Post: #1

My family were having Easter lunch when my 92-year-old grand dad asked me for the 59th time why I ended up quitting a specific sport.

I gave some reasons but I also said that a part of it was because I had spent so much time being around people that I couldn't relate to (even though there were a few exceptions) and that even though being around kind of nerdy engineers nowadays isn't optimal, it's definitely been an upgrade from this working class sport I played for many years.

I mean, you'd be looked down on for not having a TV or reading books while going to away games meanwhile you'd have more than one guy believing the moon landing happened in the 17th century (not even kidding).

I said it was it refreshing that I could finally relate a bit more and talk with guys about a bit more things than just sports, fashion, girls and whatever reality show that was popular at the moment.

He snapped at me, said I was a classist, full of myself and a prick for aggressively dividing people like this.
My aunt and cousins werent there but have heard from him that I said this and are apparently disgusted with me now, so in less than 30 seconds I got half of my relatives turned against me.

Feels absurd.
Is it really that controversial to say you'd rather hang out with a bit more educated people just in general?

Post: #2

Your grandfather grew up in a time and place where being working class was the norm and so the working class had more diversity of people.

Then the 1960s happened and everyone who were smart went on to get university education.

Working class people today, are often that because they don't have the ability to do anything else. Not all obviously. I have lots of family that do blue collar work and are smart and capable, but the working class as a whole is not what it used to be.

Post: #3

He's your fucking 92 year old grandfather. If he's a cool old guy then this wouldn't have happened, so I'm guessing he's out of touch, senile, distant from you personally or just an asshole. In any of those cases, just smile and nod when he's around.
If he actually identifies as working class himself, you're the idiot. That is an ingrained identity that he took to heart 75 years ago and you're insulting him?

Post: #4

(04-22-2019 06:22 AM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  92-year-old grand dad asked me for the 59th time

Problem is you never had the making of a varsity athlete:





That's a joke. Seriously though, He has dementia dude. That's why he keeps repeating himself.

Just be nice and enjoy the time he has left. Certainly, don't agitate the guy and just let him say his piece.

Patronize the old man for your buddy Kona. Family first. When they're gone, it hurts. Trust me.

Aloha!

Post: #5

(04-22-2019 06:34 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  Your grandfather grew up in a time and place where being working class was the norm and so the working class had more diversity of people.

Then the 1960s happened and everyone who were smart went on to get university education.

Working class people today, are often that because they don't have the ability to do anything else. Not all obviously. I have lots of family that do blue collar work and are smart and capable, but the working class as a whole is not what it used to be.

Thank you, I think you made a great point that I would agree with.
I should remember that it was a bit different back then.

(04-22-2019 06:37 AM)RawGod Wrote:  If he actually identifies as working class himself, you're the idiot.

He's been a history teacher all of his life and all the friends I know of were working in the field of humanities just like him.

Post: #6

(1) Did your Granddad happen to play the same sport you quit? How about his brother, his father, or his son/s? If so, there's your first reason he took it personally.

(2) Second, if he was real working class, his likely conversation topics in large measures are currently (or for much of his life were) sports, girls, and whatever show is popular at that moment for his demographic.

(3) Don't be so quick to judge family, even if they live what you might regard as a 'simplistic' life. Educated people - including nerdy engineers - are often deeply beta, deeply converged, deeply liberal, and therefore overrated. In their way they are just as obsessed with sports, fashion, girls, and whatever reality show is popular at that moment, it's just their choices in those categories are:
(a) non-physical, i.e. having even less skin in the game than the bullshittery of physical sports;
(b) which fashion virtue-signals most, rather than which fashion makes you look good;
© SJW chicks who bang working class bad boys in preference to, or simultaenously with, their boyfriends, and
(d) politics, the most terrifying reality show of them all.

And therefore they're overrated for conversational topics past a certain point: as a group, they overcomplicate things in order to have a reason for having a job, and they often have a deep disconnect with the real world as a consequence of their long education which kept their hands clean. Eventually all philosophy or higher thought leads back to the red pill, but you'll find precious few "educated" people who will ever admit to that.

This isn't to say that you excuse bitchiness from family. Only to warn you that the grass is always greener on the far side of the fence.

EDIT: If he was a history teacher, he pretty much wasn't working class. Also note, from Nassim Taleb - historians, and by extension history teachers, are people who learn from books. By definition they have no connection to the real world; they also have a similar agency problem to journalists in that they mostly feel they have to impress others. And historians also bear the problem that they focus all their attention on conflict and on models, not on the evidence arising from the silence that actually is most of history's run.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #7

Wouldn't worry too much about it. He's 92 years old. Doubt he understands how far society has degraded in the past 5 years. It's basically a different world.

I'm sure he has some insights that he can share because he came of age before the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s.

Post: #8

Well, the truth is that classes have always existed and always will. To simplify the argument and evidence for this case, its simply human nature. Its usually always lower class people brainwashed by egalitarianism (this is basically an informal core political doctrine in the modern West, e.g. feminism, multiculturalism, socialism/communism etc.) that get upset about the concept of classes or the implication that they're members of an inferior class.

Of course, you're dealing with family and since you're only being infrequently lectured, the best option is to politely nod and fake agreement. This is something i unfortunately find myself having to do with my parents when they lecture me with generic boomer platitudes concerning other topics.

As for being with lower class people, i actually find it refreshing as most of them are slightly naturally more red-pill since they live tougher lives. Of course, i don't hang out with them frequently, so i can absolutely imagine that it can get rather tiring (Not that i'm very upper class anyway).

Post: #9

(04-22-2019 06:53 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  EDIT: If he was a history teacher, he pretty much wasn't working class. Also note, from Nassim Taleb - historians, and by extension history teachers, are people who learn from books. By definition they have no connection to the real world; they also have a similar agency problem to journalists in that they mostly feel they have to impress others. And historians also bear the problem that they focus all their attention on conflict and on models, not on the evidence arising from the silence that actually is most of history's run.

I don't want to derail this thread but this is absolutely correct. The problem about historians not understanding non-conflict processes and things not simple to model is something very few people understand.

When most people look at history, they see a bunch of conflicts and battles, but most of the time whether a person, people, nation or army succeeds immediately or over time, actually comes as a result of processes or actions that are not conflict based but rarely noticed by most observers. This statement is extremely general but i'm basically referring to things like cunning diplomacy/politics, demographics, psychological/cultural/social manipulations and etc.

Post: #10

From your description of this exchange, it sounds like you didn't particularly make it about class. You just said you didn't like the culture, and he decided it was all about drawing a class line. Is that about right?

If so, this is his insecurity talking, not yours. He's 92 and you should be gracious with him, but it sounds more like some variation of crab mentality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

There are lots of great working class people. Some of them are among my best friends. ("I'm not classist, I have a poor friend!") There are also just as many, if not more, people who use working class values as cover for their own laziness and selfishness, and fill with bile when they see evidence that they could have done better with their own lives and that it wasn't "the system" that did it to them.

Even if he's not working class himself, he may be in a left-leaning subculture as a teacher - public school teachers, especially, identify strongly with union labor and like to imagine that they have some kind of solidarity with coal miners, autoworkers, and first responders - that unduly romanticizes it and has a hard time hearing this. I used to fuck an adjunct literature professor who was like this. She'd grown up in the rural Rust Belt, but wasn't really aware that all the working class people she'd met were screened through the filter of "people my father was willing to hire and/or allow into the house" - she was well-off enough to never really get a glimpse of the underbelly of that demographic and would get upset at the very idea that somebody's family might simply be struggling because their breadwinner is an ineffectual scumbag who doesn't give a shit about anything, rather than because Bernie lost the primary.

Post: #11

(04-22-2019 06:53 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  (3) Don't be so quick to judge family, even if they live what you might regard as a 'simplistic' life. Educated people - including nerdy engineers - are often deeply beta, deeply converged, deeply liberal, and therefore overrated. In their way they are just as obsessed with sports, fashion, girls, and whatever reality show is popular at that moment, it's just their choices in those categories are:
(a) non-physical, i.e. having even less skin in the game than the bullshittery of physical sports;
(b) which fashion virtue-signals most, rather than which fashion makes you look good;
© SJW chicks who bang working class bad boys in preference to, or simultaenously with, their boyfriends, and
(d) politics, the most terrifying reality show of them all.

And therefore they're overrated for conversational topics past a certain point: as a group, they overcomplicate things in order to have a reason for having a job, and they often have a deep disconnect with the real world as a consequence of their long education which kept their hands clean. Eventually all philosophy or higher thought leads back to the red pill, but you'll find precious few "educated" people who will ever admit to that.

This isn't to say that you excuse bitchiness from family. Only to warn you that the grass is always greener on the far side of the fence.

This is very true.

I've always found the higher IQ working class very insightful. Much more than the majority of the university educated class (ex. Jordan Peterson types).

I suspect since they avoided college and work in a male dominated environment that they have less of an "SJW filter" on their thinking. That, combined with their higher IQ, allows for some very good insight into things. It likely explains the push for high IQ men to work office jobs since the 1960's.

My grandfather (never met him, but I've heard stories) and my ex-gf's dad both fall/fell into that working class category.

Admittedly, most of the working class don't fall into that category as the OP stated. But there are still some.

Post: #12

(04-22-2019 06:22 AM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  ...
He snapped at me, said I was a classist, full of myself and a prick for aggressively dividing people like this.
My aunt and cousins werent there but have heard from him that I said this and are apparently disgusted with me now, so in less than 30 seconds I got half of my relatives turned against me.
...

This part tells me that there's more to this story than "my grandfather is angry at me for quitting the synchronized swimming team".

Post: #13

(04-22-2019 08:37 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  This part tells me that there's more to this story than "my grandfather is angry at me for quitting the synchronized swimming team".

There really isn't and I have had enough of them anyway.

But if you insist on bore you with details...

My aunt is a leftist who cheated on the father of her children and went on to marry another man. Now they have an afghani refugee living with them and she often make posts about it on Facebook for virtue signaling. My oldest cousin is fat and hipster, the middle one is a heavily obese woman and the youngest one a feminist. All left leaning and they already disliked me for my views on immigration and thinks I'm a racist. That should tell you enough,

I've been the only grandkid who has shown him attention the last few years and this weekend I was cooking food, making cappucinos, driving him to places, helping him out with his tablet and all he does is trying to bring me down for not having read some irrelevant novel or poem from the 19th century.

Example

Him: "Have you read Stikhi o prekrasnoi Dame novel by Alexander Blok? No...? Wow, that's amazing. You can't have any sense of the history then.

By the way, I made some great poems inspired by him that have really deep meaning. They're laying around somewhere in my house, someone must take care of those when I die."

Me: "No, wait, is that the russian guy? What a coincidence! I actually have read that one in high school."

Him. "Oh, okay then. Can you name a few quotes from Blok?"

Me: "I do remember a few from high school. My spirit is old; and some black lot awaits me on my long road. Think it was something like Мой дух стар; и какая-то черная партия in russian."

Him: "Hm, I'm pretty sure you got that last one wrong. Listen, you need to study guys like him more. How are you ever going to make sense of the world otherwise? Come on, you got a lot of catch up to do."

Post: #14

^^^^

If that conversation is verbatim: congratulations, you've proved that even 92 year old gammas exist.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #15

Gammas only get less able to fuck with you as they get older, they don't suddenly get nicer.

Post: #16

Look, you've got a guy there that's 92 years old.

Tell him you're more interested in his life than a book.

Any time you're with the guy ask him to tell you a story of something that happened to him and actually listen. Bring an audio recorder. Don't use your phone. When those old timers are gone you're going to bloody regret not having an account of their life. The shit my grandmother went through, I will never forgive myself for not bugging her into letting me record it.

It doesn't matter if he's left wing or right wing. Just get him to tell you his stories and tell him it's the only thing that's important to you when you spend time together. As much as I shitpost about politics I can't imagine wasting my last remaining years with the patriarch of my family getting into arguments about nonsense.

Post: #17

(04-22-2019 09:18 AM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  

(04-22-2019 08:37 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  This part tells me that there's more to this story than "my grandfather is angry at me for quitting the synchronized swimming team".

There really isn't and I have had enough of them anyway.

But if you insist on bore you with details...

My aunt is a leftist who cheated on the father of her children and went on to marry another man. Now they have an afghani refugee living with them and she often make posts about it on Facebook for virtue signaling. My oldest cousin is fat and hipster, the middle one is a heavily obese woman and the youngest one a feminist. All left leaning and they already disliked me for my views on immigration and thinks I'm a racist. That should tell you enough,

I've been the only grandkid who has shown him attention the last few years and this weekend I was cooking food, making cappucinos, driving him to places, helping him out with his tablet and all he does is trying to bring me down for not having read some irrelevant novel or poem from the 19th century.

Example

Him: "Have you read Stikhi o prekrasnoi Dame novel by Alexander Blok? No...? Wow, that's amazing. You can't have any sense of the history then.

By the way, I made some great poems inspired by him that have really deep meaning. They're laying around somewhere in my house, someone must take care of those when I die."

Me: "No, wait, is that the russian guy? What a coincidence! I actually have read that one in high school."

Him. "Oh, okay then. Can you name a few quotes from Blok?"

Me: "I do remember a few from high school. My spirit is old; and some black lot awaits me on my long road. Think it was something like Мой дух стар; и какая-то черная партия in russian."

Him: "Hm, I'm pretty sure you got that last one wrong. Listen, you need to study guys like him more. How are you ever going to make sense of the world otherwise? Come on, you got a lot of catch up to do."

This makes a lot more sense.

I unfortunately have similar problems in terms of having hostile elements and members of my family in conflict with me and my own immediate group.

My sister is a solid believer in all the generic social, environmental and cultural leftist talking points like feminism, multi-culturalism, climate change and etc. I literally have to avoid talking with her despite living in the same space in order to not get into any intense verbal arguments. My uncle and grandma (from my dad's side) are involved in a feud and tense relationship with my parents that's a product of events that have occurred and interacted in a complex way before my birth, with some from even before the 20th century that i only vaguely know about through recounts. My grandma is even going so far as to sabotage my dad inheriting any wealth from his grandpa by channeling it to my uncle, which is by extension sabotaging my future inheritance.

In your situation, it sounds like most of that branch of your family seem like mediocre leftists/shit-libs. Your aunt seems to be of an especially vicious breed though (no offense), as she and her husband are either genuine blind believers in leftist talking points of "refugees welcome" or she's just inter-racially cuckolding the guy (no offense). I suppose both or none could be true, but i digress.

Still, it is extremely easy to be hostile and angry at these people and you have good reason to be, but you must remember that these people as family are capable of harming you in many ways that are arguably even worse than random strangers or state actors. This is why i do my absolute best to avoid conflict and ideally keep a distance from them, or if i must interact with them, simply avoid careless statements regardless of their behavior.

As for Alexander Block, while i haven't even read any of his works, its clear by taking a brief look at a description of him and his works, he is a naive and weak liberal coward of the late Russian Monarchy. He is a clear personification of Kerensky as a literary and cultural representation of his politics, and its underlying beliefs. These cowards arguably did more than the Bolsheviks/Communists to ruin the Russian Empire and by extension, made the disasters of 20th century Russia and the world possible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Blok

Not to derail the topic, but the content people read or consume speaks strongly of their nature, character, beliefs and etc as a person.

Post: #18

(04-22-2019 09:58 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Look, you've got a guy there that's 92 years old.

Tell him you're more interested in his life than a book.

Any time you're with the guy ask him to tell you a story of something that happened to him and actually listen. Bring an audio recorder. Don't use your phone. When those old timers are gone you're going to bloody regret not having an account of their life. The shit my grandmother went through, I will never forgive myself for not bugging her into letting me record it.

It doesn't matter if he's left wing or right wing. Just get him to tell you his stories and tell him it's the only thing that's important to you when you spend time together. As much as I shitpost about politics I can't imagine wasting my last remaining years with the patriarch of my family getting into arguments about nonsense.

This is absolutely true. Regardless of the flaws of people in their life, there are certain perspectives and deeds that you may not know about but is still worth learning from them.

I personally wish i had the chance to do such a thing as unfortunately, all my ancestors from 2 generations and further, besides my grandma, all died before i was even born.

I know that i would envy an opportunity to record and listen to their life accounts and everything which would come from simply interacting with them.

Post: #19

(04-22-2019 09:18 AM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  

(04-22-2019 08:37 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  This part tells me that there's more to this story than "my grandfather is angry at me for quitting the synchronized swimming team".

There really isn't and I have had enough of them anyway.

But if you insist on bore you with details...

My aunt is a leftist who cheated on the father of her children and went on to marry another man. Now they have an afghani refugee living with them and she often make posts about it on Facebook for virtue signaling. My oldest cousin is fat and hipster, the middle one is a heavily obese woman and the youngest one a feminist.All left leaning and they already disliked me for my views on immigration and thinks I'm a racist. That should tell you enough,

I've been the only grandkid who has shown him attention the last few years and this weekend I was cooking food, making cappucinos, driving him to places, helping him out with his tablet and all he does is trying to bring me down for not having read some irrelevant novel or poem from the 19th century.

Example

Him: "Have you read Stikhi o prekrasnoi Dame novel by Alexander Blok? No...? Wow, that's amazing. You can't have any sense of the history then.

By the way, I made some great poems inspired by him that have really deep meaning. They're laying around somewhere in my house, someone must take care of those when I die."

Me: "No, wait, is that the russian guy? What a coincidence! I actually have read that one in high school."

Him. "Oh, okay then. Can you name a few quotes from Blok?"

Me: "I do remember a few from high school. My spirit is old; and some black lot awaits me on my long road. Think it was something like Мой дух стар; и какая-то черная партия in russian."

Him: "Hm, I'm pretty sure you got that last one wrong. Listen, you need to study guys like him more. How are you ever going to make sense of the world otherwise? Come on, you got a lot of catch up to do."

Your relatives that he 'turned against you' sound like a bunch of winners...

He did you a favor.

Post: #20

Be prepared for him to try and brush you off several times. Most people that old don't like to tell their stories if they're not 100% certain that the person they're telling them to is really that interested.

And just for perspective, when your grandfather was ten years old WW2 hadn't even started yet and Stalin was purging nearly a million "class enemies". Trotskyites has been accused of plotting to overthrow Stalin. Spain was wracked in a brutal civil war. The Golden Gate bridge opens and the Hindenburg crashes and burns. The Second Sino-Japanese war takes place.

By the time he's 20 World War 2 has come and gone and the world is an entirely different place.

I don't know if he was born in Russia or what but simply hearing word-of-mouth stories about mundane shit like living 5 to a room and reading by candlelight is enough to change your view of the world. Ask him what his earliest memory is to get the ball rolling. Ask him about the first girl he ever dated. The first car he ever owned. The first fight he ever got into. What did he used to love? Fishing? Chess? What was his greatest victory? Has he ever ended up in jail, even for just a night? Did he gamble? Get drunk? Visit other countries? How did he travel back then? Were there neighborhood beefs when he was a kid? Was he ever part of a gang? What was his favourite food growing up?

There's endless stuff you can ask him about. Once you get him talking let him keep going and don't interrupt until he starts talking tangential bullshit then push him back to "I want to hear about you", and when you have to go you tell him "we're up to (x) and I'm going to remind you next time I see you to tell me the rest of the story" then when you see him you don't stop bugging him until he keeps going.

Post: #21

Something here is missing. I can't put my finger on it but I suspect you're withholding something.

Post: #22

(04-22-2019 11:31 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Be prepared for him to try and brush you off several times. Most people that old don't like to tell their stories if they're not 100% certain that the person they're telling them to is really that interested.

And just for perspective, when your grandfather was ten years old WW2 hadn't even started yet and Stalin was purging nearly a million "class enemies". Trotskyites has been accused of plotting to overthrow Stalin. Spain was wracked in a brutal civil war. The Golden Gate bridge opens and the Hindenburg crashes and burns. The Second Sino-Japanese war takes place.

Yes, you said it great in the other post and reminded me that it's important to listen to older people, ask them questions and let them speak and that it's possible to learn a lot from their stories.

It's something I've heard before on a podcast a few years ago and have tried to apply more. I have had a lot of interesting discussions with him like this while he has complained that the other grandkids don't show an interest.

That's basically why I have spent so much time with him but he often (while he drinks alcohol I guess) tries to direct the topic of conversation to politics and shit where he knows we don't agree and that's when he becomes disrespectful. My other grand dad is dead now but he was always there for me, showing appreciation if I did something nice and never acted like an asshole.

(04-22-2019 11:54 AM)Fortis Wrote:  Something here is missing. I can't put my finger on it but I suspect you're withholding something.

I don't know what that would be, maybe that he hasn't really been a good dad or grand dad?
His ego seems to exaggerates while he drinks, which he does every day. I mean he has had similair incidents with my sister, my brother and his son-in-law (my dad) because we don't share many of his opinions about politics and shit. I spend the most time with him so I get into most trouble.

I have had a few incidents like this before with him and he has always made a big point that I shouldn't think too much of myself. The law of jante is very big in our culture and I suppose there are a lot of people with insecurities around this topic of class. Like Jetset said, first I just saw it as a difference in culture until my grand dad mentioned class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

Post: #23

(04-22-2019 11:54 AM)Fortis Wrote:  Something here is missing. I can't put my finger on it but I suspect you're withholding something.

True, I like the OP but there is usually something else when everyone is turning against you. Maybe it's just that being redpill brings you enemies but maybe he was somehow tactless and an asshole.
Source: a guy that has flawed relatives but is also an tactless asshole sometimes

Edit: Ok, I concede your family is extremely bluepill and drank all the Kool-Aid, but I still think you should just smile and nod, at least when they're not directly attacking you.
My family brewed a feud from the last election, the kind of shit that separates mother and children, but they still think I'm a dummy that knows nothing about politics
If they knew what I think I'd be branded a nazi and suffer severe retaliation, but my behavior policy saved me a lot of stress I tell ya.

Post: #24

By the way.

We actually got into an interesting conversation about abortions the other day. I told him I'm conservative about it and that it's degenerate how people could advocate afterbirth abortions. I mentioned this poor nurse in our city who was under investigation for just trying to save the lives of late aborted infants.

Then he told me something he has never mentioned before. He said he got some chick pregnant (in the late 40's I guess) as he had just started university. He was ready to take the responsibilty but left it up to the woman to decide "over her own body". They went to a doctor and were refused to have an abortion. So the woman solved it herself and he told me that if I was shocked by the story about the nurse in our city, then I would get terrified if he told me how she went about getting rid of that infant, it was horrible apparently and she was unable to ever have kids after that.

Same thing happened with my (now dead) grand mum the first time. He said her vaginal opening was too small or some shit at the time so apparently my grand mum aborted the child in a similair way that I would be horrified by. His view that it must be up to the woman to decide since all men do is to release some sperm.

Then he obviously went on to talk good about metoo and feminism.

Post: #25

(04-22-2019 12:36 PM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  I have had a few incidents like this before with him and he has always made a big point that I shouldn't think too much of myself. The law of jante is very big in our culture and I suppose there are a lot of people with insecurities around this topic of class. Like Jetset said, first I just saw it as a difference in culture until my grand dad mentioned class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

I had missed the cultural difference - what I'd said about schoolteachers and the working class is something I only personally know to be true in the United States - but Jante Law explains a few things.

Honestly? Maybe he just wants to be taken seriously and is turning to gossip and recriminations to make himself heard. Being old is hard and frustrating. You mentioned he slips his poetry into conversation, and to me it sounds as if he wants to know that someone will still think about his thoughts when he's gone. It may be that rallying the family about your "class warfare" is an attempt to make sure everybody remembers his ideas.

Leonard may be on to something that engaging with him as an elder and letting him share his life with you will right the ship.