Post: #201

Holy Shit!

Post: #202

Quote:1 MVP 'nuff said

I think MVP's are mostly irrelevant in a discussion of all time greats. It is voted on by the media, so its not an accurate indicator of who is the best. Too many subjective factors. It's often a popularity contest.

Steve Nash has 2 MVPs. Is he better then Kobe? I don't think so. Nash could not even get his team to the Finals.

Most guys who win the MVP also win championships. Nash has 2 MVPs and has never been to the Finals.

The first time he won it (2004-2005), the Spurs went on the win the championship. Was Nash really better then Shaq, Duncan, or even Tony Parker that year. I don't think so. I think the media was just sick of giving the award to Shaq and Duncan

The 2nd time Nash won it, the Heat won the championship. Was Nash better then Shaq, Kobe, or even Dwayne Wade that year. I don't think so.

Karl Malone won the MVP one year and then Micheal Jordan and the bulls won the championship. Was Karl better then Micheal that year? Of course not, the media just wanted to give it to someone else just so Micheal didn't win it every year.

Nash has more MVPs then Kobe but I feel Kobe is a better player. Just my opinion.

Ironically, I think Steve Nash is the most beautiful player to ever play to game. Meaning his style of play and the way in which he played was the most visually and artistically pleasing. Stephen Curry is also like this. Beautiful to watch but not necessarily the best.

(04-14-2013 08:34 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  @Gio: I am switching Magic with Wilt from 3 to 2.

I would have no argument with that. On any given night, Magic could be just as good or better then Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, etc.

I personally value great 7 footers over great 6'9 guys but Magic is right there with anyone who has ever played. It's very close.

Just curious, where would you rank the following guys?

Oscar Robertson?
Dr. J?
Shaq?
Duncan?
Lebron?
Isiah Thomas?
Stockton?

Just give me a ball park figure like 5-10, 10-15, 15-20, etc.

Thanks

*****

Dwight Howards health and stamina is the reason the Lakers won last night.

That, and Steve Blake had a great game. Jamison hit some shots too.

And Ron Artest returned from knee surgery after 12 DAYS! Think about that. 12 days! He is a freak of nature.

Can't wait for that Lakers-Rockets game on Wednesday. Thats a playoff game!

Post: #203

(04-15-2013 06:20 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(04-14-2013 08:34 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  @Gio: I am switching Magic with Wilt from 3 to 2.

I would have no argument with that. On any given night, Magic could be just as good or better then Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, etc.

I personally value great 7 footers over great 6'9 guys but Magic is right there with anyone who has ever played. It's very close.

Just curious, where would you rank the following guys?

Oscar Robertson?
Dr. J?
Shaq?
Duncan?
Lebron?
Isiah Thomas?
Stockton?

Just give me a ball park figure like 5-10, 10-15, 15-20, etc.

Hmm....let's see.

I would put Oscar, Shaq, and Duncan somewhere from 5-10.
Dr J definitely 10-15
Isiah Thomas 15-20

I am not sure where to put Stockton. On one hand, he's probably one of the best 5 PGs ever, most assists (which will never be broken). The no championship thing really hurts him, so I would put him somewhere 20-25 or even 25-30.

With LeBron, I still don't put him in top 10 of all time not because he doesn't deserve to be there but the guy just turned 28 and is in his prime. I am sure by the time he finishes he will be top 10 or top 5 of all time or dare I even say top 3. Who knows? At the moment, if he retires with his current laurels, 1 title and 3 MVPs, he will stay 10-15.

Where would you rank these players?


Btw, what are your thoughts on the LAL-GSW game officiating wise? We both agreed that the NBA isn't fixed but that game was simply horrible to watch. The "foul" on which Kobe went down or the "foul" for which Dwight screened Steph Curry and Steve Blake got 2 FTs when he wasn't even touched. I know there will always be a human factor to refereeing and it will never be perfect. But 50-16 FTs disparity is too much after both the teams were taking similar shots. I even posted the shot chart for both the teams from the game in my last post.

Post: #204

(04-15-2013 06:34 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  I would put Oscar, Shaq, and Duncan somewhere from 5-10.

Agreed.

(04-15-2013 06:34 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Dr J definitely 10-15

Agreed.

(04-15-2013 06:34 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Isiah Thomas 15-20

Agreed. If he was 6'6 or taller, he would be top 10, in my opinion.

(04-15-2013 06:34 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Stockton... I would put him somewhere 20-25 or even 25-30.

Agreed. If he was bigger he could have done more.

(04-15-2013 06:34 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  LeBron... I am sure by the time he finishes he will be top 10 or top 5 of all time or dare I even say top 3. Who knows?

Maybe its too early to say..?

We'll see how high he can go?

I think he is top 15 right now and climbing fast.

These playoffs will be big for him.

(04-15-2013 06:34 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Btw, what are your thoughts on the LAL-GSW game officiating wise?

It was a HORRIBLY officiated game. One ref in particular was really bad. The shorter black guy.

The play Kobe got hurt on, he wasn't touched, but, superstars get the benefit of the doubt. Bad call, but I understand.

The Dwight Howard-Stef Curry screen was a joke and a mistake.

Poorly officiated game. They made some mistakes.

There was also a huge mistake in the NCAA national championship game. The Burke block on Siva late in the game. That was a big mistake. Momentum changer.

Refs have bad nights too. They are human. Its sucks but its a reality of the game.

Alot of refs kiss Kobes ass because they want Kobe to like them. They are human.

*****

I have been talking alot about Magic in this thread.
/thread-22421-...#pid422175

As well as a little bit about Stockton and Isaiah Thomas..

I admitted that I would take Lebron over Magic at the point guard. I explained why..

I rank Magic higher on my list of all time greats but this is a little different. This is just who would you take as your point guard.

Post: #205

No way would I put Wilt at 2 or 3. If he played in the league these days, he wouldn't put up close to the numbers he did back then.

Post: #206

(04-16-2013 06:13 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  No way would I put Wilt at 2 or 3. If he played in the league these days, he wouldn't put up close to the numbers he did back then.

Where do you rank Wilt???

Post: #207

(04-16-2013 06:16 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 06:13 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  No way would I put Wilt at 2 or 3. If he played in the league these days, he wouldn't put up close to the numbers he did back then.

Where do you rank Wilt???

I'm not saying he's bad, just not 2 or 3. He would maybe be top 10 or 15 on my list. But you have to acknowledge, he wouldn't have put up those number if he played now a days. He was so much taller than everyone back then.

Post: #208

(04-15-2013 06:20 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Quote:1 MVP 'nuff said

I think MVP's are mostly irrelevant in a discussion of all time greats. It is voted on by the media, so its not an accurate indicator of who is the best. Too many subjective factors. It's often a popularity contest.

Steve Nash has 2 MVPs. Is he better then Kobe? I don't think so. Nash could not even get his team to the Finals.

Most guys who win the MVP also win championships. Nash has 2 MVPs and has never been to the Finals.

The first time he won it (2004-2005), the Spurs went on the win the championship. Was Nash really better then Shaq, Duncan, or even Tony Parker that year. I don't think so. I think the media was just sick of giving the award to Shaq and Duncan

The 2nd time Nash won it, the Heat won the championship. Was Nash better then Shaq, Kobe, or even Dwayne Wade that year. I don't think so.

Karl Malone won the MVP one year and then Micheal Jordan and the bulls won the championship. Was Karl better then Micheal that year? Of course not, the media just wanted to give it to someone else just so Micheal didn't win it every year.

Nash has more MVPs then Kobe but I feel Kobe is a better player. Just my opinion.

Ironically, I think Steve Nash is the most beautiful player to ever play to game. Meaning his style of play and the way in which he played was the most visually and artistically pleasing. Stephen Curry is also like this. Beautiful to watch but not necessarily the best.

I disagree, first of we are discussing whether Kobe is top 5. Now lets look at 5 players that are commonly named as the top 5 greatest in NBA(this is not a hard and fast list just an example) history.

1. MJ 5 MVPs
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar 6 MVPs
3. Larry Bird 3 MVPs
4. Wilt Chamberlain 4 MVPs
5. Magic Johnson 3 MVPs
   

So we've established a common denominator of AT LEAST 3 MVPs for what is commonly known as the 5 most reverred players in NBA history. Now lets define MVP. Some define it as the player on the best team, while some just say the most valuable(in terms of impact or team record) THAT year, not necessarily the best outright player. So by that logic Kobe was only seen to fit that criteria just once, while his counterparts in the top 5 have won it numerous times over each. Not sure how he belongs in that tier we he falls way short of the mark with that crew I named.

Mind you everything in sports debates is subjective except of course facts and stats. Of course Karl was never better than Jordan but thats not what the award is about as I just explained. MJ hardly would've won the MVP every year anyway considering he played for 15 years and had 5 MVPs that leaves 10 years for other candidates. Sportwriters shape many peoples opinions about how they feel about certain players so they are hardly irrelevant. We don't know who votes for the NBA Hall of Fame, but in the MLB, NFL, AND NHL sportswriters and media personalities are all apart of the selection process for who gets in, so whether you like it or not writers and media personlities have a ton influence in the world of sports.

As to your last point you will be hard pressed to find anybody that thought Nash was a better player in any year compared to Kobe, but again thats not what the MVP is necessarily measuring. He might not even be a top 5 PG. At the end of the day, its not just lack of MVPs that make me say Kobe is not in the top 5, but it is a reason worth considering strongly considering his competition.

Post: #209

You're out if your mind if you don't consider Kobe top 5

Post: #210

(04-16-2013 06:29 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 06:16 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 06:13 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  No way would I put Wilt at 2 or 3. If he played in the league these days, he wouldn't put up close to the numbers he did back then.

Where do you rank Wilt???

I'm not saying he's bad, just not 2 or 3. He would maybe be top 10 or 15 on my list. But you have to acknowledge, he wouldn't have put up those number if he played now a days. He was so much taller than everyone back then.

Actually when Wilt played the NBA Center position featured a ton of players his height. Heres a list(some HOFers and all starts on that list as well):
Walter Dukes (7'0", 220 lbs.)
Swede Halbrook (7'3, 235 lbs.)
Tom Boerwinkle (7'0", 265 lbs.)
Bob Lanier (6'11", 265 lbs.)
Darrall Imhoff (6'10", 220 lbs.)
Otto Moore (6'11", 210 lbs.)
Sam Lacey (6'10", 235 lbs.)
George Johnson (6'11", 245 lbs.)
Paul Ruffner (6'10", 230 lbs.)
Dick Cunningham (6'10", 245 lbs.)
Walt Bellamy (6'11", 225 lbs.)
Leroy Ellis (6'10", 210 lbs.)
Nate Thurmond (6'11", 235 lbs.)
Mel Counts (7'0", 235 lbs.)
Nate Bowman (6'10", 230 lbs.)
Clyde Lee (6'10", 210 lbs.)
Walt Wesley (6'11", 230 lbs.)
Henry Akin (6'10", 225 lbs.)
Hank Finkel (7'0", 240 lbs.)
Lew Alcindor aka Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (7'2", 225 lbs.)
Neal Walk (6'10", 220 lbs.)
Elmore Smith (7'0", 250 lbs.)
Jim McDaniels (6'11", 230 lbs.)
LaRue Martin (6'11", 215 lbs.)
Tom Riker (6'10", 225 lbs.)

He was just a ridiculous athlete for his time easily winning track and field competitions in college. NBA Centers suck way more now than they ever did in terms of pure skill level, so Wilt would definitely be eating good against todays competition. As for the numbers argument, the game was much faster back then so no he wouldn't have put up the same numbers, however its fair to say he would be very successful.

Post: #211

(04-16-2013 07:00 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  You're out if your mind if you don't consider Kobe top 5

All time? No way. Now? Of course. I already explained why on the previous page, but feel free to refute me with some evidence, I'm always down to be enlightened.

Post: #212

Yeah but those dudes as tall as wilt wouldn't be able to hold their own against Dwight Howard or kd or Tim Duncan

Post: #213

(04-16-2013 07:12 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Yeah but those dudes as tall as wilt wouldn't be able to hold their own against Dwight Howard or kd or Tim Duncan

Very few can today or back then,thats why KD, Duncan, and Howard are elite players. They can't be guarded in any era, period.

Post: #214

(04-16-2013 07:06 PM)iWin Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 07:00 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  You're out if your mind if you don't consider Kobe top 5

All time? No way. Now? Of course. I already explained why on the previous page, but feel free to refute me with some evidence, I'm always down to be enlightened.

Do you have Kobe at least in your all time top 10? I don't have him in my all-time top 5 either but he's definitely in my top 10.

I am using Gio's list to complete my top 5 or as he calls it 1, 2a,2b,2c etc as:

MJ, Magic (I think he put Wilt here though), Kareem, Bill Russell, Bird/Wilt.

Kobe would probably be 6 or 7 on my all time list.

Post: #215

(04-16-2013 07:31 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 07:06 PM)iWin Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 07:00 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  You're out if your mind if you don't consider Kobe top 5

All time? No way. Now? Of course. I already explained why on the previous page, but feel free to refute me with some evidence, I'm always down to be enlightened.

Do you have Kobe at least in your all time top 10? I don't have him in my all-time top 5 either but he's definitely in my top 10.

I am using Gio's list to complete my top 5 or as he calls it 1, 2a,2b,2c etc as:

MJ, Magic (I think he put Wilt here though), Kareem, Bill Russell, Bird/Wilt.

Kobe would probably be 6 or 7 on my all time list.

I agree he's top ten, I'd probably have him around 8, but top 10 for sure.

Post: #216

(04-16-2013 07:19 PM)iWin Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 07:12 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Yeah but those dudes as tall as wilt wouldn't be able to hold their own against Dwight Howard or kd or Tim Duncan

Very few can today or back then,thats why KD, Duncan, and Howard are elite players. They can't be guarded in any era, period.

You're right, but Wilt didn't have that kind of competition back then, that's what I'm trying to get at. At least not at his size. If he was playing with these guys he wouldn't have those numbers. Do you honestly think he would average a season with 50 pts. if he was playing against these guys? I say no way.

Post: #217

Heading to both home games for bucks vs heat. Am going to make fun of insecure heat bandwagon douchebags

Post: #218

(04-16-2013 08:02 PM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  Heading to both home games for bucks vs heat. Am going to make fun of insecure heat bandwagon douchebags

haha...that always happen with the best teams/players though. There are many arenas where Kobe/Lakers, LeBron/Miami (at least this year after winning it all), and even KD/OKC get cheered. So many teams have complained about it. I believe Indiana was the latest one to complain about Lakers.

By the way what do you think of the Miami-Milwaukee match-up? I think it was Jennings or Ellis who said they "preferred" the Heat and I thought they could make it a 5 game, maybe (unlikely though) a 6 game series. But the Bucks have tapered off in the last month or so. I am calling for a sweep now.

And wasn't it Ellis who said him and Wade were the same player except for the wins and the two rings? I expect Wade to go off/shut down Ellis.

Post: #219

(04-16-2013 07:40 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 07:19 PM)iWin Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 07:12 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Yeah but those dudes as tall as wilt wouldn't be able to hold their own against Dwight Howard or kd or Tim Duncan

Very few can today or back then,thats why KD, Duncan, and Howard are elite players. They can't be guarded in any era, period.

You're right, but Wilt didn't have that kind of competition back then, that's what I'm trying to get at. At least not at his size. If he was playing with these guys he wouldn't have those numbers. Do you honestly think he would average a season with 50 pts. if he was playing against these guys? I say no way.

I doubt he'd average 50, but like I said the rules were alot different as well as the pace. Back then teams played incredibly fast so alot more shots and rebounds were to be had. Wilt also got the shit beat out of him almost to the point of quitting after his rookie year. Lastly, had the benefit of offensive goaltending with impunity so those were a few factors. I have no doubts that he would destroy the bums on todays league though.

Post: #220

B Jennings running his mouth in the media again. Heat in 4, easy.

Post: #221

Yeah they actually made a few new rules specifically because of wilt. He used to slam dunk for his free throw shots.

Post: #222

(04-11-2013 07:46 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(04-11-2013 07:38 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(04-11-2013 07:36 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  @InternationPlayboy: Kobe is great but I don't know about him being #2 after Jordan. Too many other great players. Only time will tell.

Who would be #2 then?

I don't know. I don't have a fixed top 5 or top 10 of all time. But I can tell that Kobe wouldn't be #2 of all time.

In no order, players I generally think of as top 10: MJ, Magic, Bill Russell, Larry, Kareem, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Jerry West, and Shaq.

If LeBron wins another title or two he will go right on that list (will be difficult to see who gets bumped off)

But I will say I am sure most people wouldn't place Kobe right at #2.

Why is Oscar Robertson off this list? Jerry West or the Big O?

I'd take Oscar any day of the week for this reason. After he left, the Bucks fell from a Finals loser to the Celtics, to last place in their division WITH Lew Alcinder.

Post: #223

(04-13-2013 12:55 AM)2Wycked Wrote:  

(04-13-2013 12:50 AM)iWin Wrote:  Yikes Kobe assumed to have torn achilles, talk about bad timing.

Not just this season, but what about next? I can't imagine Dwight resigning if Kobe misses a season - or most of one season - and makes a comeback at 35.

Even if he is ready to come back to start season, would he be back to old Kobe? Suggs ruptured his Achilles and came back after 5 months - but he was far from old self.

I think Kobe's injury was preventable, but inevitable.

If you watched the game, Kobe was running on fumes at the time of injury. He had already gone down twice in the second half, banged knee, turned ankle. You get hurt when you're tired.

Inevitable because Kobe was just being Kobe. Who is going to tell him to rest in do or die games like that? Not happening if anyone not named Phil is coaching him.

Post: #224

I'm moving the "Magic Johnson is overrated" argument here from the "Magic Johnson has a gay son and is also a gay person" thread.

From KDolo:

RE: Magic Johnson Has a Flaming Son
"Magic makes me sick to my stomach. He's a top shelf attention whore and a glory hog. Billed as the "ultimate teammate" that made everyone else better...only because he couldn't shoot (or play defense). If he played anywhere else but L.A., without the extreme talent around him, marketing of Hollywood/LA, and money of Jerry Buss...his career would be on par with the likes of Reggie Miller and John Stockton. i.e., a one skill player."

You sir, know nothing of what you speak...you probably never saw enough of him play

Magic is the best point and arguably the best non center to ever play and arguably the best to ever suit up.

If you are starting a team from scratch and need to pick a player, the first I pick is Magic - especially if you are discounting centers... "

First, please don't discount centers. They are a dominating force in this game. No reason to discount them.

Second, Magic is far from the first player I would pick starting a team from scratch. Remember, his reputation of the "Ultimate Teammate" is largely media spin. You can have slow Magic that can't defend scorers or get his own shot at the end of a game without a sweeping, surprise hook shot. I'll take Michael, LeBron, Isaiah, healthy Bird, or even Shaq.

Post: #225

Calling KDolo...

Furthering the argument that Magic is overrated and a mostly one-dimensional player...playmaker. We've also acknowledged that I don't like Magic's personality, thus creating a slight bias...

Admittedly, I haven't watched Magic play for awhile. 1992 was a long time ago. Game 3 of the 1987 Finals was on Hardwood Classics tonight on NBATV. The Clippers game was a meaningless blowout, so I got to watch on of Magic's best teams play instead. Here's what I saw.

Magic dominates via passing. He gets the ball to people in position to score constantly. Most of the time he uses his size over much smaller guards to do this. Dennis Johnson was guarding him mostly, and gave up 4 inches to him.

Magic can finish on the break really well on his own. He doesn't need to pass to finish the break, he gets a lot of layups.

Magic gets a lot of rebounds by being in the right place at the right time. He is also guarding the slowest, usually weakest player on the opposing team, leaving him room to wander towards the rim to collect boards. When he does this, everyone immediately takes off on the break.

Magic can't shoot worth a damn. It's fugly. The only way he's creating his own shot is if it's a sweeping hook through the lane. When the shot clock runs down and Magic needs to throw it up...look out.

Magic can't really dribble that well head on, unless he's running the break. Basically he backs down the court and spins a lot. It's like a post move all the way down the floor.

Magic can't play any defense. He was screened a couple of times at the top of the key and both times, wasn't quick or athletic enough to get over the screen and help prevent a wide open shot. Magic is a point guard on one side of the floor only. To say he's the best point guard ever is short sighted IMO. Best playmaker...maybe.

James Worthy, Byron Scott, and Older Kareem were all incredible basketball players. Michael Cooper was a shut-down defender. Hell, Michael Thompson was good too. A.C. Green was a great athlete. Magic had a lot of tools to use his one great skill on, which was playmaking.

LeBron does everything Magic does, but can score, defend, rebound, and dominate overall on command. Magic got L.A. LeBron got Cleveland.

One more thing. All of the "Magic's a great teammate" noise is B.S. It's just the Magic playing the role of L.A.'s media darling. The title fits because Magic's one skill, playmaking, happens to appear like it's for the benefit of others. Magic was a selfish star just like any of the others. Pat Riley writes about it in his book too, just like Phil wrote about Kobe. Anyone ever heard of the "Disease of Me?"

Yeah, that's directed primarily at Magic.