Post: #1

Do any forum members believe that Enlightenment is possible or is it just a pipe dream?

Enlightenment can be thought of a permanent massive shift where one becomes directly conscious of one's absolute nature.

There are hundreds are fake teachers out there like Eckhart Tolle who became a multimillionaire businessman with his mix of pseudo-science, new age philosophy, and teachings borrowed from established religions.

Who are the best genuine teachers on non-duality?

Post: #2

I've searched a long time.
Reading the experiences and thoughts of the deep thinkers on RoK has at times felt like Enlightenment to me.

Doing Yoga with eyes closed and the heat jacked up, had a similar feeling.

Going 100% in BJJ to the point of almost Vomiting on my partner, has also given me this sensation.

I don't think it is something you can capture and maintain.
Enlightenment is fleeting and almost always out of grasp.
You might accidentally blast through a wall and taste flashes of it while breaking a plateau in life.

Why would you want to live in a permanent state of Enlightenment though?
This would end the cycle of Self Improvement, and thus the Game would cease to be.
When there is nothing to play, Jack become a dull boy.

Post: #3

/thread-46443...ightenment

Dupe

Post: #4

(12-22-2016 04:59 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  /thread-46443...ightenment

Dupe

That thread was about Eckhart Tolle, whom I consider an impostor who has just copied his ideas from the Buddhists, etc.

I wanted to discuss genuine teachers who have actually become enlightened.

Post: #5

I recommend reading Sam Harris' book Waking Up. He talks quite a bit about charlatans and real masters. Though even from his extensive experience with meditation and living in the East, the best masters could at best maintain an enlightened stage for minutes.

I ponder this as well - is it possible to be enlightened? As in truly enlightened?

@ScrapperTL the point of enlightenment is that you feel just an abundant joy - game, self-improvement, even sex doesn't matter anymore. I don't know if you've ever done LSD, but psychedelic drugs can allow you to enter a stage of mind where the driving forces behind game (sexual drive, insecurities, desires) all disappear. What is left is really have pure joy.

It is believed soma, a psychedelic, was used in ancient Vedic societies. I wonder how much of the scriptures on moksha (enlightement in Hindu terms) was written while people were high on psychedelics. One wonders if even the Buddha was a bit of a con man.

That said,

1. even if it's not possible to reach true enlightement, the goal of pursuing it is worth it: at the end you'll be left with a more tranquil mind and you'll be able to go with the flow
2. best teachers: I find books to be better educators than human beings - Eknath Easwaran's translations of the Gita, Upanishads and Dhammapadda are amazing and dig deep into the non-duality you mentioned

Post: #6

Adyashanti is the most awake teacher I know who also speaks to a Western-educated audience, being a native-born California. He intensely dislikes pretend spirituality and fakery which I particularly appreciate about him having been in circles that reeked of falsehood. His website is here: http://www.adyashanti.org.

and you can find many videos / dialogues / talks on Youtube. I would highly recommend attending a silent retreat (5 day at least) for a seeker who wants a deep immersion in Truth.

Enlightenment isn't what the mind thinks it is. There's so much jargon and so many concepts put to it.

I would disagree that the 'point to enlightenment' is any one thing, as Genghis Khan says. That also feel heavy with concepts and goals.

What I have found through several 'enlightenment' experiences or 'moments of clear awareness' (associated with but not necessarily caused by meditation and psychedelics) is that the underlying joy in any moment is always here. Attempting to make joy or happiness or peace the focus will lead to dependence upon feeling a certain way as a 'gauge of being enlightened.' That's how the mind starts to take over what is really a very natural way of being in the world. I've also heard enlightenment described as 'the natural state' because everything, from eating, drinking, speaking, having sex, crying, etc. happens in a natural way for each person.

There is a witnessing awareness to every moment of our lives and that witnessing awareness is not a thing that can be pointed to or 'understood.' But it's there, whatever it is. The various practices of societies and cultures throughout time are all pointing toward that knowing of our Oneness with all things. There can be both the appearance of 'other people and things' and also the knowing that we are One with them.

It is not a mental concept but an experiential one - like when you totally submerge your hand in water and raise it with the fingers pointing up. At first you see just one finger tip, then several, then whole fingers ... and finally you see the hand they are all connected to. What seems like a separate 'thing' is actually just an illusion.

This is a very interesting talk you may want to also check out. In pursuing a question about 'what is reincarnation?' Peter Brown takes the questioner on a fascinating journey.

Post: #7

(12-22-2016 04:57 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  I've searched a long time.
Reading the experiences and thoughts of the deep thinkers on RoK has at times felt like Enlightenment to me.

Doing Yoga with eyes closed and the heat jacked up, had a similar feeling.

Going 100% in BJJ to the point of almost Vomiting on my partner, has also given me this sensation.

I don't think it is something you can capture and maintain.
Enlightenment is fleeting and almost always out of grasp.
You might accidentally blast through a wall and taste flashes of it while breaking a plateau in life.

Why would you want to live in a permanent state of Enlightenment though?
This would end the cycle of Self Improvement, and thus the Game would cease to be.
When there is nothing to play, Jack become a dull boy.

There's an interesting perspective about awakening having three 'phases,' something Adyashanti discusses. The experience of waking up can happen suddenly, but often the processing of the insights can take time as the body and mind (and soul you can say) all adjust to the new way of perceiving the world. A very important aspect of being awake is being detached from requiring a particular outcome. This is really the essence of 'no fucks given' in the ultimate sense. But also, where some people take a break from any kind of pursuit and bask in the joy of being no-thing, and not having to do anything, often a natural movement to engage with the world arises and you become even more dynamic than ever before. It can seem like quite a paradox, but it's certainly not an absolute "enlightenment is X, Y, or Z" situation.

When you are free to be naturally who and what you are, then you are liberated to do whatever is most real and true for you. This makes it VERY interesting and the exact opposite of dull!

EDIT: When you mentioned 'accidentally blasting through a wall,' I literally ran a red light and crashed my car into another while feeling trapped in a chaotic roundy-round of thought & emotions. It was a very sharp call to get right or possibly die (or even worse, hurt someone else through my inattention). Being awake is being free of dependence on mental or emotional cycles - not that you don't feel or think but that you aren't deciding your life on whimsical movements of either. You are Here and Now which is what we wish for everyone around us. That's the ultimate Red Pill.

Post: #8

(12-22-2016 04:12 PM)BB1 Wrote:  Do any forum members believe that Enlightenment is possible or is it just a pipe dream?

Enlightenment can be thought of a permanent massive shift where one becomes directly conscious of one's absolute nature.

There are hundreds are fake teachers out there like Eckhart Tolle who became a multimillionaire businessman with his mix of pseudo-science, new age philosophy, and teachings borrowed from established religions.

Who are the best genuine teachers on non-duality?

As far as Buddhism goes there are said to be shortcuts to enlightenment/Buddhahood. One that comes to mind is the path of Buddha rememberance (Pure Land Buddhism) and another one would be Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism) which is said to be a rapid path towards Buddhahood in this very lifetime. Both paths may be the faster than others but hard work and diligence are still required.

Post: #9

Quote:fake teachers out there like Eckhart Tolle

I disagree with this statement but people are entitled to their own opinion.

Post: #10

(01-07-2017 11:17 PM)RealDeal Wrote:  

(12-22-2016 04:12 PM)BB1 Wrote:  Do any forum members believe that Enlightenment is possible or is it just a pipe dream?

Enlightenment can be thought of a permanent massive shift where one becomes directly conscious of one's absolute nature.

There are hundreds are fake teachers out there like Eckhart Tolle who became a multimillionaire businessman with his mix of pseudo-science, new age philosophy, and teachings borrowed from established religions.

Who are the best genuine teachers on non-duality?

As far as Buddhism goes there are said to be shortcuts to enlightenment/Buddhahood. One that comes to mind is the path of Buddha rememberance (Pure Land Buddhism) and another one would be Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism) which is said to be a rapid path towards Buddhahood in this very lifetime. Both paths may be the faster than others but hard work and diligence are still required.

The crux of Adya's teachings are that we can awaken, realize our true nature and live an awakened life in this lifetime.

Quote:"At least when I got involved in Zen, the basic idea was enlightenment is 'you see things the way they are.' That's all it was sold as, basically. You just see things the way they are: that's enlightenment. That's basically what that tradition was saying to me that enlightenment was. You see things the way they are instead of seeing things the way they not; seeing them through your clouded haze of ideas and beliefs and perceptions that are distorted by our minds and our egoic sense of sense. So that seemed to make a lot of sense to me.

And it's that interest that came on that day that led and then to the whole pursuit of spiritual seeking ... that to this day, it's still the exact same interest that it was on the first day. Because everything that I have seen, when the shifts of perception started to happen, of course I started to realize not just in theory anymore but in actuality - through actually perceiving things differently that actually was a completely different way of seeing things. And in relationship to a different way of seeing things, that what we think of normal is about the most abnormal, twisted, ridiculous way of seeing things we could possibly come up with. Which is why things don't work out too well when we're perceiving things through the lenses that most human beings are taught to perceive through.

And so it's this exact same interest that started as an interest, then it became a perception: 'ah!' That moment of realizing. It's not realizing. Actually, 'to realize' is sort of a misnomer. Because it implies that you realize 'something'. You know, it implies like, it's almost like a scientific discovery, that you finally discover: you discover something somebody else didn't discover. But to realize - to awaken - isn't like that. We don't come into a piece of information that we didn't have before. The only thing that, what happens is: our perception shifts. That doesn't really require a piece of information. If anything, it requires a lot of information to drop away all at once and then your perception shifts - and things look different. I mean they look the same, you know. If you were looking at a house beforehand, or a car, you still see a car after your shift of perception but now it would be seen in a completely different light.

And so that's that shift from conditioned mind to unconditioned consciousness, that's what enlightenment's all about. That's what it's about. The shift from perceiving through our own conditioning of our minds, and thoughts, and ideas, and beliefs. To perceive through those is one type, leads to one type of consciousness, usually called eogic consciousness: perceiving through ego. But really it's probably more truthful to say 'perceiving through your mind.' And then NOT perceiving through your mind - just perceiving directly; seeing things as they are, seeing you as what you are, seeing everything, everybody as what it actually IS. That's basically what enlightenment is.

Of course, usually enlightenment is sold through 'this is how you'll FEEL once that has happened.' Right? Usually there's a big sales ploy. It's like trying to entice people into enlightenment by saying 'you will be really happy, you'll feel lots of bliss, you'll never have a problem again!' (haha!) You've all heard the sales pitch for enlightenment; you get in spirituality for very long. But the sales pitch is different depending on who's pitching it. Maybe it's 'the savior of all humanity' or who knows what the sales pitch is. But usually it's the 'what I will get out of it.'

But what if the sales pitch is 'here's something you'll get NOTHING out of! You'll put all your energy into, all of your life into, all of your heart and your soul and your bones and your marrow and when it's all said and done you'll get goose egg! It's like going to a great restaurant and ordering the best thing on the menu and they bring you an empty plate! Not many people would be really thrilled about it, are they? So if I was - which I'm not - if I was to make a sales pitch for enlightenment, that would be my sales pitch. It's actually no more true than the other sales pitch, but at least it would thin the crowd a bit.

You know like those college teachers who tell you ' you won't have time for any other class than this one ... and none of you want to be here so you'll want to leave immediately.' They try to intimidate the riff raff out of the room. If I was a college professor I'd like to think I'd be that way. At least I'd like to think I'd be that way. But unfortunately I've got this nice guy thing going on.

So to say you get nothing out of it is just as silly as to say you'll get everything out of it. But the trajectory and interest that really is the thing, this big word we're unfortunately stuck with and if you change the world it'll ruin that word too. This big word of enlightenment is just the perception of Truth. Which is just seeing with unclouded vision - that's what it is. Seeing what is instead of what isn't. Now if you've ever had the experience of being very much in a pattern of thinking? (laughter) No, nobody! Well that's sure to apply to everyone in the room, huh? But you know when you've had something you really deeply believed and were passionate about. Very 'this is what's true!' Then at some other point in your life you saw it was total and absolute nonsense?! You ever had that? If you haven't, then just get ready, because that's just a warm-up act for enlightenment!

And then you look back and you think 'how did I ever believe that?' Remember that experience? 'How did I ever think that was what was real, that that was actually true?' and you're just mystified. But you really remember when you really perceived things through that lens, that everything looked different. The whole world was the same - it was just like it always was - but how you saw it was totally different. And then you stopped believing in it at some point, and the world looks different again. It looks very different without that belief. More than likely you're perceiving through a new belief. But nonetheless, that's sort of a, an example or that little taste of how potent our minds can change our perceptions. Our minds can change our perceptions very, very powerfully.

So when the spiritual teacher says "the world is illusion" what they really mean is "YOUR world that YOU'RE creating in YOUR mind only exists IN YOUR MIND. It's an illusion - it doesn't exist out there!"

- Adyashanti

I transcribed the entire video for the bandwidth-challenged, but it's worth watching.

Adyashanti - A Shift in Perception

Post: #11

(01-08-2017 12:50 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

Quote:fake teachers out there like Eckhart Tolle

I disagree with this statement but people are entitled to their own opinion.

I agree with you, Rex. I've found Eckhart's teachings to be direct and useful. He does have a style of humor and manner that may rub some people the wrong way but accusing him of being 'fake' is a strong judgment that's different than an opinion of 'I don't like him.'

It was through involvement in a meditation group which includes sharing teachings from Tolle and others that I was introduced to Adyashanti. I appreciate a teacher who is very natural which is what I love about Adya. He eats burgers, rides a motorcycle, and is a helluva poker player. He has a very engaging sense of humor, in my opinion.

To me, talking or thinking or reading are a starting point to really dive into our true nature - which is totally experiential and why I'm a fan of extended silent retreats along with systems of 'applied spirituality' like Human Design and Gene Keys.

Post: #12

I've never been into new age teachers such as Adyashanti or Echart Tolle. Those two commonly conflate both Mahayana buddhist philosophy with Advaita Vedanta. I'm more interested in studying and practicing in a traditional/orthodox manner.

Post: #13

(12-22-2016 04:12 PM)BB1 Wrote:  Do any forum members believe that Enlightenment is possible or is it just a pipe dream?

Enlightenment can be thought of a permanent massive shift where one becomes directly conscious of one's absolute nature.

There are hundreds are fake teachers out there like Eckhart Tolle who became a multimillionaire businessman with his mix of pseudo-science, new age philosophy, and teachings borrowed from established religions.

Who are the best genuine teachers on non-duality?

The absurdity of using the mind, to understand the mind.....UG Krishnamurti I believe speaks clearly about non duality. This is a guy born from generations of enlightenment teachers who also spent time with Jk Krishnamurti and Ramana Maharshi and said they all full of shit con men..
Who ironically achieved enlightenment by attending Jk Krishnamurti talks....He spoke about the experience in this video after his experience .

UG almost went down that same path as other so called Guru's. The guy really walk the walk talk the talk there's no copy rights on anything of his....In fact it seems he became very bitter after... Imagine spending your whole life chasing after something that's a illusion..

Sam Harris and his meditations teacher talks in dept about nonduality and all things related

Post: #14

Having very nearly gone down this path myself in the not too distant path, I think the quest for enlightenment is something of a hustle. It's an excuse to sit on a mountain side and meditate, and to withdraw completely from the world, rather than doing the often hard, thankless and speculative task of applying one's brain to new and challenging material. Time spent learning about enlightenment and meditating, and striving for a higher state, could more usefully be spent learning things that have a real world application. In my view a lifetime of thought and learning, and engagement with the world around you is the thing that will bring you closest to whatever an enlightened state is. All these gurus are hustling you, in one form or another, in my view.

Post: #15

H1N1, I can assure you if you are honest with yourself, this is not a hustle nor does it lead to excuses or withdrawing from the world. Modern man has no walkabouts or rites of passage that require solitude and contemplation - let alone physical exertion. In a simple but real way, a silent retreat with an awakened teacher as guide is a very honest, powerful, no bullshit route to making one more Grace-prone. By Grace-prone I mean softening the hold of the mind and giving an opportunity for a deep insight to happen. There's no formula and I won't pretend there is, but many traditions which assist awakening will point to common activities that facilitate a state of receptivity.

I can understand that you may have negative feelings, but have you researched or listened to Adyashanti? I've left various schools and teachers behind as many did feel too jargon-loaded and guru-y. He is not like that. And no, I don't work for his organization - I'm just a very happy former attendee of workshops and retreats.

No one told me how to find a walkabout in the West but this is the best format I could have asked for. I never felt hustled, or manipulated. I've felt manipulation through Landmark Forum, though.

By the way, I have a physical business with a global impact, an active YouTube channel, a blog, and am writing a book. I have more clarity, energy, joy, and peace through the time I spent devoted to spiritual awakening and specifically with Adyashanti as my teacher. there's a reason he named his organization Open Gate Sangha - you can enter or leave as you need.

Post: #16

(01-09-2017 01:05 PM)Truth Tiger Wrote:  By Grace-prone I mean softening the hold of the mind and giving an opportunity for a deep insight to happen.

The most important part of self to soften is one's HEART. Think JESHUA weeping on the CROSS.

enHEARTment (enLIGHTment of the EMOTIONAL BODY) is no less important than enLIGHTment of the MENTAL BODY (what BUDDHA taught) and comes first to some.

Post: #17

I would agree, and I felt my heart literally re-opening some time before the gifts of insight that brought a shift of awareness. If one looks at the natural flow of energy (as the Hindi chakra system illustrates), universal love energy has to move through any areas that have blockages before reaching a higher chakra and state of awareness. Everyone experiences their own process of awakening, there is no single way. Starting with the ability to simply sit still is the hardest thing for most people because they think they aren't doing anything useful. But powerful work is happening. As Jesus said: "Be still, and know that I am God..."

The heart and mind are deeply connected and the work of Institute of HeartMath plus Complete Coherence give tools on unifying heart and mind. They focus on finding a full breathing rhythm and cultivating / remembering feelings of love and gratitude at the same time. Benefits to health of body and soul...

Post: #18

(01-09-2017 04:04 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  Having very nearly gone down this path myself in the not too distant path, I think the quest for enlightenment is something of a hustle. It's an excuse to sit on a mountain side and meditate, and to withdraw completely from the world, rather than doing the often hard, thankless and speculative task of applying one's brain to new and challenging material. Time spent learning about enlightenment and meditating, and striving for a higher state, could more usefully be spent learning things that have a real world application. In my view a lifetime of thought and learning, and engagement with the world around you is the thing that will bring you closest to whatever an enlightened state is. All these gurus are hustling you, in one form or another, in my view.

Who says one must retreat to the mountain side to find enlightenment or spend countless hours learning about it? Enlightenment is not an intellectual pursuit. One can live an ordinary life of a city dweller and still find it if that's what one really wants. There are many practices out there that are designed for non monks. Tibetan Buddhism has a history rich of householders who have attained the ultimate goal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahasiddha

Post: #19

I'd never spent a lot of time on the DEEP forum but.. wow.. im loving the questions/ thoughts..

See my last few posts.. and this one..
/thread-49014...pid1495698