Post: #26

(10-14-2012 10:29 PM)megatron Wrote:  

(10-14-2012 10:05 PM)IQVX Wrote:  Get a Bachelors in Computer Science or Information Technology, tout that alongside a portfolio of your web design work. You won't get serious enough consideration without a four-year degree.

Are you a web designer or work in a related field?

Interesting. What you're saying seems to be in direct opposition to what everyone else is saying here.

And while I want to learn to code Ruby, Python for Rails and Java eventually, maybe go into Android App Design, I'm going to focus on web design first.

So you think a good portfolio won't be good enough?

I'm about to graduate with a degree in Information Systems (Basically IT with some business fused in). While web design isn't my main forte, I've met people who were taking new media and web design classes at my school to finish up a Bachelor's they tried to pursue years ago. They'd dropped school in the past and worked little jobs related to web design or development but couldn't find anything steady. If you can afford it, you should absolutely get a four-year degree. Essentially guaranteed a job with a CS/IT/related Bachelor's, and it's one of very few four-year degrees you can say that about.

An exception would be if you're absolutely outstanding at web design and truly feel like your work is good enough that it's not worth the investment of pursuing a degree.

Post: #27

(10-14-2012 11:48 PM)LoveBug Wrote:  Follow your dreams man, and do whatever you want to do. As has already been mentioned, the field of web design is becoming somewhat outsourced, from what I have seen. People who are net savvy know they can get people in India, Vietnam or wherever to custom design websites for far cheaper, although at this stage most businesses and everyday people now will still hire locals

Yeah, unfortunately the value of that field has been thrashed by crowdsourcing and all the click n build templates. I started seeing this race to the bottom in the mid 2000s. Everyone and his mother mother now thinks they are a web designer because they can add a background to a wordpress template. Back in the late 90s, you were making a killing if you could merely spell HTML. These days it's probably best to focus more on development and programming which has a steeper learning curve and will be somewhat less competitive. At my last 9-5 job, we put out an ad for a full-time position as a web designer. The bad news is that there were tons of applications for the jobs, the good news is that the overwhelming majority of them sucked ass when viewing the portfolios, often laughably so. I think if you're a good and competent designer, it's probably no more competitive than any other field. Like anything, the best jobs will be found through networking. Inhouse jobs aren't likely to be threatened by competition from India. Some companies simply need people there, in the office from 9-5 to carry out daily tasks that change by the hour. They can't send that shit overseas so easily. But if you're talking about building small business sites, yeah, Indian job trolls are trying to steal those by doing them for 10x less what you would charge. Nothing you can really do about it either.

Post: #28

(10-14-2012 10:05 PM)IQVX Wrote:  Get a Bachelors in Computer Science or Information Technology, tout that alongside a portfolio of your web design work. You won't get serious enough consideration without a four-year degree.

A CS degree might have some usefulness if he's going to be a developer, but even then I know he could get high paying gigs or full time jobs at forwarding thinking companies (i.e. cool jobs you would actually want) without a degree if he knew his shit. For design, lol @ a CS or MIS degree.

(10-14-2012 11:48 PM)LoveBug Wrote:  Follow your dreams man, and do whatever you want to do. As has already been mentioned, the field of web design is becoming somewhat outsourced, from what I have seen. People who are net savvy know they can get people in India, Vietnam or wherever to custom design websites for far cheaper, although at this stage most businesses and everyday people now will still hire locals

You still pretty much get what you pay for. It's a global market place now, for sure, but Westerners are still leaps and bounds ahead of the developing world in terms of professionalism and quality of work (on average) for high level knowledge work (including anything to do with web design and development). For a while I was convinced I was going to find a bunch of cut rate third worlders to outsource all my first world clients to and rake in the cash, but that's never worked out for me. I always go back to native english speakers who know what they're doing.

And Asia is the worst of them, from what I've seen. On top of usually poor communication and mediocre skills, you have various cultural issues where contract workers don't feel much of a sense of responsibility and will flake out on you whenever they feel like it (India is better in that regard). I'd sooner look at Eastern Europe for cheap labor.

Post: #29

As an inspiring professional Web Designer and Developer myself, I think the question for this thread would be:

Anyone here lives a location independent lifestyle as a web designer/developer?

Post: #30

(10-15-2012 12:39 AM)FretDancer Wrote:  As an inspiring professional Web Designer and Developer myself, I think the question for this thread would be:

Anyone here lives a location independent lifestyle as a web designer/developer?

When I met Maverick Traveler (http://www.mavericktraveler.com) in Brazil a few years back, I know he was doing some sort of development work and living location independent. Don't know if he's still doing that or segued into something else by now.

Post: #31

(10-15-2012 12:39 AM)FretDancer Wrote:  As an inspiring professional Web Designer and Developer myself, I think the question for this thread would be:

Anyone here lives a location independent lifestyle as a web designer/developer?

Yep. The only real limiting factor is that high paying clients (or agencies) are typically in North America which makes going to Europe or Asia kind of hard to do long term.

Post: #32

(10-14-2012 11:48 PM)LoveBug Wrote:  Follow your dreams man, and do whatever you want to do. As has already been mentioned, the field of web design is becoming somewhat outsourced, from what I have seen. People who are net savvy know they can get people in India, Vietnam or wherever to custom design websites for far cheaper, although at this stage most businesses and everyday people now will still hire locals

Actually, I've been told by several designers that web design was attempted to be outsourced years ago but it was mostly a colossal failure because of the language barrier and big artistic differences that people in Asia have compared to here. Virtually any one who wants a website done right will not outsource it to Asia anymore.

Post: #33

I just joined Lynda.com and am now watching the Web Design Fundamentals video set.

My Notepad is already filled with so many notes. A lot of good stuff here.

Thanks again for the advice so far, guys. It's been literally invaluable to me.

Post: #34

(10-12-2012 10:55 PM)iWin Wrote:  The first option is probably not worth it. At that point you might as well go to a good uni and get a computer science(super in demand degree) major with a minor or concentration in graphic design. It'll be about the same cost wise especially if you enroll in a community college for the first two years. CC is also another option to find some web design classes. Your spare time should be spent learning the web design stuff on the side. Like HiFlo said all the web designers I know started out in it as a hobby, as web design and web programming typically isn't taught with much depth in most curriculums, although you may find a course or two in more progressive CS, IT and/or MIS programs. Your best bet is to look online. For server side stuff check out this link from Harvard.

http://cs75.tv/2009/fall/

For HTML, CSS, and Web design the Head First series is in its own class, as I can attest personally(they also have great reviews). Find at your local library or cop online via Amazon or the links below:

http://www.headfirstlabs.com/books/hfwd/
http://www.headfirstlabs.com/books/hfprog/
http://www.headfirstlabs.com/books/hfphp/
http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596159924.do

Lastly, for databases(essential for server side stuff) check out this great database ebook from IBM. Covers all the theory with lots of practical examples.
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/wikis...ndamentals

Happy coding.

These Head First books really do look great. I want to get them for used for cheap.

Questions: Do they come with CD-Roms? Will I be missing anything if I buy a used, but intact, copy?

Post: #35

No they're just books. You may be able to torrent the ebooks, but you can find all the necessary source code on their site, free of charge. The link will be in the book.If you want the HTML ebook PM me for details.

Post: #36

(10-16-2012 03:10 AM)megatron Wrote:  These Head First books really do look great. I want to get them for used for cheap.

Questions: Do they come with CD-Roms? Will I be missing anything if I buy a used, but intact, copy?

Jesus christ dude, do you really expect RVFers to know the quality and condition of USED BOOKS that you are unique to you that YOU buy? Get a grip man.

If you're asking all these silly sorts of questions you are better off in school at this point than in trying to teach yourself anything.

And there are probably MORE coding forums on the net than any other single genre of forum which you should probably find and become part of those communities. You want to know which ones? Try this link.

Post: #37

(10-16-2012 10:03 AM)HiFlo Wrote:  

(10-16-2012 03:10 AM)megatron Wrote:  These Head First books really do look great. I want to get them for used for cheap.

Questions: Do they come with CD-Roms? Will I be missing anything if I buy a used, but intact, copy?

Jesus christ dude, do you really expect RVFers to know the quality and condition of USED BOOKS that you are unique to you that YOU buy? Get a grip man.

If you're asking all these silly sorts of questions you are better off in school at this point than in trying to teach yourself anything.

And there are probably MORE coding forums on the net than any other single genre of forum which you should probably find and become part of those communities. You want to know which ones? Try this link.

Your time would be much better served if you stopped posting in this thread, went back to community college and learned some rudimentary reading comprehension.

Take a break from dancing:

Post: #38

(10-16-2012 08:51 AM)iWin Wrote:  No they're just books. You may be able to torrent the ebooks, but you can find all the necessary source code on their site, free of charge. The link will be in the book.If you want the HTML ebook PM me for details.

Thanks, man. This is really helpful information.

Yeah, I might take you up on that offer: thank God for Paypal. I'm going to keep going wild on Lynda.com. I feel like a kid in a candy store on it.

Post: #39

I get the feeling that megatron is really indiantroll v12

Post: #40

(10-15-2012 12:25 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  Yeah, unfortunately the value of that field has been thrashed by crowdsourcing and all the click n build templates. I started seeing this race to the bottom in the mid 2000s. Everyone and his mother mother now thinks they are a web designer because they can add a background to a wordpress template.

Except that a lot of designers also use wordpress templates as a starting foundation for their websites.

Unless you are building large corporate networks, it doesn't make sense not to use wordpress, or joomla or your favourite cms. The functionality that can be achieved quite economically using these platforms would have cost you $10,000+ a few years ago.

I know a few companies generating substantial e-commerce revenue on WP and joomla.

Post: #41

(10-16-2012 02:30 PM)ManAbout Wrote:  

(10-15-2012 12:25 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  Yeah, unfortunately the value of that field has been thrashed by crowdsourcing and all the click n build templates. I started seeing this race to the bottom in the mid 2000s. Everyone and his mother mother now thinks they are a web designer because they can add a background to a wordpress template.

Except that a lot of designers also use wordpress templates as a starting foundation for their websites.

Unless you are building large corporate networks, it doesn't make sense not to use wordpress, or joomla or your favourite cms. The functionality that can be achieved quite economically using these platforms would have cost you $10,000+ a few years ago.

I know a few companies generating substantial e-commerce revenue on WP and joomla.

How are they doing this? They set up pay/by monthly wordpress accounts with shopping cart widgets?

And what does this mean for designers and developers? Does it devalue what they do? I mean, obviously it does, but who's got it worse because of the this, the coders or the designers?
/doesn't know wordpress

Post: #42

(10-16-2012 04:50 PM)megatron Wrote:  How are they doing this? They set up pay/by monthly wordpress accounts with shopping cart widgets?

And what does this mean for designers and developers? Does it devalue what they do? I mean, obviously it does, but who's got it worse because of the this, the coders or the designers?
/doesn't know wordpress

Self hosted sites Wordpress or Joomla sites with plugins or components. One company for example is running their full wholesale catalog on a Joomla backend. Retailers place their orders on the website and it's shipped out. All done by off the shelf components. Another chain of fitness studios is running all their class schedules, online class registrations and attendance on Wordpress. What it means for developers and designers is that you can build websites and offer value quickly without having to spend years studying web design. And if you do want to study it, there is the whole higher end of the web design that is still open to you.

Post: #43

(10-16-2012 07:54 PM)ManAbout Wrote:  

(10-16-2012 04:50 PM)megatron Wrote:  How are they doing this? They set up pay/by monthly wordpress accounts with shopping cart widgets?

And what does this mean for designers and developers? Does it devalue what they do? I mean, obviously it does, but who's got it worse because of the this, the coders or the designers?
/doesn't know wordpress

Self hosted sites Wordpress or Joomla sites with plugins or components. One company for example is running their full wholesale catalog on a Joomla backend. Retailers place their orders on the website and it's shipped out. All done by off the shelf components. Another chain of fitness studios is running all their class schedules, online class registrations and attendance on Wordpress. What it means for developers and designers is that you can build websites and offer value quickly without having to spend years studying web design. And if you do want to study it, there is the whole higher end of the web design that is still open to you.

when you say higher end, what do you mean specifically?

Post: #44

(10-17-2012 01:07 AM)megatron Wrote:  

(10-16-2012 07:54 PM)ManAbout Wrote:  

(10-16-2012 04:50 PM)megatron Wrote:  How are they doing this? They set up pay/by monthly wordpress accounts with shopping cart widgets?

And what does this mean for designers and developers? Does it devalue what they do? I mean, obviously it does, but who's got it worse because of the this, the coders or the designers?
/doesn't know wordpress

Self hosted sites Wordpress or Joomla sites with plugins or components. One company for example is running their full wholesale catalog on a Joomla backend. Retailers place their orders on the website and it's shipped out. All done by off the shelf components. Another chain of fitness studios is running all their class schedules, online class registrations and attendance on Wordpress. What it means for developers and designers is that you can build websites and offer value quickly without having to spend years studying web design. And if you do want to study it, there is the whole higher end of the web design that is still open to you.

when you say higher end, what do you mean specifically?

I'm guessing he means sites that need lots of highly customized functionality that can't be build using out the box templates and plugins. Think Facebook or Google Maps.

You know, one of the most difficult things for me was trying to determine what to charge. It can be really tricky. It's not like a copywriter that charges X amount per word. There's so many variables in web design/development that charging the right amount that makes you feel fairly compensated without scaring your client off feels like an art more than a science.

Post: #45

(10-17-2012 01:07 AM)megatron Wrote:  when you say higher end, what do you mean specifically?

More specialized stuff like this for example:

http://www.socialcubix.com/

Facebook and social media applications, viral games for brand building and marketing. These applications start at $20K and can easily run up to $200K or more depending on the requirements.

Post: #46

I'm really glad I posted this thread not only in web design forums. a bunch of you guys really know your stuff. I'm really impressed.

Funny thing is, I'm actually getting better responses here than in the web development forum I posted this in.

Post: #47

(10-17-2012 10:36 AM)megatron Wrote:  I'm really glad I posted this thread not only in web design forums. a bunch of you guys really know your stuff. I'm really impressed.

Funny thing is, I'm actually getting better responses here than in the web development forum I posted this in.

No offense, but most guys on these web development forums are straight up coders with no business sense. They might be smart guys, but they have a very one dimensional view. They are very hung up on the actual technology versus providing business solutions.

Start throwing up some Wordpress sites for practice, and to help you market yourself. Getting business and selling your services is the most important piece of it.

Post: #48

(10-18-2012 10:00 AM)ManAbout Wrote:  

(10-17-2012 10:36 AM)megatron Wrote:  I'm really glad I posted this thread not only in web design forums. a bunch of you guys really know your stuff. I'm really impressed.

Funny thing is, I'm actually getting better responses here than in the web development forum I posted this in.

No offense, but most guys on these web development forums are straight up coders with no business sense. They might be smart guys, but they have a very one dimensional view. They are very hung up on the actual technology versus providing business solutions.

Start throwing up some Wordpress sites for practice, and to help you market yourself. Getting business and selling your services is the most important piece of it.

I'll definitely start learning Wordpress, it seems to be the rage right now.

What do you do, by the way?

And what do you guys think: In conjunction to taking web design and wordpress Lynda courses, I want to take either a drawing class or a digital photography class. Which do you think would be more useful? I used to be a pretty good artist in my late teens, was even tutored one-on-one by a professional. Which skill would be more valuable? Of course, I'm going to hone my Photoshop and Illustrator skills, as well.

Post: #49

(10-18-2012 12:30 PM)megatron Wrote:  I'll definitely start learning Wordpress, it seems to be the rage right now.

What do you do, by the way?

And what do you guys think: In conjunction to taking web design and wordpress Lynda courses, I want to take either a drawing class or a digital photography class. Which do you think would be more useful? I used to be a pretty good artist in my late teens, was even tutored one-on-one by a professional. Which skill would be more valuable? Of course, I'm going to hone my Photoshop and Illustrator skills, as well.

I am doing something along the lines of what I have told you.

I think digital photography + photoshop + illustrator is a killer combination. Take a look at istockphoto.com. Stock images are a very profitable business.

Post: #50

I'd say only go for web design if it's really your passion. The other guys are completely right. Even people who know limited PHP (me for example) can make a good looking site using just wordpress. Anything super complicated will require a more custom job, which then you're looking towards Python, Ruby on Rails, PHP etc., which a lot of web designers are not really good at (the mind of a designer and a programmer and completely different) Nowadays any buffoon can install Wordpress, buy a $50 premium template + ecommerce plugin, have some graphics made cheaply from 99designs.com, and boom: easy, cheap website.

All that being said, learn PHP, Wordpress, and design anyways!

I work in online marketing and having those skills on your resume sets you above a lot of other candidates. Companies always need help on those fronts, and always want someone in house to do it instead of Indians (even if they're super cheap, the quality varies). Also, when the time comes for you to start your own service business or create your own product, you'll already have it covered