Post: #1

I am having problems with having no energy in the evenings after work/uni and being sluggish in the mornings as well. I tried different things, but I am not sure what is wrong. My profile:

Age - low 20s
Height - 6'3"
Weight - 165
BF - 12-14? (abs somewhat visible)
Diet - on bulking diet. Targeting 4000 kcal. High protein and high fat. A lot of dairy.
Gym - going to the gym. Doing squats, overhead press, rows, dips, pullups etc

Supplements:
Animal pak and animal pak flex (multivitamin and joint product)
Vitamin D - 10000
Zinc with magnesium - 60 mg
Biotin
Omega 3 mega dose
Started creatine just recently

Any ideas? Maybe I need to get T checked?

Post: #2

What time do you go to bed, how long do you sleep and how well?

I would always start with improving the amount and/or quality of sleep for any energy-related problems.

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold

Post: #3

Dairy's probably not gonna help... it's insulinemic (spikes insulin, which sends you to sleep).

Other than that, perhaps you're overtraining?

When I go heavy on the big barbell lifts I always end up pretty tired. They do take it out of you.

Something lighter like kettlebell swings are less fatiguing and will wake you up. They'll keep your glutes/hams strong too (yep, really) if you want to lay off the squats/deads for a bit.

Maybe take a week off, and come back to it fresh?

Also, bedtime? If you're not getting to bed before 12pm on that lifting regime and getting a solid 8 hrs, you're probably under slept.

Post: #4

In early 20s, low T to the point where it is causing fatigue is extremely rare (unless you are coming off of a cycle, and natural T production hasn't yet recovered).

A bulking/high-protein diet will often cause fatigue if you are engaging in an active lifestyle beyond the gym. If you don't mind self-medicating, Modafinil on a day-on, day-off basis could bring your energy levels back to what you expect.

Also, and I know it's unfashionable to say due to the current Paleo trend, but a lot of people aren't getting enough carbs.
Carbs can be risky if you're sedentary, but absolutely vital if you're an active, fit person.

As a fuel source, the body uses fat very inefficiently - ketosis effectively wastes 60-70% of calories consumed, relative to equivalent amount of calories consumed as sugars. For this reason, low-carb diets are uncommon in elite sports which require a degree of stamina.

Post: #5

Get your T checked ASAP.

Post: #6

Also get your iron and thyroid levels checked ASAP, any medical clinic can do it for you.

Post: #7

Sounds like you are suffering from low testosterone.

Post: #8

Low T issues... and Check your sleep cycle... how much time and the quality of sleep matters.
Just before going to bed, spend 10-15 minutes meditating (good if you drift off to sleep)... for meditation, focus on your breath (deep breathing) or count backwards from 100 -1. This will aid in sleeping issues.

Post: #9

Maybe it the lack of available poosy bringing you down.
What's it like gaming in Vatican City?

Post: #10

Add lugols iodine and some magnesium to that protocol.

Also 3 cups if green tea a day. Liver tabs.

Grapes and an apple and green tea for breakfast always leave me feeling good to go.

Try doing some meditation daily too. Even ten minutes in corpse pose can recharge your batteries.

Post: #11

Having low T shouldn't be a problem for someone in there 20s, I think people are looking for an excuse to take Testosterone.

Post: #12

(12-05-2013 10:19 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  Sounds like you are suffering from low testosterone.

Not trying to crash the thread but I'm worried that I might be dealing with this. A couple of weeks back I noticed a real drop off in libido, no more morning wood, etc. I've been trying to increase the length/quality of my sleep (making room darker) but it hasn't been great. I don't seem to get much of that nice deep sleep right before you wake up when you have vivid dreams.

I'm not sure if I could be overtraining or if I possibly packed on too much belly fat while bulking on SS and that is causing an increase in aromatase.

Post: #13

You're too young for low T. It's probably stress related.
Just take a break for a month and recoup.

Post: #14

Low t can affect any man at any age.

Don't think. Do.

Get Blood work done.

Post: #15

As much as I love the advice here, I would not blame it on low Test until you go to your doctor and get the proper blood work done.

I discovered I was massively deficient in vitamin D. Started supplementing that and all went better.

Have you considered taking melatonin before bed? I take 60 mg along with some ZMA and GABA. Melatonin seriously makes me sleep like a rock.

Also, it's seasonal too. Depending on where in the country you are. Just hold steady and keep your routine.

Post: #16

(12-05-2013 12:56 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  Having low T shouldn't be a problem for someone in there 20s, I think people are looking for an excuse to take Testosterone.

The harsh truth.

Unless you are literally starving, consuming a massively imbalanced diet or recovering from a severe illness, a young man should, in 99% of cases, not have 'low T'.

The current mania whereby even a slight cough is diagnosed in forums as 'low-T', has been brought about by a colossal advertising campaign by the big pharmaceutical companies (not seen since the early days of Viagra).

TRT brings with it a number of worrying, particularly emasculating, side effects which are often ignored by its boosters.

Besides the aesthetics of shrunken balls/dick, someone going on TRT opens themself up to infertility, permanent reduction of capacity for homeostasis and lifetime dependency on some form of synthetic hormone.

Post: #17

For me personally Paleo does it... After a 4-6 weeks on the diet I suddenly feel energetic all the time. Its hard for me to stick to that diet though, I did it with zero carbs except my berries. I will say that I was also quite a bit happier/positive but I think that has to do with the energy levels I had.

Also something to consider being the problem might be over masturbation.

Post: #18

crippler makes a great point above.

It's so simple that it almost gets overlooked because it seems almost too obvious. But when you're tired a lot, the very first thing to look at is: how much and how well do you sleep?

If the answer is, not enough or not well enough, then that's probably the solution to your puzzle.

Good sleep is the basis for a good physical life.

I'd like to hear more about this from the OP. Then depending on the answer, there are things that can be done.

Post: #19

(12-06-2013 12:50 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  crippler makes a great point above.

It's so simple that it almost gets overlooked because it seems almost too obvious. But when you're tired a lot, the very first thing to look at is: how much and how well do you sleep?

If the answer is, not enough or not well enough, then that's probably the solution to your puzzle.

Good sleep is the basis for a good physical life.

I'd like to hear more about this from the OP. Then depending on the answer, there are things that can be done.

I'm going to piggy back on you and crippler and ask the OP: How many days of rest are you getting? You shouldn't work any one muscle group more than twice a week and should have at least one day (preferably Sunday) for total body rest, no exercise at all.

Otherwise you will be tearing your muscles down completely and never recovering. This leads to acute, prolonged and in some cases indefinite fatigue.

Post: #20

Consult an endocrinologist and get some tests done asap (cortisol, testosterone, ACTH). Life is too precious to waste away your best years in a fatigued stupor. Trust me, I've been there. Check out some pages on adrenal fatigue and try to supplement accordingly. Salt water also helps to get the motor going in the morning.

There are rare conditions like mild/late onset CAH but I would only suggest mentioning this after your doctor has done the usual tests and found nothing. Those guys in white tend to jump to the catch-all diagnoses 'psychosomatic exhaustion' too quickly for my taste.

Always remember to not treat symptoms but to treat the underlying cause and get a clear diagnosis first. Even my hint with salt water should only be seen as a temporary test to narrow your problem down. Some issues get gradually worse over the years and you will not even notice the decline in your abilities at first. Therefore, diagnose and treat. Don't mask symptoms.

Post: #21

(12-05-2013 06:19 PM)Starke Wrote:  TRT brings with it a number of worrying, particularly emasculating, side effects which are often ignored by its boosters.

Besides the aesthetics of shrunken balls/dick, someone going on TRT opens themself up to infertility, permanent reduction of capacity for homeostasis and lifetime dependency on some form of synthetic hormone.

You know nothing about TRT. A good TRT protocol like Crisler's protocol will not have those issues.

Post: #22

(12-07-2013 12:21 PM)roid Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 06:19 PM)Starke Wrote:  TRT brings with it a number of worrying, particularly emasculating, side effects which are often ignored by its boosters.

Besides the aesthetics of shrunken balls/dick, someone going on TRT opens themself up to infertility, permanent reduction of capacity for homeostasis and lifetime dependency on some form of synthetic hormone.

You know nothing about TRT. A good TRT protocol like Crisler's protocol will not have those issues.

I've researched TRT quite extensively in support of a family member who had it prescribed. In addition, I've previously researched and (carefully) used synthetic hormones in support of recovery from a sports injury.

Crisler's protocol is effectively a beginner's guide for GPs inexperienced in endocrinology.

It is both dangerous and false for you to state that someone following this one-size-fits-all guideline 'will not have those issues'.
While it may reduce the sides relative to a bare-bones TRT program, it most certainly cannot eliminate all cases - given the extreme variability in each patient's endocrine system.

Pushing someone on to TRT for mere fatigue alone is akin to doling out radiotherapy to someone suffering from a verruca.

Post: #23

It is unlikely to be low T, but I will do the tests just in case. It will be interesting to see my numbers.

(12-05-2013 08:47 AM)crippler Wrote:  What time do you go to bed, how long do you sleep and how well?

I would always start with improving the amount and/or quality of sleep for any energy-related problems.

About 6-8 hours with 7 being average, but I might be wrong - I don't really track it.

(12-05-2013 09:13 AM)RichieP Wrote:  Dairy's probably not gonna help... it's insulinemic (spikes insulin, which sends you to sleep).

Other than that, perhaps you're overtraining?

When I go heavy on the big barbell lifts I always end up pretty tired. They do take it out of you.

Something lighter like kettlebell swings are less fatiguing and will wake you up. They'll keep your glutes/hams strong too (yep, really) if you want to lay off the squats/deads for a bit.

Maybe take a week off, and come back to it fresh?

Also, bedtime? If you're not getting to bed before 12pm on that lifting regime and getting a solid 8 hrs, you're probably under slept.

I think milk might have an effect, but it's far too convenient for my bulking diet, so I am going to keep drinking it.

(12-05-2013 09:29 AM)Starke Wrote:  In early 20s, low T to the point where it is causing fatigue is extremely rare (unless you are coming off of a cycle, and natural T production hasn't yet recovered).

A bulking/high-protein diet will often cause fatigue if you are engaging in an active lifestyle beyond the gym. If you don't mind self-medicating, Modafinil on a day-on, day-off basis could bring your energy levels back to what you expect.

Also, and I know it's unfashionable to say due to the current Paleo trend, but a lot of people aren't getting enough carbs.
Carbs can be risky if you're sedentary, but absolutely vital if you're an active, fit person.

As a fuel source, the body uses fat very inefficiently - ketosis effectively wastes 60-70% of calories consumed, relative to equivalent amount of calories consumed as sugars. For this reason, low-carb diets are uncommon in elite sports which require a degree of stamina.

I was inaccurate when describing my diet. It is about 20-25% protein (200-250 g), 30-35 % carbs, 45% fat. So I am not on Keto diet. Modafinil doesn't do anything for me and also gives me sides. Maybe I got fake modafinil. I will try armodafinil as I believe some people who do not respond to modafinil respond to armodafinil.

(12-05-2013 12:38 PM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  Add lugols iodine and some magnesium to that protocol.

Also 3 cups if green tea a day. Liver tabs.

Grapes and an apple and green tea for breakfast always leave me feeling good to go.

Try doing some meditation daily too. Even ten minutes in corpse pose can recharge your batteries.

I will do research about lugols Iodine. Never heard about it. I already take magnesium with zinc as zinc can deplete magnesium levels.

(12-05-2013 02:39 PM)frenchie Wrote:  As much as I love the advice here, I would not blame it on low Test until you go to your doctor and get the proper blood work done.

I discovered I was massively deficient in vitamin D. Started supplementing that and all went better.

Have you considered taking melatonin before bed? I take 60 mg along with some ZMA and GABA. Melatonin seriously makes me sleep like a rock.

Also, it's seasonal too. Depending on where in the country you are. Just hold steady and keep your routine.

My impression was that Melatonin helps you fall asleep but does it actually effect sleep quality? How would you quantify sleep quality? What is GABA for?

(12-06-2013 12:50 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  crippler makes a great point above.

It's so simple that it almost gets overlooked because it seems almost too obvious. But when you're tired a lot, the very first thing to look at is: how much and how well do you sleep?

If the answer is, not enough or not well enough, then that's probably the solution to your puzzle.

Good sleep is the basis for a good physical life.

I'd like to hear more about this from the OP. Then depending on the answer, there are things that can be done.

(12-06-2013 01:02 AM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 12:50 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  crippler makes a great point above.

It's so simple that it almost gets overlooked because it seems almost too obvious. But when you're tired a lot, the very first thing to look at is: how much and how well do you sleep?

If the answer is, not enough or not well enough, then that's probably the solution to your puzzle.

Good sleep is the basis for a good physical life.

I'd like to hear more about this from the OP. Then depending on the answer, there are things that can be done.

I'm going to piggy back on you and crippler and ask the OP: How many days of rest are you getting? You shouldn't work any one muscle group more than twice a week and should have at least one day (preferably Sunday) for total body rest, no exercise at all.

Otherwise you will be tearing your muscles down completely and never recovering. This leads to acute, prolonged and in some cases indefinite fatigue.

People seem to do just fine with squatting 3 times a week. Is that not evidence against your claim that twice a week should be max for muscle group?

(12-06-2013 04:42 AM)Mr. Cameltoe Wrote:  Consult an endocrinologist and get some tests done asap (cortisol, testosterone, ACTH). Life is too precious to waste away your best years in a fatigued stupor. Trust me, I've been there. Check out some pages on adrenal fatigue and try to supplement accordingly. Salt water also helps to get the motor going in the morning.

There are rare conditions like mild/late onset CAH but I would only suggest mentioning this after your doctor has done the usual tests and found nothing. Those guys in white tend to jump to the catch-all diagnoses 'psychosomatic exhaustion' too quickly for my taste.

Always remember to not treat symptoms but to treat the underlying cause and get a clear diagnosis first. Even my hint with salt water should only be seen as a temporary test to narrow your problem down. Some issues get gradually worse over the years and you will not even notice the decline in your abilities at first. Therefore, diagnose and treat. Don't mask symptoms.

Going to do more research into adrenal fatique.

Post: #24

Also, would it be a good idea to use caffeine for evenings? Caffeine seems to help me a bit - I can do 100 mg caffeine and I will still fall asleep easily as I feel that tired. I would cycle it on and off.

Reddit nootropics faq suggests that Rhodiola Rosea helps with fatique.

Post: #25

Sublingual B-12.

Amazing stuff. Gives you a few hours of energy but won't interfere with your sleep like caffeine can.