to a high prime rate is that BONDS in the Ukraine are going for around 15% .......you can't get that rate of return on investment currently with real estate or some businesses.
Foreigners can open bank accounts and buy these bonds. (deposits are guaranteed by Ukraine gov to 250,000 rph...you may need a few banks)
Example (BANK AVAL)
“Savings” Deposit
UAH
Amount of Deposit..... 3 months...6 months ...367 days
up to UAH 200 000..... 12,00%.... 14,00%... 11,25%
UAH 200 000 and more..... 13,00%... 15,00%... 11,50%

I looked into this briefly last time I lived in Kiev a few years ago and once you take into account the losses from converting to and from UAH, the withholding tax, the currency risk, etc., it's not worth it.

The rates were even higher a few years ago, around 20 or 22% if I'm not mixing up my numbers.

Not only is there a very high risk of currency conversion loss, but the banks in Ukraine are well-known to have ties to organized crime (so you may not get your money back). If you know what you are doing, you can get similaer types of returns with far less risk from owning apartments (you must really look for the right property in the right country, city, and neighborhood location) or productive agricultural land.

Post: #22

I consider it a very high probability that most of these CE/EE countries pass laws to restrict foreign ownership of real estate. Just a natural development in nationalistic countries. Consider that even Barcelona has begun attacking foreigners and tourists. Times they are a changing and one of the first things to go will be the AirBnB foreign landlords.

Post: #23

>>banks in Ukraine are well-known to have ties to organized crime

actually it's worse, they have ties to the current government, so if a new set of thieves gets control of the government, they can do things to make all the banks fail so as to hurt the previous set of thieves. Whether the depositors get hurt also depends.

The big problem with these banks is they lend out the depositors money to their friends in exchange for kickbacks, meaning they steal the money, and then the bank s fail when all this thievery comes to light. I'm exaggerating, of course, but possibility of crooked lending to friends has always been the basic problem with banks. After the last set of failures and IMF bailouts, they are supposedly cutting back on the thievery in Ukrainian banks, but you never know unless you're an insider.

Post: #24

(11-24-2018 01:46 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  Consider that even Barcelona has begun attacking foreigners and tourists.

I grew up in a city that was overran by immigrants / tourists, to the extent they outnumbered real locals, and it wasn't a fun time for me. I can't imagine it being great for Barcelonians either.

I had an ok time in Barcelona but quickly noticed it was a big Khao San: low quality places charging high prices, tons of foreigners, pickpockets and carnival performances and so on.

Honestly I'm starting to think some countries should be denying tourist visas unless you're staying for at least 2 weeks. The short term tourists seem to have a determinant affect on a lot of places or just kill the atmosphere altogether (like being near Maidan in Kiev and yet it looks like Istanbul with all the brown dudes).

Post: #25

I was thinking about Budapest or Prague myself.

The apartments I saw in Buda and Prague were massively cheap by Aussie standards..Considering it would cost you up to 600k to live 60km out of Melbourne and over a Million in Sydney.

I could live in the middle of Buda and 20 mins out of Prague for a third or quarter Aussie prices..Plus our dollar goes far in those places..

Spain is another cheap place I think you have to spend over 200 or 250 Euro to get residence there .But I'm no expert
My best mate lives in Barca snd another just moved to Slovenia booth Sydney boys.Another mate has a house in Corfu.