Post: #26

(06-05-2012 09:01 PM)Snowman Wrote:  

Quote:Benchpress 155 #( 5 x 3), 165 # (1-3 reps), 175 # (1 Rep Max) and shit I am stuck here for like 3 months , I have tried takin almost 2-3 weeks off, come back and I had to start at 135 got back to my max and am stuck again.

Don't take 2-3 weeks off completely. Muscles only grow if they are being used. Period. The most of a break I would suggest is one week, which isn't much of a break, simply because you don't want to over work you're muscles, then you start to have problems. After about one week every week you don't lift your muscles lose 5-10 pounds of your bench max. Which as you have already explained makes you start back at 135. The trick is to balance rest with work and find that happy medium of effective growth. I believe that a person's growth is unique. Obviously when you look at children it's not hard to see. So its best that you do what's in your body's best intrest to grow. So, instead of taking extended periods off. Switch up you're routine. Everyone who's lifted a dumbell knows what P90X is and they're selling pitch, muscle confusion. So switch up you're routine a bit and keep you're muscles growing. Do some other lifts to grow your chest other than bench. Try dumbell bench, or jammer press, mix your routine up every time you start to slow down and see what happens.

However you're already plateaued. So I strongly suggest to do what my coach once told me. Pushups. Easy up on the bench, and focus on pushups. They increase you're core, which alone can increase your max by 20 pounds. They build muscles that are crucial for bench such as tris, delts, and pecs. And if you haven't already been doing so I'd pause the benching, and find a complete 30-45 min pushup workout. Preferably something that incorporates various types like wide, diamond, ect. At the very least 100 a day, but try to raise that number up by 25-50 every week. Then by the 3 weeks that you normally would've taken off to let you're muscles build, your upper body would have started transforming to the new routine (#muscle confusion). And in three week of doing this every day I guarentee those muscles would've have more endurance, more explosion, and be overall more attractive.
I also recommend pullups and chinups, they're a pain in the ass but they're amazing at building you're body.
I think that a serious problem most lifters have today is that they completely underestimate the gains you get from lifting your body weight. I don't know what it is about it. But it works. The strongest upper body lifter I know built his strength on pushups. He got to a point where he does 1000 a day. He weighs 163 pounds and benches 385.

Some good advice here. Not as much a fan of the higher volume push ups...but I do agree with you. A top coach Alwyn Cosgrove once said that he never even thinks about putting a guy on a bench press until he has maximized his push up work. He said nobody gets on the bench until they can do 30 push ups, with their feet elevated on a bench, and a 25 lb plate resting on the top of their back.

You can use a weight vest or chains if you don't have somebody to put the plate on your back.

Has anybody here tried push ups on rings, TRX, or Jungle Gym XT straps? My favorite freakin exercise. OP, or most others....you'll struggle to do 5 reps, and they make you feel bad ass. Two days later, and the feeling of tightness and DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) and you'll be sold. Gents....please just try them once.

Anyone back me up on this?

Post: #27

(06-06-2012 11:45 AM)Jesse33 Wrote:  Some decent advice given here. I LOVE training, have been an athlete my entire life. Don't have time to answer too much, but I'd advise against decline presses of any variation and try dips instead (weighted if necessary). Also, try push ups on blast straps (TRX, jungle Gym XT, rings, etc) **** NO need to use testosterone supps.

BEST ADVICE for you or anyone on this thread. Can't stress this enough.... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE visit http://www.jasonferruggia.com and spend some time reading his stuff. Nobody knows packing on mass, and incrreasing your lifts like Jason. He has tons of free content, but you can also purchase his programs if you choose to. Have purchased many, and love them all. He's insanely knowledgable, and has the best content - period.

Good luck to you!

Just curious, what's your reasoning behind not doing decline bench press?

Post: #28

(06-06-2012 12:04 PM)Jesse33 Wrote:  Has anybody here tried push ups on rings, TRX, or Jungle Gym XT straps? My favorite freakin exercise. OP, or most others....you'll struggle to do 5 reps, and they make you feel bad ass. Two days later, and the feeling of tightness and DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) and you'll be sold. Gents....please just try them once.

Anyone back me up on this?

Sounds like a piece of cake.

Post: #29

(06-06-2012 12:06 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 11:45 AM)Jesse33 Wrote:  Some decent advice given here. I LOVE training, have been an athlete my entire life. Don't have time to answer too much, but I'd advise against decline presses of any variation and try dips instead (weighted if necessary). Also, try push ups on blast straps (TRX, jungle Gym XT, rings, etc) **** NO need to use testosterone supps.

BEST ADVICE for you or anyone on this thread. Can't stress this enough.... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE visit http://www.jasonferruggia.com and spend some time reading his stuff. Nobody knows packing on mass, and incrreasing your lifts like Jason. He has tons of free content, but you can also purchase his programs if you choose to. Have purchased many, and love them all. He's insanely knowledgable, and has the best content - period.

Good luck to you!

Just curious, what's your reasoning behind not doing decline bench press?

Decline bench has been debated to death, but to be honest - not really by the top strength guys...mostly the "I want my lower pecs to get bigger" crowd. No disrespect here...just my experience. You won't see the top guys endorsing it.

Also, your body ALWAYS responds better to moving through a natural range of motion, and literally through gravity. Always best to move and control your body through gravity, than a bar. Think free weights vs machines, ie - squats vs leg press, or squats vs smith machine, bench press vs push ups, pull ups vs lat pull downs, etc. You will gain much from the all the assisting stabilizing muscles for these movements, and your CNS (central nervous system) will fire more efficiently, and in turn bring greater results.

Dips have historically given the strength gains and returns people are looking for when doing decline presses. If dips are too easy, certainly add weigh via a dip belt, vest, chains, or if you have to a dumbbell between your legs, although that's a pain in the ass. That said...you don't really want to go too heavy (under 6 reps) as it be hard on your shoulders.

The ULTIMATE progression would be doing them on blast straps, rings, TRX, etc. These are very challenging, and even more stabilization/strength is required. Ring training is outstanding for strength gains. I have two sets in my garage. Look at the physique of male gymnasts! Nuff said... Can't wait to watch those guys in the Olympics next month now that I train with rings. Have such a respect for their strength abilities.

I know training quite well. Played division one athletics in college. Used to be a personal trainer, and am very well read on training. Happy to help anybody if they have any questions.

Post: #30

(06-06-2012 12:06 PM)Moma Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 12:04 PM)Jesse33 Wrote:  Has anybody here tried push ups on rings, TRX, or Jungle Gym XT straps? My favorite freakin exercise. OP, or most others....you'll struggle to do 5 reps, and they make you feel bad ass. Two days later, and the feeling of tightness and DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) and you'll be sold. Gents....please just try them once.

Anyone back me up on this?

Sounds like a piece of cake.

May sound like it, but I assure you they're not. Have you tried them Moma? Outstanding exercise!

Post: #31

(06-06-2012 12:06 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 11:45 AM)Jesse33 Wrote:  Some decent advice given here. I LOVE training, have been an athlete my entire life. Don't have time to answer too much, but I'd advise against decline presses of any variation and try dips instead (weighted if necessary). Also, try push ups on blast straps (TRX, jungle Gym XT, rings, etc) **** NO need to use testosterone supps.

BEST ADVICE for you or anyone on this thread. Can't stress this enough.... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE visit http://www.jasonferruggia.com and spend some time reading his stuff. Nobody knows packing on mass, and incrreasing your lifts like Jason. He has tons of free content, but you can also purchase his programs if you choose to. Have purchased many, and love them all. He's insanely knowledgable, and has the best content - period.

Good luck to you!

Just curious, what's your reasoning behind not doing decline bench press?

Decline bench has been debated to death, but to be honest - not really by the top strength guys...mostly the "I want my lower pecs to get bigger" crowd. No disrespect here...just my experience. You won't see the top guys endorsing it.

Also, your body ALWAYS responds better to moving through a natural range of motion, and literally through gravity. Always best to move and control your body through gravity, than a bar. Think free weights vs machines, ie - squats vs leg press, or squats vs smith machine, bench press vs push ups, pull ups vs lat pull downs, etc. You will gain much from the all the assisting stabilizing muscles for these movements, and your CNS (central nervous system) will fire more efficiently, and in turn bring greater results.

Dips have historically given the strength gains and returns people are looking for when doing decline presses. If dips are too easy, certainly add weigh via a dip belt, vest, chains, or if you have to a dumbbell between your legs, although that's a pain in the ass. That said...you don't really want to go too heavy (under 6 reps) as it be hard on your shoulders.

The ULTIMATE progression would be doing them on blast straps, rings, TRX, etc. These are very challenging, and even more stabilization/strength is required. Ring training is outstanding for strength gains. I have two sets in my garage. Look at the physique of male gymnasts! Nuff said... Can't wait to watch those guys in the Olympics next month now that I train with rings. Have such a respect for their strength abilities.

I know training quite well. Played division one athletics in college. Used to be a personal trainer, and am very well read on training. Happy to help anybody if they have any questions.

Post: #32

My old workout partner was a skinny Indian guy who had trouble on bench. But he spent time on the damned stairmaster before lifting, and didn't eat.

You are doing a lot of things right: Stronglifts, creatine, etc. But I worry that you will get bad results if you try to do all the recommendations in this thread (push ups, dips, decline, etc.). You need some regularity to grease the neural groove, make strength gains, and monitor progress. Keep it simple: Eat big, lift big, rest big. That means you should only bench heavy once per week, with one or two additional lighter chest or shoulder pressing workouts. This will help your recovery and central nervous system. An easy workout would be 70% of your normal weight on chest exercises (with the same reps), or 75% of an equivalent weight on shoulder presses. You must do the easy workouts to recover and maintain strength between hard workouts.

Try this for three weeks. Use creatine, peanut butter, and whole (if necessary) milk to gain 1 pound per week. Be rested and prepared for your quality workout. If you are not making gains (at least 1 extra rep in your weekly heavy workout), then you have plateaued. You should then switch exercises or rep schemes. For example, you could switch from 5 reps to 10 reps, or barbell to dumbell, or flat press to incline press. If you start the new exercise at an easy weight then you should ensure 4-6 weeks of gains before stalling again.

Post: #33

Theoretically it seems like a good idea to work the fan-shaped pectoralis by doing incline, flat, and decline barbell bench presses. But decline bench press sucks because of the short range of motion. The barbell starts at your bellybutton and ends at your sternum. You can't go lower without having the barbell going unbalanced and choking you to death. If you must do them, then use dumbells. Better yet, do dips.

Post: #34

Divorco has the potential to become a powerhouse poster here.

Post: #35

Moma Wrote:velkrum - What's your take on the thumbless grip for the bench press?

It's similar to using a thick bar when benching. Some guys find the grip to be more comfortable and places greater emphasis on shoulders and chest. Guys with short arms have the most to benefit from a thumbless grip (greater chest fiber recruitment without the limiting aspect of grip strength).

I personally don't recommend them for guys with long arms or for max lifting.

If you are using it for lighter weight and high reps I think it's a welcomed variation, just be aware that there is a risk of the bar slipping out of your hands.

Divorco Wrote:But decline bench press sucks because of the short range of motion. The barbell starts at your bellybutton and ends at your sternum. You can't go lower

Actually, the short range of motion is why the decline bench press is the BEST form of benching. Lowering the bar past your sternum puts negative stress on your shoulders. You hit a few extra fibers in your chest but you risk damaging your rotator muscles.

Decline may not create that Hyperextension that hits the muscle at its weakest point but it allows you to pile tons of weight on the chest at its sturdiest and safest position.

Incline bench is the most useless of pressing movements when it comes to chest development. Flat benching is not very optimal since the strongest function of the pec major is pulling the arm downwards not horizontally extending the hands.

Post: #36

Divorco Wrote:But decline bench press sucks because of the short range of motion. The barbell starts at your bellybutton and ends at your sternum. You can't go lower

Actually, the short range of motion is why the decline bench press is the BEST form of benching. Lowering the bar past your sternum puts negative stress on your shoulders. You hit a few extra fibers in your chest but you risk damaging your rotator muscles.

Decline may not create that Hyperextension that hits the muscle at its weakest point but it allows you to pile tons of weight on the chest at its sturdiest and safest position.

Incline bench is the most useless of pressing movements when it comes to chest development. Flat benching is not very optimal since the strongest function of the pec major is pulling the arm downwards not horizontally.
[/quote]

Respectfully...I completely disagree with this! Don't want to get into a pissing contest, as it would be just you versus I on a random forum, and nobody knows us from Jack. But, I spend a ton of time training, and reading about strength and conditioning. Was borderline pro athlete. Played D1 college ball, was a trainer etc. that said... Can you cite any top strength coaches who advocate decline bench? Me either. Simply not a practical, nor functional movement pattern.

FYI - I completely was in line with your thinking 10 or so years ago, but now....not a believer in decline at all.

Post: #37

My bad...double post

Post: #38

the only reason i use decline bench is to put less stress on the delts/rotators as one of them is fucked

Post: #39

(06-06-2012 07:47 AM)Moma Wrote:  velkrum - What's your take on the thumbless grip for the bench press? I used to work out with this South Afrikaan guy and he said biomechanics are at the greatest for this.
I noticed that the big boy in the video you posted, grabs the bar thumbless also.

I think the thumbless grip takes the forearms out of the equation, but its less safe as the bar can just roll off and crush yo shit.

Post: #40

If you don't want to be a huge fatass I can't blame you. I've been trying to cut since my bulking diet for the last month and it's going somewhat poorly. Clean food is expensive and sometimes hard to come by.

Personally my route with the bench press would be one round of wave cycling. Drop that bastard down 20-30%, beg/steal/borrow some partial plates from Coach, and do 3-5 reps and 2 sets of flat bench (make sure to deload ~10% for the second set). Do this five times weekly, make sure to never exhaust yourself, and add 5-10 pounds every week. Don't miss a workout.

You could add a pound or three every workout, but that might be too much of a pain.

If you have to warm up, do a few pushups. You don't want to strain your CNS too hard though.

Don't be surprised when your one-rep max goes up 10-20% after six weeks or so (at the same body weight), when you've been jerking off at the same weight for months previous. I was shocked to hell when I did this for the deadlift and it worked. Man was not made to lift heavy all of the time.

Lift until you plateau, do a new PR, then deload again and start over at a lower weight. You can do this indefinitely though your future gains will probably be a little smaller.
Check out Pavel's "Power to the People" for more information.

Also, here is a pretty good article explaining it.
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/201...t-program/

Post: #41

(06-06-2012 01:54 PM)velkrum Wrote:  

Moma Wrote:velkrum - What's your take on the thumbless grip for the bench press?

It's similar to using a thick bar when benching. Some guys find the grip to be more comfortable and places greater emphasis on shoulders and chest. Guys with short arms have the most to benefit from a thumbless grip (greater chest fiber recruitment without the limiting aspect of grip strength).

I personally don't recommend them for guys with long arms or for max lifting.

If you are using it for lighter weight and high reps I think it's a welcomed variation, just be aware that there is a risk of the bar slipping out of your hands.

Divorco Wrote:But decline bench press sucks because of the short range of motion. The barbell starts at your bellybutton and ends at your sternum. You can't go lower

Actually, the short range of motion is why the decline bench press is the BEST form of benching. Lowering the bar past your sternum puts negative stress on your shoulders. You hit a few extra fibers in your chest but you risk damaging your rotator muscles.

Decline may not create that Hyperextension that hits the muscle at its weakest point but it allows you to pile tons of weight on the chest at its sturdiest and safest position.

Incline bench is the most useless of pressing movements when it comes to chest development. Flat benching is not very optimal since the strongest function of the pec major is pulling the arm downwards not horizontally extending the hands.

I have long arms and find that thumb-less grip tracks better for me. It's more dangerous no doubt but I bench in a cage, so I'm mostly covered.

IMO when it comes to benching I have ultimately discovered that bringing my grip width IN is what helped me. It allows me to have move power off the bottom of the lift, I also found it much easier on the joints.

I have to disagree with you about incline bench as i feel it is one of the best chest exercises for chest development. IMO nothing beats Dumbbell incline benches for getting that nice squared off looked to your chest. I found that to much emphasis on dips and declines give me that saggy tit look ....not a good look!

But dips are great I would just make sure to balance them with other Pec exercises.

Post: #42

rhodey Wrote:

1. I have long arms and find that thumb-less grip tracks better for me.
2. IMO when it comes to benching I have ultimately discovered that bringing my grip width IN is what helped me. It allows me to have move power off the bottom of the lift, I also found it much easier on the joints.
3. I have to disagree with you about incline bench as i feel it is one of the best chest exercises for chest development. IMO nothing beats Dumbbell incline benches for getting that nice squared off looked to your chest. I found that to much emphasis on dips and declines give me that saggy tit look ....not a good look!
4. But dips are great I would just make sure to balance them with other Pec exercises.
   

1. If it works, it works. (I just don't recommend it as your main technique for pressing)
2. Yep, this is true. The longer the arms, the closer (more in line with the shoulder) the grip, the stronger the pressing power. At some point in time if you only use this grip your chest development will become impaired. Eventually you will need to learn how to bench with a wider grip and lighter weight to develop the outer edges of the pec.
3. Incline DB Bench press is great but its supplemental not primary. No one builds a great chest with one exercise (and one type of grip width). There are exercises that are better than others and incline pressing is not at the top of the list (but they are on the list).
4. exactly, variety is the key for chest development

Post: #43

(06-08-2012 11:02 PM)velkrum Wrote:  At some point in time if you only use this grip your chest development will become impaired. Eventually you will need to learn how to bench with a wider grip and lighter weight to develop the outer edges of the pec.

That hasn't been may experience at all. In fact, there are professional
powerlifters (like K.K.) with long limbs that bench this way and their chest development isn't lacking at all.







One has to factor in your individual proportions when it comes to certain lifts.

In my experience wide grip benches work well with short arm lifters but they place long armed lifters at a leverage disadvantage because it's much more difficult for us to generate any power from the bottom of the movement. Once I moved my grip in , my bench shot up and as a result so did my chest development. I will never go back to wide grip benches. If I want to work my outer pecs I just do dips.

Quote:[*]Incline DB Bench press is great but its supplemental not primary. No one builds a great chest with one exercise (and one type of grip width). There are exercises that are better than others and incline pressing is not at the top of the list (but they are on the list).

I feel that for pec stimulation Dumbbell incline presses are 2nd to none. But that might be due to my specific proportions.... That doesn't mean that I recommend them as the ONLY worthwhile chest exercise, however from a functional perspective I feel that they target the pec muscles more directly through a longer range of motion better than any other chest exercise.

Now mind you I also bench with a barbell , because (as you mentioned) you need some amount of variety and Barbell benches are great for overall upper body mass and power. Declines suck for me , never got anything out of doing them and they always felt awkward.

Dips are also great but I need to be careful with those for the reason I mentioned earlier.

But IMO you don't need all that much variety. In fact I recommend anyone pick 1-3 "money maker" exercises for a body part that works for them and concentrate on getting ridiculously strong in those movements.

You can muck around with the rep ranges, grip width and rest intervals and that's all the variety most any non professional body builder would need IMO.

Again I'll say The key for chest development (or any other type of development), for a non juiced individual is to simply spend the time to get strong in the KEY compound movements.

Switching in too many exercises every other month(ala Flex magazine routines) without building a base is counter productive to progression IMO.

My key movements for chest are,:Incline/flat Dumbbell presses, Incline/flat Barbell bench presses and dips. Those movements are what produced the most results for me through 16 years of lifting.

Post: #44

"Incline bench is the most useless of pressing movements when it comes to chest development. Flat benching is not very optimal since the strongest function of the pec major is pulling the arm downwards not horizontally extending the hands."


According to Bill Starr Weightlifter and powerlifter guru, the incline press is far superior to the benchpress.

excessive use of the benchpress can lead to shoulder problems.
The standing press is also a great exercise.

Post: #45

If you take two identical athletes (with same food program) and set them at eight weeks of either

-A standard diet of dumb bells, barbell type presses, and 5x5 stronglifts type shit
or
-A gymnastic workout on rings with a coach

The second guy will exhibit hpertrophy/strength increases that are incomparably greater than the first.

Most biologists agree that an ape is ~3 times more swole than a human being at the same body weight, and they basically do it through gymnastics. You all should give more credit to the humble suspension trainer or gymnastic ring.

Post: #46

(06-09-2012 08:48 PM)Hades Wrote:  Most biologists agree that an ape is ~3 times more swole than a human ... through gymnastics.

Do any biologists think humans are stronger than apes?

Do you want to compare training 3-year-old babies (humans) on rings with training 3-year-old chimps on bench press?

Post: #47

(06-09-2012 08:48 PM)Hades Wrote:  If you take two identical athletes (with same food program) and set them at eight weeks of either

-A standard diet of dumb bells, barbell type presses, and 5x5 stronglifts type shit
or
-A gymnastic workout on rings with a coach

The second guy will exhibit hpertrophy/strength increases that are incomparably greater than the first.

Most biologists agree that an ape is ~3 times more swole than a human being at the same body weight, and they basically do it through gymnastics. You all should give more credit to the humble suspension trainer or gymnastic ring.

The reason apes are stronger than humans is because of their genetics. If you raise a human amongst apes, his or her ass will still get tanned by the laziest simian.

Using their training lifestyle as rationale to why they are stronger is not the right way.

Post: #48

I'm having trouble with the bench (and the overhead press) too.

Stats:
6'2, 220lb
Squat: 315x1
Dead: 315x5
Row: 235x1
OHP: 125x3
Bench: 115x5 (I shit you not, I swear I've caught bros chuckling until they see me set up in the squat rack the next day). I can close grip BP 135 on a good day.

I've read the info in this thread and have applied most of it. The weight I was at was easier, but I moved up 5lbs and i was barely to fully rep it out. I also have a lot of scar tissue in my upper chest and the front part of my shoulder was numb (and still is sometimes) after that injury. Does scar tissue and possibly nerve damage affect this at all?

My training goal is to compete in a powerlifting meet with respectable numbers sometime next year, obviously having a good bench is part of that goal. Should I just keep playing around with my setup/form until I find something that works or what?

Post: #49

I have an article from Australian Men's Fitness which I reckon is a pretty good benchmark for fitness. Within a year of training you should be able to bench at least 80kg, 1-3 years 90-100kg, 3 or more years 110-120 kg. It also gives recommendations for pullups, deadlifts, squats, pressups and 1 mile run.

Post: #50

Alrighty guys, I apologize for the ape comment. Did some reading and found that they have some kind of fucked up muscle recruitment genes.

OP, have you tried a wave cycle?
Also, this article is good to look at. Your weakness might be a shoulder imbalance, in which case, start overhead pressing. At the very least, try some durational handstands. My ability to bench went up significantly after I could do a 1.5 minute handstand. This took about a month to build up to.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_arti...r_press_up