Post: #26

(03-22-2017 05:29 PM)churros Wrote:  There's such a massive difference between early and late Ali. What happened to him? I mean, I know he got older, but does it affect your style that drastically? Look at this guy.

He had a lot of kids and he had a lot of pressures on him.

He only became popular after he retired.

People nowadays want to forget what he stood for and what he meant to black people across the world.

My father stayed up late in the night to listen on the radio, Ali knock out Liston.

Post: #27

(03-22-2017 11:58 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I don't really think Tyson in his prime had any real holes in his game. You stepped into the ring, you lost, Mike won and that was that.

All interesting points, but they are superceded by the question of when exactly he was juicing. Drugs make it impossible to actually discuss a fighter objectively, which is sad. Ruins the sport for everyone.

Dope really dehumanises a fighter. When that human connection is lost, you're just watching a machine. And that is precisely how guys have described Tyson in this thread. It looks unnatural because it is.

No doubt Tyson hit hard, but Liston was a killer too. There's a good quote by Ali talking about how scared he was going into that fight. He didn't expect to win and was the underdog.

Post: #28

(03-22-2017 06:59 PM)Soyouz Wrote:  He had to stop boxing for many years, ran out of money, had to go fight a Japanese wrestler in a bizarre MMA match. This giant wrestler spent 15 rounds kicking Ali's legs, severely injuring him. Ali couldn't walk for a while after this fight.

That's insane. The feet movement and bobbing is what I really meant earlier, when I talked about his changes in style.

It's the combination of movement and power which is so astonishing about Ali. Those punches look like nothing, then you see the opponent just drop...

Ironically that's what makes it plausible, at least, that Liston didn't fake it.

Post: #29

Do not bring juice into this discussion because that's just boogieman nonsense. We have no fucking clue who is on what, especially 60 years ago. Get some medical records or it doesn't matter.

We cannot verify who was or was not on gear just by looking at them.

Ali was boxing at a time when we knew about testosterone (the 70s) and people were getting fucking prescriptions for dianabol from their doctors so they could be better at high school football (dead serious). Kids on the sports team could get access to dianabol but I'm supposed to believe that Ali, Frazier, Foreman were perfect angels and didn't do ANYTHING besides eat, train and sleep and become the best? OK.



And don't say "but they weren't that big so they weren't on testosterone!"

Inject testosterone alone without eating a surplus of calories is not going to make someone into a mass monster or a "machine." Not to mention, boxers train heavily for endurance so they're burning a lot of calories. You can take testosterone and not become huge but still get extra strength and power behind your punches. We really don't know who was on what unless they come forward with medical records.

How do you know that Foreman, Frazier and Ali weren't taking syringes of testosterone down every week so that they could recover better and have more power behind their punches? There is literally no way to know who was on which drugs.

Speaking of unnatural, I'm supposed to believe that Tyson's power and precision was "unnatural and scary" but Ali's ability to read punches and move like water isn't natural and strange? how do we know he wasn't doping?

I'm supposed to believe Tyson was "unnatural" but George Foreman's insane jab power was just "genetics" and "training?" Ha. Foreman's jab was more explosive than many professional boxers' haymakers but totally natty bro. Ha.

The ancient Greeks would chew bull testicles because they thought that it would give them extra speed and strength while racing.

Ancient human hunters would eat the ephedrine plant to get extra strength and stamina on long hunts.

Hunter/gathers in south America ate the coca leaf so they could march further and longer.

Sports enhancement has gone on forever.

If you watch any sport today everyone who is worth a damn is juicing or was juicing. The idea of playing a sport and being the best without juicing is laughable.

Also, it juicing doesn't automatically make someone into an unstoppable machine. That's nonsense and propaganda.

I have many friends who are steroid users and you'd look at them and go, "do you even lift?"

Just the other day this guy was telling me about how he is on Trenbolone and Testosterone but the motherfucker looked like he hadn't seen the inside of a gym in 10 years.

The point i'm making is just that the assumption that Ali and his generation weren't doing something to scientifically enhancement themselves for their fights is laughable. You could get steroids with a doctor's prescription back in those days and I doubt the regulations were all that tough. I assume any world class athlete is juicy as hell and I compare them all assuming they're on Juice.

if they're not on juice then they're probably not world class.

Post: #30

(03-25-2017 10:29 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I have many friends who are steroid users and you'd look at them and go, "do you even lift?"

You're from New Jersey and your're saying that? We must run in vastly different circles.

Post: #31

Gerry Cooney, at his best, would have some chance at pulling off an upset against either of those guys. Biggest waste of talent in heavyweight boxing history and one of the biggest wastes of talent in all of boxing ever.

Post: #32

^ There are so many guys on gear who don't look like it.

I haven't lived back home for nearly 2 years, but Asia, in particular attracts a lot of gear users since you can get the stuff so cheap out here.

Post: #33

(03-25-2017 10:29 PM)Fortis Wrote:  ...

Interesting. I was just going on what someone mentioned in this thread, I'm not an expert.

To my untrained eye, at least, it just looks like something is going on with Tyson. The bulging muscles, the eyes, the aggression. Ali doesn't have that going on. Completely unscientific, but just my impression.

Post: #34

^ In hindsight my rant came off a bit wrong. Didn't mean to appear as though I was yelling. Boxing just gets me excited as hell.

Post: #35

Yea, the juicing has nothing to do with anything. Put Ali and Tyson on whatever they both were on in their prime and Tyson goes down. You lot keep quoting Tyson but you fail to realise that he was knocking out bums.

Who did Tyson knock out that was a decent fighter? It's one thing to look good against bums but another against serious fighters. Don't even mention Trevor Berbick at the time he fought Tyson and compare him to Liston, Norton, Foreman etc. Don't mention the old Larry Holmes and compare him to same group. Don't mention Michael Spinks.

Post: #36

I was re-reading an interview with George Foreman and thought it would interest some of you guys. Basically, back in the 1960's George Foreman was a sparring partner for non other than Sonny Liston.

http://www.boxingscene.com/george-forema...ton--47293

Quote:George Foreman Discusses Friendship With Sonny Liston

So few really knew heavyweight boxing legend Charles "Sonny" Liston inside out of the ring, and the pattern of his life, which ressembled a knocked down book of horoscopes. One person who did spend time with him was George Foreman, who was a teenage sparring partner prior to his own Olympic Triumph in Mexico, and afterwards. George who's attending the WBC's Convention in Las Vegas has been sharing his memories with BoxingScene's James Blears, who started by asking him, how it had all come about?

GF: At the end of 1967, I was invited into Sonny Liston's training camp. His manager Dick Saddler needed a big guy for him to have atmosphere, so they asked me to come in and spar with him. And my trainer at the time asked me whether I would mind. I took him up on it. So I had that relationship before the Olympics. I sparred a couple of rounds with him, and boy what it did for my confidence. So after the Olympics, I met Dick Saddler who was the manager for Sonny Liston. I told him I'd like to go into boxing, but start slow with exhibitons, and would he be able to help me? That brought me to Saddler, and he brought me to Liston and we became stablemates.

BoxingScene.com: What was Sonny like, and what was it like sparring against him? His left jab and left hook were monstrous.

GF: His right hand was also a killer! There wasn't anything missing from Sonny Liston. He had the whole package. Of course, Muhammad Ali was more nimble, but there was no better accurate right hand punching, after that left jab. Saddler wanted me to learn, so he'd admonish Liston not to be too tough on me. But I didn't know any other way. No one had given me any information on how to spar, so every time the bell would ring, I'd try to fight. And a few times he knocked me off him, so I felt his power, and I knew he was a great boxer. But more than everything, he had coordination which meant that if he got you going with his left jab, he would keep you going until the bell rang. Liston had it going for him.

BoxingScene.com: He wasn't as tall as you, but he had one of the longest reaches.

GF: If you got into the ring with him, and try and catch him with jabs, you'd lose, because although he wasn't my height, when you looked across the ring he seemed to be ten feet tall. And he had extra long arms, which reached all the way down to his knees. He could do some wonderful things with them. And he had the widest fingers you've ever seen in your life. He was truely a big gifted heavyweight.

BoxingScene.com: Do you think he was left handed. It's difficult to know, because he couldn't read or write.

GF: I saw him sign autographs. Evidently he'd met a priest somewhere down the line, who'd shown him how to draw his autograph. Sometimes we'd both sign them, and I'd be done and he was still signing two or three, and it would always be done with his right hand.

BoxingScene.com: What was Sonny like up in the ring, and outside the ring?

GF: He was a good boxer because he'd learned to box early on. He'd been taught well, so he knew how to follow instructions in the ring. He wasn't wild. he followed the instructions of his trainer to a tee. And outside the ring, he was gentle and really kind to me. One time, I guess he didn't know that I didn't know that he was illiterate. I tried to show him a horrorscope book. I said read this, and I handed the book to him and he knocked the book out of my hand....get that 'Blankety blank....out of my face!" And it made me feel bad, but later on, Saddler made me understand that the Big Man didn't mean any harm. He was a nice guy, but he had this defensive mechanism that would make people stand so far away, and not to cross the line and find out too many of his secrets.

BoxingScene.com: How old do you think he was when you met him? When he fought Muhammad Ali, he looked old already.

GF: I had no idea of his age. As a matter of fact, it never crossed my mind because Liston was doing all the things the young heavyweight couldn't do. So physically there wasn't anything wrong as far as I could see, that was a challenge for him at his age. I saw him fight Henry Clark and Scrap Iron Johnson, and he was the one who had the stamina in the last rounds. The only time I saw a chink was when he fought Leontes Martin. But then Liston was sick prior to that. He got a cold he just couldn't recover from. And he would go out after a boxing match and start drinking and it would sometimes last a month. Then he'd come back and get into training. I think he finally went to the well, and there just wasn't any water.

I spent a lot of time with Sonny Liston, and the last time I truely met with him, he asked me to read a contract. I read it to him, and he responded: 'That's what it says? That's what I thought." I wish I'd known earlier that he had a problem reading. I'd have stayed a little closer to him.

Post: #37

(03-20-2017 06:36 PM)Rocha Wrote:  9 out of 10 times, the bout would go to Ali.

Tyson was a beast, yes, but up until that loss to Buster Douglas (which is considered Tyson prime)

"Prime Tyson" ended when Tyson fired Kevin Rooney in late 1988, under pressure from Don King, shortly after the Spinks fight. Tyson was never again properly prepared for any fight.

(03-20-2017 03:48 PM)Poker Wrote:  One thing I think many forget is that Tyson was very fragile mentally while Ali was the king of mental games.

The reason why discussions of this sort are "problematic" has to do with the unusual nature of Tyson's career as a fighter. While most fighters can be described as consistently one thing or another--Floyd Mayweather, for example, was always mentally tough and always in shape for his fights--Tyson could be properly described as very mentally tough AND very mentally weak, having an exceptional defense AND being very easy to hit, having great stamina and poor stamina, being a great body-puncher and forgetting to target the body, etc. etc. depending specifically when you are discussing him. The very sad fact of the matter--for those of us who lived through it--is that Mike Tyson was on an upward arc toward becoming the best heavyweight who ever lived--when, in 1988, at the age of 22, he turned toward the dark side of the force, signed with The Anti-Cus (D'Amato)--Don King--fired his trainer Kevin Rooney, and--with plenty of encouragement of the worst kind from Don King--abandoned the training and discipline that had made him great, became a self-indulgent, substance-abusing party animal, and was never again the same fighter. Mike was a sitting duck for King in 1988 for personal reasons--his trainer and adoptive father had died in 1985, he had just broken up with his gold-digging wife, and his best friend and co-manager Jimmy Jacobs had died just prior to the Spinks fight.

To think of parallels I have to step outside boxing--what happened with John McEnroe after 1984 was a bit similar, although the fall was nowhere as far. Marlon Brando's failure to fulfill expectations after the early 1950s is reminiscent as well.

Post: #38

Tysons would knock his head off. Looks at pics of the two side by side.

Post: #39

I may be late in this discussion but neither Ali nor Tyson are in the same category as Rocky Marciano. Also, there's a fighter now who would give both guys a run for their money, Deontay Wilder, 38-0 (37KO). Today's guys are just too big and strong, Widler is 6-7", 230 pounds. Someone like Tyson wouldn't be able to get effectively through Wilder's monster 83" reach and the jab.





Also I am sick and tired of everyone worshipping Ali. If anyone has forgotten there is only 1 heavyweight champ in history who retired undefeated, and it is neither Tyson or Ali but IMHO the greatest fighter of all time, Rocky Marciano., 49-0 (43KO).
With his brutal fighting style he was Tyson before there was Tyson.




Marciano also is remembered for having probably the toughest chin in history, only going down twice in his career and both times more because of poor balancing at the moment than the actual punch.
Finally, Ali and Marciano did do an exhibition fight in the late 60s' from which various stats were inputted into a computer to predict what may happen in a real fight, and an out of shape, close to 50 year old Marciano according to spectators gave Ali all he could handle.

Post: #40

(04-02-2017 08:18 PM)TripleG Wrote:  I may be late in this discussion but neither Ali nor Tyson are in the same category as Rocky Marciano.

Here's one take on this from a boxing historian. Not saying he's right, but he probably knows a lot more about it than me.

"When looking at Marciano’s opponents one must ask the question “Is there one person that Marciano beat that Joe Frazier would not beat?” The answer is clearly no. Joe Frazier would have little trouble with Marciano’s opponents and would easily have gone 49-0 against them. Frazier’s only career defeats were to Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. How would Marciano have fared against Frazier’s opponents? Marciano would be an underdog to Ali and would likely lose a decision. Ali was more susceptible to a left hook, Frazier’s bread and butter punch, than he was to a right hand, which was Rocky’s best shot. Cus D’Amato once said that, “No swarming heavyweight who ever lived could beat George Foreman coming to him.” Marciano would have had the same trouble trying to get inside George’s long arms and massive uppercuts, as did the bobbing and weaving Frazier. It seems highly unlikely that Marciano could overcome the freakish power of the much larger Foreman in a slugfest. Frazier holds a win over Muhammad Ali and defeated other quality heavyweights such as Jerry Quarry who were superior to most of Marciano's competition. Had the two all time greats switched era's Frazier would have been 49-0 and Marciano would likely have had losses to Ali and Foreman on his record."

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html

Post: #41

Triple G.. why would deontay's reach matter? Today's guys are not too big and too soft...boxing has fallen off. Lennox Lewis had a longer reach than Deontay and they sparred when Lennox was still in Hamilton and around 19 years old. Tyson whupped that ass then. Using the reach theory is not good enough to just throw things in. Rocky Marciano not in the convo either, he would have got pummelled.

I still go with Ali, he beat some of the greatest to ever enter boxing.

Post: #42

I think it's impossible to say. My gut says Tyson because of his ability to penetrate defenses and find the chin. My money is on Ali because he pulled off some great victories in his time, especially when things went to the cards. Ali had the better resume and footwork. Tyson had the better raw power and speed. They were both good fighters when they needed to be. Ali had people around him that actually cared for him. Tyson didn't after Cus died. Unfortunately, they never fought. Long story shot; I would hope for a Tyson victory and put money on Ali to soften the blow.

Also... Deontay Wilder? Yeh right. Fury, Joshua and Klitschko would all absolutely murder him. And none of them held a candle to heavyweights of the golden era. Boxers duck fights now, it's a shame.

Post: #43

Wilder's last name is very appropriate. he fights like Anthony "rumble" johnson from MMA. I think wilder's main problem is that he is too wild. I don't think he could beat Tyson. I think Wilder has the fighting IQ of a wooden post. he would try to swing wildly, get juked and countered hard by a professional like Ali or Tyson. I also think Foreman could just go toe to toe with him. Foreman's insane Jab power was a nightmare for fighters who depend on closing the distance and getting a knock out.

I"d like to see Wilder vs Klitschko, Fury, Joshua or Briggs. Briggs would mostly be interesting just because he's well past his sell by date but guys seem to be afraid to fight him left and right.

Post: #44

I mean, it was against Cooney, but still, those jabs just put everyone on hold. You can't just walk through those foreman jabs.

Post: #45

(04-02-2017 09:36 PM)BrewDog Wrote:  

(04-02-2017 08:18 PM)TripleG Wrote:  I may be late in this discussion but neither Ali nor Tyson are in the same category as Rocky Marciano.

Here's one take on this from a boxing historian. Not saying he's right, but he probably knows a lot more about it than me.

"When looking at Marciano’s opponents one must ask the question “Is there one person that Marciano beat that Joe Frazier would not beat?” The answer is clearly no. Joe Frazier would have little trouble with Marciano’s opponents and would easily have gone 49-0 against them. Frazier’s only career defeats were to Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. How would Marciano have fared against Frazier’s opponents? Marciano would be an underdog to Ali and would likely lose a decision. Ali was more susceptible to a left hook, Frazier’s bread and butter punch, than he was to a right hand, which was Rocky’s best shot. Cus D’Amato once said that, “No swarming heavyweight who ever lived could beat George Foreman coming to him.” Marciano would have had the same trouble trying to get inside George’s long arms and massive uppercuts, as did the bobbing and weaving Frazier. It seems highly unlikely that Marciano could overcome the freakish power of the much larger Foreman in a slugfest. Frazier holds a win over Muhammad Ali and defeated other quality heavyweights such as Jerry Quarry who were superior to most of Marciano's competition. Had the two all time greats switched era's Frazier would have been 49-0 and Marciano would likely have had losses to Ali and Foreman on his record."

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html

It's interesting how even almost 50 years after his death people don't give Rocky Marciano the credit he deserves. As I mentioned before in a sparring session in 1969 Marciano went toe to toe with a prime Ali and held his own.
Also, he beat great fighters like Joe Luis and Archey Moore and to say that Frazier would beat these guys is not a given. It would be a 50/50 battle.
Finally, people forget that Ali was not a dominant puncher, only a little more than half of his fights were won by KO. Ali reminds me too much of Floyd Mayweather, a great showman and defensive fighter but could be boring at times and no KO power towards the end of his career. At least prime Tyson, even if he was missing, you always knew it would take him just one punch to KO anyone. Can you say the same about Ali?

Post: #46

A conversation about Ali vs Tyson, evolves into a discussion about Marciano.

Rocky aint in the conversation at all, well known that the mob fixed his fights and he fought stiffs.

I could make more of an argument for my favourite boxer, Jack Johnson being the greatest of all time.

Read about Sugar Ray Robinson and look how many fights he won.

Post: #47

Ali would want a rematch if he loss,

And Ali was not afraid to give rematches either, he never shy away from challenges.

It wouldn't be one match, it would be a trilogy.

Ali in 3 matches.

Similar to the thrilla in manila

Ali was mentally tougher, Tyson in his prime was mentally weaker. Ali would break him down over three trilogy fights.

Post: #48

(04-04-2017 08:38 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  A conversation about Ali vs Tyson, evolves into a discussion about Marciano.

Rocky aint in the conversation at all, well known that the mob fixed his fights and he fought stiffs.

I could make more of an argument for my favourite boxer, Jack Johnson being the greatest of all time.

Read about Sugar Ray Robinson and look how many fights he won.

Marciano was the greatest of his era. His fights weren't fixed, and he fought many people that would be champions today. The farther you go back in boxing, the tougher the guys actually were and the higher the competition was.

Ali is without a doubt the greatest of all time. He defeated so many guys that were beyond good, hence the whole reference to the golden age of boxing. He simply destroyed Liston, and this was a guy that was a mob enforcer and used to beat up police officers. He beat Frazier twice, who would have been champ in any era he fought in. He beat Foreman in his prime, who was still knocking out guys decades later in his 50's. Ali could take a punch like no ones business. He was also the smartest and most fluid fighter boxing has ever seen.

Tyson wasn't even the best boxer of his era. Lennox Lewis was. Tyson was too busy fucking everything in sight in Japan that he lost to Douglas. He got destroyed in what was it, 6 rounds, by Lewis?

What happened to Ali after the government destroyed his chances at boxing for years? He came back stronger and had even more dramatic victories.

What happened to Tyson after he got locked up? He started lifting, got slower, and was never the same again.

Boxing is a game of mental toughness beyond anything I've experienced personally. Ali had such a strong mind that no man could shake him.

This is coming from a BIG fan of Tyson, both in and out of the ring. I like the guy a lot despite all the shit tied to his name, so keep that in mind.

Post: #49

^Please tell me who he fought?

The Mob was heavily involved in all his fights.

Maybe use google some more before you talk nonsense.

Post: #50

(04-05-2017 03:57 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  ^Please tell me who he fought?

The Mob was heavily involved in all his fights.

Maybe use google some more before you talk nonsense.

Joe Louis? The man that is considered the greatest boxer of all time by boxing experts? Let me guess, you're going to say Louis was old when he fought or the fight was also fixed.

Joe Walcott?

Archie Moore?

But before I even get into any discussion of boxing history, why don't we talk about my "nonsense".

Have you ever even boxed beyond going to a gym and throwing some jabs at some mitts? Keep in mind that any reputable gym asks new members to practice technique, mitts, and bags for at least a few months before even allowing light controlled sparring.

I actually have boxed. I've bloodied lips and noses. I've also been hit so hard I've had a light flash before my eyes and hit the ground. I've also picked blood out of my nose the day after sparring (hint: the blood is actually black the day after).

Have you done any of that?

Don't call me out on "nonsense" when you are a boxing KJ. Gain 15 pounds then spar with a heavyweight that knows what they are doing and tell me more about how a guy that never lost a fight and was knocking guys through the ropes was fixed by the mob.

Is it because he was Italian? Or maybe because you're black and can't believe a white boxer would be that good?

I never said Rocky Marciano was the best boxer ever, and he would have been crushed by either Ali or Tyson. But that doesn't mean he was garbage either just because of his style.

Is this you, I can't tell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LPddiQXD9c