Post: #26

I tend to agree with WC thinking, don't waste your time now.
Finish your school would be my first suggestion and then look at the oilsands to make silly money.
Then you are in a situation to explore, maybe even spend the summer in Europe or longer.
$4000 dollars would be a two week vacation for me in Europe, including airfare. That money will go very quickly, then what are you going to do for money? Have mom send you a plane ticket!!
I guess what I am saying is build the foundation now and then you will have the house later on.

Post: #27

(03-03-2014 11:16 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  I tend to agree with WC thinking, don't waste your time now.
Finish your school would be my first suggestion and then look at the oilsands to make silly money.
Then you are in a situation to explore, maybe even spend the summer in Europe or longer.
$4000 dollars would be a two week vacation for me in Europe, including airfare. That money will go very quickly, then what are you going to do for money? Have mom send you a plane ticket!!
I guess what I am saying is build the foundation now and then you will have the house later on.

That's my take on things.

I'm getting my copywriting/marketing biz up and running now...

Going to live in/near a city in the UK for a few years, then head out to SEA or South America.

I'm 20, so for the last few years I've seen a lot of people go travelling... it makes me jealous.

But what are they doing now? Crappy degrees...

If you get a business up and running now, it will keep going wherever you live, and even grow.

Chris

Post: #28

^ ya you guys get my point. There is a line between having fun banging hoes on spring break and deciding to ruin your future.

Chris your life sounds promising, definitely take a weekend or two off to rage (that's what I did) because you can't work 24/7/365 all the time either.

Overall though "learn in your twenties makes it easy to earn in your thirties"

Post: #29

While Westcoast has some great points, it's not as black and white as the picture he is painting. You can create a career on your computer these days. No doubt about it.

If you want to do it responsibly, though, build at least some semblance of an income before you leave. You can hunker down in your home town for a couple weeks to a month working and not going out to do this. That'll also prove your ability to ignore distraction.

Then once you're abroad, work on a regular basis. 5 days a week. Preferably 8 hour days. Maybe more. Maybe a little less as you can afford to. Treat it like a real job. Or a real business.

Also, as he mentioned, you don't want your lifestyle choice to leave you with zero professional skills. It doesn't have to.

Always be studying some new skill that you can leverage. There's such an abundance of online training programs for a variety of high-value professional skills (most of which are growing in demand, I might add), that it's preposterous to think you couldn't constantly update your arsenal to become more and more relevant in today's workplace.

You can also gain real-world experience in these things by applying them as you learn them for both yourself and clients. That's a resume with real-world results to show - something most employees do not have. If you can produce that, and especially back it up with numbers, trust me, you can find a real job if you want it.

My work has not only taught me a lot and led to plenty of $60 - $100/per hour work but has also led me to quite a few traditional salary job offers, some remote and some not. I don't bother keeping a resume but I assure you if I wanted to slap one together at any time I could find a "real job" within a month, and probably in far less time.

One guy I met online and worked with for years leveraged his freelancing to get in with one of America's top companies in a very lucrative industry. He did this quickly and easily. As in one day waking up and deciding working for himself wasn't working and he wanted to see what it was like to work for a big corporate and then within a couple weeks was in a top level marketing position.

And then moved from that job into working at Amazon. He's put me in touch with his recruiter, who works with many other name brand multinationals and has invited me to put together a resume as he thinks my experience could definitely be a solid stepping stone. One job lead he threw my direction was for another company name that has definitely passed across the lips of every person on this forum.

I've got a part-time salary (could be full-time if I wanted it) offer on the table right now from a friend who just secured big funding for a very promising social media startup, and it includes some interesting profit-sharing options. Earlier this year, I turned down a 20 hour per week position with a Swedish tech company making $40 an hour.

I get these offers all the time, and I don't even pursue them. Why not? Perhaps stupidity and shortsightedness, sure. Perhaps laziness, sure.

But my point is imagine if I did. Imagine if I not only did but did so with a clearcut gameplan to keep moving from one bigger and better position to the next. For a career-conscious person, I assure you this can all be done.

Now maybe I'm not the best person to be giving career advice as my own financial situation could be a lot better than it is and should be. I can agree with that. This isn't because the opportunities to stack cash aren't there; I just haven't been very good at maintaining my schedule over the years and I've suffered for it.

So yea, it's easy to waste it too. One way to look at that is to say not everyone is cut out for it, and maybe that's true for me. I'm more inclined to think, on the other hand, that my career path (that's what I see this as) is one that moves from lower income and less security towards higher income and more security (as well as more freedom) as I mature and develop my focus.

For one, thing, I find I get better about staying on track for longer periods of time as I get older. So like many people, I assume this means my income will also go up as I age, only for different reasons than they do for others.

I also work on book projects on the side, and considering what I do to create my income (marketing and PR, essentially), it's not that much of a long shot to assume I can eventually create a decent income out of this in the next decade. With the off-chance of something going big and making me some real money.

Not smart to depend on that, but I don't need to because I have my current business either way (similar to the track proposed in the book, "The Education of Millionaires").

All these observations of my personal track are irrelevant though and probably don't paint the best picture. My real point is that the option to make it into something far more substantial is definitely there. Hell, some of the guys who ran with info I offered on freelancing on this forum built the equivelant of an entry-level corporate salary (but with location freedom) within a month or so and are off the ground and running. Others have matched my $100/hour rates and even surpassed them.

My suggestion? First, don't follow my bad example.

Second, don't think of it as a vacation! As others have mentioned it, give it a year or two. Work your ass off at whatever it is you're trying to accomplish, keep your eye on the ball, and give yourself deadlines within which you have to make a certain amount or accomplish certain things. If you reach those deadlines and haven't done shit, get off the boat and go to plan B.

Seems reasonable and responsible enough to me. Don't forget - for every person who has built the kind of life they want to build, there have been hundreds standing right there to tell them they were doing the foolish, irresponsible thing...

As sound as WestCoast's advice and financial acuity is (you can definitely be a winner following his lead), a matter of a year or two isn't going to make it that difficult to jump back into the traditional business world if things don't work out. Yes, it will be difficult to focus and make it work as planned. Yes, you can lose and waste a couple years. Yes, changing course will take an extra push of effort and going without.

But a temporary detour before you get started isn't going to stall you up that much.

And at least you can say gave your dream a shot.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #30

(03-03-2014 11:16 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  I tend to agree with WC thinking, don't waste your time now.
Finish your school would be my first suggestion and then look at the oilsands to make silly money.
Then you are in a situation to explore, maybe even spend the summer in Europe or longer.
$4000 dollars would be a two week vacation for me in Europe, including airfare. That money will go very quickly, then what are you going to do for money? Have mom send you a plane ticket!!
I guess what I am saying is build the foundation now and then you will have the house later on.

I'm not disagreeing with any of the above, but still, that's kind of an insane figure. I spent ~7k in four months in a second tier city in germany, even considering that I was smoking a pack a day. Granted, money was tight at times and I had to watch my budget on nights out, but it worked out in the end. A guy can go to language school overseas for damned cheap and get in on some discounted student housing.

Post: #31

when I was 22 I took 6 months to travel. All I did was "explore and find myself." I did not gain any valuable experience, but it did make me realize what I wanted to do with my life, which was to travel more.. when I ran out of money I went home, sort of dicked around for a bit, but eventually I created an online business for myself, (Please don't PM me asking questions about my biz). I spent a full year trying things out, and eventually got it. Ever since I started making money online I've been traveling. I'm 25 now. I'm typing this from my hotel room in Bali. Today I woke up next to a 22 year old Indonesian girl, went surfing for 2 hours, and now I'm working. Not a bad Tuesday.

I would not be traveling right now if I didn't travel 3 years ago and took the time to "find myself and other hippie shit." Though I like to think that I'm different than most people, so I really would not advise most to take a lot of time off to travel. Just make sure not to be an idiot and get sucked into some bull shit like working at a restaurant in Cambodia.

Post: #32

@hades - I agree it is a lot of money, but I am too old to rough it in a hostel. I am factoring centrally located apartment, eating out, partying, working out etc.
Going to Europe also means stopping off in London to visit a few friends and picking up a few items.

Post: #33

I've always entertained this thought because I hate college, but I know I have got to pay my dues. I've been experimenting with online businesses. The international playboy life is a long-term goal for me.

Post: #34

The one thing I'll warn you is that if you travel a lot when you are really young and take long term trips, it becomes really difficult to reintegrate into Canadian society. I find myself bored by it, and its monotonous nature. Especially difficult is that I'm in the process of taking a real hit on the amount of vacations I was taking. From 5 months a year to probably 4-6 weeks/year for a few years while I build my business. You'll begin to see many negatives in Canadian society (this probably applies to America as well).

After my time abroad I can say the only real positives in Canada are the a) cheap automobiles b) high incomes.

The problem is your definition of what you think would be a great retirement income will likely increase when your salary increases and it makes an almost never ending desire / requirement for more.

Personally, 3 years ago a million would've been fine to retire in my books. Last year I was thinking well with 2 million I could probably live pretty damn well abroad on 80k per year or so. Now I think 5 million is what I'd need because I mean who doesn't want to ball out in their 40s. It makes it really difficult mentally to step aside and say enough is enough. With 1 million now not a chance I'd retire or leave work.

I think the guys who have it best would be someone like WestCoast. Makes large bank for 1 - 2 decades. Acquires good investing / business identification talents, then can go abroad and either start a business in a new place or freelance like Beyond Borders.

I think many jobs which require you to be in workplace at the moment will in the future allow for you to work from abroad.

Personally, I'd cut your trip at 2 months. I could have probably much easier reintegrated after 2 months abroad then after several trips ranging 3-4 months.

In my honest experience I find it more expensive living abroad than in Canada. When I'm abroad I want to live real well. My spending increases substantially, I start going out 5 times a week. Dating multiple girls. Spending on bottle service, dinners out nightly, buying shit for girls I'm seeing. All of a sudden I end up spending double what I do in Canada but with 10 times the lifestyle. It gets really addicting and is incredibly difficult to give that up and go back to slogging away at a monotonous existence. Imagine going from thinking a mediocre woman is goodlooking to having woman you never dreamed were possible to have. Do that over a period of time. Now the curtain closes and you are told sorry no more funds, you need to move back to Canada. It will be incredibly difficult to do this if you spend too much time opening your eyes.

With that said I'm looking forward to the challenge of running my own business. I think it will challenge me and provide the opportunity shall I still desire it to move abroad "for as long as a desire" in the future.

I really think that the best option for someone as young as yourself is to spend a month or two abroad.

I wouldn't go to Western Europe or another high cost region. That seems counter intuitive to me. Go to a place where you get more for money, then see if that lifestyle is what you want long run.

I think Beyond Borders by the sounds of it has a great career choice but could you imagine being WestCoast and then adding Beyond Borders skill set. I think that would be the best answer. Get a real standard high paying job like WestCoast and learn a relatively well-paying skill set like BeyondBorders. Save, learn to invest...build a foundation and then move abroad long term if your heart desires and continue working using your freelancing skills.

Sorry for the long post.

Post: #35

Great post lavidaloca ! Respect . I suffered the same adjustment coming back to Canuckistan

Post: #36

Don't apologize lavida, that's the best post I've read all day.

Post: #37

Do you want to go on a trip?

Or...

Do you want to make a complete lifestyle change?

The latter generally requires a solid foundation.

Post: #38

Lavida... Great post.

You hit it on the head.

I laugh out loud when people say you can't work on a side business while working a professional job.

1) learn the business you work in
2) start a side business that is related

Do both! There is no reason you can't. You just need the motivation guys!

Post: #39

Great post La Vida,

The problem is not going but coming back!

Post: #40

@Westcoast: You make great points about slogging it out in your 20's to handle your sit in your 30's onward... I agree in principle, but only a select few have the ability to be high earners in Finance or if you're really lucky and work in a startup that gets bought out when they are that young. The majority of guys in their 20's are going to be making $35k-$100k annually in those 8 years if they graduate from university. Even if they bank a significant amount of their after-tax income, that's only going to be low-mid 6 figures. You can definitely live on that for the foreseeable future in SE Asia, but you're not going to be balling on that.

@OP: Why not split the difference? Lots of guys on this forum have talked about working in the oil industry in Canada or North Dakota or work in an underrepresented trade field. It's very viable to work 6 months on and six months off throughout the year. I would think that that's a very doable ratio of work/play. I didn't go down that route, but I get about two months off from my cush job every year. I mix travel hacking into the equation and I fly premium cabins and stay in nice hotels for pennies on the dollar. I've been to 40+ countries in the past ten years and I'm able to save 30-50% of my after-tax pay every year. For me, it's the ideal mix of a decent/stable paycheck and plenty of time away to indulge my travel lust.

Post: #41

dupe

Post: #42

(03-05-2014 11:26 PM)booshala Wrote:  @Westcoast: You make great points about slogging it out in your 20's to handle your sit in your 30's onward... I agree in principle, but only a select few have the ability to be high earners in Finance or if you're really lucky and work in a startup that gets bought out when they are that young. The majority of guys in their 20's are going to be making $35k-$100k annually in those 8 years if they graduate from university. Even if they bank a significant amount of their after-tax income, that's only going to be low-mid 6 figures. You can definitely live on that for the foreseeable future in SE Asia, but you're not going to be balling on that.

It's not about getting lucky.

It's about going out there and taking responsibility for your own wealth.

Whether that means starting your own business or learning a skill set and working in a high paying job.

There are always opportunities for those that look... and want.

Even if you fail at starting a biz or finding a good job, you're going to be hugely richer than your peers because of the experience you got. You learn from failures and even if it takes you another 5 years (up to 35...), you can still earn the wedge to live life on your own terms.

Post: #43

Man this thread is a fucking gold mine of advise. It's filled to the brim with experience from doers. Thanks to everyone who shared their experience.

I think the general consensus is that you have three options.

1-hunker down, build something over the long term, reap the rewards later (WestCoast & Lavidaloca).
2-hunker down, rapidly build some skills and 'location independent' income, then travel and never stop building on this (Tigre, Beyond Borders, worldwidetraveler, travolta)
3-hunker down, work your ass off in the freezing oil sands, work your way up the pay ranks and travel in the down season (Vacancier Permanent & rudebwoy)

And that regardless of what you take a small trip as a diversion won't hurt.

Interestingly nobody who went down the route of option 2 built their lifestyle whilst traveling, they all put the foundation in place beforehand. Reality is travel is for enjoyment, if you try and build an income whilst traveling you'll fail on that front and fail to enjoy that travel. That's my view and as I too seek to go down the route of option 2 I'm keeping the two separate.

Key take away is that none of the options allow you to escape hunkering down. Nothing worth it comes easy. True freedom in whatever form requires you to work, simply clicking a few buttons for a one way flight doesn't require work. Thanks to all those who shared.

Post: #44

(03-04-2014 10:32 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  The problem is your definition of what you think would be a great retirement income will likely increase when your salary increases and it makes an almost never ending desire / requirement for more.

Personally, 3 years ago a million would've been fine to retire in my books. Last year I was thinking well with 2 million I could probably live pretty damn well abroad on 80k per year or so. Now I think 5 million is what I'd need because I mean who doesn't want to ball out in their 40s. It makes it really difficult mentally to step aside and say enough is enough. With 1 million now not a chance I'd retire or leave work.

Hey mate. First, I loved reading your Cuba advise.

Now regarding this post. I'm presuming you've already hit the $2m mark in somewhat of a liquid position. No doubt you've also built a nice lifestyle level that requires a certain amount, and as you get older naturally that level increases. Not to mention any responsibilities you have towards parents & potential children that will cost. In your position taking a downgrade is really out of the option.

But if $5m is the new benchmark, then what about when you hit that level? Will you not be happy until you have $15m? How old will you be then? Will you be too old to enjoy?

Some of the older guys I know who live the best lifestyles have a no more than $2 million net worth, this includes their house, and leaves a sum that allows a modest investment income (4-5%). But at their own choosing they'll consult for $100+ hourly figures which funds the new cars, nice lifestyle, holidays etc. Some do it year round. Others do it contract by contract and travel in between. Another has a business that he leaves for 3-4 month periods and has his son in charge. A phone call per week to get some updates is all he does. When he comes back the business is still earning the same if not more, and there's a fat sum of retained earnings to boot. Unless you're beginning to earn money in a parabolic rate through whatever you're doing, maybe you need to try a different approach? If you are going parabolic, well then ride that wave haha. Cheers.

Post: #45

I'm doing this right now. Living with parents and building an online business. This year is insane as things picked up and I'm making like $5,000/month.

My expenses? Hmm, barely none. (except for the car)

My target is to have a good apartment somewhere in the country ($120K value), plus $50K invested in stable index funds, and some liquid cash ($20-30k). I already have a nice new car (bought last year)

My (updated) goal this year, is to be making $15K/month by the end of the year.

It's pretty amazing since only 3 years later I was the definition of the word "broke" and borrowed $150 from my sister to buy a laptop.

Post: #46

(03-06-2014 12:23 PM)ASOT Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 10:32 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  The problem is your definition of what you think would be a great retirement income will likely increase when your salary increases and it makes an almost never ending desire / requirement for more.

Personally, 3 years ago a million would've been fine to retire in my books. Last year I was thinking well with 2 million I could probably live pretty damn well abroad on 80k per year or so. Now I think 5 million is what I'd need because I mean who doesn't want to ball out in their 40s. It makes it really difficult mentally to step aside and say enough is enough. With 1 million now not a chance I'd retire or leave work.

Hey mate. First, I loved reading your Cuba advise.

Now regarding this post. I'm presuming you've already hit the $2m mark in somewhat of a liquid position. No doubt you've also built a nice lifestyle level that requires a certain amount, and as you get older naturally that level increases. Not to mention any responsibilities you have towards parents & potential children that will cost. In your position taking a downgrade is really out of the option.

But if $5m is the new benchmark, then what about when you hit that level? Will you not be happy until you have $15m? How old will you be then? Will you be too old to enjoy?

Some of the older guys I know who live the best lifestyles have a no more than $2 million net worth, this includes their house, and leaves a sum that allows a modest investment income (4-5%). But at their own choosing they'll consult for $100+ hourly figures which funds the new cars, nice lifestyle, holidays etc. Some do it year round. Others do it contract by contract and travel in between. Another has a business that he leaves for 3-4 month periods and has his son in charge. A phone call per week to get some updates is all he does. When he comes back the business is still earning the same if not more, and there's a fat sum of retained earnings to boot. Unless you're beginning to earn money in a parabolic rate through whatever you're doing, maybe you need to try a different approach? If you are going parabolic, well then ride that wave haha. Cheers.

I haven't reached 2 million, I should get there in 6 to 8 years. It's not practical for me to have saved that amount as I'm in my mid 20's. I need more compounding periods to take advantage of. But everyone wants the level that seems out of reach to themselves. It's like a guy in the NBA getting paid 2 million a year. He probably thinks, I ought to make 10 million a year in order to have sufficient money. It's a never ending progression.

When I started going to Cuba several years ago, during my first few week solo trip I thought I was a baller with $50 Canadian a day. Every year my burn rate in Cuba has increased. I can't even imagine trying to do it on that type of money anymore. At $100 a day there I still feel pretty confined. At $150 I'm comfortable but not balling either. I'm sure that number will continually rise upwards.

Part of my reasoning as to why I feel I'll need more and more net worth is simple. Inflation is going to add up over an entire lifetime. $1 or $2 million in 40 years won't have anywhere near the same value it does now. When someone retires at 70 they have a lot less to worry about in terms of inflation than someone who is retiring at 40.

Some people have careers where they can simply leave and go back to work after taking a decade or 2 off (generally manual labour). Hence, even if their investments under perform over a long period of time they can go back to work. I don't have that type of career.

It's a general principle. Mentally, everything begins scaling up and up in your mind.

Post: #47

This concept is something I've been thinking about on a daily basis for over 5 years.

Great input so far on this thread.