Post: #26

(02-26-2012 03:19 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 03:03 PM)Roosh Wrote:  America sure got whiter than I remembered it!

I agree with what Basil said. The elites love immigration because it keeps wages low.

In A People's History Of The United States, Zinn shows how the elites let various groups fight each other to keep them distracted from the raping of wealth that goes from the poor to the rich.

http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-Un...0060838655

Read the negativ reviews for that book. All books get negative reviews, but Zinn's book as a HUGE number of negative reviews. Given that people often like to read what they already agree with, that's telling.

I went to an insanely liberal high school where in IB History, Zinn's book was our actual textbook LOL. Talk about indoctrination. Our teacher was this extreme socialist guy from Los Angeles. I still enjoyed it, but man, I realize how left field that education was.

That being said, it's still better than the alternative view of the US behaving like "the last samurai" in every historical situation. Balance would be the ideal.

Post: #27

(02-26-2012 03:24 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 02:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 02:48 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote:This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

Right.

But the "unskilled" immigrants do a lot of the "unskilled" work. And keep in mind, American's are such cheapskates that they are the ones paying them.

American's create the "demand" for "unskilled" immigrants.

Also, the amount of "unskilled" immigrants that have done positive things for America is countless.

I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

I wasn't bashing Cubans as a whole, just saying Cuban mental patients specifically are probably a bad idea. Maybe we can make an exception for the cocaine huffing gun-toting ones on occasion to prop up Hollywood though.

I agree that Americans created that demand, once the laws were changed to enable it.

But there are Americans lining up to take unskilled jobs. Employers are fond of saying that they can't find anyone. To the extent that it's true, it's because they aren't willing to raise wages high enough. It's like me complaining I can't find a personal umbrella valet (because I'm only offering a $1 an hour). And sometimes it isn't true -employers will just simply lie via groups like the Chamber of Commerce, so that immigration brings wages down.

As for the cost of goods soaring without these immigrants - I'm not so sure. The labor cost of the lots of the stuff that you buy is actually fairly low, thanks to highly mechanized industries. Even for retail - I did a stint in retail, in a liquor store, and I calculated that our labor costs were about 10% of revenue. So increasing prices by 5% would be enough to increase compensation by 50%, if demand stayed the same. Demand would probably decline a little, but other stores would be facing the same pressures. There's also a lot of costs of unskilled immigration that you don't see - such as education spending, at $10k per kid per year.

Quote:If (the consumer) spends $1 on a pint of strawberries, the farmer's getting 18 cents. He gives about one-third of that to farmworkers, so they make 6 cents." So even if the labor cost were to double, that would still only be a 6 cent increase per pint.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...=printable

Sounds like the real crime in this case is how less than 20% of the revenue is going to the farmer and his workers. I wonder where the other 82% goes.

Yeah. I know you're not bashing Cubans. I agree with what you're saying.

That Mariel Boatlift was Castro's way of saying F U to the US. He intentionally released all those social misfits onto the shores of Florida.


Immigration is definitely a complex and nuanced issue. Our country would be much better off if the public dialogue was as civil and open-minded as the one being discussed on this fourm.

Post: #28

(02-26-2012 02:44 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  There's actually an interesting and controversial new book about these differences within the US white population over the last 50 years called "Coming Apart" by Charles Murray. He's a libertarian who co-authored that controversial book called "The Bell Curve." Anyway, his latest book as been getting a lot of press coverage and he also appeared on Charlie Rose to discuss it.

This book smells like a big steaming load of Ayn Rand.

Post: #29

(02-26-2012 02:34 PM)basilransom Wrote:  This is why the immigration debate is so shitty. The proponents of immigration, who are the dominant force, lump all immigration together, because if you were to separate immigration into different groups, eg by skill level, it would be apparent that some groups don't benefit America, while others grace us with world's best talent.

+1

Exactly. That's what pisses me off about people that conflate the immigration debate. And when they lump illegal immigration and legal immigration together I can feel my blood boil. There's a helluva lotta difference between some engineer from Korea coming here and an illegal alien from MS-13 coming here.

Post: #30

(02-26-2012 02:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/...immig.html

Post: #31

I don't think shit's going to hit the fan because shit has always appeareared like it's going to "hit the fan" over social issues in America and it never has. Elites like to make things look scarier than they really are. The truth is, what's really going to happen is that advertisements like the one shown ITT are going to keep some people scared, hopeless and defeated enough to keep themselves out of the game, thereby minimizing the amount of competition for wealth elites have to face. And that's all ads like the one above are really intended to do, at the end of the day.

Post: #32

(02-26-2012 05:20 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 02:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/...immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

Post: #33

(02-26-2012 06:32 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 05:20 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 02:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/...immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

Well, I clean up after myself, wash my own car and dishes and if I lived in a house I'd mow my own lawn.

Remember, the supposed savings people are getting by hiring illegals on the cheap is offset when they go to the county hospital when they get sick or injured or have kids which will cost the school district $10k a year and entitles the family to section 8 subsidized by tax payers. And that's assuming the kid doesn't grow up to be a gangbanger. In L.A. MS-13 and 18th street gangs(the two most notorious) are almost entirely comprised of illegal aliens.

Post: #34

(02-26-2012 06:42 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 06:32 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 05:20 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 02:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/...immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

Well, I clean up after myself, wash my own car and dishes and if I lived in a house I'd mow my own lawn.

Remember, the supposed savings people are getting by hiring illegals on the cheap is offset when they go to the county hospital when they get sick or injured or have kids which will cost the school district $10k a year and entitles the family to section 8 subsidized by tax payers. And that's assuming the kid doesn't grow up to be a gangbanger. In L.A. MS-13 and 18th street gangs(the two most notorious) are almost entirely comprised of illegal aliens.

So I am guessing you answered "yes" to all those questions.

Your missing the point, its not about you.

It's about America.

I am not saying its good or bad, but it does make things cheaper.

Imagine if every biz in America had to hire College graduates to clean toilets. Think the cost of that burger you had would go up?

America creates the demand for illegals.

It is the same as blaming Mexico for our drug problems.

This is just the law of supply and demand.

Post: #35

(02-26-2012 06:54 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  So I am guessing you answered "yes" to all those questions.

Your missing the point, its not about you.

It's about America.

I am not saying its good or bad, but it does make things cheaper.

Imagine if every biz in America had to hire College graduates to clean toilets. Think the cost of that burger you had would go up?

America creates the demand for illegals.

It is the same as blaming Mexico for our drug problems.

This is just the law of supply and demand.

Exactly...

Most of the people complaining about losing jobs, illegal immigration are the biggest Walmart shoppers.

Post: #36

(02-26-2012 06:54 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  So I am guessing you answered "yes" to all those questions.

Your missing the point, its not about you.

It's about America.

I am not saying its good or bad, but it does make things cheaper.

Cheaper to who? Not to taxpayers. And if most goods we buy come from Asia anyway, the overall difference in savings is negligible at the consumer level.

Quote:Imagine if every biz in America had to hire College graduates to clean toilets. Think the cost of that burger you had would go up?

So how did Americans afford burgers and have clean toilets prior to the massive wave of illegal immigration in the 80s? We also somehow still managed to construct buildings and grow vegetables and process meat in slaughterhouses for hundreds of years before illegal immigrants were doing it. This belief that we have an inherent NEED to insource illegal labor is a myth. I've done dirty jobs out in the hot sun before. In college I was working as a landscaper. It sucked but it was flexible with my class schedule and paid, so I took it. I'd often be out there when it was over a 100 degrees. You'd be surprised how many Americans will work such jobs if they need the money.

Post: #37

(02-26-2012 06:54 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 06:42 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 06:32 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 05:20 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 02:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/...immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

Well, I clean up after myself, wash my own car and dishes and if I lived in a house I'd mow my own lawn.

Remember, the supposed savings people are getting by hiring illegals on the cheap is offset when they go to the county hospital when they get sick or injured or have kids which will cost the school district $10k a year and entitles the family to section 8 subsidized by tax payers. And that's assuming the kid doesn't grow up to be a gangbanger. In L.A. MS-13 and 18th street gangs(the two most notorious) are almost entirely comprised of illegal aliens.

So I am guessing you answered "yes" to all those questions.

Your missing the point, its not about you.

It's about America.

I am not saying its good or bad, but it does make things cheaper.

Imagine if every biz in America had to hire College graduates to clean toilets. Think the cost of that burger you had would go up?

America creates the demand for illegals.

It is the same as blaming Mexico for our drug problems.

This is just the law of supply and demand.

I see where you're coming from Speakeasy. Most of the benefits from illegal immigration are going to elites and their bottom line. There are benefits to immigration but the problem is we're not seeing the best of those benefits because the elites create the demand and horde most of the benefits.

Guys like Mitt Romney claim to be against illegal immigrants but even he had illegals tending to his home when he was Gov. of Massachusetts. Guys like him prefer to keep it that way.


Did you see Santorum's video where he called Obama a snob for wanting every kid in America to go to college? Quite funny coming from a guy with three degrees. This kind of pandering is ridiculous.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/25...01854.html

Post: #38

(02-26-2012 06:32 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 05:20 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 02:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/...immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

So in other words, illegal immigration is good for the 1%.

Post: #39

(02-26-2012 07:37 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 06:32 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 05:20 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 02:51 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I agree. If you think prices for goods and services are high now, it would be MUCH worse were it not for a class of people willing to work for wages under conditions most Americans would NEVER accept.

Most goods bought aren't made here anyway. When is the last time you actually bought something made with American hands? It's all imported from Asia.

Mexican labor may be heavy in construction and agriculture, but did the price of homes or vegetables fall when this happened? I didn't notice anything. The labor savings weren't passed onto consumers, they just made the businesses more profitable.

I hear that argument all the time, that illegal immigration is making things cheaper, but I see no actual evidence of it.


http://blog.al.com/businessnews/2011/11/...immig.html

Ever eat in a restaurant?

Or

Been to any business in America, that is actually clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house that is clean?

Or

Been to anyone's house getting a "little construction work" done?

Or

A condo building with the lawn cut? The hedges trimmed? The weeds pulled?

So in other words, illegal immigration is good for the 1%.

I think it's good for everyone. It encourages non-immigrants (in theory) to become more ambitious and more competitive. I'm sorry, but if you're complaining about jobs that "unskilled immigrants" are taking, then you should probably thrown in the towel and get a "born to lose" tat on your forehead.

Seriously....

You should see those jobs as something you don't want and step your game up and hustle for better opportunities.

Post: #40

Hencridible Wrote:You should see those jobs as something you don't want and step your game up and hustle for better opportunities.

Almost no one voluntarily takes low-level jobs. It's done out of necessity.


Make the poor fight each other to survive. Very entertaining, watching the peons fight.

Post: #41

"Guys like Mitt Romney claim to be against illegal immigrants but even he had illegals tending to his home when he was Gov. of Massachusetts. Guys like him prefer to keep it that way."

This is the crux of it right here. Countless appointees to higher federal posts have had to quietly step aside due to "nanny issues" or "not paying taxes on employees." Certain posts require a stringent federal background check, and they know it will come out that they're employing an illegal. Bernard Kerik (who was up for Homeland Security Chief), and Kimba Wood (Federal Judgeship under Clinton) are two that come to mind, and they're just the ones I can remember that made the press. I'm sure others quietly say no thanks before it becomes public that they're being considered. They're usually given the heads up, and are asked if there's anything embarassing that would come up in a background check.

Post: #42

Paul R. Ehrlich wrote The Population Bomb about the dangers of overpopulation, and predicted a future with mass starvation if we did not start to control our population size. It was a best seller in America. The Hunger Games is also about a world dying from overpopulation, where there are more people than there is food. Another best seller.

Americans are very concerned about overpopulation.

Post: #43

Roosh Wrote:A problem is that Americans don’t give a damn about Made In USA, and will happily purchase the Chinese product if it’s a nickel cheaper. Every American whining about there not being enough manufacturing jobs—while shopping in Walmart or Target—have to do some soul searching, because it’s that behavior which began the exodus of jobs to Chinese shores.

Post: #44

Immigration is just a huge scape goat, deflection, as people said to get folks fuming over a non-issue. To be blunt here the American Experiment (which it is) is 100% dependent on immigration.. you limit this and America does not exist. As people have noted it the plug will never be pulled! What a deal for capitalists to underpay overskilled workers, no way they will ever get rid of it.

Its funny because MININMUM WAGE laws hurt American more so then immigrants working for low wages (immigrants work for the same wage scale as you.. Illegals are different). If the price floor was removed from labour the bottom would plunge to meet the realities of low end jobs in America. Fruit farmers are not cheap skates its simply all they can pay for labour once other costs and GOVT SUBSIDIES are removed. If the Govt didn't prop them up then they wouldn't be in bussiness in the first place.

Immigration is a good deal for the elites and Govt as they get a greater return on their investments than putting that money towards an entitled American.

This should not be American peoples worries. Look at how your Govt is treating you domestically and how they are limiting your migration of wealthy and intellectual property out of the Country.

There is always a question of why don't nations close the flood gates especially when in decline. An example would be the UK after WWII and the decades of decline the natural thing would be to close the gates.. Keep more pie for your natural citizens, but of course in western nations this simply can not work. A nation needs perpetual growth to expand credit (debt), western nations do not have the capacity to grow populations and the credit (base) naturally so they are dependent on immigration to achieve this. Citizens are used as collateral and enable governments to expand credit, if you have a shrinking population you ability to do this is hindered.

This is why immigration is such a non-issue, it will never be closed or limited. America would fall of the rails financially if it did. Instead of Americans thinking of WHY this is.... I mean the fact the govt is dependent on debt creation to survive they argue about immigrants like they are some sickness infecting the country when they are immigrants them selves!

Post: #45

Most people aren't even aware of the current immigration levels and how much higher they are than historically was accepted.

Most voters in the US when asked don't want to eliminate immigration, but would like to see immigration levels reduced to a rate of 100,000 to 200,000 immigrants per year, not the current rate of 1 million+ per year.

http://www.npg.org/facts/us_imm_decade.htm


I'm not really comfortable with this 2nd chart source, but it's the only one I could find with projections for this century's immigration levels. They do agree with the wikipedia numbers that I found.
http://www.cairco.org/data/data_us.html

Post: #46

(02-26-2012 02:02 PM)basilransom Wrote:  You must live in a different United States. Immigrants use welfare more than natives do.

This article looks very suspicious to me. It says 43% of illegal immigrants use medicaid, but Wiki says it is only available to permanent residents and US citizens.

Post: #47

(02-26-2012 11:49 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  Most people aren't even aware of the current immigration levels and how much higher they are than historically was accepted.

Most voters in the US when asked don't want to eliminate immigration, but would like to see immigration levels reduced to a rate of 100,000 to 200,000 immigrants per year, not the current rate of 1 million+ per year.

http://www.npg.org/facts/us_imm_decade.htm


I'm not really comfortable with this 2nd chart source, but it's the only one I could find with projections for this century's immigration levels. They do agree with the wikipedia numbers that I found.
http://www.cairco.org/data/data_us.html

The data in those graphs is skewed because it displays immigration in absolute rather than relative terms. The U.S had a population of around 76 million in 1901 compared to 248 million in 1990, which means that proportionally legal immigration had a greater impact on American demographics 110 years ago then it has now.

Post: #48

(03-01-2012 11:56 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 02:02 PM)basilransom Wrote:  You must live in a different United States. Immigrants use welfare more than natives do.

This article looks very suspicious to me. It says 43% of illegal immigrants use medicaid, but Wiki says it is only available to permanent residents and US citizens.

States have their own laws which allow illegals to benefit.

Post: #49

(03-02-2012 06:36 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

(02-26-2012 11:49 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  Most people aren't even aware of the current immigration levels and how much higher they are than historically was accepted.

Most voters in the US when asked don't want to eliminate immigration, but would like to see immigration levels reduced to a rate of 100,000 to 200,000 immigrants per year, not the current rate of 1 million+ per year.

http://www.npg.org/facts/us_imm_decade.htm


I'm not really comfortable with this 2nd chart source, but it's the only one I could find with projections for this century's immigration levels. They do agree with the wikipedia numbers that I found.
http://www.cairco.org/data/data_us.html

The data in those graphs is skewed because it displays immigration in absolute rather than relative terms. The U.S had a population of around 76 million in 1901 compared to 248 million in 1990, which means that proportionally legal immigration had a greater impact on American demographics 110 years ago then it has now.

The people coming in 110 years ago were much more similar to the native population than they are now.

Post: #50

Quote:The people coming in 110 years ago were much more similar to the native population than they are now.

Well, perhaps not so close to the native indians. But the citizenship population, yes... if you overlook the problems with the Irish, German and Finnish immigration waves.

Quote:greater impact on American demographics 110 years ago then it has now

I will disagree. Back then we had a frontier. There was wilderness. Immigrants from Northern Europe came over with knowledge of how to survive farming crappy, frozen wastelands like Iowa and Minnesota that no one else wanted. And if they did a poor job, they went hungry and froze during the winter. They didn't add additional traffic to freeways. They didn't add to overcrowding in schools. That was back in the day when we were still building new cities on the frontier. Those days are now several centuries past.

When immigrants come here today, 50% of them settle in California, followed next by New York City. They are direct factors in overcrowding, leading to more freeway congestion, more students per classroom in already overcrowded schools, longer lines at hospital emergency rooms, cutting down forests and blacktopping over prairie land to build more suburb tract housing.

Starting with the 1970s Americans have overwhelmingly chosen on their own to reduce their birth rate to an all time low to try to stop overcrowding and save the environment. Americans see the results of overcrowding and want it to stop.



Immigration is the other half of the overpopulation equation. Americans choosing to reduce their own birth rate doesn't matter worth a shit if we're flying in over a million people per year to add to the population overload. If we want to not blacktop over the entire nation into a giant strip mall, we need to drastically reduce immigration to more sustainable levels as the second half of the overpopulation problem.

One only needs to look at California to see how far we're overstretched. 1/5 of the US population lives in California, a state with a dry season where it doesn't rain for five months straight every year. Water is a limited resource. Whole rivers have now been ran dry to fulfill the water needs of the population growth it suffers. San Francisco and its suburbs divert an entire river 160 miles away to sustain its population. There is no more water left. There are no more rivers to divert. Whole species of fish are being made extinct, while entire rivers are nothing but the toilet water flushed from the next city upstream. The state currently eeks by day by day, but it's only a matter of time before a Katrina level disaster knocks it all apart.

No one denies California is overpopulated far beyond what is long term sustainable. No one denies that in earthquake country it's a disaster that's only a matter of when, not if. But here we are, still shoving in an extra 600,000 people every year because our politicians refuse to say no to more growth. So when the next natural disaster stresses the state's infrastructure, we'll be even more deep in the shit.