Post: #1

Who has had success with this? I'm about to start it now.

https://stronglifts.com/madcow/5x5_Progr...ar_5x5.htm



It's basically the same as Stronglifts 5x5 except you don't add 5lbs every single workout nor do you always do 5 sets. It seems like it's a well designed programs for intermediate lifters who are past the point of making newbie gains.

My 1RM's have been stuck at the same weights for a long time now so hopefully I will see some success with this program. Part of my problem though is eating enough calories to gain weight, so I'll have to start eating a lot of fast food or some shit if I want to make any progress with this.

Post: #2

It's not a bad program but I personally think the volume is too high, I prefer the starting strength 3x5 approach.

I know a ton of folks who have done this program and the big complaint I hear is that the workout is too long, because you need a fair amount of time between sets to recover.

You don't have to eat fast food. It's sort of a caloric crutch. You can get your cals in with regular meals a day.

Post: #3

Its obviously a very popular intermediate/advanced program with the Starting Strength crowd.

I am a big proponent of Starting Strength, and currently doing a novice program now, mixed in with some shorter met cons and running/cardio workouts on off days. My warm up includes chins, GHD raises, push ups, etc. My cardio days are mostly met con type stuff; jump roping, versa climber, outdoor sports. I am doing Starting Strength 3x per week, squat, press, DL, for 3x5. I expect to be back to a 900lb. total when I am done with it in 10 weeks. Roughly 5 days per week, with the two non-lift cardio days.

For food; make sure you supplement with protein powder. Casein at night is my go to, and whey during the day. Only go the Filet O Fish route if you dont care about the extra fat that comes with it. I did this... its very hard to take off if you are over 30. You will gain muscle though, the more you eat, of all macros, not just protein. Im inclined to believe, from past personal experience, that when you over feed all macros protein/carbs/fat, as opposed to just protein, you will gain more muscle and get stronger faster, than just relying on protein and trying to keep your diet really clean. Again, just personal experience. If you dont care about the excess fat to get big and strong, get your Big Mac and White Castle on. Your nutrition could be a huge factor in your plateau. Post your diet here. Often times people dont eat enough.

If you've done the program and truly hit a plateau as an intermediate(check your lift numbers that you are an actual intermediate based on how much you lift), I would try Madcow, the Texas Method, or any of the Bill Starr programs that supplement Starting Strength. I would also post to the Starting Strength forum with your questions.

Post: #4

T

(09-23-2017 02:11 PM)Vaun Wrote:  Its obviously a very popular intermediate/advanced program with the Starting Strength crowd.

I am a big proponent of Starting Strength, and currently doing a novice program now, mixed in with some shorter met cons and running/cardio workouts on off days. My warm up includes chins, GHD raises, push ups, etc. My cardio days are mostly met con type stuff; jump roping, versa climber, outdoor sports. I am doing Starting Strength 3x per week, squat, press, DL, for 3x5. I expect to be back to a 900lb. total when I am done with it in 10 weeks. Roughly 5 days per week, with the two non-lift cardio days.

For food; make sure you supplement with protein powder. Casein at night is my go to, and whey during the day. Only go the Filet O Fish route if you dont care about the extra fat that comes with it. I did this... its very hard to take off if you are over 30. You will gain muscle though, the more you eat, of all macros, not just protein. Im inclined to believe, from past personal experience, that when you over feed all macros protein/carbs/fat, as opposed to just protein, you will gain more muscle and get stronger faster, than just relying on protein and trying to keep your diet really clean. Again, just personal experience. If you dont care about the excess fat to get big and strong, get your Big Mac and White Castle on. Your nutrition could be a huge factor in your plateau. Post your diet here. Often times people dont eat enough.

If you've done the program and truly hit a plateau as an intermediate(check your lift numbers that you are an actual intermediate based on how much you lift), I would try Madcow, the Texas Method, or any of the Bill Starr programs that supplement Starting Strength. I would also post to the Starting Strength forum with your questions.

I've done Stronglifts a few times and I've hit plateaus over and over and over again. When I started lifting seriously about 2 years ago I was still pretty weak and even now I'm only 180lbs at 6'. I have struggled to gain strength because it is very difficult for me to eat enough food to gain any weight. I eat a lot of ground beef, eggs, chicken breasts, salmon, mussels, tuna, walnuts, lots of dairy and lots of fats (I even eat all the grease when I cook bacon or ground beef, and use lots of mayo/butter with most meals), generally eat less than 100g of carbs a day (usually under 50g) while staying away from soda and anything with added sugar, and I try to eat spinach/kale/broccoli at least a few times a week as well.

I wouldn't say I eat super clean but I definitely am restricting my ability to gain weight by the way I eat. It's confusing to me that eating more carbs would result in muscle mass gain, but at this point it might be necessary if i'm going to gain weight period, because a high fat diet is too satiating to be able to eat enough to actually gain weight. The problem is that I really hate most carbs (such as rice or noodles), and they make me feel like shit.

Post: #5

I'm on Madcow right now and loving it. I started with StrongLifts but couldn't make any more progress after I hit intermediate levels. Ask me anything.

How many calories are you trying to eat on lifting days? I remember when I used to struggle to eat 2,000 calories a day. I actually threw up one night from all the food. Lol.

Now I'm on intermittent fasting and easily jamming 2,500 calories into 8 hours of eating: oatmeal w/milk + protein powder before lifting, protein shake after lifting, and a pound of ground beef with two low-cal hamburger buns for dinner and 2d dinner.

I believe in avoiding refined carbs, but I also think low carb/keto retards my muscle development. I'll do a low carb/no carb day sometimes on a recovery day if I'm feeling a little sore.

Post: #6

(09-23-2017 03:34 PM)Batman_ Wrote:  T

(09-23-2017 02:11 PM)Vaun Wrote:  Its obviously a very popular intermediate/advanced program with the Starting Strength crowd.

I am a big proponent of Starting Strength, and currently doing a novice program now, mixed in with some shorter met cons and running/cardio workouts on off days. My warm up includes chins, GHD raises, push ups, etc. My cardio days are mostly met con type stuff; jump roping, versa climber, outdoor sports. I am doing Starting Strength 3x per week, squat, press, DL, for 3x5. I expect to be back to a 900lb. total when I am done with it in 10 weeks. Roughly 5 days per week, with the two non-lift cardio days.

For food; make sure you supplement with protein powder. Casein at night is my go to, and whey during the day. Only go the Filet O Fish route if you dont care about the extra fat that comes with it. I did this... its very hard to take off if you are over 30. You will gain muscle though, the more you eat, of all macros, not just protein. Im inclined to believe, from past personal experience, that when you over feed all macros protein/carbs/fat, as opposed to just protein, you will gain more muscle and get stronger faster, than just relying on protein and trying to keep your diet really clean. Again, just personal experience. If you dont care about the excess fat to get big and strong, get your Big Mac and White Castle on. Your nutrition could be a huge factor in your plateau. Post your diet here. Often times people dont eat enough.

If you've done the program and truly hit a plateau as an intermediate(check your lift numbers that you are an actual intermediate based on how much you lift), I would try Madcow, the Texas Method, or any of the Bill Starr programs that supplement Starting Strength. I would also post to the Starting Strength forum with your questions.

I've done Stronglifts a few times and I've hit plateaus over and over and over again. When I started lifting seriously about 2 years ago I was still pretty weak and even now I'm only 180lbs at 6'. I have struggled to gain strength because it is very difficult for me to eat enough food to gain any weight. I eat a lot of ground beef, eggs, chicken breasts, salmon, mussels, tuna, walnuts, lots of dairy and lots of fats (I even eat all the grease when I cook bacon or ground beef, and use lots of mayo/butter with most meals), generally eat less than 100g of carbs a day (usually under 50g) while staying away from soda and anything with added sugar, and I try to eat spinach/kale/broccoli at least a few times a week as well.

I wouldn't say I eat super clean but I definitely am restricting my ability to gain weight by the way I eat. It's confusing to me that eating more carbs would result in muscle mass gain, but at this point it might be necessary if i'm going to gain weight period, because a high fat diet is too satiating to be able to eat enough to actually gain weight. The problem is that I really hate most carbs (such as rice or noodles), and they make me feel like shit.

The higher carbs theory, as told by most coaches in powerlifting(Rippetoe, Louie Simmons, etc), is that your body requires many different types of fuel to grow. Glycogen(energy) from carbs, protein and fat for muscle growth. You use up your glycogen when you lift, and you use up your protein when you recover. Without refueling properly, you will get stuck.

The reason you see so much on the internet written about "lifting low carb", is frankly because most people are fat, and dont want to be fat anymore. So most people are trying to lose weight, that is their main/only goal. Even most lifters on the internet.

Your goal is a lot different than that. If your goal is to increase your lifts, you have to eat.

You could be under-eating based on your numbers, and at your height and weight, I would guess you look really lean. This is where your goals come into play. Whats your number one goal? Get bigger and stronger? Just get slightly stronger? Do you like your body size, or want to grow it with muscle? This is where you have to answer that first before you decide. But most people would probably kill for your leanness now, and frankly most men want that look.

I would start with making sure you are getting enough protein. You should try to get at least 200grams of protein per day. Start with two scoops of Casein at night before bed. Maybe throw in a few scoops of whey during the day.

Since you are good about tracking your food, during this program I think you should try upping your carbs at least to your bodyweight per day(180gr/day), or 150 if you want to try baby steps. Supplementation is the easiest way to do this, if you dont want to pig out. I like the powder After Burner, for post workout, which combines carbs, protein, bcaa, amino's, etc, in one drink. It will probably bump your carbs up to these levels.

100grams of Protein a day for a guy your size is really fat loss levels. And when you lose fat, you also lose muscle, there is no way of getting around that, despite any product/youtube video. Try upping your carbs and supplementing.

Post: #7

You don't need carbs but it's hard to hit your caloric needs on protein and fat alone. Hence why it works so well for weight loss.

A higher carb intake means that you'll be able to use the carbs for energy rather than the protein. You'll be able to use the protein for muscle protein synthesis rather than the creation of glycogen via gluconeogenesis. The body will prioritize maintaining homeostasis before it allows you to grow.

Post: #8

(09-23-2017 05:30 PM)Steelex Wrote:  You don't need carbs but it's hard to hit your caloric needs on protein and fat alone. Hence why it works so well for weight loss.

A higher carb intake means that you'll be able to use the carbs for energy rather than the protein. You'll be able to use the protein for muscle protein synthesis rather than the creation of glycogen via gluconeogenesis. The body will prioritize maintaining homeostasis before it allows you to grow.

Why dont you think he needs carbs??? To maintain a six pack?

Post: #9

He doesn't need them, but if he's trying to grow its a lot easier with carbs. You can do a keto bulk too it's just harder.

I'd rather be thick with a two pack then thin with a six.

Post: #10

(09-23-2017 04:20 PM)not_dead_yet Wrote:  I'm on Madcow right now and loving it. I started with StrongLifts but couldn't make any more progress after I hit intermediate levels. Ask me anything.

How many calories are you trying to eat on lifting days? I remember when I used to struggle to eat 2,000 calories a day. I actually threw up one night from all the food. Lol.

Now I'm on intermittent fasting and easily jamming 2,500 calories into 8 hours of eating: oatmeal w/milk + protein powder before lifting, protein shake after lifting, and a pound of ground beef with two low-cal hamburger buns for dinner and 2d dinner.

I believe in avoiding refined carbs, but I also think low carb/keto retards my muscle development. I'll do a low carb/no carb day sometimes on a recovery day if I'm feeling a little sore.

How much did your lifts improve from Madcow as opposed to SL?

And I don't count calories but I try to eat as much as I possibly can on lifting days, usually to the point of nausea. I have been interested in intermittent fasting and keto diets for a long time but it definitely is not optimal for gaining strength if you are struggling to put on weight.

(09-23-2017 04:51 PM)Vaun Wrote:  Your goal is a lot different than that. If your goal is to increase your lifts, you have to eat.

You could be under-eating based on your numbers, and at your height and weight, I would guess you look really lean. This is where your goals come into play. Whats your number one goal? Get bigger and stronger? Just get slightly stronger? Do you like your body size, or want to grow it with muscle? This is where you have to answer that first before you decide. But most people would probably kill for your leanness now, and frankly most men want that look.

My BF% is probably like 18%, so I'm not super lean or anything. I definitely want to prioritize getting stronger first and then lose the fat once I meet strength goals.

Quote:I would start with making sure you are getting enough protein. You should try to get at least 200grams of protein per day. Start with two scoops of Casein at night before bed. Maybe throw in a few scoops of whey during the day.

Since you are good about tracking your food, during this program I think you should try upping your carbs at least to your bodyweight per day(180gr/day), or 150 if you want to try baby steps. Supplementation is the easiest way to do this, if you dont want to pig out. I like the powder After Burner, for post workout, which combines carbs, protein, bcaa, amino's, etc, in one drink. It will probably bump your carbs up to these levels.

100grams of Protein a day for a guy your size is really fat loss levels. And when you lose fat, you also lose muscle, there is no way of getting around that, despite any product/youtube video. Try upping your carbs and supplementing.

I'll definitely be upping my carb intake because trying to rely on fat for fuel is damn hard. I try to eat some fruit as a preworkout but that's not always enough. Carbs high in soluble fiber like nuts or oats seem to be the best fuel. the problem is that eating a lot of carbs makes it harder to eat enough protein so maybe I'll have to supplement one or the other. Maybe both but idk it seems expensive.

And you can lose fat while preserving muscle. It requires a very strict diet though. Check this article out if you're interested, it explains this well and is well cited.
https://ketogenic.com/performance/will-l...enic-diet/

Post: #11

(09-23-2017 06:47 PM)Steelex Wrote:  He doesn't need them, but if he's trying to grow its a lot easier with carbs. You can do a keto bulk too it's just harder.

I'd rather be thick with a two pack then thin with a six.

Bulking on a keto diet is basically impossible. I don't know how anyone does it. And yeah I agree. It's a really great feeling to actually be functionally strong as opposed to just trying to look good.

Post: #12

(09-23-2017 07:01 PM)Batman_ Wrote:  

(09-23-2017 06:47 PM)Steelex Wrote:  He doesn't need them, but if he's trying to grow its a lot easier with carbs. You can do a keto bulk too it's just harder.

I'd rather be thick with a two pack then thin with a six.

Bulking on a keto diet is basically impossible. I don't know how anyone does it. And yeah I agree. It's a really great feeling to actually be functionally strong as opposed to just trying to look good.

To me the "keto bulk" theory is right up there with the flat earth theory. Just like anytime you see vocal paleo adherents that usually have high body fat.

If you are really focusing on staying thin/lean during a strength phase I would read Lyle McDonald, but it will take nerves of steel and a monk-like lifestyle to support that. Some men can do this, most likely married guys who dont go out. Why kill your social life and strip away your enjoyment in life?

Strength Standards chart.

OP - are you sure you're an Intermediate? Based on your body comp, I would say check this out, and rate yourself with the strength standards chart above. If you dont think you are ready for Intermediate level lifts, maybe go back to your first routine, with an improved diet. My suggestion would be to try Starting Strength, with better nutrition for lifting to gain muscle. Good luck and keep posting.

Post: #13

(09-23-2017 06:47 PM)Steelex Wrote:  He doesn't need them, but if he's trying to grow its a lot easier with carbs. You can do a keto bulk too it's just harder.

I'd rather be thick with a two pack then thin with a six.

you're a walking contradiction, abman.

Post: #14

I definitely preferred a 5x5 to Starting Strength. I tried Madcow for some months and hit new PRs.

I would recommend 5x5 even for noobs.

Post: #15

(09-23-2017 07:22 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

(09-23-2017 07:01 PM)Batman_ Wrote:  

(09-23-2017 06:47 PM)Steelex Wrote:  He doesn't need them, but if he's trying to grow its a lot easier with carbs. You can do a keto bulk too it's just harder.

I'd rather be thick with a two pack then thin with a six.

Bulking on a keto diet is basically impossible. I don't know how anyone does it. And yeah I agree. It's a really great feeling to actually be functionally strong as opposed to just trying to look good.

To me the "keto bulk" theory is right up there with the flat earth theory. Just like anytime you see vocal paleo adherents that usually have high body fat.

If you are really focusing on staying thin/lean during a strength phase I would read Lyle McDonald, but it will take nerves of steel and a monk-like lifestyle to support that. Some men can do this, most likely married guys who dont go out. Why kill your social life and strip away your enjoyment in life?

Strength Standards chart.

OP - are you sure you're an Intermediate? Based on your body comp, I would say check this out, and rate yourself with the strength standards chart above. If you dont think you are ready for Intermediate level lifts, maybe go back to your first routine, with an improved diet. My suggestion would be to try Starting Strength, with better nutrition for lifting to gain muscle. Good luck and keep posting.

According to that chart I'm around intermediate in every lift except OHP. I also have been lifting seriously for 2 years. I think I was at a bit of a disadvantage starting out though, I was just over 140 lbs and I couldn't even 5rep 135 lbs on my bench or squat. So the progress i've made definitely makes a difference here considering that I started out very weak. I've reached many, many plateaus and so I don't think any newbie program will help much at this point.

Post: #16

(09-23-2017 07:28 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

(09-23-2017 06:47 PM)Steelex Wrote:  He doesn't need them, but if he's trying to grow its a lot easier with carbs. You can do a keto bulk too it's just harder.

I'd rather be thick with a two pack then thin with a six.

you're a walking contradiction, abman.

Lol, what kind of shit is that?

I don't think I've ever really talked about having having abs here. They're not a big deal to me.

Where is the contradiction? I'll wait.

Post: #17

(09-23-2017 06:53 PM)Batman_ Wrote:  

(09-23-2017 04:20 PM)not_dead_yet Wrote:  I'm on Madcow right now and loving it. I started with StrongLifts but couldn't make any more progress after I hit intermediate levels. Ask me anything.

How much did your lifts improve from Madcow as opposed to SL?

I'm probably older than you, and a hard gainer, and on TRT, so take all this with a grain of salt. I followed StrongLifts and I had switched down from 5x5, to 3x5, and then down to 1x5. I was stalled and overtraining even at those sets and leaving each session exhausted.

I switched to MadCow and I knocked weight off my deadlift and barbell rows to bring them in line with my other lifts. It took me about two and a half months*** to start making new personal bests. More to the point, I leave the gym feeling good and not like I'm going to keel over.

At my current progress, I'm hoping to hit my targets in a month or two before I switch to maintenance mode.

***I took a few weeks vacation and didn't eat enough, so I lost muscle mass and had to deload. QQ. It's my understanding if you do it right, it should only take a month.

(09-23-2017 06:53 PM)Batman_ Wrote:  And I don't count calories but I try to eat as much as I possibly can on lifting days, usually to the point of nausea. I have been interested in intermittent fasting and keto diets for a long time but it definitely is not optimal for gaining strength if you are struggling to put on weight.

Ok, but what are you eating? I'd be eating fatty meats and carbs if I were you. I've really grown to love hamburger patties with Montreal steak seasoning on them.

Post: #18

I don't think that Steelex said anything wrong, Vaun. He's posted pics of what he looks like after adding 50+ pounds to lean mass to his body.

Post: #19

(09-24-2017 08:23 PM)not_dead_yet Wrote:  I'm probably older than you, and a hard gainer, and on TRT, so take all this with a grain of salt. I followed StrongLifts and I had switched down from 5x5, to 3x5, and then down to 1x5. I was stalled and overtraining even at those sets and leaving each session exhausted.

I switched to MadCow and I knocked weight off my deadlift and barbell rows to bring them in line with my other lifts. It took me about two and a half months*** to start making new personal bests. More to the point, I leave the gym feeling good and not like I'm going to keel over.

That sounds like my situation, I have often felt very bitter, exhausted, and sick after leaving the gym. I think it was a combination of doing too heavy weights too often and too much volume.

Quote:Ok, but what are you eating? I'd be eating fatty meats and carbs if I were you. I've really grown to love hamburger patties with Montreal steak seasoning on them.

One of the most common things I eat is homemade burritos. I'll cook up 3 lbs of 73% lean ground beef, a dozen eggs, 2 cans of red beans, and use that to make burritos with a shitload of cheese. I would normally make them with a high fiber/low carb tortilla (like 5g net carbs) but now I've replaced that with high carb tortillas since they're less filling. Maybe I'll throw in some avocado or something for more calories. Though it's already really fucking fatty as I don't drain the grease after I cook the meat.

Post: #20

So I'm really enjoying the program so far, I haven't hit any new PR's yet since I started out light to get a sense of the routine, however I've compensated by doing rapid fire sets that take less than 10 minutes to do them all. Still haven't gained a single pound though which is discouraging because I know it will impede progress once I get to heavier weights.

I think the issue has less to do with how calorie dense the foods are and more to do with how often I eat/how big the meals are. I almost always end up eating a light breakfast with a big lunch and dinner, but that's just not enough. I need to find out how I can eat several moderately sized meals throughout the day, but it seems wildly impractical. I have tried snacking on things like walnuts but it almost always feels like a chore.

Post: #21

(10-16-2017 07:39 PM)Batman_ Wrote:  So I'm really enjoying the program so far, I haven't hit any new PR's yet since I started out light to get a sense of the routine, however I've compensated by doing rapid fire sets that take less than 10 minutes to do them all. Still haven't gained a single pound though which is discouraging because I know it will impede progress once I get to heavier weights.

I think the issue has less to do with how calorie dense the foods are and more to do with how often I eat/how big the meals are. I almost always end up eating a light breakfast with a big lunch and dinner, but that's just not enough. I need to find out how I can eat several moderately sized meals throughout the day, but it seems wildly impractical. I have tried snacking on things like walnuts but it almost always feels like a chore.

I'm not sure the lack of weight gain is a problem here. I've been within +/- 5 lbs of my target weight for most of my three-ish years lifting. I feel like I add a pound or two when I'm plateauing, but it seems to come off later.

Go to symmetricstrength.com and plug your numbers in. You should be able to get stronger without adding weight, although admittedly it may be slower.

Post: #22

Ive put on 5 kilos of muscle in 6 months doing 5x5 as in the stronglifts page. I dont think it need any tweaking.

Post: #23

Just an update. At the start of this program in October, I weighed 180 lbs - my 5RM's were as follows:

Bench - 180
Squat - 245
DL - 275
OHP - 105
Row- 170

Now I'm about 210lbs, here are my new 5RM's

Bench - 215
Squat - 285
Deadlift - 315
OHP - 125
Row - 205

Seems like I've made fairly linear progress, which is good. Admittedly my BF% has risen noticeably, probably over 20%, which definitely doesn't look good, but I take 5-10g of creatine a day so a lot of it is probably water weight.

I been hitting new PR's almost every week and so I intend to keep going until I begin to stall out. By the end of it I may end up weighing as much as 225 lbs, but if I hit my targets I think it will be worth it. Despite all the weight gain I feel stronger and have far more stamina than ever, even my cardio has improved.

After this I plan to do IM fasting with a low-carb diet...unsure of what sort of workout routine I'm going to do, though. I'm not at all worried about losing the excess fat, though I do worry about losing some of the strength I've made.

Post: #24

(02-24-2018 11:39 AM)Batman_ Wrote:  Just an update. At the start of this program in October, I weighed 180 lbs - my 5RM's were as follows:

Bench - 180
Squat - 245
DL - 275
OHP - 105
Row- 170

Now I'm about 210lbs, here are my new 5RM's

Bench - 215
Squat - 285
Deadlift - 315
OHP - 125
Row - 205

Seems like I've made fairly linear progress, which is good. Admittedly my BF% has risen noticeably, probably over 20%, which definitely doesn't look good, but I take 5-10g of creatine a day so a lot of it is probably water weight.

I been hitting new PR's almost every week and so I intend to keep going until I begin to stall out. By the end of it I may end up weighing as much as 225 lbs, but if I hit my targets I think it will be worth it. Despite all the weight gain I feel stronger and have far more stamina than ever, even my cardio has improved.

After this I plan to do IM fasting with a low-carb diet...unsure of what sort of workout routine I'm going to do, though. I'm not at all worried about losing the excess fat, though I do worry about losing some of the strength I've made.

Very good linear progress overall but your OHP stands out as lagging even from the beginning. Are you doing them when you are fresh or after another pressing movement?

30 lbs is a lot over the course of 4 months, great work if you kept fat gains under control. I expect you've had the added expense of a new wardrobe?

Post: #25

Good work, I always found OHP/strict press gains tough too.