I wonder what the best combination of training would be for someone who wants to develop a strong all-round capacity to defend himself, without investing ridiculous amounts of time.
It's obvious that no one art is the answer and alot are useless or even detrimental. So, if you could train with multiple trainers over a year or two, what would be the ideal curriculum?
I sort of wonder if it's like:
-Boxing - learning how to hit hard, get hit and avoid punches
-Learning the Clinch and knees from Muay Thai (dont see a need for kicks, seems like a bad idea for street self defense)
-Some basic No-Gi Judo throws (i.e. being able to slam somebody on the concrete effectively if they grab you)
-Some basic no-gi grappling - getting mount & side controls, basic escapes, and a couple of submissions from guard if you end up on your back - triangles/armbars
-Some Krav Maga for street awareness and practical self-defense issues
I wonder how long that would take. Probably need at least 6 months of boxing. Couple of basic judo hip throws I'm sure you could get in 2-3 months. Basic MT Clinch and Knees probably longer - 6 months? Basic grappling, probably 3-6 months. Then abit of Krav for the street awareness stuff, maybe 2-3 months?
Of course it depends how often you train and what you train in parallel. But does that sound like a solid curriculum?
Like, not reaching "proficiency" in any one discipline but integrating enough techniques to be very capable on the street - you arent going to get your bluebelt or have amateur bouts - but doing the minimum to have a big advantage over average street brawler in any situation.
I know Krav claims to integrate all this stuff on its own, but I dont buy that they really get you sparring hard enough TBH. Seems more ideal to me to learn each component from a specialist trainer. MMA might be good but I would think MMA might be too wrestling-focussed which you wouldnt want on the street. Judo throws would be better than takedowns because you stay on your feet, and you probably wont need takedown defenses against street brawlers.
Any fighters / martial artists have any thoughts on this? Am I on the right lines?
(This post was last modified: 11-23-2011 07:32 AM by RichieP.)
you are definitely on the right lines. the only problem w/some of the MMA techniques is that there are rules for MMA fighting that dont apply to the streets. I'd use Muay Thai and BJJ as your base techniques with some Krav Maga sprinkled in.
BJJ and wrestling are almost useless in streetfights, unless you use them to avoid being taken to the ground, break grips, create space, then avoid further conflict.
I wrestled until my senior year of high school and did BJJ extensively. I'm very proud of my grappling knowledge and accomplishments, but even I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm going to come out on top in 90 percent of street fights.
If they have friends, expect to get stomped out while you are on the ground trying to punch him in the face. If he has a knife, expect him to reach for it while you're going for a side-choke, sweep, arm, triangle, etc. On the street, anything is possible.
Does training give you a distinct advantage over others? Yeah, but if you try an MMA fight on the street there is a risk you will get fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked up and not even see it coming.
Where MA training does come in handy is how you carry yourself, knowing you could take >95 percent of men walking the earth in a 1 on 1 fight. It's easier to stay calm and de-escalate the situation and think clearly.
Quote:BJJ and wrestling are almost useless in streetfights, unless you use them to avoid being taken to the ground, break grips, create space, then avoid further conflict.
exactly
furthermore, never fight someone who has a knife, it is too risky. at close range a knife is more dangerous than a gun and can create permanent damage....you never know if a thug has one..
11-24-2011 11:03 PM
peterthephoenix
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Krav maga and muay thai, I would say, covers most of your bases. Street fights rarely get the point where you're lying on the ground doing BJJ.
Low kicks to the leg for muay thai are definitely useful. They can end a fight, actually, because if it's done correctly and the guy doesn't know how to defend it, they basically won't be able to walk.
Elbows will also end a fight. I dont think I've ever seen a knee used in a street fight.
I want to learn some basic weapons training to supplement krav and muay thai.
(11-25-2011 02:49 AM)youngmobileglobal Wrote: Krav maga and muay thai, I would say, covers most of your bases. Street fights rarely get the point where you're lying on the ground doing BJJ.
Low kicks to the leg for muay thai are definitely useful. They can end a fight, actually, because if it's done correctly and the guy doesn't know how to defend it, they basically won't be able to walk.
Elbows will also end a fight. I dont think I've ever seen a knee used in a street fight.
I want to learn some basic weapons training to supplement krav and muay thai.
Cool thats good info, thanks. With the low kicks though, How long does it take to toughen the shins up enough to be able to do it without pads? I think I've seen amateur bouts where they're still wearing pads?
Also agree with everyone else about weapons and street risks being the bigger factor... but as someone said, for me it's just about having that personal confidence that I can deal some damage with my body and protect myself somewhat, even though I'd really try to avoid it coming to that, especially when travelling.
(This post was last modified: 11-25-2011 04:43 AM by RichieP.)
Quote:BJJ and wrestling are almost useless in streetfights, unless you use them to avoid being taken to the ground, break grips, create space, then avoid further conflict.
I wrestled until my senior year of high school and did BJJ extensively. I'm very proud of my grappling knowledge and accomplishments, but even I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I'm going to come out on top in 90 percent of street fights.
If they have friends, expect to get stomped out while you are on the ground trying to punch him in the face. If he has a knife, expect him to reach for it while you're going for a side-choke, sweep, arm, triangle, etc. On the street, anything is possible.
Does training give you a distinct advantage over others? Yeah, but if you try an MMA fight on the street there is a risk you will get fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked up and not even see it coming.
Where MA training does come in handy is how you carry yourself, knowing you could take >95 percent of men walking the earth in a 1 on 1 fight. It's easier to stay calm and de-escalate the situation and think clearly.
There definitely is a difference between Martial Arts and Streetfighting. If you want to learn to defend yourself, look into Combatives, not into the components of Mixed Martial Arts, like Muay Thai or BJJ. Google Kelly McCann or Lee Morrison or Richard Grannon. They have the best stuff out there, in my opinion. And by the way: I love MMA. I´ve been in it for quite some time now.
BJJ definitely has a place in streetfights but to think you are going to slap an armbar on someone is taking it a little too far. that being said a good BJJ student could use the simpler chokes like the RNC and Guilitoine, things like defending from the guard, and takedowns and leverage. Muay thai is the best for striking in that you will get experience w/kicks and punches and things like the plum clinch can be very effective. but if you rely too much on MMA rules you will forget things like headbutts and elbows to the back of the head that you didnt use in your training.
As for the question about having shins tough enough for leg kicks - the reason the participants in muay thai tourneys and training wear shin guards is to protect their opponent, not their shins. even if you have a minimal amount of muay thai experience your shins can still take most of what you will give them. and a well placed low kick into the softer part of a leg (thigh) will hurt the recipient much more then the person who threw it.
11-25-2011 11:22 AM
YoungGunner
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Krav maga should be the bulk of your time, followed by weapons instruction in a close second along with muay thai, and then some no-gi bjj. The thing is most Krav Maga curriculums include ground fighting and takedown principles, but in Krav Maga the idea is to get off the ground as fast as possible (I also wouldn't actively try a hip throw in a fight because I'd be turning my back to someone, I'd only try it if they were already on my side/back).
That said, it includes most of the takedowns and ground moves you would need to know. Muay thai will help you stronger and more accurate strikes, while Krav will teach you how to string different techniques effectively and aggressively to end the fight ASAP which is what you want. If you make a ring sport your primary form of self defense, you won't be thinking of all the "illegal strikes" that you could make at any one moment, and you certainly won't execute them well. Ground fighting becomes significantly harder to use technique when there is/are :
a) multiple opponents who could swarm you on the ground,
b) hard concrete where if you're in guard you could get your head smashed from violent guard stacking then striking
c) someone who just keeps tight on you so there's no space for you to maneuver and just strikes you.
11-25-2011 12:23 PM
Moma
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I've seen a few streetfights in my time. Most recently was in Scarborough. In all of them, they ended up in a grappling session except for the one on South Beach.
With the Scarborough scuffle, one of the guys was more accustomed to throwing punches. The other one was a grappling type of cat.
When they matched up, the other grappler got in close after the first punch. In a fight, no one is going to sit there and let you throw punches). You either get a lucky sucker punch in and then the person is going to retaliate with a punch and then get closer to try and grapple you and choke you or some other shyt.
So I think grappling skills are very useful for fights that last longer than one punch.
99 percent of street fights will end up in close quarters. No one is going to respect the distance needed to throw punches like in a boxing match. Unless, the striker's hits hurt so much, that the strikee has to respect the distance out of pain and gauge carefully before moving in closer (in this sense, the striker has practically won on intimidation factor).
I'm not saying striking is not useful because one can often deter another with a very hard strike (either by knocking the other cat out or just injuring them with that strike which causes them to retreat in fear).
However, it will end up in close quarters so if you know grappling techniques it will help immensely.
However, many fights are cowardly so that means both sides' crew will be present.
If the fight is not in the favour of the guy with the dominant crew i.e. the guy is getting choked out on the ground, dominant crew may throw some cowardly blows to even up the match.
With the streetfight I saw, the grappler had the guy who was throwing punches in some kind of neck choke and he slammed him to the concrete quite hard. I heard the guy who favoured throwing punches squeal in some kind of yelp and it looked like his neck was twisted in a weird fashion.
His crew, some Scarborough cat who was urging for this dude to 'hold it down for the block' slithered closer to break up the fight (since it did not favour the striker)and throw some surreptitious punches in on the grappler. The grappler fortunately had his brother and his friend standing by and they jumped in to deter any foul play.
(11-25-2011 02:54 PM)RichieP Wrote: Interesting Moma, thats why I thought judo would be useful. If someone gets in close you can just slam them on the concrete and maintain your footing.
You have a point about people not respecting punching distance, hmm.
How about Boxing + Judo, or MT + Judo?
Yes combining a striking art form with a grappling art form will generally cover your bases.
(11-25-2011 03:49 AM)MikeCF Wrote: Incidentally, very few people have been in any street fights, but have strong opinions.
The Gracie Family fought in thousands of fights. Their videos are all over the Internet. Jiu Jitsu beats all other styles of fighting.
BJJ is only useful in a one on one fight that goes to the ground. If the guy has even one friend nearby, BJJ is useless. I'm not trying to take away from BJJ, it's awesome, but it has its limitations when dealing with multiple attackers as will often be the case if you get in a bar/club fight.
11-25-2011 03:08 PM
Moma
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(11-25-2011 03:08 PM)speakeasy Wrote: BJJ is only useful in a one on one fight that goes to the ground. If the guy has even one friend nearby, BJJ is useless. I'm not trying to take away from BJJ, it's awesome, but it has its limitations when dealing with multiple attackers as will often be the case if you get in a bar/club fight.
1) I would NEVER want to end up on the ground in a real street fight in any tough city. Kicks to the head from enemies friends, knives etc.
2) if you use your hands for anything delicate, doctor, musician, etc, goodbye knuckles...I've seen about ten wrapped hands from punches that landed square to a forehead, thick bone there...and after, god knows what wrist problems you have
3) b.jj. wrestling, boxing......I've watched a lot of Mma and boxing, and I can say it's the practitioner of the discipline. Like, if you've got a superb kick boxer, he'll beat the mediocre wrestler, a superb wrestler like Chael Sonnen will beat a mediocre B.J.J guy...he almost beat the superhuman Anderson Silva. What I have noticed is timing and precision seems to win fights, Fedor Emiliankos timing, Anderson Silva's timing and precision, Mohammad Alis' timing and precision.
(11-25-2011 03:08 PM)speakeasy Wrote: BJJ is only useful in a one on one fight that goes to the ground. If the guy has even one friend nearby, BJJ is useless. I'm not trying to take away from BJJ, it's awesome, but it has its limitations when dealing with multiple attackers as will often be the case if you get in a bar/club fight.
What do you recommend?
I trained in Krav Maga which I think it good, but you could do just fine with some boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai for standup and a basic knowledge of grappling if it goes to the ground. But in the streets, you really, really don't want to be on the ground. You're going for a quick knockout if possible. So if there was only one thing to choose, I'd say boxing number one.
(11-25-2011 03:17 PM)Zep Wrote: 3) b.jj. wrestling, boxing......I've watched a lot of Mma and boxing, and I can say it's the practitioner of the discipline. Like, if you've got a superb kick boxer, he'll beat the mediocre wrestler, a superb wrestler like Chael Sonnen will beat a mediocre B.J.J guy...he almost beat the superhuman Anderson Silva. What I have noticed is timing and precision seems to win fights, Fedor Emiliankos timing, Anderson Silva's timing and precision, Mohammad Alis' timing and precision.
Spot on. That's why I'm strong advocate of shitloads of sparring. That is the only way to learn timing and precision. You just have to be there in the gym taking and giving the hits before it clicks in your head what works. Punching bags is good for technique and endurance, but you learn to be a good fighter by actually fighting, and fighting a LOT. Including getting your ass handed to you sometimes.
(This post was last modified: 11-25-2011 03:39 PM by speakeasy.)
11-25-2011 03:38 PM
Moma
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(11-25-2011 03:38 PM)speakeasy Wrote: Spot on. That's why I'm strong advocate of shitloads of sparring. That is the only way to learn timing and precision. You just have to be there in the gym taking and giving the hits before it clicks in your head what works. Punching bags is good for technique and endurance, but you learn to be a good fighter by actually fighting, and fighting a LOT. Including getting your ass handed to you sometimes.
I agree, all your instincts will kick in when you've been punched in the face. Your body will draw on all resources to prevent that pain from happening again. Stick and move, bob and weave, kick and shuffle..whatever you have learned will become engaged in your offense repetoire.
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