Post: #26

@Darktriad. If it wasnt for the Lend Lease Act and American support the Soviets would have fallen to the Nazis. So why all of a sudden did the Soviets become the enemy when they were allies before?

Its just like Islamic terrorism. I dont think they are a real threat to America. The west can crush them completely if they so wish.

Post: #27

The Vietnam War is just evidence that if you let something escalate then radicals usurp it. It's kind of like how the Syrian opposition started off as social conservatives and then degenerated into ISIS.

In Vietnam's case, at least in a lot of documentaries and books, a bunch of sources imply Ho Chi Minh was a Social Democrat after WW2 and even came to the U.S. for support to create a full democracy. But it was France and former colonial bureaucrats (Vietnamese ones) who wanted to go back to the old days. Then later on the U.S. gave full support to Diem who was a total jerk to everyone around. So Ho Chi Minh became more authoritarian and radical as the years went on.


And I wonder how well Vietnam would had done if it did become a democracy in 1945? Thailand was never Communist but their standard of living was always really low until tourism went into full drive (and even then a lot of Thai people still live in poverty). Never mind Philippines is poor as well.

This isn't that widely known but the Communist Asian countries were doing better than Republic of Korea and Philippines in standard of living throughout the Cold War. Even North Korea was doing better than South Korea for most of the Cold War. It was really just Japan that had a good standard of living.

But now Vietnam (as most people know) wants to get in on that tourism money that Thailand gets a lot off. Granted there's some downsides to it. Like maybe your daughter gets a job at a barber shop but it turns out they give more handjobs / blowjobs than haircuts there...

Post: #28

Didn't know that StrikeBack was a Vietnamese kinsman! I always knew that when you have an alpha Asian marrying a submissive white chick it just has to be a Vietnamese Those nerdy Chinese or girlies Korean just couldn't pull that off

Then again Strikeback's post just goes to show how the account of the war differs vastly depends on which side you are on, even among the Vietnamese themselves. At least we do agree on the nature of the Vietnamese people: unruly, aggressive bunch with a huge attitude vs foreign authority and a big tribal mentality. Frankly this aggressive drive is channeled very well during our numerous wars and now that peace has been restored this urge has not been suppressed. Just google Vietnamese street violence to see how they start fighting each other when there's no foreigners to fight.

Those of you who are interested in the war should also study the Mongol invasion of Vietnam and see the patterns of organized resistance that was repeated during the Vietnam war. Cool story: when the Mongols invaded, the King was scared shitless and summoned a gathering to discuss options of surrender. Instead, the elders present at the gathering told the king to man the fuck up and kill all dem Mongols horse-fuckers. By the meeting's end everybody was tattooing "kill the Mongols" on their arm and chanting the same motto. The commander-in-chief, cousin of the king, then wrote a fuck-long drama piece letter to address all his generals and soldiers, basically telling them they are a bunch of pussified fucktards for even thinking about peace and not preparing for war. This kind of propaganda tactics were again used extensively among the VCs to boost morale.

Post: #29

Slightly ahead of this time period - any of our Viet bros here ever read Graham Greene's book The Quiet American? It's set (and was written) in 1950s Vietnam, and very chillingly predicted the Vietnam War in some respects.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #30

Instead of wasting time in Asia fighting communism, America should have been fighting the Soviet threat in Rhodesia, South Africa and the rest of the continent. Now look...

Post: #31

Vietnam really was a Rubicon moment for global superpowers/empires in the modern age if you ask me.

Under the spotlight of the media, it is just simply impossible to quell and subjugate a population that doesn't want to be quelled, without resorting to tactics that ancient Empires had no qualms about employing.

Post: #32

(08-31-2018 04:01 AM)BaatumMania Wrote:  The Vietnam War is just evidence that if you let something escalate then radicals usurp it. It's kind of like how the Syrian opposition started off as social conservatives and then degenerated into ISIS.

In Vietnam's case, at least in a lot of documentaries and books, a bunch of sources imply Ho Chi Minh was a Social Democrat after WW2 and even came to the U.S. for support to create a full democracy. But it was France and former colonial bureaucrats (Vietnamese ones) who wanted to go back to the old days. Then later on the U.S. gave full support to Diem who was a total jerk to everyone around. So Ho Chi Minh became more authoritarian and radical as the years went on.


And I wonder how well Vietnam would had done if it did become a democracy in 1945? Thailand was never Communist but their standard of living was always really low until tourism went into full drive (and even then a lot of Thai people still live in poverty). Never mind Philippines is poor as well.

This isn't that widely known but the Communist Asian countries were doing better than Republic of Korea and Philippines in standard of living throughout the Cold War. Even North Korea was doing better than South Korea for most of the Cold War.

It isn't that widely known because it isn't true. South Korea and Thailand may have not been nearly as wealthy as the West, but they didn't have the mass famines and killings that China and Cambodia had.

Post: #33

(08-31-2018 08:48 AM)Saweeep Wrote:  Vietnam really was a Rubicon moment for global superpowers/empires in the modern age if you ask me.

Under the spotlight of the media, it is just simply impossible to quell and subjugate a population that doesn't want to be quelled, without resorting to tactics that ancient Empires had no qualms about employing.

This.

Slaughtering population wholesale to have them submit basically.

Which is basically war crimes in the modern world and impossible to hide.

Can't use old ancient tactics like that anymore.

Post: #34

Have you ever wondered how the French got back Vietnam after they got their arses kicked in WW2?

Tommy vs. Charlie – Britain’s Forgotten Six-Month War in Vietnam

Quote:In September 1945 just after VJ Day, a brigade of 20,000 British and Indian troops landed in Saigon. The task force’s mission was three fold: to oversee the final surrender of the Japanese army in Indo China, to evacuate freed Allied POWs from the area and to maintain order until French administrators could resume control of the colony. Ideally, France would have led the mission, but with Western Europe still reeling from years of Nazi occupation, Paris was in no condition to launch such an operation. Instead, Allied planners turned to Great Britain to hold the line.

To Maj. Gen. Douglas Gracey, the British commander of the Allied Land Forces Indo China (ALFIC), the deployment must have seemed like a welcome change from the years of bloody jungle fighting he’d overseen during the Burma campaign. Yet for the 51-year-old veteran of Britain’s Indian Army, the post war mission to Vietnam, code named Operation Masterdom, would quickly turn violent, becoming one of the most astonishing and little-known footnotes to the Second World War.

Gracey’s British and Indian troops would become the first westerners to cross swords with the Vietnamese communists, an army that would later go onto to vanquish the French and humble the United States.

Amazingly, the Anglo-Indo intervention force would fight with help not only from freed Allied and colonial POWs, but also rearmed Japanese soldiers who only weeks before had themselves been the enemy.

Opening Moves

When the British Indian stabilization force arrived in Saigon on Sept. 13, the city was anything but stable. Rioting and looting were rampant. Worse, communist guerrillas, known as the Viet Minh, had marched in immediately following Japan’s defeat and started slaughtering anyone they considered to be counter revolutionaries, collaborators or imperialist lackeys.

To make matters worse, Japanese troops throughout the region refused to lay down their arms in accordance with Tokyo’s surrender and continued to occupy their wartime strongholds. The former occupiers, surrounded by a hostile population and with no way to get home, remained ever vigilant for reprisals.

Gracey immediately declared martial law. His forces fanned out across the city forcing out the Viet Minh to make room for the returning French administrators. He went so far as to deputize the remaining Japanese troops to help his troops restore order. A series of bloody clashes with the communists ensued. But by the Sept. 23, the French authorities had reestablished their administration of the city, under the protection of the British and Indians. French and colonial POWs were rearmed and formed into regiments to help with the security. Order was restored. Or was it?

Shots Fired

Things were unfolding largely according to plan until Sept. 25. That’s when the communists struck back.

Unwilling to trade Japanese occupiers for European imperialists, the Viet Minh kicked off a fresh guerrilla war against the French authorities and their British protectors.

Insurgent attacks broke out all across Saigon. The guerrillas even launched a raid against British troops at Tan Son Nhut airport where Viet Minh clashed with the defenders in a pre-dawn assault, losing six men in the process. One British Gurkha was killed in the encounter. It was only the beginning. More attacks would follow in the coming days.

For the most part, British and Indian troops, fresh form fighting against the Japanese in Burma made short work of the rag tag guerrillas. Allied casualties were light, however the communists were taking a pounding. By early October, the Viet Minh had agreed with Gracey to a ceasefire. It was soon broken. On Oct. 10, the communists massacred a detachment of British engineers in one raid. It was a stunning escalation.

More Troops Arrive

With the security situation deteriorating rapidly, the British brought in reinforcements: The 32nd Infantry Brigade and an Indian light armour regiment joined the mission. And as long as the Viet Minh attacks were preventing the British from the orderly repatriation of the remnants of the Japanese army, Gracey continued to rely on them for assistance.

As it would turn out, he’d need all the help he could get.

On Oct. 13, the insurgents unleashed a fresh series of raids on targets in an around Saigon. Again, they were repelled by British, Indian, French colonial and even Japanese troops. An estimated 500 Viet Minh were killed in this newest round of attacks.

The Allies, recognizing the need to regain the initiative, went on the offensive. By the end of October, Gracey organized an operation to clear a ring of insurgents from around the city. The mission to lift the siege would include Indian infantry, artillery and armour, as well as a battalion of Japanese troops. The combined operation killed more than 200 insurgents. Allied losses were minimal.

Sporadic clashes would continue throughout November and December in the central highlands north of Saigon.

The largest encounter of the Anglo Indian foray in Vietnam occurred on Jan. 3, 1946, 40 kilometers north east of Saigon at Bien Hoa. Nearly 1,000 communist guerrillas launched an assault on a British and Indian stronghold there, but were repulsed in a firefight that lasted the entire night. Nearly 100 insurgents were mowed down by machine gun fire without the loss of a single Allied soldier.

Passing the Torch

As the winter wore on, British forces were gradually withdrawn and the French military took over security. The Japanese soldiers were also disarmed and sent home. By May, the last of the Indian and British combat troops had departed bringing Operation Masterdom to a close.

From that point on and until 1954, the war in Vietnam would be an exclusively French colonial conflict.

For their part, the British lost 40 troops. Japanese and French casualties were roughly equal to that. The Viet Minh had suffered more than 2,500 dead. They would be the first the fall. Over the next 30 years, more than 2 million would die in the intractable and tragic war that engulfed all of Indo China.

Post: #35

(08-29-2018 07:30 PM)beta_plus Wrote:  Other perspectives:

This monodrone is rubbish.

And some guys like it??

Post: #36

Jesus, was there anyone that didn't fight in Vietnam? Believe it or not, even the Wehrmacht and SS fought in Vietnam. After the WWII, the only escape for many German soldiers was joining the French Foreign Legion, and a French saying for that era went something like "We will fight in Vietnam to last German!"

Post: #37

How bad was it for the Vietnamese during French occupation? Did the French abuse and exploit the locals?

Post: #38

(09-01-2018 12:15 AM)WalterBlack Wrote:  Have you ever wondered how the French got back Vietnam after they got their arses kicked in WW2?

Tommy vs. Charlie – Britain’s Forgotten Six-Month War in Vietnam

Quote:In September 1945 just after VJ Day, a brigade of 20,000 British and Indian troops landed in Saigon. The task force’s mission was three fold: to oversee the final surrender of the Japanese army in Indo China, to evacuate freed Allied POWs from the area and to maintain order until French administrators could resume control of the colony. Ideally, France would have led the mission, but with Western Europe still reeling from years of Nazi occupation, Paris was in no condition to launch such an operation. Instead, Allied planners turned to Great Britain to hold the line.

To Maj. Gen. Douglas Gracey, the British commander of the Allied Land Forces Indo China (ALFIC), the deployment must have seemed like a welcome change from the years of bloody jungle fighting he’d overseen during the Burma campaign. Yet for the 51-year-old veteran of Britain’s Indian Army, the post war mission to Vietnam, code named Operation Masterdom, would quickly turn violent, becoming one of the most astonishing and little-known footnotes to the Second World War.

Gracey’s British and Indian troops would become the first westerners to cross swords with the Vietnamese communists, an army that would later go onto to vanquish the French and humble the United States.

Amazingly, the Anglo-Indo intervention force would fight with help not only from freed Allied and colonial POWs, but also rearmed Japanese soldiers who only weeks before had themselves been the enemy.

Opening Moves

When the British Indian stabilization force arrived in Saigon on Sept. 13, the city was anything but stable. Rioting and looting were rampant. Worse, communist guerrillas, known as the Viet Minh, had marched in immediately following Japan’s defeat and started slaughtering anyone they considered to be counter revolutionaries, collaborators or imperialist lackeys.

To make matters worse, Japanese troops throughout the region refused to lay down their arms in accordance with Tokyo’s surrender and continued to occupy their wartime strongholds. The former occupiers, surrounded by a hostile population and with no way to get home, remained ever vigilant for reprisals.

Gracey immediately declared martial law. His forces fanned out across the city forcing out the Viet Minh to make room for the returning French administrators. He went so far as to deputize the remaining Japanese troops to help his troops restore order. A series of bloody clashes with the communists ensued. But by the Sept. 23, the French authorities had reestablished their administration of the city, under the protection of the British and Indians. French and colonial POWs were rearmed and formed into regiments to help with the security. Order was restored. Or was it?

Shots Fired

Things were unfolding largely according to plan until Sept. 25. That’s when the communists struck back.

Unwilling to trade Japanese occupiers for European imperialists, the Viet Minh kicked off a fresh guerrilla war against the French authorities and their British protectors.

Insurgent attacks broke out all across Saigon. The guerrillas even launched a raid against British troops at Tan Son Nhut airport where Viet Minh clashed with the defenders in a pre-dawn assault, losing six men in the process. One British Gurkha was killed in the encounter. It was only the beginning. More attacks would follow in the coming days.

For the most part, British and Indian troops, fresh form fighting against the Japanese in Burma made short work of the rag tag guerrillas. Allied casualties were light, however the communists were taking a pounding. By early October, the Viet Minh had agreed with Gracey to a ceasefire. It was soon broken. On Oct. 10, the communists massacred a detachment of British engineers in one raid. It was a stunning escalation.

More Troops Arrive

With the security situation deteriorating rapidly, the British brought in reinforcements: The 32nd Infantry Brigade and an Indian light armour regiment joined the mission. And as long as the Viet Minh attacks were preventing the British from the orderly repatriation of the remnants of the Japanese army, Gracey continued to rely on them for assistance.

As it would turn out, he’d need all the help he could get.

On Oct. 13, the insurgents unleashed a fresh series of raids on targets in an around Saigon. Again, they were repelled by British, Indian, French colonial and even Japanese troops. An estimated 500 Viet Minh were killed in this newest round of attacks.

The Allies, recognizing the need to regain the initiative, went on the offensive. By the end of October, Gracey organized an operation to clear a ring of insurgents from around the city. The mission to lift the siege would include Indian infantry, artillery and armour, as well as a battalion of Japanese troops. The combined operation killed more than 200 insurgents. Allied losses were minimal.

Sporadic clashes would continue throughout November and December in the central highlands north of Saigon.

The largest encounter of the Anglo Indian foray in Vietnam occurred on Jan. 3, 1946, 40 kilometers north east of Saigon at Bien Hoa. Nearly 1,000 communist guerrillas launched an assault on a British and Indian stronghold there, but were repulsed in a firefight that lasted the entire night. Nearly 100 insurgents were mowed down by machine gun fire without the loss of a single Allied soldier.

Passing the Torch

As the winter wore on, British forces were gradually withdrawn and the French military took over security. The Japanese soldiers were also disarmed and sent home. By May, the last of the Indian and British combat troops had departed bringing Operation Masterdom to a close.

From that point on and until 1954, the war in Vietnam would be an exclusively French colonial conflict.

For their part, the British lost 40 troops. Japanese and French casualties were roughly equal to that. The Viet Minh had suffered more than 2,500 dead. They would be the first the fall. Over the next 30 years, more than 2 million would die in the intractable and tragic war that engulfed all of Indo China.

Wasn't the last British involvement.

My Grandad on my Mum's side was army intelligence and privately and with family determined Britain should join the US-Vietnam war.

From what he let on (official secrets act) Britain did in a tiny way.

Units of SAS operated with NZ army uniforms and no dog-tags mainly along the Ho Chi Minh trail outside Vietnamese borders.

They were the first to locate a Viet-Cong base in Laos that was bombed and a major dent in Viet Cong manpower.

They were also supposedly the ones that located the POW sites in Laos at the end of the war that the US govt. kept quiet and did nothing about, in turn betraying those captive men.

Post: #39

(09-01-2018 03:05 AM)Pride male Wrote:  How bad was it for the Vietnamese during French occupation? Did the French abuse and exploit the locals?

The little that I know.. the French went in for Corvee - forced labour.

I believe that it was there before the French arrived but its one thing for a local head man to negotiate to give so many villagers for a certain amount of time to an emperor of the same race's great works..

Its another thing to be on a Khmer or a Viet chain gang breaking rocks in the midday sun whilst French overseers strut around you.

Post: #40

(08-31-2018 04:01 AM)BaatumMania Wrote:  The Vietnam War is just evidence that if you let something escalate then radicals usurp it. It's kind of like how the Syrian opposition started off as social conservatives and then degenerated into ISIS.

In Vietnam's case, at least in a lot of documentaries and books, a bunch of sources imply Ho Chi Minh was a Social Democrat after WW2 and even came to the U.S. for support to create a full democracy. But it was France and former colonial bureaucrats (Vietnamese ones) who wanted to go back to the old days. Then later on the U.S. gave full support to Diem who was a total jerk to everyone around. So Ho Chi Minh became more authoritarian and radical as the years went on.

Same goes for Afghanistan, to supply Osama bin Laden and the Mujahedin against the Sovjets but after they won let them alone and radicalise.
I'm not American nor did I spent a great amount of time there, but I work for an American company. What I notice, you guys can correct me, for me it seems that Americans lack the way of long term thinking.
Great hands on mentality, also smart and improve a lot of things. But with Vietnam, Afghanistan the Gulf War, then Iraq and Afghanistan again, there is a lack of long term strategy as it seems.

Post: #41

(09-01-2018 04:26 AM)Bienvenuto Wrote:  

(09-01-2018 03:05 AM)Pride male Wrote:  How bad was it for the Vietnamese during French occupation? Did the French abuse and exploit the locals?

The little that I know.. the French went in for Corvee - forced labour.

I believe that it was there before the French arrived but its one thing for a local head man to negotiate to give so many villagers for a certain amount of time to an emperor of the same race's great works..

Its another thing to be on a Khmer or a Viet chain gang breaking rocks in the midday sun whilst French overseers strut around you.

I would be surprised if there was a pasty Frenchmen sipping a lemonade watching coolies build ditches and roads.

My impression of French Indochina was it had a lot of similarities to British Raj. They tolerated the Emperor staying in power, there were various princes all over, some weird Cult in the South and tribal leaders / Chieftains. The French pretty much left most of those people to their devices and only cared about getting money and getting free laborers.

There were probably Vietnamese bureaucrats that became filthy rich but I don't know any off the top of my head.


I do know in the British Empire the wealthiest man on the planet at the time was just some random Indian Prince.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_Osman_Ali_Khan

Post: #42

(09-01-2018 03:05 AM)Pride male Wrote:  How bad was it for the Vietnamese during French occupation? Did the French abuse and exploit the locals?

If I had to make an educated guess, I would draw a parallel with French West African colonies (shitholes) to British African Colonies (relative stability).

Post: #43

For an interesting 'boots on the ground' perspective, I would highly recommend Nam Sense - Artie Wiknik. One man's attempt to make it through a tour in Vietnam. Very candid account of his personal trials and tribulations, he talks about all he did to keep his head down and make it out, while looking out for the men in his charge. Friendships, being branded a 'baby-killer' while on R&R, run-ins with 'lifers', the disintegration of unit cohesion when the army started to accomodate black separatists, and fighting the Vietnamese. A thoroughly engrossing read.

Another great book is We Were Soldiers Once... and Young, the book on which the film "We Were Soldiers" is based. A harrowing read, but very compelling.

Post: #44

I started watching the Vietnam War documentary PBS put out by Ken Burns yesterday after reading a little of this thread. I've always been interested in Cold War American history because I don't feel like it was remotely covered in school when I was being taught American history. I remember near the end of the school year in class, we covered everything in more detail pre-WWII and when we got to the Vietnam War, we glossed over it because textbooks just didn't have it out. My teacher even acknowledged America really didn't like to talk about this time period.

I'm only part of the way through, but I've gone deeper into information of this time period now. What I'm realizing is I had no idea just how fucked and complicated Vietnam was for how long. One quote in the documentary by a veteran on the Vietnamese side was quoted basically saying war had no winners and losers. Only people killed. I really agree with this the more I watch. Everyone in some way has been portrayed as having blood on their hands from the French to the Japanese, Americans, and even all sides in native Vietnam. They even addressed Ho Chi Minh, who is portrayed as the big nationalist to lead an independence movement but also willing to get blood on his hands by killing and imprisoning some innocent.

I thought this was a great way to address it. I looked at America as the villain of the war for a while, but I'm realizing now that it was probably a lot more complicated, with nobody being completely innocent. But, that's probably true in all of human history, which in a weird way connects us and makes us realize we're not all that different.

This makes me appreciate more what Vietnam is now, considering they're gaining a rep as an up and coming popular country for more expats to relocate too and they seem to have an insane amount of more stability than the baby boomer and beyond generations did. Still have to watch the rest of the documentary and I plan on binging it.

Post: #45

I was speaking to an Aussie Vet (old guy) recently.

He was saying that he saw some bad things done by his side but when he went through the villages the VC and NVA had been through it was of a different scale: "those guys were just butchers."

Supposedly mass graves of their executions keep being found and apparently the day after they liberated Hue they massacred between 3,000 and 5,000 'collaborators'.

Post: #46

(09-01-2018 03:12 AM)Bienvenuto Wrote:  

(09-01-2018 12:15 AM)WalterBlack Wrote:  Have you ever wondered how the French got back Vietnam after they got their arses kicked in WW2?

Tommy vs. Charlie – Britain’s Forgotten Six-Month War in Vietnam

Quote:In September 1945 just after VJ Day, a brigade of 20,000 British and Indian troops landed in Saigon. The task force’s mission was three fold: to oversee the final surrender of the Japanese army in Indo China, to evacuate freed Allied POWs from the area and to maintain order until French administrators could resume control of the colony. Ideally, France would have led the mission, but with Western Europe still reeling from years of Nazi occupation, Paris was in no condition to launch such an operation. Instead, Allied planners turned to Great Britain to hold the line.

To Maj. Gen. Douglas Gracey, the British commander of the Allied Land Forces Indo China (ALFIC), the deployment must have seemed like a welcome change from the years of bloody jungle fighting he’d overseen during the Burma campaign. Yet for the 51-year-old veteran of Britain’s Indian Army, the post war mission to Vietnam, code named Operation Masterdom, would quickly turn violent, becoming one of the most astonishing and little-known footnotes to the Second World War.

Gracey’s British and Indian troops would become the first westerners to cross swords with the Vietnamese communists, an army that would later go onto to vanquish the French and humble the United States.

Amazingly, the Anglo-Indo intervention force would fight with help not only from freed Allied and colonial POWs, but also rearmed Japanese soldiers who only weeks before had themselves been the enemy.

Opening Moves

When the British Indian stabilization force arrived in Saigon on Sept. 13, the city was anything but stable. Rioting and looting were rampant. Worse, communist guerrillas, known as the Viet Minh, had marched in immediately following Japan’s defeat and started slaughtering anyone they considered to be counter revolutionaries, collaborators or imperialist lackeys.

To make matters worse, Japanese troops throughout the region refused to lay down their arms in accordance with Tokyo’s surrender and continued to occupy their wartime strongholds. The former occupiers, surrounded by a hostile population and with no way to get home, remained ever vigilant for reprisals.

Gracey immediately declared martial law. His forces fanned out across the city forcing out the Viet Minh to make room for the returning French administrators. He went so far as to deputize the remaining Japanese troops to help his troops restore order. A series of bloody clashes with the communists ensued. But by the Sept. 23, the French authorities had reestablished their administration of the city, under the protection of the British and Indians. French and colonial POWs were rearmed and formed into regiments to help with the security. Order was restored. Or was it?

Shots Fired

Things were unfolding largely according to plan until Sept. 25. That’s when the communists struck back.

Unwilling to trade Japanese occupiers for European imperialists, the Viet Minh kicked off a fresh guerrilla war against the French authorities and their British protectors.

Insurgent attacks broke out all across Saigon. The guerrillas even launched a raid against British troops at Tan Son Nhut airport where Viet Minh clashed with the defenders in a pre-dawn assault, losing six men in the process. One British Gurkha was killed in the encounter. It was only the beginning. More attacks would follow in the coming days.

For the most part, British and Indian troops, fresh form fighting against the Japanese in Burma made short work of the rag tag guerrillas. Allied casualties were light, however the communists were taking a pounding. By early October, the Viet Minh had agreed with Gracey to a ceasefire. It was soon broken. On Oct. 10, the communists massacred a detachment of British engineers in one raid. It was a stunning escalation.

More Troops Arrive

With the security situation deteriorating rapidly, the British brought in reinforcements: The 32nd Infantry Brigade and an Indian light armour regiment joined the mission. And as long as the Viet Minh attacks were preventing the British from the orderly repatriation of the remnants of the Japanese army, Gracey continued to rely on them for assistance.

As it would turn out, he’d need all the help he could get.

On Oct. 13, the insurgents unleashed a fresh series of raids on targets in an around Saigon. Again, they were repelled by British, Indian, French colonial and even Japanese troops. An estimated 500 Viet Minh were killed in this newest round of attacks.

The Allies, recognizing the need to regain the initiative, went on the offensive. By the end of October, Gracey organized an operation to clear a ring of insurgents from around the city. The mission to lift the siege would include Indian infantry, artillery and armour, as well as a battalion of Japanese troops. The combined operation killed more than 200 insurgents. Allied losses were minimal.

Sporadic clashes would continue throughout November and December in the central highlands north of Saigon.

The largest encounter of the Anglo Indian foray in Vietnam occurred on Jan. 3, 1946, 40 kilometers north east of Saigon at Bien Hoa. Nearly 1,000 communist guerrillas launched an assault on a British and Indian stronghold there, but were repulsed in a firefight that lasted the entire night. Nearly 100 insurgents were mowed down by machine gun fire without the loss of a single Allied soldier.

Passing the Torch

As the winter wore on, British forces were gradually withdrawn and the French military took over security. The Japanese soldiers were also disarmed and sent home. By May, the last of the Indian and British combat troops had departed bringing Operation Masterdom to a close.

From that point on and until 1954, the war in Vietnam would be an exclusively French colonial conflict.

For their part, the British lost 40 troops. Japanese and French casualties were roughly equal to that. The Viet Minh had suffered more than 2,500 dead. They would be the first the fall. Over the next 30 years, more than 2 million would die in the intractable and tragic war that engulfed all of Indo China.

Wasn't the last British involvement.

My Grandad on my Mum's side was army intelligence and privately and with family determined Britain should join the US-Vietnam war.

From what he let on (official secrets act) Britain did in a tiny way.

Units of SAS operated with NZ army uniforms and no dog-tags mainly along the Ho Chi Minh trail outside Vietnamese borders.

They were the first to locate a Viet-Cong base in Laos that was bombed and a major dent in Viet Cong manpower.

They were also supposedly the ones that located the POW sites in Laos at the end of the war that the US govt. kept quiet and did nothing about, in turn betraying those captive men.

Dammit. As I was watching 'The Vietnam War' documentary, I remember thinking to myself; 'Wow, this actually looks like something we (the British) didn't have a part in for once!'. At least it seems like we had the rare good sense to get out quickly and hand it over to the poor French.

That part about the Brits working alongside the Japanese just weeks after VJ Day was incredible. Pleased my Grandad isn't alive to hear that, he wouldn't have been happy.

Once again, this forum delivers. As good as any of these historical documentaries are (and this was a good one), they can never, ever be taken at face value. There's always wider context, hidden bias and sometimes just simply a lack of space to fit everything in and gems like the ones on this thread are left out.

Post: #47

(09-01-2018 09:23 AM)ed pluribus unum Wrote:  

(09-01-2018 03:05 AM)Pride male Wrote:  How bad was it for the Vietnamese during French occupation? Did the French abuse and exploit the locals?

If I had to make an educated guess, I would draw a parallel with French West African colonies (shitholes) to British African Colonies (relative stability).

Wrong.


Indochina was the second largest exporter of coal in Asia and had a lively mining industry.

It was a major exporter of a variety of high-value agricultural crops such as rubber (think Michelin), coffee, tea, sugar, tobacco…



Dozens of thousands of acres of land were claimed from the swamps and put in cultivation. In a matter of decades, Indochina became the second largest rice exporter… in the world!



It also boasted a burgeoning industrial sector.



Vietnam was the single most profitable territory in the French empire. It was a major contributor to the economy of France!

Post: #48

^So its a case of we want to rule ourselves even if it means poverty and be free of prosperous colonialism?

Post: #49

(09-03-2018 03:59 AM)Tresor Wrote:  

(09-01-2018 09:23 AM)ed pluribus unum Wrote:  

(09-01-2018 03:05 AM)Pride male Wrote:  How bad was it for the Vietnamese during French occupation? Did the French abuse and exploit the locals?

If I had to make an educated guess, I would draw a parallel with French West African colonies (shitholes) to British African Colonies (relative stability).

Wrong.

...
Vietnam was the single most profitable territory in the French empire. It was a major contributor to the economy of France!

I think you're missing the point of what I was trying to communicate. The original question was 'how bad was it for the Vietnamese'. While I do not dispute any of the points you bring up, you reinforce the idea that Indochine was a merely a territory to be plundered by France.

My hastily-typed post sought to draw a parallel with French colonies in Africa vs. British colonial Kenya or even India. Although the Brits were in it for the resources, they installed natives as administrators, created infrastructure, transportation networks etc. The French imported their colonial administrators and the locals were simply the heavy labour, and when they pulled out they left nothing of substance.

Post: #50

Well take the profitability claims with a grain of salt. I'm almost certain both the British Empire and French Empire were net losses.

Why? They both had to build huge battleship fleets (and later carriers) and never mind station garrisons throughout their Empires. These were things that often took 5% - 40% of their GDP.

How many wheel barrows of bananas and coconuts do you need to just pay for 1 battleship artillery shell. 100?

Not sure about France but the lifestyle in Britain for a long time was really garbage. It's why so many British people emigrated to USA, Australia and Canada. Lifestyle in Britain greatly improved after the 1950s when decolonization meant Britain could now afford a welfare state.