(02-14-2016 12:35 AM)All or Nothing Wrote:  Samseau this is factually wrong.

For one, it was George Bush Jr. that sent troops to Iraq with insubstantial evidence that Saddam Hussein was creating weapons of mass destruction. So it was the Bush administration driven by imperialism and nation building that led to this epic disaster.

The withdrawal process was put together and ratified by the Bush administration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80...Agreement.

The blame lies entirely at the feet of the Bush administration and his cronies, not the Obama administration.

I do not agree with every decision that Barack Obama makes, but we need to be grounded in facts and reality when making strong claims against a man's reputation.

First, do not be confused I am not defending Bush. Bush sucked ass, and was just a puppet much like Obama. These guys are both worthless. Obama in particular though, had an explicit non-interventionist vibe to him, yet he destabilized Egypt, Libya, and Syria. So I will give extra evil points to Obama for lying so bad, and for being either incredibly incompetent or stupid.

Who knows, Bush's withdrawal strategy may have been exactly the same as Obama's, or it may have been stronger. Bush did add an extra "surge" of troops back in 2006-7 when it was clear that his withdrawal strategy wasn't working then. So Bush did appear to have more of a mind of his own and was smarter than to let the entire Middle East fall into war, which Obama has done.

Quote:On another note, Obama has been doing pretty much nothing lately with regards to helping the Syrian "rebels".

This signals to me that Obama has started to slowly realize that Russia was right all along in helping Assad regain his territory with regards to maintaining the long term stability of Syria.

Also, it is patently obvious that these rebels are practically identical to ISIS. They are more of these Sunni Wahhabi freakazoids that terrorize the Middle East and the same freakazoids who have begun to terrorize Europe now. The rebels need to be destroyed or surrender, bottom line.

I like the idea of setting up a transitional government after Assad regains all of the territory. Setting term limits for the president and allowing Assad to run in a general election after ISIS is expelled sounds like a great idea to me.

Elections in the Middle East just mean that the most radical Muslim gets elected. Democracy + Islam is a proven failure, something most people don't get yet. Islam breeds exponentially fast, they will always have the biggest numbers in the long run until there is a massive war killing them off. They are the r-selected religion of war and destruction.

(02-14-2016 09:33 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(02-14-2016 12:35 AM)All or Nothing Wrote:  Samseau this is factually wrong.

For one, it was George Bush Jr. that sent troops to Iraq with insubstantial evidence that Saddam Hussein was creating weapons of mass destruction. So it was the Bush administration driven by imperialism and nation building that led to this epic disaster.

The withdrawal process was put together and ratified by the Bush administration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80...Agreement.

The blame lies entirely at the feet of the Bush administration and his cronies, not the Obama administration.

I do not agree with every decision that Barack Obama makes, but we need to be grounded in facts and reality when making strong claims against a man's reputation.

First, do not be confused I am not defending Bush. Bush sucked ass, and was just a puppet much like Obama. These guys are both worthless. Obama in particular though, had an explicit non-interventionist vibe to him, yet he destabilized Egypt, Libya, and Syria. So I will give extra evil points to Obama for lying so bad, and for being either incredibly incompetent or stupid.

Who knows, Bush's withdrawal strategy may have been exactly the same as Obama's, or it may have been stronger. Bush did add an extra "surge" of troops back in 2006-7 when it was clear that his withdrawal strategy wasn't working then. So Bush did appear to have more of a mind of his own and was smarter than to let the entire Middle East fall into war, which Obama has done.

Quote:On another note, Obama has been doing pretty much nothing lately with regards to helping the Syrian "rebels".

This signals to me that Obama has started to slowly realize that Russia was right all along in helping Assad regain his territory with regards to maintaining the long term stability of Syria.

Also, it is patently obvious that these rebels are practically identical to ISIS. They are more of these Sunni Wahhabi freakazoids that terrorize the Middle East and the same freakazoids who have begun to terrorize Europe now. The rebels need to be destroyed or surrender, bottom line.

I like the idea of setting up a transitional government after Assad regains all of the territory. Setting term limits for the president and allowing Assad to run in a general election after ISIS is expelled sounds like a great idea to me.

Elections in the Middle East just mean that the most radical Muslim gets elected. Democracy + Islam is a proven failure, something most people don't get yet. Islam breeds exponentially fast, they will always have the biggest numbers in the long run until there is a massive war killing them off. They are the r-selected religion of war and destruction.

Muslims have ridiculous birthrates- indeed the only thing keeping Christian growth up is moderate population growth amongst hispanics of primarily amerindian descent in the hispanic countries, ridiculous growth rates of christians in Africa, and far better ability to gain converts in tribal areas(those granola missionaries are actually having a real impact- they convert millions.)

(02-14-2016 09:55 AM)SigmundSauer Wrote:  

(02-14-2016 09:33 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(02-14-2016 12:35 AM)All or Nothing Wrote:  Samseau this is factually wrong.

For one, it was George Bush Jr. that sent troops to Iraq with insubstantial evidence that Saddam Hussein was creating weapons of mass destruction. So it was the Bush administration driven by imperialism and nation building that led to this epic disaster.

The withdrawal process was put together and ratified by the Bush administration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80...Agreement.

The blame lies entirely at the feet of the Bush administration and his cronies, not the Obama administration.

I do not agree with every decision that Barack Obama makes, but we need to be grounded in facts and reality when making strong claims against a man's reputation.

First, do not be confused I am not defending Bush. Bush sucked ass, and was just a puppet much like Obama. These guys are both worthless. Obama in particular though, had an explicit non-interventionist vibe to him, yet he destabilized Egypt, Libya, and Syria. So I will give extra evil points to Obama for lying so bad, and for being either incredibly incompetent or stupid.

Who knows, Bush's withdrawal strategy may have been exactly the same as Obama's, or it may have been stronger. Bush did add an extra "surge" of troops back in 2006-7 when it was clear that his withdrawal strategy wasn't working then. So Bush did appear to have more of a mind of his own and was smarter than to let the entire Middle East fall into war, which Obama has done.

Quote:On another note, Obama has been doing pretty much nothing lately with regards to helping the Syrian "rebels".

This signals to me that Obama has started to slowly realize that Russia was right all along in helping Assad regain his territory with regards to maintaining the long term stability of Syria.

Also, it is patently obvious that these rebels are practically identical to ISIS. They are more of these Sunni Wahhabi freakazoids that terrorize the Middle East and the same freakazoids who have begun to terrorize Europe now. The rebels need to be destroyed or surrender, bottom line.

I like the idea of setting up a transitional government after Assad regains all of the territory. Setting term limits for the president and allowing Assad to run in a general election after ISIS is expelled sounds like a great idea to me.

Elections in the Middle East just mean that the most radical Muslim gets elected. Democracy + Islam is a proven failure, something most people don't get yet. Islam breeds exponentially fast, they will always have the biggest numbers in the long run until there is a massive war killing them off. They are the r-selected religion of war and destruction.

Muslims have ridiculous birthrates- indeed the only thing keeping Christian growth up is moderate population growth amongst hispanics of primarily amerindian descent in the hispanic countries and in the phillipines, ridiculous growth rates of christians in Africa, and far better ability to gain converts in tribal areas(those granola missionaries are actually having a real impact- they convert millions.)

(02-14-2016 09:33 AM)Samseau Wrote:  First, do not be confused I am not defending Bush. Bush sucked ass, and was just a puppet much like Obama. These guys are both worthless. Obama in particular though, had an explicit non-interventionist vibe to him, yet he destabilized Egypt, Libya, and Syria. So I will give extra evil points to Obama for lying so bad, and for being either incredibly incompetent or stupid.

Who knows, Bush's withdrawal strategy may have been exactly the same as Obama's, or it may have been stronger. Bush did add an extra "surge" of troops back in 2006-7 when it was clear that his withdrawal strategy wasn't working then. So Bush did appear to have more of a mind of his own and was smarter than to let the entire Middle East fall into war, which Obama has done.

I would like to clarify the Iraqi drawdown. We left Iraq because we couldn't come to a SOFA, Status of Forces of Agreement, with Iraq. Iraq wanted to have judicial authority over US troops stationed there from 2012 onward, and the US military, rightly so in my opinion, said no, there is way too much corruption in the Iraqi system and too many people with a grudge to settle against random US soldiers.

So we were all sitting there in Iraq, with commanders coming up with plans of what we needed to leave to maintain a long term presence and what we were taking home. As 2011 was going by, all the commanders started to hold everything and everyone in place. Until July-August, when we opened up Al Asad Airbase again. And started flying everyone out on commercial 747's, versus C-130's and C-17's, because our military bases in Kuwait were full, and this was the only way to get everyone home.

We planned to stay. Nobody thought the Iraqi's would not sign a SOFA, because they would be destabilized immediately upon our departure. Which is what happened.

Now, could Obama and Hillary have pushed the agreement harder? Yes. Would they have succeeded? I don't know, but Hillary didn't exactly make a lot a trips to Iraq while I was there. But that is the thing about career politicians is that they don't know how to piss people off to make a long term, beneficial agreement. Obama doesn't possess that skillset, plus he was raised on the college liberal zeitgeist of, "War. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing."

So it was a combination of laziness, incompetence, and a magical Disney style world view. Same with Bush's invasion of Iraq.

Let me clarify one thing. Turkey has very good relations with the Kurds in Iraq. Their head Mesud Barzani regularly visits Turkey. Turkish companies are very active in the Kurdish region . The kurds in Syria are a different story, Erdogan sees them as having ties to PKK, which frankly they probably do. The biggest oil company in Kurdish region of Iraq is Turk owned Genel energy, which is a very good buy at these levels. Have a look at it, it trades on the london stock exchange.



Now the PYD which is backed by US and Russia, is as SJW as it gets. Erdogan wants a right wing type of government in that region which is not influenced by Marxist ideology. He fears that a marxist government will back Kurdish seperatists in Turkey. This is the main reason why the war has been going on for so long now,. Turkey was watching everything while ISIS was killing PYD troops, it only started to pursue ISIS after ISIS carried out a terrorist attack in Ankara.

It never saw ISIS as the main threat, PYD is seen as a much greater threat by Erdogan, because the Turkish state has been in an on and off fight against Kurdish seperatists for 30 years now. To sum it up, Ankara wants right wing kurds, not left wing ones.

Turkey is a USA puppet state, similar to Saudi Arabia.

When Turkey shot down that Russian plane, America said nothing.

(02-14-2016 11:46 AM)911Turbo Wrote:  To sum it up, Ankara wants right wing kurds, not left wing ones.

I'm still leaning strongly in the direction of you being a TIDF shill, but I won't accuse you of being that just yet as someone earlier vouched for you in a way and you may just have the wrong idea about certain things. I admit some of your posts show you're better informed than I had suspected. So assuming you're actually convinced of all the contradictory things you make statements about, I'll still counter your claims:

You labeling PYD as being "SJW" is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. Erdogan or any other leader couldn't care less about the political ideology of any group outside of their country, as long as it's not aggressive towards themselves. You're right that they have a Marxist ideology and I've seen documentaries about them and what they dream of is in point of fact a society with "equality between men and women" as opposed to patriarchal and so on, which might indeed justify the SJW-label. But if these people want to live this way, then that is their own choice. It doesn't change one bit the fact that they are very brave soldiers (the women even) and doing effective damage against ISIS. (A TIDF would for example use the knowledge that the forum hates SJWs by associating the PYD with the SJW-label in order to invoke negative emotional responses towards the group's aims and efforts. Just saying that's how those tactics work.)

Erdogan doesn't prefer "right wing Kurds" over "left wing Kurds". He just hates those Kurds that want their own state and take part of currently Turkish land as part of that state. The reason why he can do business with Turks in Iraq isn't because they're right-wing but because 1) he makes money off of it and 2) strengthening separatist tendencies inside Iraq weakens the country which he also profits from in return.

And where did you get the idea that Turkey is "pursuing ISIS" since the Ankara attacks? As we can clearly see based on their current military actions, they are still helping ISIS by attacking their enemies.
------------------------

In regards to the RT video I posted earlier, I just wanted to add: this is real journalism. I know RT is a pro-Russian propaganda channel, but they use it sparingly and selectively. I've seen obvious hit pieces by them, but it's not constantly in your face as with pretty much most other MSM channels. Notice how they support their claims by directly video-quoting important figures right after the fact or how they add disclaimers like "this has not been confirmed yet". I'm actually surprised sometimes by how good they are. Refreshing to watch something like this. Which doesn't mean one can let his guard down and watch the channel without skepticism.

^

RT is the modern day pravda that directly takes orders from Kremlin. If you happen to read it regularly you will see how pro migrant they are. Now ask yourself this question, why is RT pro migrant when Russian planes are helping Assad out. Assad is flushing its toilet on Europe, all of those Sunni Syrians will end up in Europe eventually, leeching off free money off Europe.

I made some investments 2 years ago, and put money where my mouth is. I am talking about sums of around low 6 figures. These were hefty investments for me. I put money in Turkey and Russia at the same time. Because according to my predictions, those two countries would emerge stronger after this migrant invasion. I still have money in both countries, I proved it to Going Strong already. I can prove it to another high repped member as well. While I was making these investments, Putin and Erdogan were the best of friends. Russia started constructing Turkeys first nuclear reactor.

Now it is true there is a conflict of interest for me, but I bet money in this without making baseless claims. My prediction of euro collapsing turned out to be true. While I made the investments 1 euro was worth 1.40 dollars, now its down to 1.10. But Russian economy took a hit as well, Turkey also took a minor hit, but not that much. I couldn't predict that Russian and Turkish relations would take a hit, because Erdogan and Putin got along very well even though they supported opposing sides in Syria. Billions of dollars worth of trade deals were made, and I liked both of these guys due to their anti western nature.

Now it boggles me that Erdogan suddenly became pro west after November, I did not take this into account. At one time he was talking about joining the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The guy even approved a tender that would allow Turkey to buy missiles from China, but after that tender got approved mysterious things happened which fucked up relations between Turkey and the east.

Nonetheless, I still stand by my predictions. Turkey and Russia will emerge much stronger after this. Erdogan already started calling the shots regarding relations with EU. They are willing to do anything to impress him even if it means delaying the progress report.
Putin and Erdogan will eventually settle their differences after all this is said and done. Even though they seem to be hating on each other, none of the projects between the two countries came to a halt. Construction of the nuclear reactor in Sinop continues. Russian tourists are still flocking to Antalya.

Schengen and NATO will collapse. Take Germany out of Europe, and you will see that Europe is nothing. Greece,Bulgaria,Romania,Poland,Czech,Spain,Latvia,Lithuania etc these countries produce nothing and only leech money off Europe. Spain turned to real estate to aid its bubble, but after the real estate bubble burst it has been in a fucked up situation. Same goes for Greece.

EU is a failed project, it is reliant on energy from Russia, reliant on Turkey to stop the migrant invasion. Their sanctions had no effect on Russia, what brought the Russian economy down was collapse in oil prices, not sanctions. Eventually Ukraine will be annexed as well.

And by the way, PYD is as SJW as it gets mate. US and Russia are using them as a proxy against fighting ISIS, neither Putin or Obama want their soldiers to die. They have a group that is willing to fight for them, and rightly so they are aiding it. But it does not change the fact that PYD is Marxist, Feminist. They are trying to regain control of an area where there is no oil. Right wing kurds are the ones controlling the oil rich areas in Iraq, If there was oil in that part of Syria rest assured you would have NATO boots on the ground, but why bother when there is someone willing to fight for you?

Also PYD was even supported by Turkey prior to 2015, it changed after June 2015. Suddenly Turkey started to see them as a terrorist organization overnight.

(02-14-2016 11:46 AM)911Turbo Wrote:  Let me clarify one thing. Turkey has very good relations with the Kurds in Iraq. Their head Mesud Barzani regularly visits Turkey. Turkish companies are very active in the Kurdish region . The kurds in Syria are a different story, Erdogan sees them as having ties to PKK, which frankly they probably do. The biggest oil company in Kurdish region of Iraq is Turk owned Genel energy, which is a very good buy at these levels. Have a look at it, it trades on the london stock exchange.



Now the PYD which is backed by US and Russia, is as SJW as it gets. Erdogan wants a right wing type of government in that region which is not influenced by Marxist ideology. He fears that a marxist government will back Kurdish seperatists in Turkey. This is the main reason why the war has been going on for so long now,. Turkey was watching everything while ISIS was killing PYD troops, it only started to pursue ISIS after ISIS carried out a terrorist attack in Ankara.

It never saw ISIS as the main threat, PYD is seen as a much greater threat by Erdogan, because the Turkish state has been in an on and off fight against Kurdish seperatists for 30 years now. To sum it up, Ankara wants right wing kurds, not left wing ones.

Turkey firstly wants to prevent a Kurdish state, which is why even German turks and Kurds fight each other here in big brawls.

Erdogan is murdering Kurds in East turkey not just PKK members, civilians, and he is not legally in Iraq. The state of Iraq confirmed that.

The Kurdish leader in Iraq you talk about has Israel connections and is corrupt.

Now turkey is killing Syrian Kurds, too. And bombing Syrian official army.

They are in every country with Kurds trying to stop them with force. Erdogan doesn't want to loose land and annexed Syrian border regions.
The Kurds are about 30.000.000 and more than 10 in Turkey more than 1 in Syria more than 3 in Iraq.

Of course the Kurds are turkeys bigger threat ISIS are obviously their partner, erdogans family earns a lot with them and he surely does not want to split religion and state. All I wrote is all proven by countless news sites not just Russian ones.

Throwing in words like Marxists and sjw won't make them come true.

^
Yes Masoud Barzani is an Israel and Turkish puppet and corrupt as fuck as the same time. I don't want to get into politics as all I care about is making money. It's middle east, everyone fights everybody there, so its never a good idea to take sides. Next thing you know Kurds and ISIS might side with each other, both are sunnis after all. Not that long ago, Turkey had very bad relations with Israel but it has improved vastly in the last 2 months. Things change very fast in the middle east its very hard to keep up.

Political opinions don't help me travel the world, money does.

When we examine Geo-politics in more depth, we must go well beyond the nation-state concept of modern times (pre-1648 and the Treaty of Westphalia) and examine deeper cultural, ethic, and language bonds between tribes.

Russia and China do not WWIII (but that does not mean they will not get it), they want to expand and control via the trade route (to include the old silk road and heavy rail between western Europe and Asia. They will work toward a Eurasian Trade Zone (ETZ) in which they will be the major players in order to (in part) counter US hegemony. Most of their strategic actions are to diffuse this growing WWIII scenario. I have proposed before that Turkey is the center of gravity.

While it is true that the Chinese see themselves as the center of the world, they practical understand that they need to internally manage 42 ethnic groups and these ethnic groups have cultural ties to other geographic areas of the world. These other cultural ties can be used as mechanisms of exploitation in the future to erode Chinese central power. In a similar vein, Putin has restructured state institutions in Russia to limit any possibility for using ethnicity to challenge Moscow’s political power. The proliferation of democracy in both countries will have destabilizing effects and is being used as a weapon (I am not arguing the (lack of) merits regarding democracy with this statement).

Putin (who graduated from the law department of Leningrad University (where he was later a professor) and was a KGB officer assigned in East Germany with frequent travels to West Germany) desires a supremacy of federal laws over the legislation of federal ‘subjects’, and the need for a unified legal and fiscal policy. He will use migrant flows to their advantage when possible (just like he will use democratic principles to his advantage when necessary), but the Russian history of dealing with 7 major ethnic groups that can be sub-divided into 185 sub-groups that supposedly inspired the creation of a Russian Federation, which is technically not a nation-state, but a multi-national state; has given him a broader base than most European leaders in understanding some of the intricate nuances.

The migrant flow to Europe will detract from Russia´s longer term goals of deepening trade relations with Europe and turning Europe east for the long term. I suggest thinking industrially as well as politically. German power has two prongs, one industrial (to include energy) and the other political. The Industrial side has been deepening relations with Russia over the past 15+ years and they currently have 4,000+ companies doing business with Russia, while Russia has been working diligently for the past 10-15 years to reform their legal (contractual) system in preparation for greater ties with Western Europe.

Ethnic Russians are some 80% of the (wide-spread) population. The development of a policy of assertive ethnic Russian nationalism would antagonize the non-Russian groups (like Ukraine). The Soviet Republic that preceded the Russian Federation was more of an ethnic feudal system (with certain ethnic rights in their home territories) combined with political and economic centralization. This is why Putin put forth a clear policy regarding the reassertion of state power after Boris Yeltsin´s democratic reforms. Yeltsin (I contend purposely under western guidance) did not articulate a Russian ethnic policy.

Putin attempted to revive a symbolic repertoire in order to organize a Russian national identity, using features from the Tsarist past (for example, new uniforms for the Kremlin guard and regular visits to Orthodox churches) while reviving some Soviet symbols (such as restoring the Soviet anthem, with new words). He was/is moving toward the development of an Empire-State where the identities of the leaders are rooted in their capacity to rule over a multiplicity of (ethnic) peoples across the Eurasian land mass.

I am of the opinion that Russia under Putin desires to give the formal Tsarist Royal family members a special status and stimulate their return to Russia as a practical means, to be symbols of national culture in order to revive a more nationalist power of people; that he can harness in order to solidify his own power. As to whether he or this notion has ties to a globalist perspective (note that many of the 20th century Soviet leaders were of Ashkenazi background) is another topic of discussion.

Understanding these types of details become important in discussing some of the geo-political machinations that are occurring under the public framing.

As a more practical transition, consider that OPEC may indeed fracture, but a new Russian-Gulf oil cartel will rise.

(02-14-2016 02:23 PM)911Turbo Wrote:  Now it boggles me that Erdogan suddenly became pro west after November, I did not take this into account. At one time he was talking about joining the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The guy even approved a tender that would allow Turkey to buy missiles from China, but after that tender got approved mysterious things happened which fucked up relations between Turkey and the east.

Nonetheless, I still stand by my predictions. Turkey and Russia will emerge much stronger after this. Erdogan already started calling the shots regarding relations with EU. They are willing to do anything to impress him even if it means delaying the progress report.
Putin and Erdogan will eventually settle their differences after all this is said and done. Even though they seem to be hating on each other, none of the projects between the two countries came to a halt. Construction of the nuclear reactor in Sinop continues. Russian tourists are still flocking to Antalya.
...
And by the way, PYD is as SJW as it gets mate. US and Russia are using them as a proxy against fighting ISIS, neither Putin or Obama want their soldiers to die. They have a group that is willing to fight for them, and rightly so they are aiding it. But it does not change the fact that PYD is Marxist, Feminist. They are trying to regain control of an area where there is no oil. Right wing kurds are the ones controlling the oil rich areas in Iraq, If there was oil in that part of Syria rest assured you would have NATO boots on the ground, but why bother when there is someone willing to fight for you?

Also PYD was even supported by Turkey prior to 2015, it changed after June 2015. Suddenly Turkey started to see them as a terrorist organization overnight.

Turkey didn't suddenly started to see PYD as a terrorist organization. Let me give you a detailed profile of PKK/PYD:
1- PKK's History
A-PKK's prodecessors are leftist, mostly maoist or leninist Red Army Fraction style organizations. They were ideologically marxist/leninist. And they still use the same rhetoric. Its early years passed with underground urban clashes with other leftist organizations. Assassinations targetting other communist organisations and racketing, mostly. Because of this, there still are accusations of being Turkish intelligence plants by other Turkish communists. This stage was completed after mid 80s.

B-In the second stage of its life, PKK started going after soft military targets. They were armed by Soviet government first, then supplied by other parties after the iron curtain went down. Because military's assets in the region was geared towards stopping smugglers, and the structure of the Army is slow to change, there were too much losses. Their operations in that stage were: Hit & run operations against border outposts, racketing, ethnic cleansing towards anyone not Kurdish living in the region. This stage went until Summer 1993.

C-As the crisis reached its peak point, Summer appointsments were made in the army. Experienced officers and crème de la crème of the Army were sent to the region. PKK's rural military side took large losses. A person of note here is Osman Pamukoğlu. He single handedly crippled the military wing of PKK. Another aspect of the war against PKK was the CIA style counter-guerilla intelligence operations which mainly started with 1995 government. Estimated 18.000 Kurds were disappeared. Some bodies turned up in acid wells years later, some buried in the middle of nowhere. These operations were paramilitary in nature and lots of human rights breaches happened during this stage. Hundreds of villages were burnt and depopulated to restrict PKK's logistical support. Here's a video of what regulary happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy8siq6W9TQ
The guys they took are probably all dead.

D-Next stage of PKK's life began as the Government started to went after its leadership. This is in 1998. PKK's leader Abdullah "Apo" Öcalan was hiding in Syria at the time. Turkish army was unofficially mobilized and Syria was threatened with war. Syrians quickly got Apo out of country, he went to Greece, Rome, and then Mogadishu. His final destination was South Africa, and he was protected by Greek intelligence along the way (how's that economic crisis goin'?). Turkish intelligence quickly reacted and captured him. Here's the video of his capture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VUo2Zq9e20
(Captions by me, any Turkish speaking user can confirm)
Soldier: Abdullah Öcalan, welcome to the Fatherland.
Apo: Thank you.
Soldier: How are you, how is your health?
(some bullshit speech about him having stomach aches)
Apo: "If there's any service my country [refers to Turkey] requires, I'll be happy to oblige. My mother was Turkish, that's all.
I was 4-5 years old when that happened, I still remember my father crying with joy.

International pressure prevented the government to send the fucker to the gallows. Which produced a great amount of political instability. Sadly, our rulers couldn't even man up enough to make soldiers shoot him an throw him to Mediterranean, as Obama did.

E-After that, PKK died out. Only 50 or so martyrs died as a result of terrorism from 1999 until the end of 2002.

F-Then Erdoğan took power. And US went into Iraq. Because Turkey refused to actively participate in the war, US rightly felt betrayed by this (we are talking about post 9/11 bloodlust), so this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hood_event) happened. (Quick side note: This is why US has %80 disapproval rate in Turkey, Turkey being a Muslim country is largely irrelevant). Turned out Turkey was right and US should never have went into Iraq but that's not important anymore. US sent arms to Kurdish territories, and some financial support, too. Some of them ended up in PKK's hands. Erdoğan's passive disposition helped this. There was also a covert war by Fethullah "Feto" Gülen's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_G%C3%BClen) sleeper agents in the judiciary and Erdoğan on the secular military establishment, which took attention from PKK. This stage was completed in 2007. Secular Military establishment was decimated and Erdoğan was ruling alongside Fethullah from that point on.

Which means you can thank CIA for Erdoğan. You could be negotiating with a level headed General instead of that turncoat peasant.

G-Turkish military begun new operations against PKK. They had only got bigger and bigger, and controlled most of the drug trade flowing from Afghanistan to Europe at the time. PKK took heavy losses, but the military was on a short leash because Erdoğan was also proceeding with secret peace talks. This stopped Turkish army to utterly destroy PKK militarily. I think Erdoğan's vision of peace was a Turkish-Kurdish federation ruled by a president (him), instead of a centralized nation state.

H-In 2012, Peace talks became official. Erdoğan continued with his delusion that terrorists could be negotiated with. Terrorists never conceded, and Turkish national pride and interests were hurt multiple times. Erdoğan also practically started Syrian civil war with Gulf Arab money. This ended up with PYD establishing a powerbase along southern Turkish borders, with practical help from PKK. PKK founded PYD. First PYD cadres are PKK insurgents and trainers.

And I can't stress this enough. PKK and PYD is like Wehrmacht and Waffen SS. They are practically the same. Their ideology and visions and styles of operation are shared.

2-PKK's financial assets:
PKK's main financial operations are centered around drug trafficking from Afghanistan to Europe. They buy mainly from Pashtuns and other Farsi peoples (Coincidentally, they war with other Turkic peoples, Uzbeks, Turkmens and Uighurs) and distribute via the criminal elements in Kurdish diaspora. This is all over Wikileaks.

ISIS frequently releases videos in which they destroy tons of Kurdish marijuana and some processed drugs.

3-Operational Capabilities
PKK is an organization based in Qandil (Kandil as we Turks call it) region. It's a very mountainous region, only has a few entrances and is a natural fortress.

They also seem to have a network of loose and undisciplined urban guerilla sub-organisation (HPG). These insurgents are being cleansed in South-east Turkey as we speak.

They seem to have some degree of power projection in slums of western Turkey (remember the guys whose villages were burnt because they helped PKK? They migrate to west, further proving the point that this is a local problem, and not an ethnic one. If the Turkish people as a whole discriminated against the ethnicity, they would run to neighboring countries).

PKK employed suicide bombers in the past, They also killed children on purpose in the past. They bombed crowded areas near school buses as to get their primary targets.

With the Kurdish parts of Syria under PKK/YPG control, they can also go into Turkey outside their traditional routes. (Syrian border instead of Iraqi border)

4-Foreign Aid
They have been aided by following countries and can be aided by the same in the future:
a-Regional Kurdish Administration: (Barzani frequently helped PKK when it fit his agenda
b-Iran: supplied medical treatment and allowed insurgents to pass through their regions and frequently deploy in
c-Syria: PKK's infamous leader Abdulla Öcalan was hiding in Syria before his capture by Turkish intelligence
d-Greece: Covertly supplied arms, provided refuge to terrorists, allowed a training/hiding camp to be in their borders, tried to hide Apo
e-Serbia: Supplied anti tank missiles, experienced snipers in 90s because we went to Kosova
f-EU countries: allowed Kurdish diaspora to send financial aid and extend PKK's influence in Europe - by racketing and drug trade. provided refuge to terrorists and their propaganda tools. Especially Denmark, France & Germany.
g-Russia: weaponry PKK uses is mainly of Russian origin (AK-47s, DSHKs, RPG-7s), I also think most training specialists etc. were from Russia
h-Israel: they claim to have only trained PJAK (Iran branch of PKK) but everybody knows PJAK and PKK are essentially the same)
j-America: incidental reports and news stories point direct US help to PKK
k-Armenia: Eastern Turkey was plagued by Armenian rural terrorists (ASALA) before PKK. Most reports point their cadres were transferred to PKK.

All of the said countries (maybe except Armenia) accept PKK as a terrorist organisation before international law.

In conclusion, because PKK and PYD are the same, they are both terrorists. And should be dealt with as such.

One side´s terrorist is another side´s freedom fighter and this dichotomy is used (for or) against a second and/or third counter-party.

Damn, I forgot to add the main point. A few weeks ago, it became very clear that an honorable peace was unachievable with PKK. Mostly because of internal Turkish politics that are so complex I would have to slave myself for weeks to completely write it down. There are also the problems Turkey facing in Syria.

In the face of this problems, sultan Erdoğan gave power to an element that didn't have any government power since... well Atatürk. These guys:

"Blood has touched wolf's teeth, fear us"



They are special forces of various armed branches. Notice the wolf handsign. Predecessors of these guys formed literal right wing death squads under colonel Alparslan Türkeş (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alparslan_...Crke%C5%9F) and clashed against communists. (those lefties whom the PKK was fighting when they first emerged) The guy who shot the pope was one of them. Most of the foot soldiers in the video I posted before (in which they take PKK-sympathyzing villagers to likely execution) too.

Turkish hate for PYD is not ungrounded. We just had a government that's so bad, we can't even fight against our enemies properly.

I will also add this: Turkish Republic went into Cyprus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_in...f_Cyprus), Aegean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia/Kardak) and Northern Iraq multiple times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hammer_(1997)) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dawn_(1997))

I predict we will not back down from this.

Tanrı Türk'ü korusun.

(02-15-2016 11:35 AM)Yagibozan Wrote:  Damn, I forgot to add the main point. A few weeks ago, it became very clear that an honorable peace was unachievable with PKK. Mostly because of internal Turkish politics that are so complex I would have to slave myself for weeks to completely write it down. There are also the problems Turkey facing in Syria.

In the face of this problems, sultan Erdoğan gave power to an element that didn't have any government power since... well Atatürk. These guys:

"Blood has touched wolf's teeth, fear us"



They are special forces of various armed branches. Notice the wolf handsign. Predecessors of these guys formed literal right wing death squads under colonel Alparslan Türkeş (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alparslan_...Crke%C5%9F) and clashed against communists. (those lefties whom the PKK was fighting when they first emerged) The guy who shot the pope was one of them. Most of the foot soldiers in the video I posted before (in which they take PKK-sympathyzing villagers to likely execution) too.

Turkish hate for PYD is not ungrounded. We just had a government that's so bad, we can't even fight against our enemies properly.

I will also add this: Turkish Republic went into Cyprus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_in...f_Cyprus), Aegean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia/Kardak) and Northern Iraq multiple times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hammer_(1997)) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dawn_(1997))

I predict we will not back down from this.

Tanrı Türk'ü korusun.

Then prepare to get an almighty smackdown from Russia and Iran. Turkey is long overdue one.

Quote:First, do not be confused I am not defending Bush. Bush sucked ass, and was just a puppet much like Obama. These guys are both worthless. Obama in particular though, had an explicit non-interventionist vibe to him, yet he destabilized Egypt, Libya, and Syria. So I will give extra evil points to Obama for lying so bad, and for being either incredibly incompetent or stupid.

Incredibly well said, certainly the finest summary of Bush-Obama legacy I've read recently.

I like Yagibozan's insight in this thread, lots of credible information and details.

Today is tuesday and no WW3. So everything is okay huh?

(02-16-2016 11:30 AM)RandomGuy1 Wrote:  Today is tuesday and no WW3. So everything is okay huh?

You might want to look into lead sheeting sometime in the future.

Turkey seeks allies' support for ground operation as Syria war nears border

Link (Reuters)


This golden paragraph sets out what our so-called "allies" have in store for us. Big bad Russia scares them so they need a coalition of Western powers to do a cold war era stand-your-ground action.

But this time they want to annihilate Kurds.

Quote:"Some countries like us, Saudi Arabia and some other Western European countries have said that a ground operation is necessary," Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu told Reuters in an interview.

However, this kind of action could not be left to regional powers alone. "To expect this only from Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Qatar is neither right nor realistic. If such an operation is to take place, it has to be carried out jointly, like the (coalition) air strikes," he said.

The corridor through the "rebels" has been cut off. Turks now have to go threw a layer of Kurd forces before getting through another layer of SAA/Hezbollah.

Meanwhile Kurds in the east are pushing through ISIS and will eventually unite with Kurds in west. Turkey's decision window to invade is getting smaller and smaller.

as a bible believer, a large scale war in syria involving the russians has me shitting my pants.

(02-16-2016 07:45 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  as a bible believer, a large scale war in syria involving the russians has me shitting my pants.

My mother keeps saying a large war will come out of the ME. Why does the bible have this philosophy?

(02-16-2016 09:22 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

(02-16-2016 07:45 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  as a bible believer, a large scale war in syria involving the russians has me shitting my pants.

My mother keeps saying a large war will come out of the ME. Why does the bible have this philosophy?

Is anyone familiar with Russian land&property market?'
Think its a good time to emigrate to the winning side

^How are you so sure Russia is on the winning side? I want to start learning Russian too, but investing heavily could be a bit early, although a promising gamble, don't you think? If NATO gets involved, Russia won't be so sure to win anymore. I hope they don't but despite hating Erdogan's guts, I'm not completely convinced yet that he's THAT stupid as to provoke the schoolyard bully without having his friends waiting around the corner armed with bricks and slingshots.