Post: #1

Recently I've been thinking about the whole concept of game, and I think I've hit on something.

Most game methods approach dealing with women in a results-oriented way. The objective is usually along the lines of "more sex with higher quality women" and changing your behaviour (becoming more "alpha", say) in order to achieve this. However game also espouses concepts such as "abundance mentality" - how can we reconcile having an abundance mentality with changing behaviour in order to maximise results?

I think that instead we could see dating as non-results oriented, but oriented towards principles of honesty and doing what you want, incorporating dating into an honest lifestyle where you're straight with everyone. Being honest with women and seeing which women appreciate that - the ones that do are going to be awesome to be around and deal with. Sure we might get rejected more but that was part of the game anyway and I'd personally be willing to take more rejection if it meant finding women that I really connected with and didnt have to expend a lot of effort being 'alpha' around. Abundance gives you the freedom to deal with women on your own terms once the orientation towards results has been let go of.


Thoughts?


Note to Roosh/mods: I'm not being a game denialist here, I accept that a majority of women will share preferences with regards to behaviour. I wanted to say that because I wouldn't want to be misinterpreted and then banned as a result.

Post: #2

(01-05-2013 08:27 PM)Ramon Zarate Wrote:  Most game methods approach dealing with women in a results-oriented way. The objective is usually along the lines of "more sex with higher quality women" and changing your behaviour (becoming more "alpha", say) in order to achieve this. However game also espouses concepts such as "abundance mentality" - how can we reconcile having an abundance mentality with changing behaviour in order to maximise results?

Before we go back and forth with you on your conclusion drawn from your premise, *You* need to make the case that "abundance mentality" is in tension with "changing your behavior to have more sex with higher quality women".

I don't see any tension at all.
I don't see any relationship at all really.
It is not obvious on the face of your post that there is a tension between the 2 concepts.

Please give us a real world example where the 2 concepts conflict, and how that conflict affects getting a lay, or a sequence of lays.

WIA

Post: #3

WIA: here's an example where a tension could occur -

Shit tests: a woman starts shit testing you, and if you have an abundance mentality you might think "fuck this, I'm going to talk to a girl who won't shit test me" and leave. Leaving because it's a pain to talk to someone who keeps giving you shit is not really very good for getting results, if what game guys say is true about shit tests often being a means for a woman to assess your 'alphaness'. Surely in terms of results the best thing would be to pass the shit tests instead of leaving.


Also, if you have (or at least, perceive yourself to be in a state of) abundance, why go to all the effort to change your behaviour for better results? If many girls don't like your behaviour, then you'll usually find a few who will (within reason), if you live in abundance.

Post: #4

(01-05-2013 09:04 PM)Ramon Zarate Wrote:  WIA: here's an example where a tension could occur -

Shit tests: a woman starts shit testing you, and if you have an abundance mentality you might think "fuck this, I'm going to talk to a girl who won't shit test me" and leave. Leaving because it's a pain to talk to someone who keeps giving you shit is not really very good for getting results, if what game guys say is true about shit tests often being a means for a woman to assess your 'alphaness'. Surely in terms of results the best thing would be to pass the shit tests instead of leaving.


Also, if you have (or at least, perceive yourself to be in a state of) abundance, why go to all the effort to change your behaviour for better results? If many girls don't like your behaviour, then you'll usually find a few who will (within reason), if you live in abundance.

Ya, that makes sense. I've heard arguments similar to that before.

I'm reminded of when I was 32 trying to date a 24 year old hottie prom queen. She was complaining about how some bad boy was always moving on, and I quipped "ya, beautiful people don't seem to appreciate what they have". She stared at me as if I had just called her a shallow cunt, which I suppose I did.

Seems to me that as you say, abundance can be a form of giving yourself an excuse to not really sink into the situation and work with it. It's a way to be shallow, and flit on to the next flower without exploring in any depth your current situation.

Or it can be a means to more easily maintain healthy boundaries and avoid drama and bullshit.

But drama and bullshit are what we have to be able to deal with, in order to get women deeply hooked. There are no sane women. Anywhere. Not even one. Not on earth, and not on mars.

Post: #5

An abundance mentality should not leave you thinking, "Fuck this" when a woman starts throwing shit tests your way. A woman shit testing you is likely a sign that she's attracted to you and it's part of the dance.

If she's being downright bitchy or rude, the abundance mentality allows you to laugh it off and decide for yourself: Do you want to move forward in the interaction and plow this bitch? Or put her in her place and move on to the next approach?

Shit tests are not meant to be "passed". They're meant to be nuked. They are a display that the woman has zero bearing on your foundation as a man. If there was a literal dialogue of a shit test it would be:

Female: "Are you man enough to deal with my cutting remarks and critical, suspicious nature?"
Male: "Ha HA! Your petty digs do nothing to move me, cheap harlot! Shut thy mouth and let us leave this venue immediately, lest my righteous boner find another, more receptive hostess!"

Even though you have an abundance mindset, you still know as a player that shit-tests just come with the territory. Don't think about shit-tests as changing your behavior. Think about them like learning some new chess moves.

Being honest and congruent is all a part of it. The abundance mentality allows you to act like a man; erratic, freewheeling, unpredictable, ALPHA, because your devil-may-care attitude might drive off the prudes, but it will attract the whores.

Post: #6

(01-05-2013 09:04 PM)Ramon Zarate Wrote:  WIA: here's an example where a tension could occur -

Shit tests: a woman starts shit testing you, and if you have an abundance mentality you might think "fuck this, I'm going to talk to a girl who won't shit test me" and leave. Leaving because it's a pain to talk to someone who keeps giving you shit is not really very good for getting results, if what game guys say is true about shit tests often being a means for a woman to assess your 'alphaness'. Surely in terms of results the best thing would be to pass the shit tests instead of leaving.


Also, if you have (or at least, perceive yourself to be in a state of) abundance, why go to all the effort to change your behaviour for better results? If many girls don't like your behaviour, then you'll usually find a few who will (within reason), if you live in abundance.

The Abundance Mentality is recognizing that there are millions of girls out there, and that you shouldn't hold any one girl, much less some stranger chick you met at a club, to be special. You've seen one pair of legs in a miniskirt and 5 inch heels, you'll see thousands more.

The Abundance Mentality is not an excuse to avoid chicks who "shit test". Because if you did, if you were trying to do "authentic self" game, you wouldn't have heard of the Game in the first place.

Prior to Game, you were being the REAL YOU. The you that likes midnight pizza, hanging out with your friends, not going to the club.. The you that dresses like a sports fan, doesn't work out, and doesn't care.

But you realized that you didn't like the results that the REAL YOU was getting, so you realized that REAL YOU need to become REAL YOU 2.0.

Before you even step to a shit testing lawyer femcunt, you've already changed yourself, your core being, for some stranger, and just for the possibility that you can sleep with her. OMG

Uncle Roosh learned a grip of languages, quit his job, traveled the world...et cetera..a totally 180 from Roosh the Lab Drone...just for pussy?

OH NO!

This has been discussed to death in the community, In the early days, it was called, "Is PUA the new AFC". All sorts of very reductionist thinking (aka trolling) akin to 1) is game moral/ethical, 2) money v. game, 3) is it just a #'s game?

All of it centered on the central fact that you had to do things differently in order to get different results. That couldn't just keep doing the same thing and a hot chick would fall into your lap.

Men don't like change.

WIA

Post: #7

It's all about balance. Thinking about abundance keeps you from getting hung up on some objectively-poor prospect whom you would otherwise, by human nature, tend to pedestalize: "Oh my gosh, I need to get laid!! And she smiled at me and acknowledged my existence!! I better start doing her favors! She's so hot!!" Obviously, it would be unreasonable to think 'abundance' in defiance of all reason and put in zero effort "because, after all, there are so many women that some are bound to come along and fall right onto your cock..." As the many omegas of the world can attest, that strategy doesn't work so well. (It can appear to work well for experienced players because their 'don't give a fuck' attitude actually incorporates many unconscious cues which speak to women, but that's another story.)

Calibration of behavior is necessary because men have a higher initial sex drive and so tend to be the ones to approach, and it is in the nature of women to be discriminatory when evaluating a man, because choosing a mate involves many more consequences for her than it does for a man, at least in the short-medium term. It is more practical to change an offending habit or aspect if this can readily be done than to approach 10,000 women until you chance upon one of the five girls in all Europe who aren't turned off by it.

Post: #8

(01-05-2013 08:27 PM)Ramon Zarate Wrote:  Most game methods approach dealing with women in a results-oriented way. The objective is usually along the lines of "more sex with higher quality women" and changing your behaviour (becoming more "alpha", say) in order to achieve this. However game also espouses concepts such as "abundance mentality" - how can we reconcile having an abundance mentality with changing behaviour in order to maximise results?

Abundance mentality is just the conscious understanding that there are lots of women to meet. It has nothing to do with your behavior or your style of game.

(01-05-2013 08:27 PM)Ramon Zarate Wrote:  I think that instead we could see dating as non-results oriented, but oriented towards principles of honesty and doing what you want, incorporating dating into an honest lifestyle where you're straight with everyone. Being honest with women and seeing which women appreciate that - the ones that do are going to be awesome to be around and deal with. Sure we might get rejected more but that was part of the game anyway and I'd personally be willing to take more rejection if it meant finding women that I really connected with and didn't have to expend a lot of effort being 'alpha' around.

IMO this is the most potent "way". It's not some schtick or technique. It's an attitude. Basically what you mean is screening based approach [that I've been preaching since day 1] where you look for your type of a girl that you find attractive [beyond looks] instead of target hunting.

(01-05-2013 09:04 PM)Ramon Zarate Wrote:  Shit tests: a woman starts shit testing you, and if you have an abundance mentality you might think "fuck this, I'm going to talk to a girl who won't shit test me" and leave. Leaving because it's a pain to talk to someone who keeps giving you shit is not really very good for getting results, if what game guys say is true about shit tests often being a means for a woman to assess your 'alphaness'. Surely in terms of results the best thing would be to pass the shit tests instead of leaving.

You take it too far. This is not "honesty method". This is laziness and unrealistic approach. If you are honest with girls you talk to they shittest you harder than when you game them indirectly. This is to be expected. They see your balls on the line. And they like it. But honesty means outstanding social experience girls are not accustomed to. They have to find out if that's for real. So if you decide to ignore social pressure you created yourself cause it's pain in the ass then you lose. Only when this interaction goes south your abundance kicks in and you go meet another girl.

When you project that honest & authentic vibe social pressure/tension will come. Embrace it. However, let's not be stupid, if the girl is total bitch to you for 5 minutes and doesn't calm down then it's your decision what to do.

(01-05-2013 09:04 PM)Ramon Zarate Wrote:  Also, if you have (or at least, perceive yourself to be in a state of) abundance, why go to all the effort to change your behaviour for better results? If many girls don't like your behaviour, then you'll usually find a few who will (within reason), if you live in abundance.

1.. we can think we're in abundance mode all we want but if we have no proof of that then this is just another delusion like "i could do this, i could do that..". yeah so do it. Abundance mentality is cool cause your understand that there are plenty fish in the sea. But only abundance REALITY is the first hand proof of that.
2.. to create abundance [of girls] in our life we need some balls and some game. If our current behavior bring poor results then those rejections is surely motivating to step up and change our behavior.
3.. in the end it's all about quality of sex life in general

Post: #9

Quote:Sure we might get rejected more but that was part of the game anyway and I'd personally be willing to take more rejection if it meant finding women that I really connected with and didnt have to expend a lot of effort being 'alpha' around.

You aren't going to find more women that you connect with, because all women are herd creatures and are almost identical. If you want to experience a genuine change in woman's personality you need to switch cultures.

Post: #10

I've always liked playing the honesty card with women because like you said, it weeds out the girls who appreciate it and would be worth the effort, as compared to girls who you will be forced to play games with and act 'alpha' around purposely.

Many many guys are against telling a girl how they honestly feel, such as telling her you caught feelings for her and you want to see her more, etc. But I personally find that if you're dealing with a girl who is genuine, well raised, has values/morals and will appreciate your efforts, honesty works much better than the alpha player front you put up.

Don't get me wrong, it's a bonus if the girl thinks you're a player from the start because you are good looking or because of the way you carry yourself, but letting her know honestly how you feel about her and your situation with her could be a great thing.

Post: #11

WIA: a lot of this discussion then collapses into the debate about what constitutes the self. Perhaps I should describe what I mean not as "changing yourself" but "deviating from honesty". I'd say they're quite separate concepts. However I suspect a lot of the reason why people weren't getting results before game is also because they weren't going out, approaching, and getting into self-improvement. So what I'm talking about isn't "do exactly what you did before and play Warcraft all day in your mum's basement".

XXL: A more appropriate reaction to an honest man would be to be less confrontational, not more, and so let her guard down a bit. You've already showed her you're for real so why should she still be confrontational? Also not all girls shit test. There exist a lot of anecdotes of men getting laid without having to deal with shit tests, I'm sure it's happened to some of you before as well.

Samseau: I don't agree with this. Sure, women have a much greater tendency to be consensus-oriented than men, but that doesnt mean they're ALL the same. I'd only have to find one woman that differs from the rest to disprove your argument.

Post: #12

I think you might be overvaluing your self perceptions.

If you are in your head thinking how high value you are, or how effortless you assume it will be to find another chick when the current seduction dies, well by then its 2am and the bar has cleared out. lol

In a logical world, girls would be linear in handling approaches. If ten guys approached her that night, logically she will reliably pick the best 1 out of 10.

But she is not logical. Her head is up, she is looking at body language around the room and observing who is kicked back and has other girls around him. She might reject ten times over because she has seen chicks surrounding the same guy that she is holding out for.

You need to focus more on the appearances more.

Don't ask

"how do I become a high value guy that a bunch of chicks will adore"

Ask

"Ive got one chick into me. Great. How do i get a second one in on it."
"Damn, two are eating it up. How do I get her friends over here."
"Time to bounce. How do i separate this chick from the herd."

Even something simple like

"Everyone in this grocery store looks so monotonous. How can I spice it up."
"That guy just walked past a hot chick without saying shit. I'm gonna get her number."

By the time this has happened, you ARE showing that you are high value, self perception irrelevant. In fact, your perception will respond to your actions eventually.

Post: #13

(01-06-2013 03:27 PM)Ramon Zarate Wrote:  XXL: A more appropriate reaction to an honest man would be to be less confrontational, not more, and so let her guard down a bit. You've already showed her you're for real so why should she still be confrontational? Also not all girls shit test. There exist a lot of anecdotes of men getting laid without having to deal with shit tests, I'm sure it's happened to some of you before as well.

Depends on what you say/do and how you do it. If you tell her she's pretty she'll be cool and calm. If you tell her you want to put baby in her tummy then she might be a little shocked at first. If you want to take her hand and you put out your hand she might take it and it's all good. But when you want to grab her hand and yank her somewhere and you do it then she might freak out at first.


I had instances where I said "I hope you sleep naked, i don't want to see no pyjama or anything like that, you're too cute to cover yourself" and the girl was like "really? mmm.." giving me those happy eyes, but other times i got "WTF? you can't say that asshole! you're not getting anything tonight.."


I guess by honest I meant raw act or statement of intent like "Um.. could you repeat what you just said? I was busy thinking what I want to do with you later" or "How old are you? I hope you're at least 22, younger girls can't fuck that well". That is very likely to elicit some unpredictable reaction he he and that's when shitttests come. I personally like to sya shit like that sporadically cause when I see that emotional reaction I know I got her where I want and then when I stand by it 100% without flinching I get her wet for me fast.


Girls don't shittest you when you kind of click with each other fast so you can keep it very chill and almost lazy. Then things just magically happen. Damn it's so sweat to experience that.. talk talk talk, leave, talk talk talk, sex. Interactions like that are too good.

Post: #14

(01-06-2013 04:32 PM)XXL Wrote:  Girls don't shittest you when you kind of click with each other fast so you can keep it very chill and almost lazy. Then things just magically happen. Damn it's so sweat to experience that.. talk talk talk, leave, talk talk talk, sex. Interactions like that are too good.

Sounds like you are describing being in the zone.

The words that I say when I'm in the zone are different than yours, but there might be a similar principle in there. I feel like I'm just letting things click, but adding some spice, and being honest is at the core of it. Without that core, the whole transaction wouldn't even be in the zone.

Post: #15

Quote:Samseau: I don't agree with this. Sure, women have a much greater tendency to be consensus-oriented than men, but that doesnt mean they're ALL the same. I'd only have to find one woman that differs from the rest to disprove your argument.

Yes and no. Women aren't all the same, but they vary in terms of degrees, not type. If you want a different type, you need a different culture. In America, I meet a wide range of girls, but they are always American.

Post: #16

(01-06-2013 07:52 PM)xsplat Wrote:  

(01-06-2013 04:32 PM)XXL Wrote:  Girls don't shittest you when you kind of click with each other fast so you can keep it very chill and almost lazy. Then things just magically happen. Damn it's so sweat to experience that.. talk talk talk, leave, talk talk talk, sex. Interactions like that are too good.

Sounds like you are describing being in the zone.

The words that I say when I'm in the zone are different than yours, but there might be a similar principle in there. I feel like I'm just letting things click, but adding some spice, and being honest is at the core of it. Without that core, the whole transaction wouldn't even be in the zone.

By "clicking" I meant instant chemistry where you feel it's on and just have to spend some time with the girl, barely do anything and leave together. You can be on fire or not.

I had few of those when I was very tired and in not social mood at all. Typical scenario. We meet in almost empty bar. Opener: what are you doing here? Normal convo almost like you both talk to yourselves barely glancing at each other. No touching. Me: I like those couches upstairs they're very cozy. Her: really? let's go there. Go, sit, talk talk talk, little kiss, hug, talk talk talk. We leave. Totally lazy, the gayest most unimpressive interactions ever. But when it clicks like that early on the whole thing is just sex waiting to happen.

Post: #17

I dont' see what there is to "get" about the abundance mentality.


It's a fact that there are tons of women, and in terms of pure numbers, a whole hell of a lot of hot women on this planet. You can get them one way or another.

Post: #18

Honesty? lol that'll work

Post: #19

I am honest about being dishonest.

The truth is too much for women to handle.

They prefer a fantasy.

Shit, most men can't handle the truth.

But, I still agree with the OP and I like this this thread a lot.

Don't be fake in the name of pussy. Be real in the name of pussy.

Post: #20

(07-24-2013 03:05 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  I am honest about being dishonest.

The truth is too much for women to handle.

They prefer a fantasy.

Shit, most men can't handle the truth.

But, I still agree with the OP and I like this this thread a lot.

Don't be fake in the name of pussy. Be real in the name of pussy.

I prefer to be honest (hard to remember a bunch of lies anway), but try not to lose the air of mystery. The best is when girls aren't really quite sure what to think of you and you can keep them guessing. Being honest doesn't mean you have to be an open book or answer all questions.

Post: #21

The impression from the first post that I am getting is that using game somehow involves deceit, and I just fail to see any deceit. I don't see how I am dishonest with women by approaching, teasing and ruthlessly judging them for the things that I like on women. Dishonesty would be things like explicitly lying to a woman about how long you're staying in a country, or saying that you want to marry her just to get the bang, and so on.

Post: #22

A lot of this stuff is inherently hard to define.

Like "abundance mentality"...

Take a guy who never learned any game and figured things out from an early age and his internal representation of "abundance mentality" is going to be very different from an awkward 20 year old virgin who reads some game literature and tries to take the concept and apply it to his life from the outside-in.

He has no reference and no context. It's just an idea to him. An idea he'll more than likely use to mentally torture himself because he "gets it" intellectually but doesn't FEEL abundance viscerally.

Not only that, he'll be searching for abundance. Craving it. Waiting for the day that it finally graces him. "Do I have it yet?" ...and act out of proportion and overcompensate because he THINKS he needs an "abundance mentality" or to be "more alpha" or to be "less beta" or whatever it is.

So we could have these conversations about objectively impossible-to-define terminology but it guarantess we're all talking about different things.

So Ramon, I think you ARE on to something. Because when you say "honesty" and "doing what you want", it's always going to be internally consistent even though every individual's sense of it is different. So it's a principle oriented approach. You can add techniques and stuff later but there will be a foundation that supports whatever you build on top of it.

Post: #23

I hope you are not talking about stupid honesty?

eg you are selling a car. since you've been driving everyday, you know all the small problems it has. you tell the person everything about it. he will appreciate your Honesty and tell you 'let me talk to my wife' you know what that answer means?

Do you feel guilty of talking like a sales person when approaching woman? You might feel better if you cut all that crap and just be Honest with that person. Watch how your results drop. I am not talking about being deceitful. there are things you don't have to say. you need to understand how to talk to them.

Please define Honest.
I am pretty sure you really are not honest person.

Post: #24

honest aka owning the fact that you're attracted. not "i will you everything about me, just ask" honesty.