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3 Questions on method, order and routine
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Hardy Daytona Offline
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3 Questions on method, order and routine
I've been in a bit of a quandary over the last couple of days with my workouts and I'm hoping to get some clarification.

Normally when I'm lifting, for example free bench, I increase the weights as I progress through the sets. For example, 1/2 at 27.5 kg, 3/4 at 32.5 kg and 5/6 at 37.5 kg.
However, a few of the people I talk to at my gym and here advocate the decreasing 2's & 20's method.
I do try to increase my maximum weight every so often but I'm not sure which is more practical. I'm sure each has their benefits but I'm not sure about the quantifiable information.

I'm also not sure about the order of my routine. On days when I do shoulder press and incline lifts I don't know which should take precedence. Basically, should the most energy-consuming exercise should come last or first?

The last thing I'm wondering about is whether my exercises are conducive to my goals. Monday is core day but I don't know if what I'm doing will facilitate it. It normally comprises squats, leg raises, machine abdominal crunches, back extensions and weighted twist sit-ups. Should I cut any of those out in favour of other sets or is it a good mix-up?

One last question: can anyone suggest a good compound lift that focuses on the biceps? I had considered curls but I gather that the investment to return ratio makes it an inefficient one to do.
Thanks
04-08-2015 10:55 AM
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H1N1 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
You've asked whether your exercises are conducive to your goals, then not listed your goals.

You've stated Monday is core day, then mainly described a leg day.

I have no idea from your post whether you're just winging it or whether you are following a proven program. From the bench numbers you've posted, if those are the numbers you're working with, you are not making the progress you should be, but again, it is hard to know why you are in a quandary or how your program could be improved without actually having any of the relevant information to make an assessment or offer advice.
04-08-2015 11:02 AM
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RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
I echo literally every word of H1N1's.

As for this bit:

(04-08-2015 10:55 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  One last question: can anyone suggest a good compound lift that focuses on the biceps? I had considered curls but I gather that the investment to return ratio makes it an inefficient one to do.
Thanks

You cannot use a compound move to focus on a muscle, especially one as small as the bicep (only two heads remember!).

What is an investment to return ratio exactly (in this context)?
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2015 11:40 AM by Saweeep.)
04-08-2015 11:40 AM
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Bilboswaggins Offline
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RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Always focus on big multi-joint (compound) lifts before any accessory work. On your push day, do bench before incline and military.

Core work? Well, if you actually mean getting stronger I would apply some gymnastic-type core work such as L-sit and go from there. Start with hanging leg raises and try to hold your legs as long as possible. If by core work you mean getting a six pack, get your diet in order. Personally I don't do any core exercises, because heavy squats, deadlifts and even pull-ups get the job done.

Couldn't really understand the bit about progression, but if you can add more weight to the bar or do more reps with the same weight, then you're getting bigger and stronger.

If you think of ROI as I think you are which means spending least time doing actual training but getting most results, do weighted chins and you won't need curls.

From what you've written, I think you're doing a typical ''bro'' split and maybe not getting optimal results. Stick to full body as a newb and move to pull/push/legs if you're out of that phase.

Also, could you clarify your goals and what type of training you are doing right now?
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 05:08 AM by Bilboswaggins.)
04-09-2015 04:56 AM
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Hardy Daytona Offline
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RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Quote:You've asked whether your exercises are conducive to your goals, then not listed your goals.

That's actually a good question. Now that I think about it, I don't have a quantifiable goal right now.
I mean, when I first started out 11 months ago it was to train for proficiency to join the military. That didn't pan out but I've kept going since and re-focused some of the cardio to lifts.
From an aesthetic perspective I look in better shape now than I have my whole life. But to be balanced I was always the kid who shied away from physical activity in school, so that's probably not saying too much.
I don't really have any milestones except that I want to keep lifting more. Adding more weights as time goes by. I do it as much for the psychological benefit as the physical.
I guess the philosophy of strong body, strong mind, strong will is the most concise answer. I know it's not very empirical but it's the best I can offer.

Quote:You've stated Monday is core day, then mainly described a leg day.
It seems I may have been operating under a misconception then.
I was under the impression that squats and leg raises exercised the abdominal muscles as well as the legs. But if that isn't the case then clearly I need to switch them out for something else.

Quote:I have no idea from your post whether you're just winging it or whether you are following a proven program. From the bench numbers you've posted, if those are the numbers you're working with, you are not making the progress you should be, but again, it is hard to know why you are in a quandary or how your program could be improved without actually having any of the relevant information to make an assessment or offer advice.

The best description would be an amalgamation. It's my own routine comprised of the best advice I've heard from program recommendations.
As I said, I've been at it for 11 months and the most I could bench when I started out was 30 kg on the 6th set. I'm up to 37.5 kg now (40 on a high test. day) and I can shoulder press about a 3rd more than I could back then. So I am making gains, but I'm not sure if I've been doing in the right way by opting for the 6x6 when others suggest the decreasing 2's & 20's.

From a physical standpoint my upper body muscles are much more prominent and defined than they have been in the past, but there's not much in the data to show it. I stand at 5' 11" and weigh about 62-64 kg which is about what I had when I started. Lots of people advocate the benefits of cutting in their diets but I don't think that's applicable in my case.

Quote:What is an investment to return ratio exactly (in this context)?
The amount of energy invested compared to the muscular gains reaped i.e. if feeling completely knackered really does indicate a good exercise.

Quote:Always focus on big multi-joint (compound) lifts before any accessory work.
So squats before incline benches.

Quote:Start with hanging leg raises and try to hold your legs as long as possible.
I've been doing the leg raises with arm-rests and focusing more on reps than holding. I'll try adding some holds in and switching to hanging.

Quote:Stick to full body as a newb and move to pull/push/legs if you're out of that phase.

I'm not sure because my information is limited but from what I know my routine is fairly eclectic. I've been considering breaking it up into focus days so that I can give more attention to those areas on said days.

I hope that clarifies a few things.
04-09-2015 06:45 AM
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H1N1 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
(04-09-2015 06:45 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  
Quote:You've asked whether your exercises are conducive to your goals, then not listed your goals.

That's actually a good question. Now that I think about it, I don't have a quantifiable goal right now.
I mean, when I first started out 11 months ago it was to train for proficiency to join the military. That didn't pan out but I've kept going since and re-focused some of the cardio to lifts.
From an aesthetic perspective I look in better shape now than I have my whole life. But to be balanced I was always the kid who shied away from physical activity in school, so that's probably not saying too much.
I don't really have any milestones except that I want to keep lifting more. Adding more weights as time goes by. I do it as much for the psychological benefit as the physical.
I guess the philosophy of strong body, strong mind, strong will is the most concise answer. I know it's not very empirical but it's the best I can offer.

Quote:You've stated Monday is core day, then mainly described a leg day.
It seems I may have been operating under a misconception then.
I was under the impression that squats and leg raises exercised the abdominal muscles as well as the legs. But if that isn't the case then clearly I need to switch them out for something else.

Quote:I have no idea from your post whether you're just winging it or whether you are following a proven program. From the bench numbers you've posted, if those are the numbers you're working with, you are not making the progress you should be, but again, it is hard to know why you are in a quandary or how your program could be improved without actually having any of the relevant information to make an assessment or offer advice.

The best description would be an amalgamation. It's my own routine comprised of the best advice I've heard from program recommendations.
As I said, I've been at it for 11 months and the most I could bench when I started out was 30 kg on the 6th set. I'm up to 37.5 kg now (40 on a high test. day) and I can shoulder press about a 3rd more than I could back then. So I am making gains, but I'm not sure if I've been doing in the right way by opting for the 6x6 when others suggest the decreasing 2's & 20's.

From a physical standpoint my upper body muscles are much more prominent and defined than they have been in the past, but there's not much in the data to show it. I stand at 5' 11" and weigh about 62-64 kg which is about what I had when I started. Lots of people advocate the benefits of cutting in their diets but I don't think that's applicable in my case.

Quote:What is an investment to return ratio exactly (in this context)?
The amount of energy invested compared to the muscular gains reaped i.e. if feeling completely knackered really does indicate a good exercise.

Quote:Always focus on big multi-joint (compound) lifts before any accessory work.
So squats before incline benches.

Quote:Start with hanging leg raises and try to hold your legs as long as possible.
I've been doing the leg raises with arm-rests and focusing more on reps than holding. I'll try adding some holds in and switching to hanging.

Quote:Stick to full body as a newb and move to pull/push/legs if you're out of that phase.

I'm not sure because my information is limited but from what I know my routine is fairly eclectic. I've been considering breaking it up into focus days so that I can give more attention to those areas on said days.

I hope that clarifies a few things.

Ok. To level with you, when you say you've amalgamated the best advice from proven programs to create your routine, you've actually done the opposite. The trouble is, as a beginner with no athletic history, you aren't in a position to read these programs and understand the principles behind them. This is clear, as you appear to have put together all the worst bits/least important bits of any program you've read and combined them all in a big, non-specific way. Please don't take this badly, I think most of us who've had any success and longevity here would also look back to the start of our training and wish we'd done something different.

Strong body, strong mind, strong will is a fine principle and it is a principle that guides my own training, but it isn't a goal. Given your numbers, a clear goal would be to bench press 45kg by the end of this month (easily possible).

If you are serious, I will make the offer to help you. Up to you whether you'd like to accept the offer. I'm just a stranger on the internet (albeit from the same country), and there's no reason you should accept such an offer. That said, think about it, and if you'd like I will put a program together for you, and some diet help. I'll also help you regularly via PM or in this thread, whichever you like, while you are learning and making improvements. If you would like to accept the offer, I'd ask that as a courtesy for the time and effort I'll spend on helping you, that you only accept if you are prepared to commit 100% to getting the work for the week done, and to eat as I suggest.

To help you make the decision, this is what I'd like to know from you exactly, and what I'd broadly offer to help you with:

1. What do you typically eat and drink each day? No exaggeration, no anomolies. Break it down as follows:

Breakfast - eg. 2 eggs, 2 brown bread toasted with butter, an apple, and a glass of orange juice. Or, equally, I don't eat breakfast because skipping it give you abs allegedly.

Lunch - eg. 1 piece meat (and approximate size), 1 large bowl of rice(and approximate size, half a bag of greens

Dinner - eg. same as lunch.

I'm not saying that's your diet plan, just asking you to break down your meals, and any juice, fizzy drinks or milk in a format that makes your daily intake clear.

2. How old are you, and do you have full control of your diet? Typically what do you spend a week on food/can you influence your food choices if you don't do the shopping in your household?

3. How exactly do you train currently - give me a typical week. Weights, sets, exercises chosen and the order you do them in.

4. How often are you able (read: prepared to make time) to train? Think carefully about this because I will expect you to honour this statement. I don't care what days you do the work I'd give you on, but I do care that you get it all done in the space of 7/8 days.

5. What kind of gym do you train in? Is there a good free weight section, is it exclusively machines/smith machines, do you even have a gym or just train at home?


If you are serious, we can help you get fit, strong, muscular and tough, if you will make the commitment. If not, no worries and the best of luck.
04-09-2015 07:20 AM
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Hardy Daytona Offline
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Post: #7
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Quote:Ok. To level with you, when you say you've amalgamated the best advice from proven programs to create your routine, you've actually done the opposite. The trouble is, as a beginner with no athletic history, you aren't in a position to read these programs and understand the principles behind them. This is clear, as you appear to have put together all the worst bits/least important bits of any program you've read and combined them all in a big, non-specific way. Please don't take this badly, I think most of us who've had any success and longevity here would also look back to the start of our training and wish we'd done something different.
While I know more now that I have in the past, I need to remember relativity. There's people out there who've been doing this for decades so in the grand scheme of things I'm still ignorant. But the knowledge game is the same as the training itself - a journey.

Quote:If you are serious, I will make the offer to help you. Up to you whether you'd like to accept the offer. I'm just a stranger on the internet (albeit from the same country), and there's no reason you should accept such an offer. That said, think about it, and if you'd like I will put a program together for you, and some diet help. I'll also help you regularly via PM or in this thread, whichever you like, while you are learning and making improvements. If you would like to accept the offer, I'd ask that as a courtesy for the time and effort I'll spend on helping you, that you only accept if you are prepared to commit 100% to getting the work for the week done, and to eat as I suggest.
Well, I don't have a program at the moment. I've done the 30 day cold shower program and the 40 day nofap program. I could certainly use a new one since those are done.
I'm in.
I realize that the word of a stranger on the internet isn't worth much , but here at the RVF we try to foster the principles of integrity and honour. So I give my word that I will commit 100% for 1 month to your advice. I'd like to keep it here in the thread so it can be monitored by other board users.

Quote:1. What do you typically eat and drink each day? No exaggeration, no anomolies.

Breakfast - 1 mug of milk, 1 mug of coffee and 3 pieces of eetabix with a tablespoon of sugar topping.
Lunch - Nothing. Sometimes I have 2 grilled bacon, 2 fried egg and a tin of heinz spaghetti but that's more of an exception than a rule.
Dinner - 1 fillet breaded cod/haddock, 2 grilled beefburgers, medium portion of chips and from-frozen mixed vegetables. All cooked by oven or microwave or george foreman. Every other day I substitute out the fish & burgers for a steak and ale fray bentos pie.

I know my calorie intake needs to be in excess of 3,000 to be gaining substantial mass but I can't manage it because of my threshold. I get the puking sensation way too early into the meal to add much more onto the plate. And I sometimes get a little queasy from breakfast. Maybe it's the coffee/weetabix combination....

Quote:2. How old are you, and do you have full control of your diet? Typically what do you spend a week on food/can you influence your food choices if you don't do the shopping in your household?

25 and yes. I'm not the household shopper but I can get my own food so long as its within a reasonable budget i.e. nothing above Marks and Sparks grade. My culinary skills aren't fantastic - I can just about whip up a spaghetti bolognaise.

Quote:3. How exactly do you train currently - give me a typical week. Weights, sets, exercises chosen and the order you do them in.
Monday
1km treadmill run in ~5 minutes. 2 minutes cool down afterwards.
6 minute rest.
Usually a wait of 10-20 minutes for the next machine. Sometimes I can hop straight on but that's a blue moon.
6 sets of 6 reps of incline bench press with the pulley squat rack (the one that makes it a little easier to return to starting position) 2 sets at 32.5 kg, 2 sets at 37.5 kg and 2 sets at 42.5 kg. About a minute's rest between sets.
6x6 of free weight squats. 2 sets at 30 kg, 2 sets at 35 kg and 2 sets at 40 kg. 2-3 minutes rest between sets.
Refill water and take a piss.
6x12 of arm-rest leg raises. About a minute between sets. Last set I usually do 30.
6x6 10 kg weighted incline twist sit-ups. A minute rest between sets, followed by 30 straight sit-ups.

I know I mentioned abdominal crunches and back extensions but those are very recent so I won't include them.

Wednesday
1km treadmill run in ~5 minutes. 2 minutes cool down afterwards.
6 minute rest.
10-20 minute machine wait.
6x6 flat free bench press. 2 sets at 27.5 kg, 2 sets at 32.5 kg and 2 sets at 37.5 kg. About minute rest for sets 1-4, 3 minutes for 5&6.
6x12 of arm-rest leg raises. About a minute between sets.
Refill water and take a piss.
6x6 machine shoulder press at 32 kg. A minute rest between sets.
Decreasing 2's & 20's machine chest press. 52/45/41/39/34/32/27/25/20/18 kg. 1-2 minutes rest between sets after set 4.
Refill water and take a piss.
6x5 wide-grip palm-out chin-ups. About a minute rest between sets.

Friday
Same as Wednesday
Hope that's all you need to know. If I've missed out any details let me know.

Quote:4. How often are you able (read: prepared to make time) to train? Think carefully about this because I will expect you to honour this statement. I don't care what days you do the work I'd give you on, but I do care that you get it all done in the space of 7/8 days.

My sessions usually last 1.5-2 hours depending on how busy it is. If that's insufficient that I'm prepared to make 3.5 hours on the specified days. Usually around mid-morning.

Quote:5. What kind of gym do you train in? Is there a good free weight section, is it exclusively machines/smith machines, do you even have a gym or just train at home?

I'm not sure how to classify it. Single floor, about 50 square metres. Both machines (Matrix brand) and free weights but there's only 2 squat racks - 1 free and 1 pulley. As I said, there can be a wait depending on how busy it is - most I've had to wait is 25 minutes.

I'll even offer to take photographic evidence of my compliance if someone can tell me how to wipe the exif data from photos.
04-10-2015 09:49 AM
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H1N1 Offline
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RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Ok, here is what I would propose:

I am about to detail a comprehensive training plan, and give you the reasonings behind it. I appreciate your comment about committing to it 100% for 1 month, but I'm going to ask you to commit to it 100% for 12 weeks as an initial cycle. I am optimistic that you will be encouraged by the training program and my explanations, and I hope you will not see this as an imposition, rather an opportunity. There are a number of reasons for this:

1. I expect you to be able to make linear progress for at least the next 12 weeks

2. Given your starting point, it will take you longer than four weeks to ingrain the changes you need to make to set yourself up for future success. After 1 month, it is all too easy to program hop, find excuses, etc.

3. I am serious about trying to help you, and I do not feel it is a particular commitment on my part to offer you some online help over the course of a month. A longer investment by me in your success is likely to reap greater results for you. As your progress will be the only reward I recoup from this, I would like it to be worthwhile.


I'm going to cover principles first, and then give you a template for diet and food at the end. Please do not skip the principles part, as anyone who has experienced any kind of success will tell you that principles count for far more than templates or routines.

A Diet

The first thing to start with is diet. There is a lot of room for improvement, and a commitment to the training plan is worth very little without a commitment to a diet plan. If cooking is not your forte, I will help you by trying to give you easy, tasty recipes and affordable food choices. You should feel free to ask me any questions you like on this.

The first diet mandate is that I want you to get used to eating 3 meals per day. I don't mind how you spread them out. For the first week or two, I don't actually mind whether you increase your calorie intake or just spread out your existing intake through the day, the important thing in the first instance is to ingrain the mentality that eating supports your performance/appearance goals.

The second mandate will be to gradually improve the food choices you are making. There is only one instance of meat and veg in your daily diet. That will not be enough to support support appreciable progress. Without wanting to be overly harsh, you need to get in the mindset that if you want to look and perform like a badass, you need to start eating like one. Your diet currently is childish. We cannot accept that as an unshakable reality if we want to make progress. You must commit to improving the way in which you fuel your body, even if you only start by adding an apple once a day. This mandate is one of the reasons I want you to commit to at least 12 weeks - there is too much work to be done, and the changes would be unsustainabe if we tried to make them all at once.

The third diet mandate is that once you are comfortable eating three meals per day, I want you to try to increase the amount of food you eat over your three meal period. It can be as easy as adding another glass of milk, or another slice of meat, or even a spoonful more rice, and it doesn't have to be to every single meal (initially). You are seriously undereating, and it is the reason your lifts are not what they could be.

The fourth mandate, to help you put it all together, is I want you to journal what you eat. It can be here, or on paper, but I'd like you to write it down, and share it with me at the end of each week. Accountability, to yourself and to someone who is doing your programming, is the most effective way to push yourself to make progress. I would like you, when you are writing down your day's food, to be looking at it and comparing it to the day, or week before, and competing with yourself to make progress by consistently, incrementally improving, both the quality and quantity of what you're eating.

Tip - cook meals in advance, or make a lot of something and just reheat it for another meal. If you can make spaghetti, make enough for 5 portions, for example.


B Training

Again, your routine can be dramatically improved upon. We're going to throw it out completely, so I won't dwell on details, but your chest is essentially the only thing being worked, and even that is less effective than it could be.

The philosophy of your routine, from previous posts, is going to be to make you a stronger, tougher, fitter individual. In prioritising strength, fitness, and toughness, we will need to make room for exercises that play a support role to those goals, building the surrounding musculature and making you resilient to injury.

One of the reasons I want you to commit to 12 weeks is that we need to phase your training. The first month will be about establishing habits, assessing your current level and ability to recover, and ingraining belief in this method of training. The second month will see you mainly trying to build on the strength aspect of this, and in the third month, we'll look to push more on the conditioning as well. Every day, of every week, for 12 weeks, we will be trying to end each day as a better athlete than we started it.

To get down to the actual philosophy of the routine itself, here is how we are going to structure your training:

You've said you'll go to the gym 3x per week. I'd prefer it to be four, but three is plenty to make progress, and we will work with that initially.

Each gym workout will be based around a primary movement. As someone who is not a competitive strength athlete, your aim in this movement is to get stronger, rather than to get better at performing the movement itself. This movement will be the first thing we do at the gym, and will be our primary measure of progress for the first 12 weeks. This movement will always be free weight-based. Machines are for assistance, never for primary movements.

We will then perform one or two assistance exercises, aimed at either inducing further hypertrophy in the muscles involved in the first movement, or in the antagonist/supportive musculature. We will also add in one exercise where the primary purpose is maintaining health/resistance to injury. I prefer to do one after the other in a giant set, and rest after each cycle through, but it's really up to you and how you feel. More on that in the program itself.

Finally, the last thing we do on any training day will be conditioning/muscular endurance based, and is intended to reduce the speed at which you fatigue, and improve your base level of performance. The aim of this is to leave you pretty smoked at the end of the workout, and to build your toughness.

In addition to the gym days, there will be a prescribed amount of 'homework', which is exactly what you're afraid I'm talking about - a total number of reps of a few bodyweight movements that I want you to achieve each week in addition to the time you spend at the gym. This will also help build up supporting musculature and increase the efficiency of the time you spend in the gym.

The other more general point to have in mind is that consistency and effort trump everything. Not every day will be a good day. Showing up over a prolonged period of time is what counts and leads to substantial gains. No individual day is important performance-wise, unless you're skipping it altogether.

Programs

I will give you a week by week template, to try to help you set small, manageable goals each week for improving aspects of diet and training. I will adjust from week to week based on the feedback you give me, although we will not change the exercises themselves until we've done them for 3 weeks at least (and we may not change them at all for 12 weeks if they are all working - measured by the improvement of the primary movement).

Diet:

It is important to reiterate that unless we sort this, everything else we do will be in vain.

Week 1.

The main goal is simple - I want you to eat 3x daily. Timings are up to you. Calorific make up is up to you. You can eat more, you can eat less, for this first week, I don't mind. You just need to start by setting the habit of eating 3x each day. We'll worry about calorie content and food choices as we progress. For now, just focus on 3 meals each day, whatever it takes.

You also have a sub goal - add one more fruit/vegetable to each day's diet. I expect you to hit this sub goal at least 5/7 days, and you should be disappointed if you don't make all seven. Consistency and commitment at this early stage will stand you in good stead when things get tougher later on.


Training.

Week 1

Workout A:

Bench (flat or incline, up to you, but pick one and it must be a free weight) - 1 x 5 @ 27.5kg, 1 x 5 @ 30kg, 1 x 5-10 @ 32.5, 1 x as many reps as possible @ 27.5kg - the top set is a best effort, stopping 1-2 reps short of failure and doing no more than 10 reps maximum, the back off set at your first set weight is a best effort rep PR. I suggest you warm up with 10 reps with the bar or some pressups, and then go straight into these weights.

Incline DB bench (doesn't matter what you did for your first movement) - 3 straight sets of a weight you can hit for 8-12 reps. This will build strength and mass to support progress in the main muscles of the primary lift.

dumbbell rows - 3 sets of 10 - 20 reps. If you hit 20 reps with a set, add weight to the next set. If not, keep the weight at that level for this exercise until you have a set (however many weeks it takes) that reaches 20 reps. This will build the antagonist muscles for the bench (your back), improve your benching platform, and give you thick, attractive muscles in the back

Rear delt raises - 3 straight sets, pausing at the top of the movement, as many reps per set as you can. Pick a weight you can do at least 8 reps with, and that is light enough that at any point during the movement you could pause and reverse direction. Use the reverse titty machine if you have one, up to you, just get it done. This will keep your shoulders healthy and make you look rounded in profile.

Conditioning: 20 burpees - take as many sets as you need, but make a note of how many and how long it takes you to complete this, and push yourself to be out of breath by the end, because you get to go home when you're done. This aspect will get more demanding over the weeks, but too much too soon will beat you up and I don't know what your level of fitness is.


Workout B

Squats (free weights, with a barbell, front or back squats, whatever you like, pick one and stick with it) - 1 x 5 @ 30kg, 1 x 5 @ 35kg, 1 x 5-10 @ 40kg, 1 x as many reps as possible @ 30kg. The starting weights are the same as your current work weights, as you should be able to improve this lift the quickest, and I suspect you can lift a good bit more once you have some confidence in it.

Stiff leg deadlifts (barbell or dumbell, up to you, whichever you feel happier with) - 1 x as many reps as possible, look up a video if you're unsure on form. Start out light, it's only assistance and we can add weight over the weeks as you feel more comfortable. Focus on form and get a pump in your back and hamstrings, stop short of failure by a few reps.

Chinups 3 x as many as possible, go to failure or thereabouts, whatever you're comfortable with, you'll be pushing to do more total reps week on week, so push hard, but keep the bigger picture in mind

Conditioning: 200 BW squats in as little time as possible. Note the time it takes you and the number of sets. We are going to build up to being able to do 500 in sub 10 minutes as a good guide to fitness.


Workout C

Military press (barbell) - 1 x 5 @ empty bar, 1 x 5 @ 22.5kg, 1 x 5 - 10 @ 25kg (push press it if you have to, just get used to moving weight in this plane of motion) 1 x as many as possible with the empty bar. This will build your shoulders and improve your general pressing strength.

Plate carries (bearhug as much weight as you can handle and walk with it) - 3 x as far as possible, try to note the rough distance so you can beat it next week. This will build the upper back and core to help stabilise your military press.

Chinups - 40 total reps for the workout. You can do sub-max sets inbetween sets of military press if you like, and you might find it makes your shoulders feel good. Doesn't matter about set numbers (keep a note though), just hit this many reps and move on.

Rear delt raises - 2-3 sets, 8-20 reps. Same principle as Workout A.


Conditioning: run 1.5km. Record the time it takes you.


Additional 'homework' - 100 total reps of pressups. 50 total reps of pike pressups. 100 neck raises (lie on the edge of the bed, with your head over it, and curl your neck (UNDER CONTROL) up and down), 200 situps of any kind you like.

You can do this however you like, on whatever days you like. Before bed, while the shower is heating up, while the kettle is boiling, while you're cooking Smile, etc. Don't worry about sets, just get them done, it's about improving your own expectations of yourself and increasing your work capacity gradually.

I have tried to be thorough, but I've been writing for an hour and a half now, so I may have missed something. If at this point you bail on the program, I will hunt you down!!!!!

Disclaimer* you should see a doctor and get a full checkup before undertaking any form of exercise. I am not a licensed medical practitioner.
04-10-2015 11:31 AM
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Hardy Daytona Offline
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Post: #9
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Acknowledged and understood.
Some of the workout exercises I'm not familiar with so I'd like to confirm to make sure I don't do the wrong ones.
Incline DB Bench
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iPEnn-ltC8
DB Rows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-koP10y1qZI
Rear Delt Raises
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttvfGg9d76c
Stiff Leg Deadlift
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uDiW5--rAE
Military Press
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yjwXTZQDDI

The rest I'm good on but when I head to the gym tomorrow I'll speak to some other lifters there and make sure I'm not damaging myself with incorrect form.
04-12-2015 01:25 PM
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H1N1 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
All correct, yes. Remember to document everything you eat, the homework reps, and all your training sessions. It can be minimal, doesn't have to be an essay, just make sure there is enough there that you can see yourself making progress week to week. Either do that here, in this thread, to save you writing it out then rewriting it, or do it on paper if you prefer. This is an important part of the program, an important habit to build, that will really help you over the course of your training life.
04-12-2015 02:21 PM
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Hardy Daytona Offline
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Post: #11
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Monday/Workout A report
3 square meals at 8:15am, 2:30pm and 8:30pm. Added a clementine in after getting back from the gym. I remember why fruit and I are in a nodding relationship.
Free bench press - 10 bar warmup, 1x5 @ 27.5, 1x5 @ 30, 1x10 @ 32.5, 1 min rest, 1x10 @ 27.5
5 min wait for a bench
Incline DB bench - 3x12 @ 28 (2 x 14) Bench level 3. A little shaky on form. Felt a tightness across my chest at low point.
DB rows - 3x20,18,17 @ 14 & 16 Repeated for right arm. Pause to rest at set 3, rep 13.
Rear delt raises - 3x8 @ 20 (2 x 10) Struggled a little with this one. Couldn't pause at the top for more than a second.
Refill water and take a leak.
Burpees - 4x20. 1-55s, 2-1m, 3-1:10, 4-1:20. Standard form, no press-up or jump.
Slight tenderness/soreness in my trapezius muscles on both sides of the neck this morning.
04-14-2015 04:21 AM
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Post: #12
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Good work mate. Good to see you ate 3 meals and your piece of fruit. I will give you detailed feedback and adjustments at the end of each week.

There are a couple of things that would help me when you post your report:

1. The way you've done sets and reps is good, and clear, so it'd be great to keep this as standard formatting.

2. You mentioned your three meals, but not what was in them. By the end of the week, I need to know what you've eaten for each meal of each day. You can keep it as minimal as you like, but I need to be able to get a rough idea of calorie intake and macros. It will be hard to help you get bigger without this information.

3. Something I haven't asked for, but I should have done, would be if you could provide a rating out of 10 for how hard you found the main lift, and one for how hard you found the workout as a whole. That way I can know a bit better how hard to have you push.
04-14-2015 04:52 AM
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Post: #13
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
For the main lift and the whole workout I'd rate about a 7. Not too easy but not teeth-gritted beast mode either. I would note that during the DB rows my reps became a little less smooth and more jerky towards the end.
Monday meals, Breakfast - 1 mug of coffee, 1 mug of milk, 3 weetabix with a tablespoon of sugar. Lunch - 2 grilled bacon slices, 2 friend eggs, 1 small tin of spaghetti, 1 mug of milk, 1 clementine. Dinner - 1 mug of milk, 1 breaded chicken kiev, 2 grilled beefburgers, 1 portion of mix veg, 1 portion of chips.
Tuesday meals - Breakfast - 1 mug of coffee, 1 mug of milk, 3 weetabix with a tablespoon of sugar. Lunch - 2 grilled bacon slices, 2 friend eggs, 1 small tin of spaghetti, 1 mug of milk, 1 small tin of sweetcorn. Dinner - 1 Fay Bentos steak pie, 1 portion of chips, 1 portion of mixed veg.
Give or take 3 cups of coffee during the day between meals.
04-15-2015 03:27 AM
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Post: #14
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
(04-15-2015 03:27 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  For the main lift and the whole workout I'd rate about a 7. Not too easy but not teeth-gritted beast mode either. I would note that during the DB rows my reps became a little less smooth and more jerky towards the end.
Monday meals, Breakfast - 1 mug of coffee, 1 mug of milk, 3 weetabix with a tablespoon of sugar. Lunch - 2 grilled bacon slices, 2 friend eggs, 1 small tin of spaghetti, 1 mug of milk, 1 clementine. Dinner - 1 mug of milk, 1 breaded chicken kiev, 2 grilled beefburgers, 1 portion of mix veg, 1 portion of chips.
Tuesday meals - Breakfast - 1 mug of coffee, 1 mug of milk, 3 weetabix with a tablespoon of sugar. Lunch - 2 grilled bacon slices, 2 friend eggs, 1 small tin of spaghetti, 1 mug of milk, 1 small tin of sweetcorn. Dinner - 1 Fay Bentos steak pie, 1 portion of chips, 1 portion of mixed veg.
Give or take 3 cups of coffee during the day between meals.

Don't worry about your form going a bit during rows. With all your lifts, as you approach your strength threshold, either through max reps or max weight, form is likely to suffer slightly. There is a world of difference between acceptable form that is good enough not to hurt yourself when pushing for progress, and form that is dangerous to your health. Obviously this is harder to judge as a beginner, which is why I've got you doing quite a lot of weights. Your body wants to be efficient, and every rep you do is a piece of skill practise. The idea is that by the time you get on to the sort of weights where you might be able to hurt yourself, your body is familiar with the movement pattern, and acceptable deviations, and will allow you to keep making progress.

Good work on the food, it's good to see you buying into this - that's how you'll see the best results. We'll work on cleaning it up slowly from Monday.

Every Sunday/Monday morning, assuming you have access to scales, I'd like you to weigh yourself, at your absolute lightest. That means before you drink or eat anything, and after your morning crap.

I'd also like you, if you have one, to take a tape measure and take waist, chest, shoulder and leg measurements. This is a great way of measuring progress. If your waist goes up in size, you can just dial back the calories. If your waist and other measurements all go up, then we can judge how long to push the weight gain. If your other measurements go up and your waist stays the same, then you are LEAN BULKING BRAH. Seriously though, the last one is the ideal, and what we'll be shooting for when we start tidying up the diet.

I'd also like you to take (or ideally have someone take) photos of yourself from a few angles, showing as much flesh as possible, so that at the end of each month you can compare them.
04-15-2015 03:54 AM
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Hardy Daytona Offline
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Post: #15
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Wednesday/Workout B report
Meals - Breakfast - 1 mug of coffee, 1 mug of milk, 3 weetabix with a tablespoon of sugar. Lunch - 2 grilled bacon slices, 2 friend eggs, 1 small tin of spaghetti, 1 mug of milk, 1 small tin of sweetcorn. Dinner - 1 Fay Bentos steak pie, 1 portion of chips, 1 portion of mixed veg.
Free squats - 1x5 @ 30, 1m rest, 1x5 @ 35, 1:30 rest, 1x7 @ 40, 2m rest, 1x6 @ 30.
Stiff leg deadlift - 1x10 @ 20. That one felt too easy so I also did 1x10 @ 30.
Chinups - 3x11,8,7. 2m rest in between.
200 BW squats - 4x50. 2.4m, 1m rest, 2.4m, 1:30 rest, 2.4m, 2m rest, 3m, 3m rest.
Overall I'd give it a rating of about 8. I think I could have done more with the squats since I haven't done them for about 2 weeks and my trapezius muscles were still sore. Also the BW squats did something of a number on my hamstrings - on my way back home afterwards I crumbled. I must have looked like a combination of Nicolas Cage and the T-1000 being frozen.

I'll take some measurements and photos tomorrow afternoon.
04-16-2015 08:23 AM
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H1N1 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
(04-16-2015 08:23 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  Wednesday/Workout B report
Meals - Breakfast - 1 mug of coffee, 1 mug of milk, 3 weetabix with a tablespoon of sugar. Lunch - 2 grilled bacon slices, 2 friend eggs, 1 small tin of spaghetti, 1 mug of milk, 1 small tin of sweetcorn. Dinner - 1 Fay Bentos steak pie, 1 portion of chips, 1 portion of mixed veg.
Free squats - 1x5 @ 30, 1m rest, 1x5 @ 35, 1:30 rest, 1x7 @ 40, 2m rest, 1x6 @ 30.
Stiff leg deadlift - 1x10 @ 20. That one felt too easy so I also did 1x10 @ 30.
Chinups - 3x11,8,7. 2m rest in between.
200 BW squats - 4x50. 2.4m, 1m rest, 2.4m, 1:30 rest, 2.4m, 2m rest, 3m, 3m rest.
Overall I'd give it a rating of about 8. I think I could have done more with the squats since I haven't done them for about 2 weeks and my trapezius muscles were still sore. Also the BW squats did something of a number on my hamstrings - on my way back home afterwards I crumbled. I must have looked like a combination of Nicolas Cage and the T-1000 being frozen.

I'll take some measurements and photos tomorrow afternoon.

10 is a very round number. When I write 'as many reps as possible' I don't mind if you are hitting 30 reps or more in a single set, the important thing is that you are pushing yourself. For example, with your 6 reps backoff set on squats @ 30kg, I would rather you took 5 minutes rest or more after your top set @40kg, and then pushed yourself to try to get 20 reps in a single set @ 30kg.

Same as well with the stiff leg deads, shoot for 20 or so reps, and don't sweat it if you only make 14+.

Otherwise, good work. Don't sweat it too much for now, we can use all of this information to continue to tailor the program and develop you over the coming weeks. The most important thing is to get into the mindset of attaching the main set for strength, and then giving yourself enough rest to properly attack the back off set for volume and its muscle building effects.
04-16-2015 08:42 AM
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Post: #17
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Keep up the good work Hardy. You might want to incorporate a protein shake into your meal plan. Protein shakes are great meal replacements and easy sources of protein.

H1N1 your advice is incredibly on point.
04-16-2015 12:52 PM
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RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
(04-16-2015 12:52 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Keep up the good work Hardy. You might want to incorporate a protein shake into your meal plan. Protein shakes are great meal replacements and easy sources of protein.

H1N1 your advice is incredibly on point.

Thanks mate. Protein shakes are always a good idea when you're trying to grow, although at the moment, I'm trying to get Hardy to get used to eating 3 solid meals a day. My thinking is that if he wants to, subsequently, he can look at adding a protein shake on top of the meals. Ideally though, I'd like to avoid swapping solid food for protein shakes except in absolute emergencies, until such time as the habit is ingrained!
04-16-2015 01:14 PM
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Post: #19
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Hardy - Ideally, I'd like you to do the measurements first thing in the morning, at the same time as you weigh yourself (post morning crap). There's a number of reasons for doing this:

1. You can easily add an inch to your waist line when your stomach is full after a couple of meals. I can go from 32" ish in the morning, to over 33" by afternoon.

2. Consistency of measurement (the morning before food is the only time you can guarantee this) will allow us to track progress properly, given the limitations of coaching you over the internet.
04-16-2015 01:18 PM
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Post: #20
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
Thursday & Friday Workout C report
Meals - Breakfast - 1 mug of coffee, 1 mug of milk, 3 weetabix with a tablespoon of sugar. Lunch - 2 grilled bacon slices, 2 friend eggs, 1 small tin of spaghetti, 1 mug of milk, 1 small tin of sweetcorn. Dinner - 1 breaded chicken fillet, 1 portion of chips, 1 portion of mixed veg, 2 beefburgers.

Military press - this one I struggled with more than I expected to. Couldn't budge the 22.5 so I had to reduce. 1x5 @ empty, 2x5 @ 10, 1x5 @ 12.5, 1x15 @ empty.
Plate carries - very awkward - kept slipping out of my grip. Had to use a barbell weight. Tried a dumbbell but it dug into my arms too much. 2x300 paces @ 20. 1x350 @ 20.
Chinups - 4x10
Rear delt raises - 1x12 @ 20, 1x20 @ 16 (second set was much easier - able to hold at apex for ~3 seconds)
1.5km rum - 8m 7s. Could have been much better if my quads weren't in pain.

Meals - Breakfast - 1 mug of coffee, 1 mug of milk, 3 weetabix with a tablespoon of sugar. Lunch - 2 grilled bacon slices, 2 friend eggs, 1 clementine, 1 mug of milk, 1 small tin of spaghetti. Dinner - 1 Fray Bentos steak pie, 1 portion of chips, 1 portion of mixed veg.
04-18-2015 10:12 AM
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RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
(04-18-2015 10:12 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  Thursday & Friday Workout C report
Meals - Breakfast - 1 mug of coffee, 1 mug of milk, 3 weetabix with a tablespoon of sugar. Lunch - 2 grilled bacon slices, 2 friend eggs, 1 small tin of spaghetti, 1 mug of milk, 1 small tin of sweetcorn. Dinner - 1 breaded chicken fillet, 1 portion of chips, 1 portion of mixed veg, 2 beefburgers.

Military press - this one I struggled with more than I expected to. Couldn't budge the 22.5 so I had to reduce. 1x5 @ empty, 2x5 @ 10, 1x5 @ 12.5, 1x15 @ empty.
Plate carries - very awkward - kept slipping out of my grip. Had to use a barbell weight. Tried a dumbbell but it dug into my arms too much. 2x300 paces @ 20. 1x350 @ 20.
Chinups - 4x10
Rear delt raises - 1x12 @ 20, 1x20 @ 16 (second set was much easier - able to hold at apex for ~3 seconds)
1.5km rum - 8m 7s. Could have been much better if my quads weren't in pain.

Meals - Breakfast - 1 mug of coffee, 1 mug of milk, 3 weetabix with a tablespoon of sugar. Lunch - 2 grilled bacon slices, 2 friend eggs, 1 clementine, 1 mug of milk, 1 small tin of spaghetti. Dinner - 1 Fray Bentos steak pie, 1 portion of chips, 1 portion of mixed veg.

1. how are you measuring the weights? You are using a barbell for OHP? You have 25kg TOTAL weight on the bar, that's the olympic bar + 2.5kg each side? Something looks a bit off with your reporting. Can you clarify whether you are counting bar weight towards the total weight, your report has confused me and made me question what total weight you are moving on the other workouts.

2. Plate carries means using a barbell plate, not a dumbbell, so that's the right thing to have been doing. It's supposed to be awkward.

3. When you say for rear delts that you did 1x12 @20, do you mean you used 10kg each side? What are you measuring weights in, this is important? If you can do rear delt raises with 20kg, but can't OHP 25kg, then something very strange is going on.


I need you to try to be as clear as possible with your reporting. I am quite confused by it at the moment, and it is hard to make adjustments without understanding fully where you're at.
04-18-2015 04:08 PM
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Post: #22
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
I was just noticing his pull up volume seemed really high in relation to some of his other lifts. Could be how he's reporting his weight.

Other than that, brilliant thread guys.
04-18-2015 05:14 PM
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Post: #23
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
(04-18-2015 04:08 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  1. how are you measuring the weights? You are using a barbell for OHP? You have 25kg TOTAL weight on the bar, that's the olympic bar + 2.5kg each side? Something looks a bit off with your reporting. Can you clarify whether you are counting bar weight towards the total weight, your report has confused me and made me question what total weight you are moving on the other workouts.

2. Plate carries means using a barbell plate, not a dumbbell, so that's the right thing to have been doing. It's supposed to be awkward.

3. When you say for rear delts that you did 1x12 @20, do you mean you used 10kg each side? What are you measuring weights in, this is important? If you can do rear delt raises with 20kg, but can't OHP 25kg, then something very strange is going on.


I need you to try to be as clear as possible with your reporting. I am quite confused by it at the moment, and it is hard to make adjustments without understanding fully where you're at.

1. Yes I'm using a barbell - same one for squats and benches. I don't know how much the bar itself weighs so when I'm reporting I only use the weights I add to it i.e. 10kg military press = 5 kg each side.

2. Can you link a video that shows the proper form? I'm not sure how my arms are supposed to be positioned during. Also, the max barbell weight is 20kg but that's not very heavy for me since I used to carry around bags of cement. But I doubt I can carry more than one plate.

3. Yes, 10 kg dumbbell in each hand. Measurements are always in kg. The second set was 16 kg (2x8 kg)

Sorry if it's confusing but I'm still getting used to the notation. When I'm at the gym I just scribble in shorthand in my notebook and the transcribe what I've got.
04-19-2015 05:07 AM
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Post: #24
RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
1. Is it a standard olympic barbell? Can you find a picture of the equivalent? It makes a big difference if you aren't including the weight of the barbell. It could be 20kg if it is a standard barbell, and that makes a big difference to your lifts, and how you progress!

2. I'm not sure you need to be too preoccupied with form for a plate carry. Breath deep into your belly (not your chest) and hold that breath as much as you can (deep breaths, hold them as far as possible, don't black out). This will basically create an internal belt that will support your lower back and ensure you're not going to hurt yourself. Try to keep your chest and head up, so your spine is straight. Try using 3x10kg plates if 20kg is too easy, but 40kg is too hard. We're looking to get up to 60kg worth of plate carries over the next 3-6 months.

3. Good.

4! Where are your weight and tape measure measurements?

Standby for this week's program
04-19-2015 02:47 PM
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RE: 3 Questions on method, order and routine
(04-14-2015 04:21 AM)Hardy Daytona Wrote:  Monday/Workout A report
3 square meals at 8:15am, 2:30pm and 8:30pm. Added a clementine in after getting back from the gym. I remember why fruit and I are in a nodding relationship.
Free bench press - 10 bar warmup, 1x5 @ 27.5, 1x5 @ 30, 1x10 @ 32.5, 1 min rest, 1x10 @ 27.5
5 min wait for a bench
Incline DB bench - 3x12 @ 28 (2 x 14) Bench level 3. A little shaky on form. Felt a tightness across my chest at low point.
DB rows - 3x20,18,17 @ 14 & 16 Repeated for right arm. Pause to rest at set 3, rep 13.
Rear delt raises - 3x8 @ 20 (2 x 10) Struggled a little with this one. Couldn't pause at the top for more than a second.
Refill water and take a leak.
Burpees - 4x20. 1-55s, 2-1m, 3-1:10, 4-1:20. Standard form, no press-up or jump.
Slight tenderness/soreness in my trapezius muscles on both sides of the neck this morning.

Week 2 Workout A

Bench press - [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] (you're shooting for 10 reps here again)

Backoff set - As many reps as possible @30kg after your 1x5-10 @ 35kg. Rest 2 minutes or more here. You're not training to be some 'fitness hipster', as Wendler calls it. Last week you did 10 reps (very round number for a best effort set) @27.5kg. This week I want you to shoot for more reps than 10, even though the weight is heavier. Here's how you're going to do it: do as many reps as you can without going to failure, then rack the weight, breathe, count to 15 (1 elephant) unrack the bar, and do as many reps again as you can then rerack the bar, count to 15 and do one more 'set'. This is rest pause training. We're treating this as one big set, but you get 2x very short breaks. The reason for doing this is threefold:

1. Stimulus - this shit will make you grow
2. Practise technique - more reps = get better at the skill of benching
3. Learn how to work really fucking hard - this is how you really make gains. Over time, you may well come to appreciate that there is almost no wrong way to train, and that as long as you train intensely and consistently, you will see results

Dumbbell incline - [email protected] - keep the weight the same here, it's only assistance and you're going to be working harder this week on the main bench work.

Dumbbell rows - slightly confused by your notation on this above. Again, pick a weight and shoot for 3x20 reps. if you get 3x20, we'll increase the weight next week.

Rear delt raises - lower the weight, 10kg/hand is quite a lot here. Try to think that you want to be able to pause at any point during the movement, and hold it for a second. Try to keep that in mind all the way through, it should help you feel the muscle. I want you to try to pause for a good, long second at the top of the movement.

Burpees - 1 set of 30 reps, as fast as possible.



Please get your morning weight and measurements up ASAP, as we need them to consider your diet and to start measuring progress.


Diet:

Well done on eating 3 meals/day last week, and for adding the veg. That is a good start.

I see you are happy eating similar things each day. That's good, but don't hesitate to switch things up if you feel boredom might derail eating 3x/day.

I'd like you to replace your lunch or your dinner with some healthier food choices. You can alternate which one you replace, and we're laying the groundwork here, so if you have the odd lapse I'll understand, but for this week, I'd like you to try to swap lunch or dinner out with one of the following as often as possible:

Spaghetti bolognese - you mentioned that you can make it. That's good, make it yourself with canned tomatoes, mince, onions, mushrooms and peppers. You can make a shit load and reheat it over the week.

Chicken breast/thighs/wings, potato wedges, veg - bake a chicken breast (set the oven to 200c, cook for 25-40 minutes depending on what you have covering it, basically until the juices run clear and there is no pinkness). Buy some pre-made marinades if you like, or put some herbs and spices on it, heat the oven til the light goes out, and stick it in. You can stick the potato wedges in at the same time. Buy some potatoes, cut them into equal sized chunks, dust them in herbs/spices(eg paprika) and olive oil, and sling them in at 200c with the chicken (separate tray).

Pork/lamb chop, rice/potatoes, veg - more or less as above. You can do these on a George Foreman grill if you have one.

Keep the veg/fruit in your diet that you added in last week. All of this is on top of that. I'll do Workout B and C tomorrow. Please do get the measurements up.
04-19-2015 03:21 PM
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