Post: #1

Is it even worth contributing to a 401K, IRA, or ROTH IRA? Should saving money beyond an emergency fund be a priority in a single man's life?

You're told from a young age to plan for retirement. Sacrifice now so you can live in comfort in your old age, we're told. What's so appealing about comfort when your body is broken down? And, in turn, what's appealing about frugality when you're young and all of life is there to explore?

Where did the idea come from that we must amass a life savings?

Post: #2

This is the siren song of almost everyone on this forum.

Post: #3

Well I suppose one option would be to do what most people have done since the dawn of time, have kids.

Post: #4

Which is more miserable, a less-than-extravagant youth or a destitute old age?

Post: #5

It's like being in the middle of the Human Centipad and being asked whether they'd prefer the cuttlefish and asparagus or the vanilla paste.

In the end, it's still shit.

Yeah, I made a south park reference.

Post: #6

Where I live in Eastern Europe most old folks have really shitty retirement money. Barely enough to pay the bills and eat, sometimes not enough, most old people cannot afford all the medicine they need. Why?

Because after the fall of soviet union the taxes they paid before didn't count as they were paid to a country that doesn't exist anymore. So all the work they did in Soviet times does not count and those people who retired short after it's fall are receiving money as if they had worked and paid taxes only for a few years of they life

I am not sure that when retirement becomes an option for me after some 30 - 40 years my country will exist. In these times of decline I wouldn't even be sure that USA will exist after that time. Well something will exist in it's place but will it be the same country?

So naturally I don't trust retirement plans.

Also when you are so old that you cannot work you also won't be able to enjoy all the benefits of your endless leasure.

Naturally the mans best investment for future would be children who would support him in his old age. But alas modern lifestyle makes children so expensive and risky (because women can take them away) that it is not so simple any more.

Therefore two most useful things to do are:

1. Save for your future

2. Do not overwork yourself at expense of health and train the body to keep your fitness high enough to slow aging and to be able to keep enjoying life (and keep working if necessary) as long as possible.

Post: #7

(02-18-2013 03:16 AM)cool Wrote:  Is it even worth contributing to a 401K, IRA, or ROTH IRA? Should saving money beyond an emergency fund be a priority in a single man's life?

You're told from a young age to plan for retirement. Sacrifice now so you can live in comfort in your old age, we're told. What's so appealing about comfort when your body is broken down? And, in turn, what's appealing about frugality when you're young and all of life is there to explore?

Where did the idea come from that we must amass a life savings?

Well, I suppose the point is to avoid compounding the miseries of old age by adding the miseries of poverty. And it is a common hamsterization to think that exploring life=being unemployed or engaging in frivolous spending.

Post: #8

(02-18-2013 05:34 AM)Lemmo Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 03:16 AM)cool Wrote:  Is it even worth contributing to a 401K, IRA, or ROTH IRA? Should saving money beyond an emergency fund be a priority in a single man's life?

You're told from a young age to plan for retirement. Sacrifice now so you can live in comfort in your old age, we're told. What's so appealing about comfort when your body is broken down? And, in turn, what's appealing about frugality when you're young and all of life is there to explore?

Where did the idea come from that we must amass a life savings?

Well, I suppose the point is to avoid compounding the miseries of old age by adding the miseries of poverty. And it is a common hamsterization to think that exploring life=being unemployed or engaging in frivolous spending.

Ya. To be fair, common financial advice = save 10% of your income. That's not a huge or unreasonable amount. If everyone actually did that, every year they earned, they would have enough to live on for 20-30 years past retirement.

Thing is, people don't. Most people are in debt...

Post: #9

There's no reason you shouldn't be able to retire someday.

Read this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/145360121X?tag=...eme.com%2F

Or start at his blog: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/

Even if you rejected that guy's extreme philosophy and saved half as much twice or three times as long, it would work. If you worked a solid job in the oil fields for 5 years, you could probably do it in less.

In any case, a valuable paradigm-shifting read.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #10

Thanks for the book recommendation. That's next on my list.

Post: #11

Great recommendations BB! Another good option IMO would be to save as much as you possibly can by working in a high income field (the oil fields would be an excellent example) and then, once you have some capital, move to a country with a lower cost of living where your $$$ goes a lot further. Say for example, Thailand or the Philippines. Single and no one to take care of you? Not to worry, it's quite easy to find a good woman, about half if not 1/3 of your age to not only pamper to your needs but also to be your live in kind of maid, to take care of you.

(02-19-2013 02:39 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  Thanks for the book recommendation. That's next on my list.

Post: #12

(02-19-2013 07:11 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  Great recommendations BB! Another good option IMO would be to save as much as you possibly can by working in a high income field (the oil fields would be an excellent example) and then, once you have some capital, move to a country with a lower cost of living where your $$$ goes a lot further. Say for example, Thailand or the Philippines. Single and no one to take care of you? Not to worry, it's quite easy to find a good woman, about half if not 1/3 of your age to not only pamper to your needs but also to be your live in kind of maid, to take care of you.

(02-19-2013 02:39 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  Thanks for the book recommendation. That's next on my list.

Not a bad plan.

There is a sergeant major here in Korea that married a filipina and had kids and is going to retire there.

Post: #13

Conventional retirement is retarded.

Basically anyone who has been in the game for a decent amount of time knows their looks are 40x more powerful than their money. So you want to maximize your looks and the worst thing your body can do is be under high stress (worried about bills, unhealthy diet etc).

So what's the solution? Grind out your twenties stacking fast and then when your body is weakening in your 30's you slow it all down and reap rewards, because a guy isn't all that attractive till he's in his 30's anyway. Just do the minimum to keep your sex life up to par in your 20's.

That's basically the blueprint I live by. Also what Vancier is saying, you just leave to a lower cost of living place in the future. If you can bang chicks in the USA off a simple apartment, by leaving that apartment becomes a "nice apartment" and all your expenses come down while quality goes up because you're not living in NYC/other major anymore.

Post: #14

retirement in the US or a first world country with you spending lots of money can require millions of dollars so unless you strike it rich that is hard to do.

however in many parts of the world you can live comfortably on 1500 or less a month including rent. in these countries health care is far less and if you need live in help it would cost a fraction of what it cost in first world countries.

many retirement types recommend the 4% rule so if you spend 18000 a year that would require 450000 dollars. which really is quite doable especially if you start early. if you work an average job that pays 50k and save half of your income, with no interest on your money you are there in 20 years. it would also take far less time or you would have far more money if you invested in any number of investment options (stocks,real estate etc)

the only catch of course is unexpected things like marriage, children etc which can throw unexpected costs into your retirement plans.

i enjoyed reading earlyretirementextreme but also like

http://jlcollinsnh.wordpress.com/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/
http://retireby40.org/
http://renewablewealth.com/

Post: #15

(02-19-2013 12:11 PM)bacon Wrote:  retirement in the US or a first world country with you spending lots of money can require millions of dollars so unless you strike it rich that is hard to do.

however in many parts of the world you can live comfortably on 1500 or less a month including rent. in these countries health care is far less and if you need live in help it would cost a fraction of what it cost in first world countries.

I have found it cheaper to live in the US if you wanted a western lifestyle.

A lot of guys will move to a 3rd world country and try to live an equivalent life but it doesn't work out well. Normally, it costs 2 to 3 times more for the same lifestyle.

If you can live like the locals, you can live cheaper in those countries. Most can't live like the locals, especially when you get up to retirement age.

Post: #16

Our modern idea of retirement is a total historical anomaly. It has only existed for a few decades. Through history, most people never retired. They worked until they were physically unable to continue working, then they moved in with their children and made themselves as useful as possible around the house until they died.

The idea of slowly accumulating and investing money over a 30-40 year period and then living off the interest/dividends is not a bad one, it's just not as foolproof as people think. It makes a lot of assumptions which don't always happen in the real world. The main thing is that it requires a great deal of financial and market stability, and relatively low inflation. That has been the environment for the past few decades, but the future looks much more uncertain.

You could work for 30 years, living frugally and investing your money carefully, only to have your entire nest egg wiped out by hyperinflation or a market collapse. You would have lived your entire life for a day that would never come. The emotional toll that would take would be devastating. Many men have killed themselves when faced with that kind of spectacular loss.

I think it's important to remember that life is lived one day at a time, and that day is always today. Don't become so focused on a future that may never arrive that you fail to enjoy the present, because ultimately that's all you will ever have.

Post: #17

(02-19-2013 12:47 PM)scorpion Wrote:  Our modern idea of retirement is a total historical anomaly. It has only existed for a few decades. Through history, most people never retired. They worked until they were physically unable to continue working, then they moved in with their children and made themselves as useful as possible around the house until they died.

The idea of slowly accumulating and investing money over a 30-40 year period and then living off the interest/dividends is not a bad one, it's just not as foolproof as people think. It makes a lot of assumptions which don't always happen in the real world. The main thing is that it requires a great deal of financial and market stability, and relatively low inflation. That has been the environment for the past few decades, but the future looks much more uncertain.

You could work for 30 years, living frugally and investing your money carefully, only to have your entire nest egg wiped out by hyperinflation or a market collapse. You would have lived your entire life for a day that would never come. The emotional toll that would take would be devastating. Many men have killed themselves when faced with that kind of spectacular loss.

I think it's important to remember that life is lived one day at a time, and that day is always today. Don't become so focused on a future that may never arrive that you fail to enjoy the present, because ultimately that's all you will ever have.

THAT is pretty eye-opening. And exactly the kind of thing no one ever talks about. You're totally right though.

Post: #18

I have it decided. When I get older and reach all my goals and do everything that I want in life, I'll resubscribe to World of Warcraft.

Because why the hell not.

Post: #19

I'll be one of those wise old fishermen on a tropical isle. One that does psychedelic drugs all day.

Post: #20

the biggest expense at least in the US for the elderly is medical costs. it seems like common sense but rather than having to save hundreds of thousands for future medical expenses just eat healthy and exercise frequently and your healthcare would go down significantly.

Post: #21

(02-19-2013 12:47 PM)scorpion Wrote:  Our modern idea of retirement is a total historical anomaly. It has only existed for a few decades. Through history, most people never retired. They worked until they were physically unable to continue working, then they moved in with their children and made themselves as useful as possible around the house until they died.

The idea of slowly accumulating and investing money over a 30-40 year period and then living off the interest/dividends is not a bad one, it's just not as foolproof as people think. It makes a lot of assumptions which don't always happen in the real world. The main thing is that it requires a great deal of financial and market stability, and relatively low inflation. That has been the environment for the past few decades, but the future looks much more uncertain.

You could work for 30 years, living frugally and investing your money carefully, only to have your entire nest egg wiped out by hyperinflation or a market collapse. You would have lived your entire life for a day that would never come. The emotional toll that would take would be devastating. Many men have killed themselves when faced with that kind of spectacular loss.

I think it's important to remember that life is lived one day at a time, and that day is always today. Don't become so focused on a future that may never arrive that you fail to enjoy the present, because ultimately that's all you will ever have.

I met an American in Medellin who fit this type. He worked as an engineer in Silicon Valley and lived frugally saving a great percentage of his take home pay each month. Then in 2008, after he had essentially retired, the stock market crashed and he lost something like 50% of his nest egg. I think he worked like a donkey all through his 20s and 30s with this dream of living off his investments as an expat.

It seemed like he sacrificed a lot pursuing this dream of financial freedom in later years. That would be quite a bitter pill to realize your dream and then lose it.

Post: #22

(02-20-2013 06:28 AM)cool Wrote:  

(02-19-2013 12:47 PM)scorpion Wrote:  Our modern idea of retirement is a total historical anomaly. It has only existed for a few decades. Through history, most people never retired. They worked until they were physically unable to continue working, then they moved in with their children and made themselves as useful as possible around the house until they died.

The idea of slowly accumulating and investing money over a 30-40 year period and then living off the interest/dividends is not a bad one, it's just not as foolproof as people think. It makes a lot of assumptions which don't always happen in the real world. The main thing is that it requires a great deal of financial and market stability, and relatively low inflation. That has been the environment for the past few decades, but the future looks much more uncertain.

You could work for 30 years, living frugally and investing your money carefully, only to have your entire nest egg wiped out by hyperinflation or a market collapse. You would have lived your entire life for a day that would never come. The emotional toll that would take would be devastating. Many men have killed themselves when faced with that kind of spectacular loss.

I think it's important to remember that life is lived one day at a time, and that day is always today. Don't become so focused on a future that may never arrive that you fail to enjoy the present, because ultimately that's all you will ever have.

I met an American in Medellin who fit this type. He worked as an engineer in Silicon Valley and lived frugally saving a great percentage of his take home pay each month. Then in 2008, after he had essentially retired, the stock market crashed and he lost something like 50% of his nest egg. I think he worked like a donkey all through his 20s and 30s with this dream of living off his investments as an expat.

It seemed like he sacrificed a lot pursuing this dream of financial freedom in later years. That would be quite a bitter pill to realize your dream and then lose it.

And now, 4 years later, his stocks should be right back where they left off, assuming he wasn't a dumbass and sold off at the bottom...

Post: #23

Don't worry about not being able to retire at 65 or whatever.

Enjoy your life now, spend all you fucking money you have!!!. If you want to retire at 65 then move to a country where you can buy a house for $50k, then live off the land

I'm going to enjoy myself now while I have an operational penis thank you very much

Post: #24

There is some seriously shitty advice on this thread.

Everyone should re-read nmmooreland's comment three times.

In your twenties and low thirties you are so amped up on energy you can both make money and have a solid sex life.

Hyperinflation is a zero issue. A 50% cut in the equities market is a zero issue. A 50% cut in the bond market is also a... Zero issue. The absurdity of fear in investing is insane, these hyperbolic beliefs pretty much mean the following: "businesses are doomed to fail over the next 50 years". The examples are shit because if you saved up a mad stack, you can wait out the 50% decline so those examples are straight awful. If you were "in between" you're fucked because you can't wait it out and tap into principal heavily.

Most of the fear comes from people who are paying interest on shit from credit cards to house payments... That's exactly why you shouldn't worry about a thing. A cash based country is really where you see a complete disaster (Argentina).

If the S&P gets cut by 70% and stays there for 10 years, I'll see all of you at the gun shop because you're not going to be worried about getting your dick wet any time soon.

Post: #25

(02-20-2013 06:59 AM)nmmoooreland20 Wrote:  And now, 4 years later, his stocks should be right back where they left off, assuming he wasn't a dumbass and sold off at the bottom...

What exactly should the retirees do during that 4 years waiting for their stocks to rebound? Work at Walmart?