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RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)getdownonit Wrote: (01-07-2019 04:25 PM)DamienCasanova Wrote: What happened to the Lizard Of Oz's thread "All Men Should Eventually Marry & Have Kids"
/thread-39579.html
It won't load, did it get deleted or moved?
That must be one of the threads that got 'lost in the ether' when Roosh decided to delete the Family subforum. That was a great thread - and a very important subforum. Such a shame, so much knowledge senselessly lost.
It's probably on the internet archive somewhere
Got it.
The thread in its entirety is mandatory reading, IMO, but in the event the archived site ends up lost to time, I'll repost Lizard's original and one of my favorite replies from Scorp:
The Lizard of Oz Wrote:Something that has struck me lately is that there has been so much (accurate and important) information disseminated in the manosphere about the perils of marriage, particularly in the West -- the extremely unfavorable divorce laws and the general misandrist atmosphere that permeates the legal system; the poor character and less than desirable wifely and motherly qualities of all too many females here and all over the world; and so on -- that guys who take a high enough dose of the red pill are in danger of losing sight of a basic truth about human and male nature, which has not changed in the least:
Very few men are made out to be lifelong bachelors. The great majority of men will need to marry and have kids to live a happy and satisfying life. And all the well-advertised risks notwithstanding, that is what the great majority of men should and will do -- sooner or later.
In saying this, I am not denying the truth of what is by now common knowledge in the manosphere -- as well it should be. Yes, it is true that divorce laws and procedures in the US and other western countries are badly skewed against men, and there is no telling if and when that will change. And it is true, as some posters here can attest from personal experience, that few things are more nightmarish and life-destroying than investing years of your life in a worthless bitch who then cheats on you, puts you through divorce hell, and strips you of half your assets, while also ruining the lives of your children. It is the sort of thing that can drive an otherwise sane and peaceful man to violence, and if anything, I'm surprised that it does not do so more often.
It is also true that, while women's basic nature has not changed, the societal trends have been extremely unfavorable to their character and seem designed to bring out the worst of their selfishness, shallowness, attention whoring, and outright whorishness. Even if the worst case scenario of divorce hell is avoided, it is not pleasant for a man to wake up one day and realize that instead of marrying a girl who will share his life, ease his burden and be a good mother to his children, he has essentially married a phone. It can be a cold feeling for a man to recognize that his would-be mate is little more than a walking shell attached to a device that dominates her life to an extent that the man himself could never dream of.
Nevertheless, and despite all these unfortunate truths, we cannot lose sight of a truth that is even more basic. And this is that only a small minority of men are made out to be lifelong bachelors. They do exist -- but they are a tiny sliver of the population, the straightforwardly heterosexual men who never marry and have children and can lead a perfectly satisfying life without the least desire to permanently attach themselves to a mate. I believe that this is a basic fact about male nature that transcends culture -- indeed, I would bet that research would show that the fraction of heterosexual men who are lifelong bachelors as a matter of choice is surprisingly stable across vastly different cultures, eras, and societies -- and surprisingly small, perhaps 5-10% or so of men at the utmost.
Your blue pill friends and relatives will tell you with a serious face that you should marry because otherwise you will "die alone" but that is not the real issue. Far more serious than the imagined problem of "dying alone" is the very real fact that, after a certain age -- usually as their thirties wear on -- most men deal increasingly poorly with living alone. They feel a need, acknowledged or not, for a woman to share their life with, give them children, and to be a warm and intimate presence to come back home to; and absent this they grow increasingly forlorn, aimless, restless, and rudderless.
It can be a piteous sight to see such a man -- a man at large, a man without a woman -- in his true state. I will never forget seeing a guy like that in my neighborhood, a Russian dude as it happens. He was a tall and well-built man and had the kind of flat open face that they sometimes do. The main thing I remember him doing is walking around -- with a look on his face that seemed determined -- but somehow, blankly and purposelessly determined. This is what men without women do: they range, they are always on the move and never seem to arrive at their destination; they are like a lost rudderless ship, unmoored and at sea.
I have rarely seen it so literally expressed as with Sergei, but it is something I've noticed in one way or another in every man when the imperative to settle down with a woman has seized him. They are always about some vague business, determined and purposeless at once, cognizant to the bottom of their feet only of the need to be anchored and tethered to the animal warmth, simplicity, and receptivity of a female mate. And it is not really a matter of a man's success in life -- I've seen the same restless blankness on the face of "winners" as on "losers"; all men show the same lost and rudderless face when they neglect to do what nature intended.
Many (perhaps most) men will start feeling this tug already in their late twenties; and virtually all -- except the small minority meant to be lifelong bachelors -- will feel it very fully by their mid thirties. While it is important that men be clear-eyed about the (quite serious) risks involved in marriage, it is just as important that men be honest with themselves and not deny their real needs and their nature. Despite the risk, most men will want to take the plunge, sooner or later; they should recognize and accept this basic fact, and act accordingly when the time comes. And after all, for all the cases of divorce hell and lesser calamities, there are many -- perhaps most -- marriages even in the West, which do not make the news and are not fodder for blog posts, but are acceptable and sometimes even happy. In the end, after the most suitable girl has been found and all due precautions have been taken, it is better to run the risk of failure than to accept a life that, for most men, is a guarantee of misery and dissatisfaction.
As far as the practical realities of marriage go, I don't have much to add to what has already been said in many manosphere posts, but here are a few thoughts and tips that reflect my personal take on it:
1. Most importantly, find a girl who is healthy and relatively young -- someone in her twenties. All issues of character, as important as they are, are secondary to the biological realities; you want someone who is healthy, fertile, undrugged, and will make a physically fit mother to your children. These fundamentals matter above all.
2. Realize that while women from other parts of the world, like Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe, often act more feminine and submissive, they are also often more cunning and better actresses than Western women. American women are bitches but as they've become less feminine, they are also more obvious about being bitches and easier to read. Women from other parts of the world are more old fashioned, but that also means more skilled in the traditional feminine strategies of artifice and dissimulation. In the end, I believe that with some effort, suitable girls can be found in various parts of the world, both in the West and elsewhere; but if you go for a girl from a more old fashioned culture, please keep this disclaimer in mind as much as possible.
3. In my opinion, marriage does not have to mean that you only fuck one piece of pussy for the rest of your life. A strongly sexed man needs sexual variety, and a woman worth her salt will understand it and look the other way as long as the pussy you fuck on the side is not serious -- basically, whores, maids and secretaries, one night stands when traveling, and so on. It is "serious" affairs with women of equal status that must be avoided like the plague and that can really break a marriage apart. "Affairs" are sleazy and disgusting; the occasional plowing of a piece of strange pussy is good and healthy and a woman will understand it and even secretly respect you for it if you don't shove it in her face. Of course the wife herself must be completely physically faithful and never so much as look at another man.
Regardless, the message I want to convey with this post is that the need and desire to eventually marry and have kids is a fundamental part of male and human nature; it has not changed just because certain things about society have. We should not lose sight of this basic fact, and when the time comes, almost all men should and will take their chances, and try to make the best of it.
scorpion Wrote:Great post, Lizard, though I'm sure many here will disagree.
It's very easy for manosphere guys to fall into the trap of decrying marriage. And this is understandable. From a strictly utilitarian and materialistic perspective, marriage can seem like a lousy deal for men, especially in today's West. What's the incentive when a woman can divorce you at will without cause, take half your net worth, your house, your children and extract payments from you for years to come? And to take this risk to gain what, exactly? Access to one vagina for the rest of your life, and an honest name for your children? Is that all? Indeed, looking at it from this perspective, marriage seems not only undesirable, but almost an insane gamble.
And the truth is that yes, marriage is a gamble, especially today. But we are men. Playing with risk is what we do, and without risk there is no reward. And marriage ultimately carries with it the highest reward which a man can achieve in life: becoming the patriarch of his own family. Creating, safeguarding and guiding your children. Imparting decades' worth of hard earned experience and wisdom onto your son, to make him a better man than you, or onto your daughter, to make her the woman men would kill and die for.
Ultimately, this is the only thing that matters in life. Everything else will be washed away. All the pleasures, all the adventures, all the accomplishments, all the money - it will all dissipate into nothingness like a cloud of smoke. And even before those things disappear in death, you will inevitably live to see them lose their luster. Hedonism and the pleasures of the flesh are fleeting. Those who are privileged enough (in their minds) to drink deeply from that well soon find to their horror that what first tasted like the sweetest and most intoxicating wine quickly turns to flavorless water, and before long becomes bitter vinegar in their mouths. A life spent in the ceaseless pursuit of pleasure is usually short, and invariably sad.
Fatherhood is the natural progression from and culmination of manhood. The reason we become men is to become fathers. The only reason any of us are here today is because countless generations of men before us took up the task of providing for, protecting and teaching their own sons and daughters. For us today to shrug off fatherhood as being an outdated burden not worth the time or effort is to spit in the face of every man who came before us, every man in our family trees who threw a spear, who pushed a plow, who worked a 16 hour day in some dirty mine or factory. For us to say that fatherhood is too risky, or that it would subtract from the pleasures we could otherwise enjoy in life is, quite simply, cowardice.
Children. That is the sole reason to get married. You don't get married to make your wife happy. You don't get married just because you've been dating a girl for five years and it seems like it's time. You don't get married because all your friends are and you don't want to be the odd one out. You get married because you found a woman who you think would be a good mother, and you're ready to be a father.
The man who does not become a father in his life is incomplete. He has not reached the peak of masculinity, he has not fulfilled his potential as a man. He has not only left something on the table, he's left the most important thing of all. It goes too far to call such a man a failure (Newton, Tesla, Kant and many others could hardly be called such), but he is to be pitied for having missed out on THE major experience, and essentially the overriding purpose, of life itself.
The man who deliberately avoids fatherhood in favor of focusing on his own pleasures and desires is more contemptible than pitiable. He lives only for himself, he spits on both the past and the future. Whether looking at him from an atheistic evolutionary or a spiritual/religious perspective, his life is a total waste. He will be a dead end who is quickly forgotten, most of his life having been spent in transactional encounters with fellow hedonists desperately trying (and failing) to fill the ever-growing void in their souls.
So yes, marriage is a risk. But guess what? I'll tell you a little secret about life. Spoiler alert: you lose everything in the end no matter what. You can't take it with you. So refusing to enter into marriage and become a father simply out of the fear that your wife will take you to the cleaners is short sighted. It would be like refusing to drive anywhere because you're afraid of getting in a wreck, and instead sitting at home in your room for the rest of your life. Sure, you're safe - but you're also missing out.
Now, this is not to say that men should enter marriage flippantly or without thought. The most important decision a man will make in his life is choosing the woman he marries. That's true now more than ever. It's absolutely imperative that men choose wisely when making this decision, and choosing wisely means thinking with your head, heart and soul rather than your dick. Just because a woman is sexy doesn't mean she'll be a good wife and mother. When selecting a wife, think long term. Character comes first. Be willing to marry down to a girl less attractive than you could otherwise get. Remember that you aren't getting married to lock down some smoking hot 9. You're getting married primarily to have children and to provide a stable environment for them to thrive in. Use your higher SMV and game knowledge to ensure that your wife remains compliant, submissive and totally in love with you.
Ultimately I believe that most men come to this realization by at some time between the ages of 25 and 35, whether they can articulate it or not. Most men can feel the desire to be a father stirring deep in their souls by that point, if for no other reason than that they're descended from a long, unbroken chain of men who were also fathers. It is natural. It is the fundamental reason we're here. Let us not shy away from the responsibility of fatherhood. To do so is to betray everything that came before, and everything that will come after. Marriage and fatherhood are essential for any man who wants to lay on his deathbed and know that regardless of whatever other successes or failures he had in his life, he at least accomplished the most important thing: he passed the torch.
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RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree? 
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