Post: #1

I'm working as an engineer in a mid-sized company. Have been there for about a year and am generally pretty happy with my job: Pay is good, coworkers are great and the work is (mostly) interesting. A part from a few minor things, I can't complain. I do mostly technical due diligence related stuff. Very little travel involved and only few client facing tasks.

Out of the blue I received a tempting job offer from a small company I interviewed with about 1.5 years ago. The role is basically B2B high-tech sales/ BD in a pretty niche market. Most of their business is done outside of Europe, i.e. lots of cool travel options. The company itself has been around for over 30 years and has a very solid market position.

Now I'm trying to assess the situation but since I've never been in this spot, it's not easy.

Here are the pros for the job offer:

• About 20% salary increase
• Drastically shorter commute (20 min vs 60-90 min)
• More international travel
• More client facing (manager vs engineer)
  

Here are the cons:

• Way smaller company (30 vs 200 employees)
• Female boss (Frumpy engineering type, late 30s, has a kid)
• Coworkers are unlikely to be as great
  

How would you approach this situation?

Post: #2

(12-27-2018 11:34 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  Here are the cons:

[*]Female boss (Frumpy engineering type, late 30s, has a kid)


How would you approach this situation?

Any female managers/co-workers are risky to deal with, especially in the anglosphere.

Keep your resume fresh and continue to be on the lookout for other job opportunities, in case you are fired/laid off.

Post: #3

(12-27-2018 11:34 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  I'm working as an engineer in a mid-sized company. Have been there for about a year and am generally pretty happy with my job: Pay is good, coworkers are great and the work is (mostly) interesting. A part from a few minor things, I can't complain. I do mostly technical due diligence related stuff. Very little travel involved and only few client facing tasks.

Out of the blue I received a tempting job offer from a small company I interviewed with about 1.5 years ago. The role is basically B2B high-tech sales/ BD in a pretty niche market. Most of their business is done outside of Europe, i.e. lots of cool travel options. The company itself has been around for over 30 years and has a very solid market position.

Now I'm trying to assess the situation but since I've never been in this spot, it's not easy.

Here are the pros for the job offer:

• About 20% salary increase
• Drastically shorter commute (20 min vs 60-90 min)
• More international travel
• More client facing (manager vs engineer)
  

Here are the cons:

• Way smaller company (30 vs 200 employees)
• Female boss (Frumpy engineering type, late 30s, has a kid)
• Coworkers are unlikely to be as great
  

How would you approach this situation?

Is this a sales job or sales engineer job? The former is responsible for closing and making quota; the latter is not typically. Significant difference in stress and pressure to perform between the two. The latter also usually has far better job security and leverage when seeking out other career opportunities.

Is the salary increase including commission? What percentage of other people make/exceed their quota?

Has anyone else in your potential future role been successful at the company? Tell them to prove it and show their income statements from the past 3 years.

Solid market position? Is that for all sales territories? Is the area they are are offering you garbage historically and hence why they have to scrap at the bottom of the barrel of resumes 1.5 years later hoping some sucker takes it?

Commute to HQ shouldn't matter much. You should be more concerned with commute to airport. Furthermore, you are not going to be able to really enjoy the traveling. Knew a guy who went from the US to Europe all the time and all he saw in Europe was an airport, a hotel, a conference room, and the airport again. That's not fun; that's exhausting.

What you should be focusing on is whether they will let you work remote 100% of the time eventually from home or within your territory. That's HUGE if you want to daygame, live in more preferable town, and take advantage of gaming opportunities due to having a flexible schedule. Most sales job work remote past entry level.

Your boss has a higher probable of being a pain in the ass and you say the co-workers are likely not that great. What's so "tempting" about this offer to you exactly? These are the people you will be learning the ropes from. New type of job and you want a shitty foundation? Not a good idea; believe me.

If you want a sales rep and/or sales engineer job, there are plenty of opportunities out there; especially if you have a tech/engineer background. If this is a path you want to go down, it's generally wise to start off on the best foot possible with a better company with better support structure/training.

Post: #4

An important question is in 1-3 years from now, will this job help your resume to the point where you can get another 20%+ pay increase by job hopping?

Post: #5

(12-27-2018 12:07 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  Is this a sales job or sales engineer job? The former is responsible for closing and making quota; the latter is not typically. Significant difference in stress and pressure to perform between the two. The latter also usually has far better job security and leverage when seeking out other career opportunities.

Is the salary increase including commission? What percentage of other people make/exceed their quota?

It's a sales engineer and business development job, no commission or quotas.

(12-27-2018 12:07 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  Has anyone else in your potential future role been successful at the company? Tell them to prove it and show their income statements from the past 3 years.

Solid market position? Is that for all sales territories? Is the area they are are offering you garbage historically and hence why they have to scrap at the bottom of the barrel of resumes 1.5 years later hoping some sucker takes it?

I reached out to the guy who had this job for the past 5+ years. He is leaving the company and therefore the position is open.

(12-27-2018 12:07 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  Commute to HQ shouldn't matter much. You should be more concerned with commute to airport. Furthermore, you are not going to be able to really enjoy the traveling. Knew a guy who went from the US to Japan all the time and all he saw in Japan was an aiport, a hotel, a conference room, and the airport again. That's not fun; that's exhausting.

What you should be focusing on is whether they will let you work remote 100% of the time eventually from home or within your territory. That's HUGE if you want to daygame, live in more preferable town, and take advantage of gaming opportunities due to having a flexible schedule. Most sales job work remote past entry level.

True. Yet, I'd really like to travel a bit more. Home office might be possible after some time with the company.

(12-27-2018 12:07 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  Your boss has a higher probable of being a pain in the ass and you say the co-workers are likely not that great. What's so "tempting" about this offer to you exactly? These are the people you will be learning the ropes from. New type of job and you want a shitty foundation? Not a good idea; believe me.

If you want a sales rep and/or sales engineer job, there are plenty of opportunities out there; especially if you have a tech/engineer background. If this is a path you want to go down, it's generally wise to start off on the best foot possible with a better company with better support structure/training.

Well, the pay is better and it's closer to my place...but I agree, the potential downsides are huge. Especially since I like my current boss and get along great with him.

Post: #6

(12-27-2018 12:12 PM)Repo Wrote:  An important question is in 1-3 years from now, will this job help your resume to the point where you can get another 20%+ pay increase by job hopping?

Good question. My current job would probably open more doors for me, if I stick with it.

Post: #7

First thing is to consider how important those pros and cons are to you.

Salary - Are you taking say 20k now at the cost of 100k p.a. for a decade in 10 years time? (More on this with the 2nd point of consideration).
Commute - This one is a positive unless that commute is a particularly productive time for you that you'd struggle to recreate in that extra free time.
Travel - Double edged sword. Will you get to actually see the places you go or will you just be replacing that gained commute time by sitting in airports, stuck in hotels and the like. Work travel can be substantially different to how you think it will be. Always good for those frequent traveler miles though that can be used elsewhere!
Client Facing - Same story, do you want to do this? Clients can make the job great but they can also make it terrible.

Smaller - Not necessarily bad, sometimes can mean easier promotion, better ownership potential, more responsibility and the like. Can of course mean all the opposite as well, would need a good feel for whether this will be a negative or not.
Co-Workers - Ditto, could well be better. That said, in a smaller firm one or two changes can really impact office dynamics a lot more.
Female Manager - No positive here, even if she's one of the good ones that allegedly exist, it's still going to be a pain in the ass.

Second point to consider of course is whether this offer gives you leverage at your current company. If those pros are what you're seriously seeking then perhaps you can go to your manager now and say "look, I've got an offer that's going to pay me substantially more than you guys are and is a role I'd much rather do, is there any chance of you guys matching it". This depends on basically whether you're a valued member, whether you have leverage, whether those roles exist, etc. It can be a good way to eliminate the cons and still get at least some of the pros. Basically if your pro/con analysis says you'd take the other job then you've got nothing to lose by trying to remove the cons and get the pros anyway and if they say no then you thank them politely and take the other job. Important to make it clear "that you've been approached" for the other job, don't leave them thinking that you're out there looking for jobs (unless you want them to think that for some reason).

Post: #8

Damn OP completely ignored my advice

Post: #9

(12-27-2018 12:36 PM)BoiBoi Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 12:12 PM)Repo Wrote:  An important question is in 1-3 years from now, will this job help your resume to the point where you can get another 20%+ pay increase by job hopping?

Good question. My current job would probably open more doors for me, if I stick with it.

Without knowing the details, 20% does not seem like a large enough increase to risk giving up potential career growth staying where you are, unless if the commute is super taxing on you and you dont think you'll ever be able to move closer to your current job. But a bad boss can be more taxing than a bad commute.

Can you negotiate that 20% to 30 or 40%?

Post: #10

(12-27-2018 12:36 PM)BoiBoi Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 12:12 PM)Repo Wrote:  An important question is in 1-3 years from now, will this job help your resume to the point where you can get another 20%+ pay increase by job hopping?

Good question. My current job would probably open more doors for me, if I stick with it.

There we are. That is what counts.

The fact that some company approached you means nothing. For you. They will find someone else, you should stay focussed on your long term career development, with planned milestones etc. Become a key member of your company's "inner circle" and money/promotion will come.

Also think about what "career" means for you - it can be many things (straight upward movement, rotation, specialisation, entrepreneurial )

Tell me more about you and your ambitions, am happy to help/discuss.

Post: #11

Why do you assume there will be career or salary growth by staying? In my experience, companies are less likely to advance you or increase your pay if you stay.

I think the commute time is huge.

Typically when you change, its for 25%. I would counter offer for that amount. Its been 1.5 years, an extra 5% is reasonable.

JimBobCooters has good advice that the different factors are valued differently by everyone. If you are single, international travel is great. If you have young children at home, its the worst thing possible.

Sounds like you are happy to stay so ask for the additional 5% and get to +25%. I would probably take it. I think the female boss thing is overblown. I've seen more problems in companies where there are too few females in authority, and they have to promote unqualified females to fix their numbers. The point is you don't avoid gender politics problems by working for a man, you just exchange one set of problems for another.

Everything else being equal, I would probably move for the +20% and inmprovement in commute time. If you go too long without moving these days, your salary will lag. Also, seeing different companies and environments is good because when you move up you have seen different approaches, some that worked well and some less well.

Post: #12

All replies are mixing up totally different components of the case. First, the OP should find out what his long-term career plans are, and which steps are necessary to reach that goal.

Post: #13

(12-27-2018 11:34 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  I'm working as an engineer in a mid-sized company. Have been there for about a year and am generally pretty happy with my job: Pay is good, coworkers are great and the work is (mostly) interesting. A part from a few minor things, I can't complain. I do mostly technical due diligence related stuff. Very little travel involved and only few client facing tasks.

Out of the blue I received a tempting job offer from a small company I interviewed with about 1.5 years ago. The role is basically B2B high-tech sales/ BD in a pretty niche market. Most of their business is done outside of Europe, i.e. lots of cool travel options. The company itself has been around for over 30 years and has a very solid market position.

Now I'm trying to assess the situation but since I've never been in this spot, it's not easy.

Here are the pros for the job offer:

• About 20% salary increase
• Drastically shorter commute (20 min vs 60-90 min)
• More international travel
• More client facing (manager vs engineer)
  

Here are the cons:

• Way smaller company (30 vs 200 employees)
• Female boss (Frumpy engineering type, late 30s, has a kid)
• Coworkers are unlikely to be as great
  

How would you approach this situation?

Well since I work in the space I'll answer this from someone who works with SE's and sales reps.

How much do you make now? SE will give you much more money on the upside unless you're a programmer at Google or something or an exec.

SE's cap out at 250-300k (usually, unless you get equtiy). so if you don't think you will reach that in 5-10 years at your current role i'd say its worth the risk.

It's a fairly easy role and you talk to people all day -- it will also give you a shot at sales most likely in the future if that's something you want to do.

Edit: almost all SEs I know also work exclusively from home all over the US. only requirement is being near an airport -- so you could fuck off to whatever city you want whenever

Post: #14

(12-27-2018 11:34 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  I'm working as an engineer in a mid-sized company. Have been there for about a year and am generally pretty happy with my job: Pay is good, coworkers are great and the work is (mostly) interesting. A part from a few minor things, I can't complain. I do mostly technical due diligence related stuff. Very little travel involved and only few client facing tasks.

Out of the blue I received a tempting job offer from a small company I interviewed with about 1.5 years ago. The role is basically B2B high-tech sales/ BD in a pretty niche market. Most of their business is done outside of Europe, i.e. lots of cool travel options. The company itself has been around for over 30 years and has a very solid market position.

Now I'm trying to assess the situation but since I've never been in this spot, it's not easy.

Here are the pros for the job offer:

• About 20% salary increase
• Drastically shorter commute (20 min vs 60-90 min)
• More international travel
• More client facing (manager vs engineer)
  

Here are the cons:

• Way smaller company (30 vs 200 employees)
• Female boss (Frumpy engineering type, late 30s, has a kid)
• Coworkers are unlikely to be as great
  

How would you approach this situation?

If I'm happy where I'm at, I would stick with it till I'm no longer happy where I'm at.

Throw in the female boss and the decision is even easier.

Post: #15

(12-27-2018 12:32 PM)BoiBoi Wrote:  It's a sales engineer and business development job, no commission or quotas.

Sales engineering and business development are two different things.

As an SE, you don't get much commission/bonus, if any, but you have a high base and don't have to worry about prospecting and general sales bullshit.

Business development (vague term) could mean anything from cold calling leads to doing senior level meetings with various people. This should have some commission structure to it generally.

You said no quotas but BD people often have quotas. Something isn't adding up. If you do general sales duties + SE stuff... but only get paid a base salary, you're getting ripped off regardless of a quota existing or not. You need to get a better sense of the specifics duties you will be tasked with.

Quote:I reached out to the guy who had this job for the past 5+ years. He is leaving the company and therefore the position is open.

This didn't doesn't answer anything. Why is he leaving? You want to dig up as much dirt as possible about the current operations. Sales people trying to hire you are great at selling bullshit. Don't be afraid to get up people's asses and demand evidence/proof of things. Nothing more fun than walking into a shitshow because you didn't do your due diligence.

Quote:Well, the pay is better and it's closer to my place...but I agree, the potential downsides are huge. Especially since I like my current boss and get along great with him.

The people aspect is huge and less pay is worth working with people you get along with. Furthermore, is being an SE what you want career path wise? Good SE's have tons of options career wise but you need to make sure it's a lifestyle you want; particularly the traveling and constant talking. Might be fun for a bit but get old after a while. Someone else suggested that if you got a good thing now and can move up, that might be the best route.

All in all, if you want to go the SE route, I'd probably find a better company with better leadership (no woman boss), training, and mentorship. But make sure you want to go that route in the first place; especially since you sound like you got a great thing going minus the commute.

Post: #16

Thanks for the input guys. I've spoken to the dude who left the company. The call was pretty helpful and now I have a clearer picture of what to expect from the position. Furthermore, it helped to juxtapose the pro and cons of leaving and staying put.

The bottom line is that there'll be a cap on how much I'll be able to learn and to achieve in the smaller company since everything is well, small. Smaller projects, smaller business partners, less exposure (e.g. right now the costumers are major investments funds vs. small project developers in the new jobs). This should eventually also translate into less earning potential.
On the other hand, the job does indeed sound interesting. I'm an extrovert and like talking to people. The travel is not that frequent (5-6 international trips/year) and the markets are also cool (Brazil, China, Korea, South Africa, Russia). The commute is a big factor for me. I did the math and right now, I spend about 15 days/year commuting. In the new job this would be less than 4 days.

The female boss is a potential risk, but what I really have to think about are my future career prospects.

(12-27-2018 01:39 PM)Rushmore Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 12:36 PM)BoiBoi Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 12:12 PM)Repo Wrote:  An important question is in 1-3 years from now, will this job help your resume to the point where you can get another 20%+ pay increase by job hopping?

Good question. My current job would probably open more doors for me, if I stick with it.

There we are. That is what counts.

The fact that some company approached you means nothing. For you. They will find someone else, you should stay focussed on your long term career development, with planned milestones etc. Become a key member of your company's "inner circle" and money/promotion will come.

Also think about what "career" means for you - it can be many things (straight upward movement, rotation, specialisation, entrepreneurial )

Tell me more about you and your ambitions, am happy to help/discuss.

I have a good idea on where I could go if I pursue my current career track. If I stick with it, it should translate nicely into a role as a freelance technical advisor/ owner's engineer. Meaning that in 3-5 years I should be able to start my own thing. Of course a lot can happen in the meantime but this was my ambition.

I never really considered going into sales or BD until I started working in my current company. The good sales/ BD guys have so much freedom, it's unreal. Also, they are treated as the company's most important people, since they bring in the money. It's not like the engineers are regarded like second class citizens but there is a visible difference. This made me second guess my current career path, especially since I'm an extrovert and have no issue approaching or talking to people. I'm not sure though, how sales or BD could translate into a freelance gig.

Post: #17

(12-27-2018 12:44 PM)JimBobsCooters Wrote:  Second point to consider of course is whether this offer gives you leverage at your current company. If those pros are what you're seriously seeking then perhaps you can go to your manager now and say "look, I've got an offer that's going to pay me substantially more than you guys are and is a role I'd much rather do, is there any chance of you guys matching it". This depends on basically whether you're a valued member, whether you have leverage, whether those roles exist, etc. It can be a good way to eliminate the cons and still get at least some of the pros. Basically if your pro/con analysis says you'd take the other job then you've got nothing to lose by trying to remove the cons and get the pros anyway and if they say no then you thank them politely and take the other job. Important to make it clear "that you've been approached" for the other job, don't leave them thinking that you're out there looking for jobs (unless you want them to think that for some reason).

Yeah, naturally I've also considered this approach. I am an important part in the machine. If I left right now, the company would have a big problem as I'm the only guy doing my job at the company and my job is vital. They can't go without it. Additionally, it's difficult to find suitable people for my position. They've been unsuccessfully searching for a second guy since last year.

Post: #18

yeah i do sales and as long as deals are happening no one even knows where i am lol

Post: #19

(12-30-2018 09:30 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 12:44 PM)JimBobsCooters Wrote:  Second point to consider of course is whether this offer gives you leverage at your current company. If those pros are what you're seriously seeking then perhaps you can go to your manager now and say "look, I've got an offer that's going to pay me substantially more than you guys are and is a role I'd much rather do, is there any chance of you guys matching it". This depends on basically whether you're a valued member, whether you have leverage, whether those roles exist, etc. It can be a good way to eliminate the cons and still get at least some of the pros. Basically if your pro/con analysis says you'd take the other job then you've got nothing to lose by trying to remove the cons and get the pros anyway and if they say no then you thank them politely and take the other job. Important to make it clear "that you've been approached" for the other job, don't leave them thinking that you're out there looking for jobs (unless you want them to think that for some reason).

Yeah, naturally I've also considered this approach. I am an important part in the machine. If I left right now, the company would have a big problem as I'm the only guy doing my job at the company and my job is vital. They can't go without it. Additionally, it's difficult to find suitable people for my position. They've been unsuccessfully searching for a second guy since last year.

Quick update:

I did just that. Went to my boss, gave him the story and told him that I'd love to stay but +20% more money is difficult to leave on the table. He was cool about it and yesterday I got a new offer from him: ~24% more for the same job. Very nice. Moral of the story: Ask and you shall receive.

Post: #20

(01-12-2019 07:56 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  I did just that. Went to my boss, gave him the story and told him that I'd love to stay but +20% more money is difficult to leave on the table. He was cool about it and yesterday I got a new offer from him: ~24% more for the same job. Very nice. Moral of the story: Ask and you shall receive.

Unfortunately, you'll now be first one out the door when cut backs come knocking.

Post: #21

(01-12-2019 08:02 AM)Bikal Wrote:  

(01-12-2019 07:56 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  I did just that. Went to my boss, gave him the story and told him that I'd love to stay but +20% more money is difficult to leave on the table. He was cool about it and yesterday I got a new offer from him: ~24% more for the same job. Very nice. Moral of the story: Ask and you shall receive.

Unfortunately, you'll now be first one out the door when cut backs come knocking.

You Sir have a great attitude. I bet you are the life of the party, keep it up.

Post: #22

(01-12-2019 08:02 AM)Bikal Wrote:  

(01-12-2019 07:56 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  I did just that. Went to my boss, gave him the story and told him that I'd love to stay but +20% more money is difficult to leave on the table. He was cool about it and yesterday I got a new offer from him: ~24% more for the same job. Very nice. Moral of the story: Ask and you shall receive.

Unfortunately, you'll now be first one out the door when cut backs come knocking.

Only if management sucks. This is completely normal to any half decent manager. Your top employees are always the one who get offers elsewhere. BAU

Post: #23

(01-12-2019 11:18 AM)Repo Wrote:  

(01-12-2019 08:02 AM)Bikal Wrote:  

(01-12-2019 07:56 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  I did just that. Went to my boss, gave him the story and told him that I'd love to stay but +20% more money is difficult to leave on the table. He was cool about it and yesterday I got a new offer from him: ~24% more for the same job. Very nice. Moral of the story: Ask and you shall receive.

Unfortunately, you'll now be first one out the door when cut backs come knocking.

Only if management sucks. This is completely normal to any half decent manager. Your top employees are always the one who get offers elsewhere. BAU

A lot of this compounded by the uncertainty surrounding the rest of the payroll. In the private sector outside of union shops and entry level Walmart/Amazon wage galley... it is hard to know how your salary compares to your coworkers. A 24% increase makes him more costly in his role relative to his previous pay, but it's hard to tell outside of the company's management how it lives him in relation to the rest of the organization.

Post: #24

(01-12-2019 11:56 AM)BBinger Wrote:  In the private sector outside of union shops and entry level Walmart/Amazon wage galley... it is hard to know how your salary compares to your coworkers. A 24% increase makes him more costly in his role relative to his previous pay, but it's hard to tell outside of the company's management how it lives him in relation to the rest of the organization.

That's why its a good idea to be on LinkedIn, so recruiters can find you. They are good sources of information about the market for your skills and what you can expect by jumping.

Saying for 24% is a safe bet in the short term.

Long term I think you grow by seeing other organizations and taking on new challenges.

Post: #25

(01-12-2019 11:56 AM)BBinger Wrote:  

(01-12-2019 11:18 AM)Repo Wrote:  

(01-12-2019 08:02 AM)Bikal Wrote:  

(01-12-2019 07:56 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  I did just that. Went to my boss, gave him the story and told him that I'd love to stay but +20% more money is difficult to leave on the table. He was cool about it and yesterday I got a new offer from him: ~24% more for the same job. Very nice. Moral of the story: Ask and you shall receive.

Unfortunately, you'll now be first one out the door when cut backs come knocking.

Only if management sucks. This is completely normal to any half decent manager. Your top employees are always the one who get offers elsewhere. BAU

A lot of this compounded by the uncertainty surrounding the rest of the payroll. In the private sector outside of union shops and entry level Walmart/Amazon wage galley... it is hard to know how your salary compares to your coworkers. A 24% increase makes him more costly in his role relative to his previous pay, but it's hard to tell outside of the company's management how it lives him in relation to the rest of the organization.

I dont know why you think that. It's very easy nowadays to know how your pay compares to other similar jobs. Information is all over the internet, and by applying for a few similar jobs and talking to HR you can usually get a good feel.

Plus, a company that let's people of the same position go based on salary and not performance is not a place you want to work for anyway, so if this does become a thing their doing him a favor. As he said he expects to move up so this is a hsort term concern anyway.