Post: #1

http://www.nationaljournal.com/member/ma...print=true

Post: #2

sounds to me like 51% aren't paying their 'fair share'.....

Post: #3

(02-10-2012 10:46 AM)Brian Wrote:  sounds to me like 51% aren't paying their 'fair share'.....

… In an even more eye-popping statistic, from 2005 to ’07, the after-tax income of the top 20 percent exceeded the after-tax income of the remaining 80 percent of all taxpayers—a revelation that led the typically restrained CBO to conclude that “the distribution of after-tax household income in the United States was substantially more unequal in 2007 than in 1979.” This level of income inequality, and the Republican Party’s acceptance of it, marks a shift in its ideology from Reagan, who expanded the Earned Income Tax Credit, to today’s presidential candidates, whose fiscal plans largely revolve around permanently lowering the marginal tax rates for the rich and for corporations.

Post: #4

Raising taxes on the rich, who already pay most of them to begin with, isn't going to fix the problem. You could take every dollar of income over 200k on EVERYONE and you still wouldnt close the budget gap. There are simply too many people not paying anything - and that is before you fact in the value of the benefits they are receiving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbRKfXyQ...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u24nH03Nc...r_embedded

Post: #5

Would anyone here like to trade places with the 51%? You get their income and pay no fed income taxes. Any takers?

Post: #6

(02-10-2012 11:58 AM)Menace Wrote:  Would anyone here like to trade places with the 51%? You get their income and pay no fed income taxes. Any takers?

Inflation is a tax on everyone.

Post: #7

(02-10-2012 10:38 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  http://www.nationaljournal.com/member/ma...print=true

Article doesn't work.

However, my California taxes alone this year probably covered the 51%.

Post: #8

California is a great example of how high taxes dont fix the problem of overspending. Illinois and CA are some of (if not the) highest tax rates in the nation and both are insolvent.

Post: #9

(02-10-2012 10:46 AM)Brian Wrote:  sounds to me like 51% aren't paying their 'fair share'.....

It's because 51% of the country is basically broke. Can't squeeze blood out of a rock.

Also, Brian the super rich aren't making most their money from income. They make it from things like capital gains. Making money off money. There's a huge difference between income and wealth.

Post: #10

(02-10-2012 12:36 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 10:46 AM)Brian Wrote:  sounds to me like 51% aren't paying their 'fair share'.....

It's because 51% of the country is basically broke. Can't squeeze blood out of a rock.

they're not broke if they're dining out, taking vacations, going to pro sporting events or concerts, driving a car worth more then 5k, watching 150 channels of cable on a 60" flat screen, and talking/texting on an Iphone w/unlimited data. the 'poor' in America live better then the middle class in most of the world.

Post: #11

(02-10-2012 12:42 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 12:36 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 10:46 AM)Brian Wrote:  sounds to me like 51% aren't paying their 'fair share'.....

It's because 51% of the country is basically broke. Can't squeeze blood out of a rock.

they're not broke if they're dining out, taking vacations, going to pro sporting events or concerts, driving a car worth more then 5k, watching 150 channels of cable on a 60" flat screen, and talking/texting on an Iphone w/unlimited data. the 'poor' in America live better then the middle class in most of the world.

Well, we do have "American Exceptionalism" right?

Post: #12

(02-10-2012 12:42 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 12:36 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 10:46 AM)Brian Wrote:  sounds to me like 51% aren't paying their 'fair share'.....

It's because 51% of the country is basically broke. Can't squeeze blood out of a rock.

they're not broke if they're dining out, taking vacations, going to pro sporting events or concerts, driving a car worth more then 5k, watching 150 channels of cable on a 60" flat screen, and talking/texting on an Iphone w/unlimited data. the 'poor' in America live better then the middle class in most of the world.

I think it's safe to say that half this country if not more is living paycheck to paycheck. You criticized them for consumption but most of our economy is based on consumption. If these 51% were to stop spending what meager disposable income they have we'd be in a permanent recession. It's not like we'd be able to make up for it with exports or oil or gold.

Post: #13

(02-10-2012 01:15 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 12:42 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 12:36 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 10:46 AM)Brian Wrote:  sounds to me like 51% aren't paying their 'fair share'.....

It's because 51% of the country is basically broke. Can't squeeze blood out of a rock.

they're not broke if they're dining out, taking vacations, going to pro sporting events or concerts, driving a car worth more then 5k, watching 150 channels of cable on a 60" flat screen, and talking/texting on an Iphone w/unlimited data. the 'poor' in America live better then the middle class in most of the world.

I think it's safe to say that half this country if not more is living paycheck to paycheck. You criticized them for consumption but most of our economy is based on consumption. If these 51% were to stop spending what meager disposable income they have we'd be in a permanent recession. It's not like we'd be able to make up for it with exports or oil or gold.

so we should applaud those with no money saved for sacrificing their own financial futures by not saving money now so that can buy stuff they dont need for the good of the economy?

Post: #14

(02-10-2012 01:18 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 01:15 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 12:42 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 12:36 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 10:46 AM)Brian Wrote:  sounds to me like 51% aren't paying their 'fair share'.....

It's because 51% of the country is basically broke. Can't squeeze blood out of a rock.

they're not broke if they're dining out, taking vacations, going to pro sporting events or concerts, driving a car worth more then 5k, watching 150 channels of cable on a 60" flat screen, and talking/texting on an Iphone w/unlimited data. the 'poor' in America live better then the middle class in most of the world.

I think it's safe to say that half this country if not more is living paycheck to paycheck. You criticized them for consumption but most of our economy is based on consumption. If these 51% were to stop spending what meager disposable income they have we'd be in a permanent recession. It's not like we'd be able to make up for it with exports or oil or gold.

so we should applaud those with no money saved for sacrificing their own financial futures by not saving money now so that can buy stuff they dont need for the good of the economy?

We probably should applaud those people.

If it wasn't for them, half of American corporations would go under.

Post: #15

(02-10-2012 01:20 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 01:18 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 01:15 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 12:42 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 12:36 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  It's because 51% of the country is basically broke. Can't squeeze blood out of a rock.

they're not broke if they're dining out, taking vacations, going to pro sporting events or concerts, driving a car worth more then 5k, watching 150 channels of cable on a 60" flat screen, and talking/texting on an Iphone w/unlimited data. the 'poor' in America live better then the middle class in most of the world.

I think it's safe to say that half this country if not more is living paycheck to paycheck. You criticized them for consumption but most of our economy is based on consumption. If these 51% were to stop spending what meager disposable income they have we'd be in a permanent recession. It's not like we'd be able to make up for it with exports or oil or gold.

so we should applaud those with no money saved for sacrificing their own financial futures by not saving money now so that can buy stuff they dont need for the good of the economy?

We probably should applaud those people.

If it wasn't for them, half of American corporations would go under.

This country has some tough times ahead of it. I feel bad for anyone who doesnt realize that, or who has the 'it can't happen here' mentality. Take a look at whats going on in Greece today and unless something drastic changes financially you're getting a preview of whats going to happen here in a few years.

Post: #16

I love it when the upper tax brackets bitch about how they pay 80% of the taxes in this country. As they well should, owning 80% of the wealth!

* Actual statistics may vary, but you get the point.

Post: #17

(02-10-2012 02:25 PM)MSW2007 Wrote:  I love it when the upper tax brackets bitch about how they pay 80% of the taxes in this country. As they well should, owning 80% of the wealth!

* Actual statistics may vary, but you get the point.

I very rarely hear the upper tax bracket complain about taxes at all. It's usually those below them that believe that the upper class should be taxed more or middle class should be taxed less

Post: #18

(02-10-2012 01:25 PM)Brian Wrote:  Take a look at whats going on in Greece today and unless something drastic changes financially you're getting a preview of whats going to happen here in a few years.

Greece doesn't have the highest incarceration rate in the world, leading to the prison industrial complex and the associated costs. Greece also doesn't have the military industrial complex and didn't blow a trillion dollars in Iraq with nothing to show for it but dead bodies and a recession. Greece also doesn't have the revenue potential that the USA does.

Post: #19

Yes, Brian, I think we all know whose side you're on at this point.

Of course the "51% of Americans pay no federal income taxes" trope is highly misleading because it ignores payroll taxes, sales taxes, and other state and local taxes which all fall disproportionately on the poor. Overall, the US tax system is mildly progressive but not nearly as much as other developed countries, and certainly not as much as those pushing that bogus statistic would have you believe:

Source

This is also evident from the observation that the US has much a higher post-tax-and-transfer-poverty rate than other OECD countries despite having an average poverty rate before taxes and transfers:

Post: #20

(02-10-2012 02:34 PM)canucktraveller Wrote:  I very rarely hear the upper tax bracket complain about taxes at all. It's usually those below them that believe that the upper class should be taxed more or middle class should be taxed less

They don't have to since they have their surrogates to do it for them, and the business community uses organizations like the Chamber of Commerce to plead their case and lobby for lower taxes.

Post: #21

(02-10-2012 02:39 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 01:25 PM)Brian Wrote:  Take a look at whats going on in Greece today and unless something drastic changes financially you're getting a preview of whats going to happen here in a few years.

Greece doesn't have the highest incarceration rate in the world, leading to the prison industrial complex and the associated costs. Greece also doesn't have the military industrial complex and didn't blow a trillion dollars in Iraq with nothing to show for it but dead bodies and a recession. Greece also doesn't have the revenue potential that the USA does.

so the reason people are in jail is because of the prison industrial complex, not because, you know, they committed crimes? i agree there are some people in jail that shouldnt be there for committing non violent drug offenses (specifically marijuana), but i think there are an awful lot of rapists, murderers, and thieves that certainly belong there because of their crimes, not because of the prison industrial complex.

Post: #22

The reason why we are in this situation isn't just because 50% don't pay taxes.

Our government is acting in ways that give off vibes that it does NOT want to support business here.
It needs to get a number of things under control, and vocally address them so business owners can be at peace and WANT to invest in the US (primarily benefit programs). Corporations have record levels of cash on hand because they are scared not only of the current economic crisis (which the consequences of it haven't even been seen yet), but also because they have no idea how much an investment will cost due to the government not being clear on numerous issues.

The tax system is far too complicated, and should be reduced significantly into something much more simplistic, I do not have the solution to the current tax problem but things needs to become simpler.

As for complaining about the plutocracy, you are either a have, or a have not. Talk your idealistic world all you like, but it is just talk, hierarchies will always exist.

Post: #23

(02-10-2012 02:25 PM)MSW2007 Wrote:  I love it when the upper tax brackets bitch about how they pay 80% of the taxes in this country. As they well should, owning 80% of the wealth!

* Actual statistics may vary, but you get the point.

Don't tell me you're one of those people that thinks being successful and wealthy means you're evil and greedy.

You think just because another man needs something that means you owe him?

I hate this mentality.

Property rights and the ability to own your own wealth without fear of the gov't seizing it are a joke in this country.

People like you just decide they're owed more and politicians buy your vote by promising more entitlement benefits to people that are poor for a reason. It's not the republican party's job to make poor people fiscally responsible. The democrats aren't doing a goddamn thing to foster the growth of business (the only thing that can be done) and before you talk about higher education (joke, if everyone has a college degree it's as useful as a highschool diploma) consider that has to be paid for too. And that is an entitlement program by the time taxes are paid by people at the point of a gun.

I'm not rich, but I want to be one day, and setting an arbitrary barrier on income levels of what is "rich" is the quickest way to make sure no one ever crosses it.

Yes Gmanifesto, American Exceptionalism is real. We were the country that coined the phrase "to make money" through ingenuity and hard work.

If you consider the wealth we CREATE (not steal from other countries like so many liberals like to howl) that alone is exceptional.

If you look at the science our country produces, it is exceptional

Our culture in music and entertainment pervades all over the world more than any other place. Exceptional

Our performance in the Olympics.

I could go on and on, all this was not BUILT on the redistribution of wealth stolen at the point of a gun to give entitlement programs to capable people.

Corporations are not "evil" for making a profit. Man is not "evil" for making a profit. Making money is not "evil".

And if you want to be real about it. All of these companies that are doing malicious bullshit are using laws the gov't put into place like billy clubs to beat back competition and petition politicians to put stupid barriers up so more people can't enter the market.

This is not a free country any longer, and that is what made it great.

Post: #24

(02-10-2012 02:47 PM)Brian Wrote:  so the reason people are in jail is because of the prison industrial complex, not because, you know, they committed crimes?

How do you get this from what I wrote?? However, the truth of the matter is that prisons are big business in the USA, which is why the USA now has publicly traded companies (e.g., corrections corporation of america, geo group, etc.) building prisons, even some on "speculation," and operating prisons, where the more inmates they house - the more profit they earn.

Right now, Republican Governor Rick Scott Walker in Florida is trying to turn over 16,000 inmates to publically traded companies. You think these companies don't have an incentive to do things like take away "good time credits" so they can keep their for-profit prisons full? You think these wall street companies don't lobby for tougher sentencing laws to increase incarceration?

I'm not saying there aren't bad people that NEED to be locked up, but don't believe that there isn't an economic incentive to lock people up as well. The problem is - jurisdictions are just starting to realize how much it REALLY costs to keep people locked up and the resources eatin up.

Post: #25

(02-10-2012 03:01 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 02:47 PM)Brian Wrote:  so the reason people are in jail is because of the prison industrial complex, not because, you know, they committed crimes?

How do you get this from what I wrote?? However, the truth of the matter is that prisons are big business in the USA, which is why the USA now has publicly traded companies (e.g., corrections corporation of america, geo group, etc.) building prisons, even some on "speculation," and operating prisons, where the more inmates they house - the more profit they earn.

Right now, Republican Governor Rick Scott Walker in Florida is trying to turn over 16,000 inmates to publically traded companies. You think these companies don't have an incentive to do things like take away "good time credits" so they can keep their for-profit prisons full? You think these wall street companies don't lobby for tougher sentencing laws to increase incarceration?

I'm not saying there aren't bad people that NEED to be locked up, but don't believe that there isn't an economic incentive to lock people up as well. The problem is - jurisdictions are just starting to realize how much it REALLY costs to keep people locked up and the resources eatin up.

Jay, that's crap.

The reason states are privatizing prisons is because the state can't pay for it and companies have found a way to be profitable.

All of that bullshit that people are forced to pay for (TSA in the airports for example) SHOULD be privatized. The service and efficiency is always better and the taxpayer is relieved of a burden.