Post: #1

This is an open-ended question. Marriage looks less and less desirable. The benefit of marriage to men is the (supposed) opportunity for regular sex. The benefit for women is she gets a man that will be with her, her whole life. Security, protection, stability, and other things women need.

It is a bad deal now. That much is clear. Marriages are decreasing across the whole west, and divorces are really bad at this point. Additional issues present themselves. One, legally tying up the man. Two, the woman getting half his shit if he divorces. Three, the fact that the woman actually in most cases gets more out of the marriage than the man. Four, the fact that since most women are the ones to initiate the divorce, she has a tremendous amount of leverage against the man once they are legally married.

I believe there is plenty of utility in marriage, given my conservative background. But things change. I'm still years away from a potential marriage, but I'm thinking there's a better option: not marrying, but having what amounts to a common law marriage, or a situation where you have a long term partner.

The benefit of such an arrangement is immediately clear: it is cheaper, you have more leverage, and the woman can leave at any point without damaging you as much as she could in a sanctioned marriage. Now granted, I'm conservative and see the importance of marriage. But if marriage is a thing sanctioned before God (and not the state--that's a recent innovation in many senses) why should I involve the state in a long term sexual relationship (a third partner...).

The most obvious concern I have is the effect it could have on kids. But then again if it's a fruitful relationship, there will be no "divorce" so to speak.

Thoughts?

I used to be really positive on marriage, but if it is bound to fail, statically speaking, it makes sense to me to look at alternative arrangements.

Post: #2

I think that’s exactly the plan.

What I would do these days is have a Church wedding and leave the civil wedding alone, just designate them as a dependent and give them full PoA.

In strong religious communities divorce is still regarded with a massive social stigma.

Post: #3

I generally don't think marriage is worth it, but the main benefits I see are tax benefits, and if 1 person dies the other person gets their stuff. My aunt was with a man for many years, and when the man died she got nothing of his and her partner's children screwed her over. They were together for many years and had a great relationship, so it's pretty unfortunate she got nothing. If they were married she'd have inherited his house and money.

Post: #4

(05-03-2019 06:37 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  I think that’s exactly the plan.

What I would do these days is have a Church wedding and leave the civil wedding alone, just designate them as a dependent and give them full PoA.

In strong religious communities divorce is still regarded with a massive social stigma.

Agreed, but what I would add is how widely accepted even divorce is becoming even in evangelical/ born again communities. Now in mainline protestant denominations, it is completely accepted.

(05-03-2019 06:43 PM)travolta Wrote:  I generally don't think marriage is worth it, but the main benefits I see are tax benefits, and if 1 person dies the other person gets their stuff. My aunt was with a man for many years, and when the man died she got nothing of his and her partner's children screwed her over. They were together for many years and had a great relationship, so it's pretty unfortunate she got nothing. If they were married she'd have inherited his house and money.

Are the tax benefits really that much? As far as dying, you're supposed to have a will regardless otherwise your stuff goes through a really long probate period. To me it seems like a basic thing to have a will and power of attorney, all that.

Post: #5

One question a man should ask himself.

What does the girl in question care for the most - the singular wedding day (fantasy), the overall marriage or being married to you specifically...?

If all she really cares about is the princess day (wedding) in this highly superficial & vacuous age. Do not put a ring on it.

Post: #6

(05-03-2019 07:00 PM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  One question a man should ask himself.

What does the girl in question care for the most - the singular wedding day (fantasy), the overall marriage or being married to you specifically...?

If all she really cares about is the princess day (wedding) in this highly superficial & vacuous age. Do not put a ring on it.

Can we talk about how big marriages and engagements have gotten on social media? Long term couples photos, engagement photos, marriage photos, baby announcement photos (all professionally done). I'm thinking the wedding industry is getting absolutely huge at this point. We may be talking about wedding costs increasing year on year in a manner similar to college costs, medical care costs, insurance premiums. I think modern weddings are probably much bigger in scope and cost than they used to be, but at this point it is just a hunch that I have. Endless validation possible from social media. Easy validation.

Wedding rings. Also a huge scam. Why is a diamond necessary...? It's not. That was something marketers came up with pre-WW2. 3 months salary, or whatever the rule is? Bullshit. Rules and more rules. And community norms that make no sense.

I have no problem with huge weddings if you're from a traditional culture and, or, the relationship is going to be a lifetime one. You involve the family and it is a moment of celebration. But there is a huge difference between that and the attention getting exercise that most modern weddings are.

Post: #7

Freshly divorced here (last week). I had a prenup and still spent $20k and 7 months. Not sure I’d do it again here.

Ideally, I’d like to find a woman that would be OK with raising a family outside of the bounds of matrimony. Highly unlikely, though.

I’d like a child but I don’t necessarily want the (American) wife.

Options:
-head abroad to EE or LatAm for more traditional women. Unknown divorce laws being an obvious risk.
-acquire more wealth and head to Russia for surrogacy. For $80k you can do surrogacy as a single guy in Russia. With enough wealth you can hire the appropriate care. No maternal presence being the risk here.

Post: #8

(05-03-2019 08:26 PM)Dilated Wrote:  Freshly divorced here (last week). I had a prenup and still spent $20k and 7 months. Not sure I’d do it again here.

Ideally, I’d like to find a woman that would be OK with raising a family outside of the bounds of matrimony. Highly unlikely, though.

I’d like a child but I don’t necessarily want the (American) wife.

Options:
-head abroad to EE or LatAm for more traditional women. Unknown divorce laws being an obvious risk.
-acquire more wealth and head to Russia for surrogacy. For $80k you can do surrogacy as a single guy in Russia. With enough wealth you can hire the appropriate care. No maternal presence being the risk here.

Were you married in 20's or was it later? And how long?

I hear prenups don't do much in terms of preventing determined divorce lawyers and feminist judges from draining your bank account.

Maybe what happens is you enter an LTR and she gets pregnant. That or, you have a conversation with her about wanting kids pretty quickly and say the wedding can happen later. i don't know though...

Would you stay abroad or come back, that's the problem... The system is is stacked against you.

Why surrogacy though? Isn't it just better to vet a good girl in Russia, Ukraine, etc?

I'm sure russia is a good place for the search tho.

Post: #9

(05-03-2019 08:26 PM)Dilated Wrote:  Freshly divorced here (last week). I had a prenup and still spent $20k and 7 months. Not sure I’d do it again here.

Ideally, I’d like to find a woman that would be OK with raising a family outside of the bounds of matrimony. Highly unlikely, though.

I’d like a child but I don’t necessarily want the (American) wife.

Options:
-head abroad to EE or LatAm for more traditional women. Unknown divorce laws being an obvious risk.
-acquire more wealth and head to Russia for surrogacy. For $80k you can do surrogacy as a single guy in Russia. With enough wealth you can hire the appropriate care. No maternal presence being the risk here.

I hope nobody would even consider this disgusting option even if it were free. It embodies the same reckless disregard for the natural order (or if you'd prefer, gods will) that sodomites and barren old cat ladies have.

It's nauseating enough hearing "I'd like to have children someday, but I just haven't found the right man yet" from 35+ women, it's even worse coming from supposedly red-pill men.

Post: #10

(05-03-2019 06:57 PM)AOCs Missing Boyfriend Wrote:  

(05-03-2019 06:37 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  I think that’s exactly the plan.

What I would do these days is have a Church wedding and leave the civil wedding alone, just designate them as a dependent and give them full PoA.

In strong religious communities divorce is still regarded with a massive social stigma.

Agreed, but what I would add is how widely accepted even divorce is becoming even in evangelical/ born again communities. Now in mainline protestant denominations, it is completely accepted.

Protestantism can not be considered an equivalent to Orthodox religions, because protestantism holds subjective morality to be the highest good. "Right" is merely a product of the individual conscience.


In Orthodox religious communities divorce is still strongly frowned upon. Catholics who attend mass regularly, did not sleep together before being married, and who do not use contraception have a divorce rate of approximately 2%.

Post: #11

(05-03-2019 08:41 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(05-03-2019 06:57 PM)AOCs Missing Boyfriend Wrote:  

(05-03-2019 06:37 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  I think that’s exactly the plan.

What I would do these days is have a Church wedding and leave the civil wedding alone, just designate them as a dependent and give them full PoA.

In strong religious communities divorce is still regarded with a massive social stigma.

Agreed, but what I would add is how widely accepted even divorce is becoming even in evangelical/ born again communities. Now in mainline protestant denominations, it is completely accepted.

Protestantism can not be considered an equivalent to Orthodox religions, because protestantism holds subjective morality to be the highest good. "Right" is merely a product of the individual conscience.


In Orthodox religious communities divorce is still strongly frowned upon. Catholics who attend mass regularly, did not sleep together before being married, and who do not use contraception have a divorce rate of approximately 2%.

Completely aware of that fact man, as someone who occasionally attends Orthodox services. But it's just a blip on the radar here in the West. Now, granted, there are large orthodox communities in larger cities and the northeast. In some ways the orthodox faith is more conservative than the catholics even.

I was just talking about how more conservative portions of protestants (such as born agains and evangelicals) are taking a more a more lax attitude towards divorce.

Post: #12

Traditional Weddings are for the Young:
To me large weddings are for relatively young couples, and should be thrown primarily by the parents. They were large historically because they were family events, and people had large families. Also, long time friends and business associates of parents were a big part. As a guy in his late 30s, I would find it embarrassing to have a large wedding, especially if the girl is over 30 and has lived with some other dude. It just feels false.

Alternatives to Marriage
I grew up in a nuclear family and would want the same. It's hard to imagine giving your son or daughter less than you received, and those from broken homes often have the same sentiment, wanting to give something their parents couldn't do.

That said, one thought that crosses my mind is that with so many of these girls, theres' a good chance you're getting divorced anyway. Why not skip the wedding, skip the alimony, skip the BS marriage and just get her pregnant:

Pro 1: If you do decide to marry her up, you know she's fertile and has already done the hard work of giving birth to at least a kid

Pro 2: You maintain the leverage if the chick wants to get hitched

Pro 3: You maintain the leverage because the chick has to stay attractive to keep you interested.

Pro 4: If she doesn't want to keep having babies, you can get another chick pregnant.

Pro 5: Who wants to wait to have a kid, get er' done

Pro 6: Keep your freedom, avoid the marriage planning deadweight loss of life.
-- One friend told me his wedding costed him 6 months of life. 6 months of his life planning guest list, talking about invitations, chicken or fish, photos,etc. All this plus throw in all the $$ for wedding and honeymoon with a chick you're already banging

Pro 7: Risk of divorce eating up your life.
-- When a guy reaches late 30s, when I see guys get divorced its at least 5 years out of your life. 2 years minimum of the marriage falling apart, 1 year of separation and total pain finding out shes banging some other dude, then 2 more years trying to rebuild your life and redefine yourself, get your value back and into the swing of dating.

Con1: She can use the kid as leverage if she knows you want to spend time with them. Single moms can be incredibly superficial. (Mitigation: A married woman can do this too, with threat of divorce)

Con2: You will be paying child support.
(Mitigation: If she is in Latam or East Europe this might not be too much, you might be able to just keep it informal).

Con 3: I am sure there are tons of ways this can all go wrong, but marriages go wrong 60% of the time these days, and the functioning marriages often have a blue pill wimp with a fat wife. God bless them if they are happy.

I accept that these are some cold ass statements for some of us who want to be a proper Father, but one red pill I acknowledge is that it is hard to be a proper father without a proper woman. If you are to marry, you better be super sure, then all your family is sure, and your friends tell her constantly shes wife material. If not, make her earn it.

Post: #13

I agree NoMoreTO.

I also want a nuclear family, can't see it any other way unless I get divorce raped. I could not wish that on even my worse enemy's kids.

As far as the huge costs of wedding, diverting the cash that would be spent to a kids fund, house, etc, would be a far more prudent use of money. Given the ridiculously high costs of family and house payments these days given stagnant wage growth. I agree with your points. The divorce period also has to be a huge waste of time, and highly acrimonious to boot. Literally all sorts of productivity lost. And feeling like absolute shit, because in some way this situation could have been avoided.

The kids will always be used as leverage unless the woman has the kid's interest in mind. In which case, she never would have split with you...

Post: #14

Laws are totally against Men in Western countries. I know in most SEA countries, whatever you own before the marriage you keep. Child support is capped to a very small amount. A man is allowed to discipline his woman physically if she steps out of line as well as the children. This is why women and children are well behave over here just like in the good old days in Western countries before discipline was classed as a crime.

The only bad thing is that your Western country can override these laws if you marriage. If she has enough money she can take you to court in your own country hence your screwed. Last I checked, 80% of suicides are by men where 2-3/5 are due to going through the divorce courts.

http://www.australianmensrights.com/Men_...V2000.aspx

I'm planning to settle in a SEA country and have a girlfriend here and kids. The whole marriage thing isn't worth it anymore due to Western laws not allowing men to play the provider game hence a man needs to compete with the State. Men have zero rights in a relationship in the West. She can claim that he hit her with no evidence and he would have to leave his home that he bought and be lucky to see his kids again. If he were to do the same thing, the cops won't remove her and give her a slap on the wrist instead.

She wins the lotto (https://thelott.com/set-for-life/how-to-play) if she divorces him. She gets the house, his money and possessions where he has to pay for her life for the next 16 years until the kids grown up. You see so many White women repeating this pattern hence 2,3,4 men paying of her life even if she remarries where Western countries class this as acceptable today.

My other point is Western women aren't women anymore. Their souls have been seriously poisoned by Feminism which is mainstream in the West promoting hate to men 24/7. Just wait until you fight (regularly) and you will see all the Feminism poison come out! It's NEVER that bad when I fight (rarely) with any of my Eastern women!

All the valves men and women learn today in Western countries are designed to cause divorce!! If you want to seriously have a family, I would suggest you move to an Eastern country like myself. A man can lose his life too easily in the West if he marries and has kids!

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Post: #15

(05-03-2019 10:01 PM)Lovinglife Wrote:  Laws are totally against Men in Western countries. I know in most SEA countries, whatever you own before the marriage you keep. Child support is capped to a very small amount.

The only bad thing is that your Western country can override these laws if you marriage. If she has enough money she can take you to court in your own country hence your screwed.

I'm planning to settle in a SEA country and have a girlfriend here and kids. The whole marriage thing isn't worth it anymore due to Western laws not allowing men to play the provider game hence a man needs to compete with the State. Men have zero rights in a relationship in the West. She can claim that he hit her with no evidence and he would have to leave his home that he bought and be lucky to see his kids again. If he were to do the same thing, the cops won't remove her and give her a slap on the wrist.

My other point is Western women aren't women anymore. Their souls have been seriously poisoned by Feminism which is mainstream in the West promoting hate to men 24/7. Just wait until you fight and you will see all the Feminism poison come out! It's NEVER that bad when I fight with one of my Eastern women!

All the valves men and women learn today in a Western societies are designed to cause divorce!!

Yeah, agree most other countries have way more reasonable child support situations.

Men competing with the state has made marriage a losing game.

Not to mention many aspects of this domestic violence stuff, which I think went too far.

Feminism neuters both men and women and forces almost everyone to depend on government.

The asian women are a good choice, as long as not too americanized!

Post: #16

Women do not want marriage in general to begin with. The only way any woman will not marry is a) she is way below your league b) she is so attracted you that she is willing to bring bastards into this world. Any women outside of these two categories will require legal marriage. Essentially, they will require you to sacrifice yourself, which means that they will potentially be taken care of if the marriage were to fail. That is the whole risk. Most men would rather have the latter option, even if it means they will get screwed over. Unless you do the Leonard option. Leave the country if she leaves you with your children...

Post: #17

An alternative to marriage just enables shitty behavior on both sides.

Post: #18

My ex and I discussed the engagement ring; I told her upfront that I'm not paying for a controlled-market deBeers blood diamond, and she was fine with that. I was planning to get her one with a ruby on it, because the red would set off her skin.

Even then, the rings are vastly over priced. I completely fail to understand why I can buy a sterling silver ring for $20, but an identical ring made of gold costs thousands - there isn't that much gold in it. Never ran into a jewellery store employee who could explain it to me; they're just there to sell junk to suckers. Pretty sure the same thing would happen to me if I ever walked into a car dealership looking for a new car, and asked them to explain why an SUV was called an Armada - is it a flotilla of ships?

Consumerism, man. If I meet another girl, I'll likely look in to independent jewellers to see if they can make something for a reasonable price.

Post: #19

Getting an engagement ring and a wedding ring may sound nice but as I get older it comes off as pointless. Just go for the wedding ring point blank. Saves money too.

Post: #20

(05-03-2019 08:41 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(05-03-2019 06:57 PM)AOCs Missing Boyfriend Wrote:  

(05-03-2019 06:37 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  I think that’s exactly the plan.

What I would do these days is have a Church wedding and leave the civil wedding alone, just designate them as a dependent and give them full PoA.

In strong religious communities divorce is still regarded with a massive social stigma.

Agreed, but what I would add is how widely accepted even divorce is becoming even in evangelical/ born again communities. Now in mainline protestant denominations, it is completely accepted.

Protestantism can not be considered an equivalent to Orthodox religions, because protestantism holds subjective morality to be the highest good. "Right" is merely a product of the individual conscience.


In Orthodox religious communities divorce is still strongly frowned upon. Catholics who attend mass regularly, did not sleep together before being married, and who do not use contraception have a divorce rate of approximately 2%.

I've been residing here in Orthodox Bulgaria for a number of years, the divorce rate is around 40%, very close to the EU average. And that's despite the lowest average incomes in the EU and - from what I've been told - women generally not having quite the same legal financial benefits from divorce as in the west.
Fed up with the husband or found a better replacement? Divorce.

Eastern Europe might still retain a bit more of it's traditional advantages in terms of gender roles - and religion here in Bulgaria seems to play some kind of part in many people's lives (many women I've met here go to church fairly regularly) - but it seems to make little practical difference when it comes to maintaining a marriage or other long term relationships (many live together and have kids together without getting married).

Post: #21

(05-04-2019 12:07 PM)Aurini Wrote:  My ex and I discussed the engagement ring; I told her upfront that I'm not paying for a controlled-market deBeers blood diamond, and she was fine with that. I was planning to get her one with a ruby on it, because the red would set off her skin.

Even then, the rings are vastly over priced. I completely fail to understand why I can buy a sterling silver ring for $20, but an identical ring made of gold costs thousands - there isn't that much gold in it. Never ran into a jewellery store employee who could explain it to me; they're just there to sell junk to suckers. Pretty sure the same thing would happen to me if I ever walked into a car dealership looking for a new car, and asked them to explain why an SUV was called an Armada - is it a flotilla of ships?

Consumerism, man. If I meet another girl, I'll likely look in to independent jewellers to see if they can make something for a reasonable price.

(05-04-2019 12:10 PM)partyfowl Wrote:  Getting an engagement ring and a wedding ring may sound nice but as I get older it comes off as pointless. Just go for the wedding ring point blank. Saves money too.

Most princess day elements ultimately have no inherent meaning. "Something borrowed, something blue". Throwing the bouquet. Throwing rice etc.
As for rings. The best part is when the chick turns her nose up at manufactured diamonds.
Cause a natural carbon rock is somehow more worthwhile than a manufactured, yet shinier carbon rock...

Post: #22

One girl actually told me one time that the price of the ring shows a man's level of commitment. I tried hard not to laugh obviously.

Post: #23

(05-04-2019 06:10 PM)Conquistador Wrote:  One girl actually told me one time that the price of the ring shows a man's level of commitment. I tried hard not to laugh obviously.

What was that about matters being superficial & vacuous?
If every chick is a "special princess", then that is the default setting & by extension, that means that no one is a special princess...

Post: #24

Lol. I've actually trolled women with that same line. 'If all you guys are special, then doesn't that mean that none of you are.' They look at me with the most confused, confounded look on their faces. When you realize how most women think, you thank your lucky stars that you were born a man.

Post: #25

There are upsides and downsides to every path.

1. Marriage and family path. Pros-Fitting into mainstream society, especially after age 30. Cons-Divorce law

2. Spinning plates and/or LTR's of 1-3 years in length. Pros-Variety. Cons-Probably dependent on the situation.

3. No marriage, LTR of 3+ years, and kids: Massive con of instability

4. No marriage, LTR of 3+ years, no kids: Pros-Stability and consistent sex without the threat of divorce and child support. Cons-Possible boredom