@TK i am just happy to learn so anything you can provide that wouldn't be a hassle is sufficient.

Do you guys recommend learning a martial art in a dojo (group study), or with private instructor? I always felt like the dojo has a better atmosphere and you can meet some people there.

(06-23-2016 02:10 AM)Rawmeo Wrote:  Do you guys recommend learning a martial art in a dojo (group study), or with private instructor? I always felt like the dojo has a better atmosphere and you can meet some people there.

It depends on the instructor honestly.

If you need to learn for a specific self defense reason (i.e. a viable threat on your life or you may be going to work in a region that is known to be violent) then private instruction would be most beneficial to you over a shorter period of time.

Group study may be better if you're an outgoing person and like social interaction.
Its a great place to meet like minded people.
Certain styles maybe be extremely intimidating at the beginning so being able to relate to other new students is common.
The only issue is that you get comfortable and continue to train with students with similar skill or lower skill levels than you. You don't progress as fast as you could be.
I see it happen all the time.

(06-23-2016 02:10 AM)Rawmeo Wrote:  Do you guys recommend learning a martial art in a dojo (group study), or with private instructor? I always felt like the dojo has a better atmosphere and you can meet some people there.

A mixture of both is best.

I can improve a kick boxer more in an hour's one to one training than they may improve in months of doing group classes.

So private sessions will always improve technique and understanding better than group classes.

Assuming the coach has the ability to actually analyse, figure out and explain how to improve, that is (most coaches in most sports are rubbish). It's often hard to find the time in a group class to massively change things.

Now, implementing those techniques in sparring is best done in a large group with multiple training partners. Everyone moves and times differently as well as being different sizes.

(06-22-2016 06:32 PM)chicane Wrote:  

(06-22-2016 05:57 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  You cannot Judo throw a guy at a crowded bar that just told you he is about to smash your face with a glass bottle (getting glassed). Judo does not teach you how to deal with this either. Would a black belt in Judo get smashed in the face like that? Probably not, but they would have to improvise alot on the fly. They would probably grab the guy by his collars, with a gi choke, turn him around and rear naked choke him out. Because the place is packed there is not enough room for sweeps and throws.

Would your average blue belt in Judo do this? Probably not.

Compared to the typical violent drunk you are likely to encounter in a bar, a brown/black belt Judoka will have several advantages. A solid sense of balance, good upper body strength, decent reflexes. In addition two of the throws in the fist eight that are taught to white belts can be used at face to face distance. It's been decades, so I don't remember the names.

One the other hand, finding a good dojo is tough these days. I recently ran into a black belt who didn't know the difference between a do and a jitsu. Sad. The BJJ places have wiped out most judo dojos.

It's not about the throws from face to face starting position. It's about where you will land the guy with the bottle in his hand. You cannot ogoshi, osoto-gari, harai-goshi, tai toshi, etc. that fool into other people. You need room for that. Remember the scenario is a packed bar or club. That's reckless and dangerous. If that guy has his back to a wall, you could drop-throw him where he stands, but you need a wall to do that, to avoid harming others.

That is why self defense is more than just simply fighting a motherfucker and winning. The environment is just as important as your fighting skills. If you and one jackass are in a desert with no one else around, almost any style is good enough to a degree, especially if he does not know any style at all.

That is true indeed. Bigger cities do not have this problem and internationally, Judo still has a big following, but I do worry about it's future a little bit.

(06-23-2016 02:10 AM)Rawmeo Wrote:  Do you guys recommend learning a martial art in a dojo (group study), or with private instructor? I always felt like the dojo has a better atmosphere and you can meet some people there.

Me personally, I like classes more depending upon the style. I only got private lessons once I got closer to black belts. BJJ is better in groups. Actually anything Ju Jitsu tree on down is better in groups. Boxing and kickboxing is good private, but like CrashBangWallop said, you need other guys for sparring practice.

Thinking back would I gotten better faster taking private lessons when I was a lower belt? Yeah, but I was too broke for that back then. Money can be a major factor in that decision.

(06-22-2016 06:47 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Best defense against a knife attacker...

just kidding ))

Great Datasheet TravelerKai, +1.

I am in my early 30s, and started training martial arts at 28 (after many years of inactivity due to a bad footbal/soccer related injury, and some bad lifestyle choices) I am addicted, best decision I have made while in my late 20s. So my advice to guys asking if 30s or 40s is too late to start, my reply is that no, it is never late, very hardly you will be in worst shape than I was back then when I started.

Currently I hold a BJJ blue belt from a Gracie Barra academy, and in the last 7 months been dedicated to K1 style kickboxing, but we train some elbows, though never in sparring. In the meanwhile have flirted a couple of times with Judo and Muay Thai, having had the opportunity to train for free with high level athletes mainly in the former.

As for BJJ, I will share just a few thoughts, it is a very useful martial art like any, in the academy I used to train and where still there is an open door, the other martial arts where never bashed, quite the opposite, it was always reeinforced that all martial are arts good in their own way. I just got fed up a little with the sports component of it, and what I perceived a lack of real life application for many popular techniques (spider guard, de la riva guard, jumping guard, berimbolo...everything related to ass on the floor), still the chokes, armbars or leglocks are awesome and brutal, the sprawls, guard passes, gaining the dominant position in a ground fight, some small leverage throws. It is a great art in fact, my curiosity just made me experiment a striking style, and I am really happy and having more fun now. Also does not helped what I perceived (not in my academy) a growing attitude in BJJ academies and circles, that it is a superior martial art, and that every submission win in an MMA match is just the job of the winner having a superior mastering of a superior martial art (see Nate Diaz vs McGregor...as if Diaz did not punished him before with strikes).

I am still a newbie in all of this, but I am loving the ride, and I think I will still feel like a newbie forever.
Finally, unless someone has a high track record in professional, olympic or even amateur fighting, if that someone considers himself a good martial artist, then he is training with the wrong kind of people.

Nothing kills better your ego and puts your feet back on the ground than to get a beating inside an academy/gym (better there than in street confrontation).

Anyway, and regarding the Datasheet, in the framework of my lack of experience, but just have some criticism regarding 3 points to the cons you have placed regarding Boxing:

2) Limited street and self-defense application. -----> Do not think so, a high level boxer can KO multiple attackers with a well placed punch in each.

4) No kick defense. -----> also do not agree, they can defend a kick like they would defend a punch, with the elbows and body movement in the mid section, and hands/arms in the head, only legs are exposed.

5) Heavy dependence on footwork, take the ability to have footwork from a boxer and they are done. ----> No way, a Boxer can knock someone out from a standing still position.

Thanks for the feedback.

Quote:I just got fed up a little with the sports component of it, and what I perceived a lack of real life application for many popular techniques (spider guard, de la riva guard, jumping guard, berimbolo...everything related to ass on the floor), still the chokes, armbars or leglocks are awesome and brutal, the sprawls, guard passes, gaining the dominant position in a ground fight, some small leverage throws

Yeah those techniques are not useful against anyone not trained in BJJ at all. Those guards would probably catch many advanced Judoka or wrestlers. BJJ is the ultimate ground fighting style for only that reason.

None of those guards were designed for street use, or other non competition use, whatsoever. Don't make the mistake of assuming anything you learn from any martial art, as having an application in another area it was not designed to be used for.

Quote:It is a great art in fact, my curiosity just made me experiment a striking style, and I am really happy and having more fun now.

You probably just have a stronger affinity for striking in general. If I were training a guy like you in Chinese Gong Fu, your animal is very likely Panther Style. That means you would have to learn mostly strikes, speed, evasion, etc. instead of other things like grappling and SJM. There is no shame in loving one style over another. It's like buying a pistol. That thing needs to feel comfortable in YOUR hand, not some tall Navy SEAL with 10"+ hands who swears that his pistol of choice is better than the pistol of your choice (accuracy and other things being equal enough).

You are the one that has to live with it for a long time. The best art is the one you are the most effective with. Get comfortable and be comfortable.

Quote:Also does not helped what I perceived (not in my academy) a growing attitude in BJJ academies and circles, that it is a superior martial art, and that every submission win in an MMA match is just the job of the winner having a superior mastering of a superior martial art (see Nate Diaz vs McGregor...as if Diaz did not punished him before with strikes).

Yeah, those are problems indeed. It's just run of the mill ignorance. Over time, they may figure out how things really work. Lots of people with these views probably never even sparred without pads and headgear before. Anyone can be beaten in the cage. One wrong move is all it takes. That is why MMA and NFL are so popular and have alot of appeal. Lot's of parity between fighters and humbling moments.

Quote:I am still a newbie in all of this, but I am loving the ride, and I think I will still feel like a newbie forever.
Finally, unless someone has a high track record in professional, olympic or even amateur fighting, if that someone considers himself a good martial artist, then he is training with the wrong kind of people.

Sport fighting styles are not the only martial arts. There are many good martial artists in the world that could kill you on the street before a police officer could save you. No one needs a gold medal or a W-L record to prove to you or anyone else that they have mastered 1000+ year old techniques designed to kill people. Triad gangs for decades had assassins with advanced knowledge to take out someone quickly like that and quietly. Breaking necks and knives are not the only ways to kill a man where he stands. Saladin and his powerful army had to yield to Rashid ad-Din Sinan because of the assassins he surrounded him with that put blades to his neck. Never underestimate your opponents.

Quote:Nothing kills better your ego and puts your feet back on the ground than to get a beating inside an academy/gym (better there than in street confrontation).

Yep.

Quote:Anyway, and regarding the Datasheet, in the framework of my lack of experience, but just have some criticism regarding 3 points to the cons you have placed regarding Boxing:

2) Limited street and self-defense application. -----> Do not think so, a high level boxer can KO multiple attackers with a well placed punch in each.

4) No kick defense. -----> also do not agree, they can defend a kick like they would defend a punch, with the elbows and body movement in the mid section, and hands/arms in the head, only legs are exposed.

5) Heavy dependence on footwork, take the ability to have footwork from a boxer and they are done. ----> No way, a Boxer can knock someone out from a standing still position.

It's okay, I will take the time to break it down for you. I hope it helps and if I come off a bit rough, I apologize in advance.

2. Sorry buddy but that is flat out wrong. Mayweather would not likely KO a 250 pound man in one punch, then be ready then do the same to another. Kitchko probably could do that, but he is a heavyweight. Weight matters and Weight = Power. Never forget that.

You also do not seem to be aware that boxers train with heavily wrapped hands.



Look at how much wrapping is in there. Then on top of all of that wrapping.



Huge gloves from 10oz to 16oz.

Boxers very commonly break fingers and knuckles in altercations outside the ring. The reason why is because this is what their hands look like inside the glove each time they throw a punch.



It's not even a completely closed fist inside that glove. I have had MMA fighters in my camp break fingers outside the gym and we wear 4-6oz gloves with even less wrapping inside the glove than a boxer would. Boxers and MMA guys commonly sprain their wrists outside of the gym, because their wrists are not used to impact without all that glove support.

Boxers do not train their hands for outside the ring fights. Heck some like Mayweather even break theirs in training camp or the ring.



This guy is doing Iron Fist conditioning drills on bags filled with steel ball bearings inside them. If he punched your face, your skull would crack, not his fingers. The secret behind the technique is the same secret to the power of Muay Thai fighters hard shins. Everytime he trains, he creates lots of fractures and tiny breaks in his hands. When he rotates to heal, the calcium will fill the cracks and be harder than the original bone that was there. Like scar tissue in alot of ways. After he heals, he repeats the process over and over.



Look at his ugly hands



Master Donnie can break a concrete floor or crack walnuts on the back of his hands. He would kill a normal person if he punched them in the face. Master Pang ditto. I'm talking compound fractures and multiple fragments. These are not the only people in the world that train like this. Every person that trains Karate and breaks boards and bricks barefisted, have the same power more or less. This is the real world brother! These people are deadly weapons walking around, like a lion amougst lambs.

A boxer after a fight with drunk dudes in a bar would be lucky to not have any broken or dislocated knuckles after it is over. Since they do not know SJM or other self defense techniques, all they have is punching. That is why I say boxing is not great for self defense. Better than nothing, but it is far from optimal.

4) No offense but this is absurd and ridiculous. Boxers never train to block kicks in the gym. If you really knew boxing, what you should have used for your critique would have been the footwork speed to dodge kicks. Boxers have that and that is it. Boxers are not stupid, they would never attempt to check a Muay Thai leg kick. I have seen boxers and too many wrestlers in smaller shows, have to tap out because they took too many leg kicks. One guy I know had to take a week off from his job, after a cage fight because he could not walk. He had no knowledge on how to check or avoid leg kicks.

5) You misunderstood that completely. Like I explained before, a boxers best defense is footwork to dodge any attack. If you take their legs away from them, like grappling, damage them from kickboxing strikes, push kicks and various other things and weapons, they are completely at the mercy of the attacker. They cannot fight on the ground. If I was a mafia guy and someone ordered me to make a boxer pay his debts, I would take a collapsible stick or a lead pipe and smash him right above the knee, then hit the other one. After that I could punch the shit out of him as I wished. If I needed to make a BJJ fighter pay up, I would smash his fingers instead because he can fight me with his legs.

(06-22-2016 05:57 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(06-22-2016 04:51 PM)IDrinkYourMilkShake Wrote:  Outstandig datasheet TK! I want to ask what mix of styles is do you prefer?
Also I just wonder... Im a muay thai practicioner, with some western boxing, and Im really interested on start doing judo. You wrote that its not that good for selfe defence so I wonder, isnt it? I used to work in a psych ward and there was some judokas that where pretty good on taking down ppl and holding them there. And they swear that the gi was very good to similate clothes on ppl. And like some of you guy menthioned, the part about how to fall right might save you. I also have to point out a sad fact that these days there is a high amount of (what WalkingMan called) "McThaijos", gyms that claims to teach muay thai but is rubbish, with bad boxing, no clinch nor elbows. Gyms where some ppl think they are the shit and that they can beat up anyone but wont compete, but once they get one hard hit in sparring they shrink to cry babies, have seen it many times.

You know what, that might be an oversight on my part. I should have made a distinction somewhere that in countries where bad guys do not have guns or commonly carry knives, styles like Judo or even boxing become alot better for self defense, than usual.

When I say something is not great for self defense, I am talking guns, sticks, machetes, knives, multiple opponents, broken glass bottles on the ground and other unsafe environments, cramped and crowded spaces (like a club, concert, restaurant), etc.

You cannot Judo throw a guy at a crowded bar that just told you he is about to smash your face with a glass bottle (getting glassed). Judo does not teach you how to deal with this either. Would a black belt in Judo get smashed in the face like that? Probably not, but they would have to improvise alot on the fly. They would probably grab the guy by his collars, with a gi choke, turn him around and rear naked choke him out. Because the place is packed there is not enough room for sweeps and throws.

Would your average blue belt in Judo do this? Probably not.

When making a recommendation for someone on self defense, you have to factor in the time they will be alive before they can get reasonably advanced enough to improvise like that, and take care of themselves outside.

Someone with 3-5 months of FMA/Silat, Systema, Aikido, Krav Maga, Japanese Ju Jitsu, etc. should be able to take care of that situation without too much effort.

On the other hand, a high school or collegiate wrestler (BJJ guys too...) might double leg takedown that guy and make a big mess, knocking over girls, other dudes, drinks, etc. A big risk is others getting pissed off and kicking you in the ribs while you and that guy fight on the ground.

Self defense involves risk assessment. If you are not trained on these things, you may not be able to think about these factors in a split second. A guy with a bottle in his hand means you have ~1 second to make a decision. Practice at class will have you prepared to use an appropriate action, because you guys do this stuff repeatedly.

Repetition = Muscle memory.

Honestly when people grab me from behind, I kinda zone out. Then they are on the ground, the next second, and it could have been just horseplay or a joke. My close friends and relatives, except one brother tries not to surprise me like that. One of my brothers just likes trolling me lol.

I actually used to test my higher BJJ/Judo belts like that too. When he is changing his clothes, talking, or walking home, we just jump him from his blindside and see how he reacts. It really needs to be second nature, in order to obtain mastery. That and the look on their face is funny.

Anyway, you are right about fake Muay Thai gyms. Some of those gyms that say Muay Thai actually teach American Kickboxing or just a hogepoge of junk. I was lucky, I learned Muay Thai from a guy that lived in Thailand and learned it there. He even kicked the young fruit tree the traditional way. He kicked our asses every night and told us we were pussies and would not last in Thailand. I got really good at MT because of him being tough on us.

Later he had a decent career in the UFC (Waves at Chowder Head!). Funny thing is that UFC fans seemed to not know out about his Muay Thai skills because he is known for his black belt in BJJ and his submissions. I don't think Dana White or Joe Rogan ever knew or mentioned that he lived in Thailand. Shit he used to even underground fight in strange parts of the world.

Funny how things work out like that.

Wow, awesome and informative distinction. Thanks. You have a much broader perspective of possible scenarios then I have, and yeah, taking someone down where you also might go the same way (like in a double leg td) in a crowded area is definatly not a good idea, neither is it possible to judo-throw someone then. Also, you coming from the US where the possibility of someone to have a gun is highly likely. I know you live in China and that you know the level of knife (and sword!) fighting that actually happens in many places there. Not to menthion the population density and how all that can make things go wrong. Basicly I see where you are comming from, and its interesting what you write about FMA then since I have been curiouse about that, and there is a place here, that seems decent, that teach it. Might give it a shot.

Back to "McThaijos", another thing about them is that they often doesnt learn how to do the nice sweeps and takedowns that actually exist in muay thai. The guys that are good at that once they engage in clinching they can just "shake of" their opponent in a sec, while still standing. My limited experience in that has actually helped me a couple of times in the ward, and i suspect that could be helpfull even in a crowded area if someone grabs you so you can just run away before his 20 buddies with crowbars shows up.

Correct me if im wrong but I see here an general advantage for sanda vs MT, where it has better footwork, quicker hands and a big variety of throws/sweeps/takedowns. So TK, whats your take on that? And hows the access to good sanda/sanshou in China, in general?

The thing everyone needs to remember when discussing Muay Thai outside of Thailand is that the scoring changes the training.

Westerners don't like clinching and don't really like sweeping. Western judges and audiences struggle to understand, let alone implement native Thai scoring. There are a handful of MT judges in the whole of the UK that I would trust to correctly score a bout by native rules (I've been on many seminars on the subject...it's just not that straightforward).

So, Western judges tend to score bouts on the 10 point system, as that's what they are programmed to do and it helps a clueless audience understand why x fighter won the fight. Punches are considered equal to kicks unlike Thailand. Westerners would be perplexed at the first round in MT not really scoring, for instance. Clinch scoring? No chance.

So because of this, and the influence of other combat sports, Westerners fight MT differently. Because of this, we train differently too.

(06-23-2016 01:54 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  The thing everyone needs to remember when discussing Muay Thai outside of Thailand is that the scoring changes the training.

Westerners don't like clinching and don't really like sweeping. Western judges and audiences struggle to understand, let alone implement native Thai scoring. There are a handful of MT judges in the whole of the UK that I would trust to correctly score a bout by native rules (I've been on many seminars on the subject...it's just not that straightforward).

So, Western judges tend to score bouts on the 10 point system, as that's what they are programmed to do and it helps a clueless audience understand why x fighter won the fight. Punches are considered equal to kicks unlike Thailand. Westerners would be perplexed at the first round in MT not really scoring, for instance. Clinch scoring? No chance.

So because of this, and the influence of other combat sports, Westerners fight MT differently. Because of this, we train differently too.

Preach!

It is HARD to get MMA fighters that have trained somewhere else before to fucking clinch people! Don't even try to teach them butterfly knees. I try to tell them they can pad the score card big time doing this and they refuse to do it because they are afraid they will get lifted or thrown, doublelegged, etc. It's a stupid fear. If you cannot knee quick enough to avoid that, you might as well go train with wrestlers not MT people. Or as CBW said, other styles of kickboxing.

For me it's just annoying as fuck trying to teach authentic Muay Thai and dudes want to dance around all day and not throw knees or elbows. I actually stopped teaching it to a couple of guys because they got on my nerves so badly about it.

The ironic thing about all of this is that the best wrestlers in UFC history (arguably) Dan Severn and Randy Couture made a king's ransom worth of a living off "dirty boxing" and clinching people. Ask anyone that ever fought or sparred with either guy and they will tell you how annoying it was because there was just no fucking escape. They rode your ass and got into your head badly doing it. Guys got very frustrated trying to pull away for the tenth time during a match. You would too.

I could talk about training and people's bad habits all day long. Honestly I thought it was just an American people/UFC thing. I had no idea other trainers have the same issue abroad. I once got hoarse screaming at a guy from the corner to knee a dude's thigh he had the back on. He had already kicked him in the same leg a million times before. Ridiculous.

This series by Bas Rutten is good for street fight/bar fights:

(06-23-2016 12:57 PM)IDrinkYourMilkShake Wrote:  

(06-22-2016 05:57 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(06-22-2016 04:51 PM)IDrinkYourMilkShake Wrote:  Outstandig datasheet TK! I want to ask what mix of styles is do you prefer?
Also I just wonder... Im a muay thai practicioner, with some western boxing, and Im really interested on start doing judo. You wrote that its not that good for selfe defence so I wonder, isnt it? I used to work in a psych ward and there was some judokas that where pretty good on taking down ppl and holding them there. And they swear that the gi was very good to similate clothes on ppl. And like some of you guy menthioned, the part about how to fall right might save you. I also have to point out a sad fact that these days there is a high amount of (what WalkingMan called) "McThaijos", gyms that claims to teach muay thai but is rubbish, with bad boxing, no clinch nor elbows. Gyms where some ppl think they are the shit and that they can beat up anyone but wont compete, but once they get one hard hit in sparring they shrink to cry babies, have seen it many times.

You know what, that might be an oversight on my part. I should have made a distinction somewhere that in countries where bad guys do not have guns or commonly carry knives, styles like Judo or even boxing become alot better for self defense, than usual.

When I say something is not great for self defense, I am talking guns, sticks, machetes, knives, multiple opponents, broken glass bottles on the ground and other unsafe environments, cramped and crowded spaces (like a club, concert, restaurant), etc.

You cannot Judo throw a guy at a crowded bar that just told you he is about to smash your face with a glass bottle (getting glassed). Judo does not teach you how to deal with this either. Would a black belt in Judo get smashed in the face like that? Probably not, but they would have to improvise alot on the fly. They would probably grab the guy by his collars, with a gi choke, turn him around and rear naked choke him out. Because the place is packed there is not enough room for sweeps and throws.

Would your average blue belt in Judo do this? Probably not.

When making a recommendation for someone on self defense, you have to factor in the time they will be alive before they can get reasonably advanced enough to improvise like that, and take care of themselves outside.

Someone with 3-5 months of FMA/Silat, Systema, Aikido, Krav Maga, Japanese Ju Jitsu, etc. should be able to take care of that situation without too much effort.

On the other hand, a high school or collegiate wrestler (BJJ guys too...) might double leg takedown that guy and make a big mess, knocking over girls, other dudes, drinks, etc. A big risk is others getting pissed off and kicking you in the ribs while you and that guy fight on the ground.

Self defense involves risk assessment. If you are not trained on these things, you may not be able to think about these factors in a split second. A guy with a bottle in his hand means you have ~1 second to make a decision. Practice at class will have you prepared to use an appropriate action, because you guys do this stuff repeatedly.

Repetition = Muscle memory.

Honestly when people grab me from behind, I kinda zone out. Then they are on the ground, the next second, and it could have been just horseplay or a joke. My close friends and relatives, except one brother tries not to surprise me like that. One of my brothers just likes trolling me lol.

I actually used to test my higher BJJ/Judo belts like that too. When he is changing his clothes, talking, or walking home, we just jump him from his blindside and see how he reacts. It really needs to be second nature, in order to obtain mastery. That and the look on their face is funny.

Anyway, you are right about fake Muay Thai gyms. Some of those gyms that say Muay Thai actually teach American Kickboxing or just a hogepoge of junk. I was lucky, I learned Muay Thai from a guy that lived in Thailand and learned it there. He even kicked the young fruit tree the traditional way. He kicked our asses every night and told us we were pussies and would not last in Thailand. I got really good at MT because of him being tough on us.

Later he had a decent career in the UFC (Waves at Chowder Head!). Funny thing is that UFC fans seemed to not know out about his Muay Thai skills because he is known for his black belt in BJJ and his submissions. I don't think Dana White or Joe Rogan ever knew or mentioned that he lived in Thailand. Shit he used to even underground fight in strange parts of the world.

Funny how things work out like that.

Wow, awesome and informative distinction. Thanks. You have a much broader perspective of possible scenarios then I have, and yeah, taking someone down where you also might go the same way (like in a double leg td) in a crowded area is definatly not a good idea, neither is it possible to judo-throw someone then. Also, you coming from the US where the possibility of someone to have a gun is highly likely. I know you live in China and that you know the level of knife (and sword!) fighting that actually happens in many places there. Not to menthion the population density and how all that can make things go wrong. Basicly I see where you are comming from, and its interesting what you write about FMA then since I have been curiouse about that, and there is a place here, that seems decent, that teach it. Might give it a shot.

Back to "McThaijos", another thing about them is that they often doesnt learn how to do the nice sweeps and takedowns that actually exist in muay thai. The guys that are good at that once they engage in clinching they can just "shake of" their opponent in a sec, while still standing. My limited experience in that has actually helped me a couple of times in the ward, and i suspect that could be helpfull even in a crowded area if someone grabs you so you can just run away before his 20 buddies with crowbars shows up.

Correct me if im wrong but I see here an general advantage for sanda vs MT, where it has better footwork, quicker hands and a big variety of throws/sweeps/takedowns. So TK, whats your take on that? And hows the access to good sanda/sanshou in China, in general?

I have never trained any martial arts in China. I actually tried to look for some monks to fight a few times before but my wife cockblocked me on that each time. She thought I was insane or would have embarrassed myself. I know where to find them nowadays, but that wouldn't be wise. I have too many knee issues and they would probably crush me anyway. haha

I have seen some great Sanda fighters in the past beat good MT fighters in the USA. It really comes down to each guy's training in my opinion. A dirty secret is that both sides will copy each other's style to a degree, especially on the pro level.

Some Sanda guys are soft as fuck though, all that said. Your average MT fighter is very hard physically, because you have to be!

Sanda gyms should be very easy to find in most parts of China. It's always on TV. Some say those matches are fake, but I honestly have not bothered to check on that.

(06-23-2016 03:47 PM)JayD Wrote:  This series by Bas Rutten is good for street fight/bar fights:

HAHA! Good Ol Bas. I tell you what though. For all the guys that are BJJ/MMA only kind of guys, watch all of Bas' tapes or videos to learn reasonable street defense, that won't take you years to master and you already know all of the moves.

He is silly for sure, but he is not too far off the mark.

My Mrs has a Bas Rutten T shirt by Roots of Fight. She looks fit as fuck in it!

(06-23-2016 03:41 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(06-23-2016 01:54 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  The thing everyone needs to remember when discussing Muay Thai outside of Thailand is that the scoring changes the training.

Westerners don't like clinching and don't really like sweeping. Western judges and audiences struggle to understand, let alone implement native Thai scoring. There are a handful of MT judges in the whole of the UK that I would trust to correctly score a bout by native rules (I've been on many seminars on the subject...it's just not that straightforward).

So, Western judges tend to score bouts on the 10 point system, as that's what they are programmed to do and it helps a clueless audience understand why x fighter won the fight. Punches are considered equal to kicks unlike Thailand. Westerners would be perplexed at the first round in MT not really scoring, for instance. Clinch scoring? No chance.

So because of this, and the influence of other combat sports, Westerners fight MT differently. Because of this, we train differently too.

Preach!

It is HARD to get MMA fighters that have trained somewhere else before to fucking clinch people! Don't even try to teach them butterfly knees. I try to tell them they can pad the score card big time doing this and they refuse to do it because they are afraid they will get lifted or thrown, doublelegged, etc. It's a stupid fear. If you cannot knee quick enough to avoid that, you might as well go train with wrestlers not MT people. Or as CBW said, other styles of kickboxing.

For me it's just annoying as fuck trying to teach authentic Muay Thai and dudes want to dance around all day and not throw knees or elbows. I actually stopped teaching it to a couple of guys because they got on my nerves so badly about it.

The ironic thing about all of this is that the best wrestlers in UFC history (arguably) Dan Severn and Randy Couture made a king's ransom worth of a living off "dirty boxing" and clinching people. Ask anyone that ever fought or sparred with either guy and they will tell you how annoying it was because there was just no fucking escape. They rode your ass and got into your head badly doing it. Guys got very frustrated trying to pull away for the tenth time during a match. You would too.

I could talk about training and people's bad habits all day long. Honestly I thought it was just an American people/UFC thing. I had no idea other trainers have the same issue abroad. I once got hoarse screaming at a guy from the corner to knee a dude's thigh he had the back on. He had already kicked him in the same leg a million times before. Ridiculous.

So true man!

Real muay thai has tecniques for catching legs that are about to knee you when clinching, and bear-hugging to slamming someone on the ground from the clinch is also part of it, so like you say they practice to be quick as hell. So no excuses for not trying to learn it and apply it into MMA. Btw, both Randy and Dan where greco-roman right? Because doesnt greco-romans usually clinch more then freestyles (generaly)?

Here is a good example of someone that has blended in real muay thai with MMA. Hop to 4:50 for some good clinch-knees.

(06-22-2016 05:57 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  You know what, that might be an oversight on my part. I should have made a distinction somewhere that in countries where bad guys do not have guns or commonly carry knives, styles like Judo or even boxing become alot better for self defense, than usual.

When I say something is not great for self defense, I am talking guns, sticks, machetes, knives, multiple opponents, broken glass bottles on the ground and other unsafe environments, cramped and crowded spaces (like a club, concert, restaurant), etc.

When I would live in an area where fights with weapons break out regular, my personal self defence will be to move away from that area.
Situation awareness and how you act comes a way before any fighting skills. Many people forget this. I guess all of us know a guy that brags about his fights but then you also know, he is that kind of personality that will bring himself always into trouble. Also the mindset is important, first body language and mindset to avoid such stuff but when you get into a fight you need the right mindset. When I did Wing Chung I got annoyed because we did not often sparr and if so only a few did take it more serious. For the rest it was more like, well I'm a Wing Chung material artist but their minds had be weak. As kid I did start some JuJitsu but I quit after short time because at first they teach you how to fall. And I was like, what a crap I want learn to fight that the other is on the ground. Back then you never seen any ground game in movies where most get their image of fighting from.

I can't kick high so everything that requires more then low kicks is nothing for me, a pity. I do now boxing and really like it. First of all it fits to my weight lifting and with the sparring its more practical then those fancy when the attacker do X you do Y moves. I agree that boxing lack skills for street defence. You have to add other things as well and there we are again at the mindset. When you are not willing to defend yourself, to fight till the end, it don't matter how good you are. When you have the right mindset and know your body to use then you can transfer a lot of things. When your enemy want to break your nose, has the determination and you lack it even a not skilled person can gain advantage. Its very hard when someone go full aggressive in a rage mode. To switch from easy and fun into a full defence mindset is not easy to handle all the time.

The encounters I had where most with drunk people, there you know something will happen and can prepare your mind even if it is just one or two seconds. A little more tricky is when someone attack you with a group assault like it is common with Arab and Turkish people here in Germany. When you hit there fast and hard and keep your balance, thats mostly all you need. A quick combo and most people had be done even before they run out of bread.

Do anything at all will rise your physical fitness, you feel more confident and when you transfer this into your body language you avoid in many case the be seen as a victim. Then add not be a trouble seeking person and situation awareness then you are fine. Personal I stay with boxing because I really like it and it push my physical level a lot. Beside that, in a street fight there are no rules. Kick to the balls, choke, fingers into the eyes and stuff like that is something that you should just do. There is a reason why its forbid in sports because it works.

(06-24-2016 04:59 AM)IDrinkYourMilkShake Wrote:  

(06-23-2016 03:41 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(06-23-2016 01:54 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  The thing everyone needs to remember when discussing Muay Thai outside of Thailand is that the scoring changes the training.

Westerners don't like clinching and don't really like sweeping. Western judges and audiences struggle to understand, let alone implement native Thai scoring. There are a handful of MT judges in the whole of the UK that I would trust to correctly score a bout by native rules (I've been on many seminars on the subject...it's just not that straightforward).

So, Western judges tend to score bouts on the 10 point system, as that's what they are programmed to do and it helps a clueless audience understand why x fighter won the fight. Punches are considered equal to kicks unlike Thailand. Westerners would be perplexed at the first round in MT not really scoring, for instance. Clinch scoring? No chance.

So because of this, and the influence of other combat sports, Westerners fight MT differently. Because of this, we train differently too.

Preach!

It is HARD to get MMA fighters that have trained somewhere else before to fucking clinch people! Don't even try to teach them butterfly knees. I try to tell them they can pad the score card big time doing this and they refuse to do it because they are afraid they will get lifted or thrown, doublelegged, etc. It's a stupid fear. If you cannot knee quick enough to avoid that, you might as well go train with wrestlers not MT people. Or as CBW said, other styles of kickboxing.

For me it's just annoying as fuck trying to teach authentic Muay Thai and dudes want to dance around all day and not throw knees or elbows. I actually stopped teaching it to a couple of guys because they got on my nerves so badly about it.

The ironic thing about all of this is that the best wrestlers in UFC history (arguably) Dan Severn and Randy Couture made a king's ransom worth of a living off "dirty boxing" and clinching people. Ask anyone that ever fought or sparred with either guy and they will tell you how annoying it was because there was just no fucking escape. They rode your ass and got into your head badly doing it. Guys got very frustrated trying to pull away for the tenth time during a match. You would too.

I could talk about training and people's bad habits all day long. Honestly I thought it was just an American people/UFC thing. I had no idea other trainers have the same issue abroad. I once got hoarse screaming at a guy from the corner to knee a dude's thigh he had the back on. He had already kicked him in the same leg a million times before. Ridiculous.

So true man!

Real muay thai has tecniques for catching legs that are about to knee you when clinching, and bear-hugging to slamming someone on the ground from the clinch is also part of it, so like you say they practice to be quick as hell. So no excuses for not trying to learn it and apply it into MMA. Btw, both Randy and Dan where greco-roman right? Because doesnt greco-romans usually clinch more then freestyles (generaly)?

Here is a good example of someone that has blended in real muay thai with MMA. Hop to 4:50 for some good clinch-knees.

That video was masterful!!!! I LOVED IT!

The video is right, Johnson is one of the few like this guy. Frankie Edgar and Dominick Cruz are not too far off either. That entire weight class is technique wise better than the rest of the UFC's weight classes, in these areas of work.

~ 7:10 mark his leg switches into kicks was something I used to do as well. Guys hate it when you do that. We used to practice switch kicks for an hour some days. It's a very powerful tool and is very under used. GSP loves them too.

One major thing about ~7:10 mark where they discuss using knees to deter level changes is that, UFC rules wise (even in smaller shows), it was hard to knee a guy going for a doubleleg or shoot on you. The refs would get all cheesy about you kicking a guy that is down. Muay Thai naturally has good takedown defense, the issue is that it can be against the rules. In PRIDE, or this league in the video, that kind of flying knee is okay and they can kick a down guy. I remember when we had to stop teaching guys to do that. It really sucked. We had to switch to hammerfists and occasional elbows. Me I always prefered the elbows if the rules allowed for them. In some places elbows were completely banned.

~9:30 mark those knees are illegal in any American leagues, but another powerful weapon. In fact, up and down elbows are too, I think I saw him throw a couple.

Like CrashBangWallop posted before, the rules force the styles. It's a harsh reality.

(06-24-2016 06:01 AM)Parzival Wrote:  

(06-22-2016 05:57 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  You know what, that might be an oversight on my part. I should have made a distinction somewhere that in countries where bad guys do not have guns or commonly carry knives, styles like Judo or even boxing become alot better for self defense, than usual.

When I say something is not great for self defense, I am talking guns, sticks, machetes, knives, multiple opponents, broken glass bottles on the ground and other unsafe environments, cramped and crowded spaces (like a club, concert, restaurant), etc.

When I would live in an area where fights with weapons break out regular, my personal self defence will be to move away from that area.
Situation awareness and how you act comes a way before any fighting skills. Many people forget this. I guess all of us know a guy that brags about his fights but then you also know, he is that kind of personality that will bring himself always into trouble. Also the mindset is important, first body language and mindset to avoid such stuff but when you get into a fight you need the right mindset. When I did Wing Chung I got annoyed because we did not often sparr and if so only a few did take it more serious. For the rest it was more like, well I'm a Wing Chung material artist but their minds had be weak. As kid I did start some JuJitsu but I quit after short time because at first they teach you how to fall. And I was like, what a crap I want learn to fight that the other is on the ground. Back then you never seen any ground game in movies where most get their image of fighting from.

I can't kick high so everything that requires more then low kicks is nothing for me, a pity. I do now boxing and really like it. First of all it fits to my weight lifting and with the sparring its more practical then those fancy when the attacker do X you do Y moves. I agree that boxing lack skills for street defence. You have to add other things as well and there we are again at the mindset. When you are not willing to defend yourself, to fight till the end, it don't matter how good you are. When you have the right mindset and know your body to use then you can transfer a lot of things. When your enemy want to break your nose, has the determination and you lack it even a not skilled person can gain advantage. Its very hard when someone go full aggressive in a rage mode. To switch from easy and fun into a full defence mindset is not easy to handle all the time.

The encounters I had where most with drunk people, there you know something will happen and can prepare your mind even if it is just one or two seconds. A little more tricky is when someone attack you with a group assault like it is common with Arab and Turkish people here in Germany. When you hit there fast and hard and keep your balance, thats mostly all you need. A quick combo and most people had be done even before they run out of bread.

Do anything at all will rise your physical fitness, you feel more confident and when you transfer this into your body language you avoid in many case the be seen as a victim. Then add not be a trouble seeking person and situation awareness then you are fine. Personal I stay with boxing because I really like it and it push my physical level a lot. Beside that, in a street fight there are no rules. Kick to the balls, choke, fingers into the eyes and stuff like that is something that you should just do. There is a reason why its forbid in sports because it works.

I even think or just flat out recommend that every person should take boxing classes for even a few months. Folks who take classical styles or self defense only styles either never get to know or forgot what it is like to get punched in the face. Sometimes you need a good reminder every so often what real contact feels like, so that when something goes bad, you will react accordingly.

Even an Aikido master getting sucker punched or hit in the back of the head may drop to the ground, like a little girl, if he does not train and prepare his body for impact.

^^and what about those Iron fisted dudes who are lions amongst lambs? They also can drop to the ground?

(06-24-2016 09:44 AM)Rocha Wrote:  ^^and what about those Iron fisted dudes who are lions amongst lambs? They also can drop to the ground?

Yes even they can be dropped from a sucker punch or attack from behind, if they are not strong enough to endure the first hit.

I am quite sure Brock Lesnar can be possibly knocked the fuck out if you jumped on him from uptop a tree. Question is, if he somehow quickly recovers from it, what's your next move?

(06-24-2016 10:51 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(06-24-2016 09:44 AM)Rocha Wrote:  ^^and what about those Iron fisted dudes who are lions amongst lambs? They also can drop to the ground?

Yes even they can be dropped from a sucker punch or attack from behind, if they are not strong enough to endure the first hit.

I am quite sure Brock Lesnar can be possibly knocked the fuck out if you jumped on him from uptop a tree. Question is, if he somehow quickly recovers from it, what's your next move?

Run Rocha run...

You think Brock Lesnar does fist conditioning training?

I am loving this thread.

(06-24-2016 11:07 AM)Rocha Wrote:  

(06-24-2016 10:51 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(06-24-2016 09:44 AM)Rocha Wrote:  ^^and what about those Iron fisted dudes who are lions amongst lambs? They also can drop to the ground?

Yes even they can be dropped from a sucker punch or attack from behind, if they are not strong enough to endure the first hit.

I am quite sure Brock Lesnar can be possibly knocked the fuck out if you jumped on him from uptop a tree. Question is, if he somehow quickly recovers from it, what's your next move?

Run Rocha run...

You think Brock Lesnar does fist conditioning training?

I am loving this thread.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but you would likely have to ask him.

If you are trying to be a smartass or troll me, I urge you to re-read the preface from the original post.

Quote:Preface: This datasheet is not going to be some Traditional Systems vs. Modern Systems junk that is commonly seen on many martial arts websites and forums. MMA is not some modern system that is better than older systems. There is no such thing as a Modern Martial Art. That is a complete misnomer that lacks intellectual integrity or honesty. All systems have strengths and weaknesses. All systems come from an older system linage wise and/or borrowed from many other systems. Complete systems refer to systems that include techniques for any and all situations. Incomplete systems are thus systems that do not have a technique to deal with a particular situation. This datasheet will not be a sport system vs non-sports system guide. Sports systems do not tend to handle various self-defense aspects well, and non-sports systems tend not to train their fighters to have the athleticism required to handle themselves against powerful opponents. Ultimately, it is up to the individual fighter to close any and all gaps in their game as a person. It is NOT anyone else’s responsibility for your failures to protect yourself on the street or win fights professionally.
Feel free to ask questions in the thread or send me PMs, but I will not reply to or dignify stupid arguments or inquiries about modern vs traditional or sport vs. non-sport styles, for all the reasons I listed above.

How would he be smartass or trolling you?

I don't understand how you could take it that way, from how I read it.

Seems like a humorous reply followed by a quick question (perhaps the tone from funny to serious question is a strange transition?)

G

(06-24-2016 07:34 PM)Geomann180 Wrote:  How would he be smartass or trolling you?

I don't understand how you could take it that way, from how I read it.

Seems like a humorous reply followed by a quick question (perhaps the tone from funny to serious question is a strange transition?)

G

Guys, let's stop with the silliness. This is one of the best threads on the forum and let's keep it that way.

I have been seriously thinking of hitting up Philippines to learn Eskrima/Kali. After reading this I am a little hesitant. I was under the impression the movements with sticks were suppose to translate with other weapons and even empty hands.

It this not the case? The reason I asked is because of the comments about walking around with sticks.

Cheers Guys and thanks for the in-depth comparisons.

(06-25-2016 05:12 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(06-24-2016 07:34 PM)Geomann180 Wrote:  How would he be smartass or trolling you?

I don't understand how you could take it that way, from how I read it.

Seems like a humorous reply followed by a quick question (perhaps the tone from funny to serious question is a strange transition?)

G

Guys, let's stop with the silliness. This is one of the best threads on the forum and let's keep it that way.

I have been seriously thinking of hitting up Philippines to learn Eskrima/Kali. After reading this I am a little hesitant. I was under the impression the movements with sticks were suppose to translate with other weapons and even empty hands.

It this not the case? The reason I asked is because of the comments about walking around with sticks.

Cheers Guys and thanks for the in-depth comparisons.

The stick movements do translate to other weapons and empty hands.

In fact, let's breakdown what melee weapons are in general.

Melee weapons are just extensions of your own hands.

An untrained 12 year old will still swing a sword like a child. Why, not so much because he sucks at a sword, but because his hands are not fully trained to wield it.

If you ever train with Japanese swords you start off learning with the kendo stick first. Bokken swords come later. Why? A Bokken is heavier and alot closer to a real sword and will help strengthen your arms and hands. A Kendo stick is light and is for getting down the motions and technique correctly.

FMA has the same principles in mind. If you can swing a stick so quickly and smack a guy 7 times, in 7 different areas, taking away his ability to react, imagine what what you would do if you were holding a knife! That is why they can "undress" a man in under 2 seconds. They cut the sinews, the tendons, then the carotid arteries. A guy with his tendons cut, cannot use his arms to stop you.

That is why FMA is extremely deadly in wrong hands. In some way, the sticks serve a purpose for them to check your mentality before showing you all the knife stuff. I was able to skip ahead because I only had 3-4 months to learn it, I have a black belt in Japanese JuJitsu (so I know just as many dangerous things if not more), and these were private lessons in the form of a trade (I taught him BJJ, he taught me their knife and hand suite). If I had the luxury of time back then, I would have learned the sticks too. FMA is also based on Japanese Ju Jitsu. Where it differs is their striking suite, the sticks, and the advanced knife techniques. Another reason for the sticks is that it is safer to practice your rhythms with a stick than a knife. Old school knife fighters in the PI have scars all over their arms. You don't want that.

I was told this by Filipinos I know (including the guy that trained me), although I never been there to see it, that many hitmen there (like Davao Death Squad types), are dangerous like this. Allegedly they are proficient with knives and sticks due to FMA techniques. Some have guns yes for sure, but street fighting is still their base.

If you want to learn FMA, do not let the sticks deter you. If anything you probably want that knowledge. Collapsible sticks are now a reality and even Korean gangsters commonly carry them. When I learned back then, that was not really around like that. Maybe they existed but they may not have been as good as they are now. If you think about it, in some places carrying sticks is legal whereas knives are not. It's good to have options, especially if you like to travel.

If you absolutely want to learn without sticks, you could always go for Pencak Silat, but some schools still use them as well. It really seems to depends on the teacher. Some of them even use machetes or swords and you probably won't like that either. It's really not a deal breaker at all the end of the day when you really think about it.