Post: #1

I have been practising bodybuilding for 4 years,but i want to start mixing my training with calisthenics.

Do you know if there are sites and info to teach how to start doing the things of the videos below?

I see the resources about calisthenics are a bit scarce

http://calisthenicsdaily.com/perfect-form-pull-up/

Post: #2

I've been chatting with Hannibal and he has some good shit about the subject. Here's some links that have caught my interest for some time now.
The best website about the subject for beginners is -
http://www.alkavadlo.com/

For intermediate and advanced to elite-
http://meckanimal.com/
http://www.beastskills.com
http://www.gymnasticbodies.com ***(this website cannot be recommended highly enough, you can in fact skip everything I have written and just buy a copy of Foundation One so you can spam the gymnastic bodies private forum to get better advice than you can find anywhere, here included. Coach Sommer is basically the world premier in gymnastics.)

And here is a great youtube video to get started slow - just increase the number of sets -


Make sure to check the comments to find steps 2 and 3 once you master the basics.

If you want to get a book, I recommend you read "Convict Conditioning I & II" with a grain of salt (the hype is in there but it's great information anyway) and some articles by Coach Sommers on his website. One thing that is worth mentioning is that calisthenics take some time to notice mass gains though strength gains happen pretty quickly.

If you want to spend no money, just register on the Gymnastic Bodies forum to get the Kilroy template, and in the meantime read everything by Al Kavadlo and Steve Bathurst on Beastskills because they know their shit.

Post: #3

I co-sign everything Hades said, and would also advise you not to take calisthenics and gymnastics based movements lightly. being strong with weights doesn't necessarily transfer to be strong in calisthenics. the biggest difference between the two is that you can get away with a relatively weak midseason when weightlifting. that and flexibility.

Post: #4

I wonder if there are any gyms established solely for this kind of workout. Similar to how you see cross fit gyms popping up all over the place. Maybe this is worth looking into. In literally every video all I see are absolutely jacked guys.

Post: #5

Calisthenics = the small but ripped look. Its just a fancy looking cardio workout. The problem I have with this is the people marketing it advertise getting HOOGE when its the opposite.

I had a big LOL at the 2nd videos caption. There is a 0% chance those dudes got that physique from bodyweight exercises and the guy on the left looks like he has the abs that steroid users have.

Quote:being strong with weights doesn't necessarily transfer to be strong in calisthenics

It doesn't transfer over at all because when you are weight lifting you are doing maybe 30 seconds for your set and then you are taking a 2-5 minute break. Calisthenics is all about muscle endurance. You will not get that much bigger (if at all) with calesthenics.

Post: #6

(05-14-2013 03:54 PM)Jaylow Wrote:  Calisthenics = the small but ripped look. Its just a fancy looking cardio workout. The problem I have with this is the people marketing it advertise getting HOOGE when its the opposite.

I had a big LOL at the 2nd videos caption. There is a 0% chance those dudes got that physique from bodyweight exercises and the guy on the left looks like he has the abs that steroid users have.

Quote:being strong with weights doesn't necessarily transfer to be strong in calisthenics

It doesn't transfer over at all because when you are weight lifting you are doing maybe 30 seconds for your set and then you are taking a 2-5 minute break. Calisthenics is all about muscle endurance. You will not get that much bigger (if at all) with calesthenics.

Jaylow, what exactly is your experience with calisthenics? I don't want to jump to any conclusions before I respond.

Post: #7

So I just watched the tricep video and its pretty laughable.

The first exercise doesn't even use your entire bodyweight. I think 90% of the people on the forums could do this move. Heres a question, how do you progress? Do you just work your way up to 200 of these? Maybe get your calisthenics homey to spoon with you while your doing em?

The next exercise they show is a forward dip which actually emphasizes the chest more, and a straight up and down dip which is more tricep dependent. First of all, the guy is locking out which takes emphasis off of the target muscle and helps damage your joints. Again, unless you bring a belt with weight plates you cannot progress doing this move and therefor you cannot build bigger muscle. Using added weight also defeats the purpose of doing these playground moves in the first place. The proof this is bogus is right in their own videos. Whats going to build more muscle, doing 3x8 rep scheme with a belt and a 45 lbs plate hanging off it or going to the playground and doing 50/100/1000 bodyweight dips?

Doing 20+ of the same move does not build muscle, it builds muscle endurance which gives you that ripped look. There is no problem with this but the videos are talking about building big powerful muscles when these types of exercises do the opposite. Why aren't the dudes in the videos also saying how often they hit the gym?

(05-14-2013 04:11 PM)BLarsen Wrote:  Jaylow, what exactly is your experience with calisthenics? I don't want to jump to any conclusions before I respond.

Feel free to debate me with specific examples like I just provided in this post.

You can also explain to me why guys in the gym are getting bigger doing 3 plate deadlifts instead of doing 1 plate deadlifts for 100 reps.

Post: #8

Jaylow, I am usually onboard with most of your posts but... What the hell are you talking about here man?

They do the opposite of big strong muscles? So they build small weak muscles? Common man.

Body weight exercises build size too bro. You dont need to life weights to get a nice defined chest and arms.

The guy in the video showing the dips was SUGGESTING how you could do them WITHOUT a dip bar.

That being said, I was a little skeptical of the monstrosity of those two guys. But if I did this every day all day I would be jacked for sure. Not like those two monsters but still jacked.

Post: #9

(05-14-2013 04:48 PM)gandt Wrote:  Jaylow, I am usually onboard with most of your posts but... What the hell are you talking about here man?
You dont need to life weights to get a nice defined chest and arms.

The guy in the video showing the dips was SUGGESTING how you could do them WITHOUT a dip bar.

That being said, I was a little skeptical of the monstrosity of those two guys. But if I did this every day all day I would be jacked for sure. Not like those two monsters but still jacked.

You use the word "defined" and "jacked". I agree with you that calisthenics will do this for your muscles. You also burn more calories doing calisthenics than traditional weight lifting which is an added affect to the "defined" and "jacked" look. The word big and powerful, however, should not be used in the same sentence as calisthenics in any way shape or form.

These dudes are going to the gym and lifting heavy ass weights AND doing calisthenics and then going on youtube and implying that calisthenics gave them their physique. Its dishonest and completely inaccurate.

Quote:They do the opposite of big strong muscles? So they build small weak muscles? Common man.

Body weight exercises build size too bro.

They dont build muscle at all once you can do somewhere between 15-25 reps using only your bodyweight. If you start out only being able to do 1 dip and work your way up to 20 you will build muscle but you will not build any bigger muscles working your way up from 20 to 1000 reps and your muscles will actually in all likely hood get smaller doing really high reps.

Post: #10

hey Jaylow, I'm not interested in debating you, I just detected a very condescending and disrespectful tone in your first post that you confirmed in your second.

I'm not a calisthenics evangelist, but you are saying silly things.

I've read some of your posts so I know you're no newbie.

it basically comes down to goals. if you want to look like a bodybuilder, do bodybuilder exercises. a powerlifter? powerlifter exercises. calisthenics give you a gymnast type look.

saying that calisthenics don't build muscle is incorrect and uninformed.

Post: #11

Quote:it basically comes down to goals. if you want to look like a bodybuilder, do bodybuilder exercises. a powerlifter? powerlifter exercises. calisthenics give you a gymnast type look.

Cool. I 100% agree with you. I guess it just comes down to wording here and what we are interpreting the visual of the word to mean. When someone says building muscle I assume they mean getting bigger. If you use the phrase building muscle and mean getting more lean and ripped looking then its just a redundant debate on words.

My biggest problem with calisthenics videos I see on youtube (I am not just talked about the vids posted in this thread) is that they have these massive 200 lbs guys talking about how calisthenics gave them their physique with no mention of how often they hit the gym.

Here is another way of debating the word "powerful" as you guys are using it with calisthenics. Who is more powerful, Usain Bolt breaking world records at the 100m dash or Kenenisa Bekele who has the world record for the 10000m?

Powerful


Powerful?


I rest my case.

Post: #12

depends on how you're measuring strength. maximum 1RM? strength endurance? strength in relation to body mass?

who is more powerful? a 140 pound gymnast doing a triple bodyweight deadlift (420 pounds)? or a 250 pound bodybuilder doing a double bodyweight deadlift (500 pounds)

Post: #13

(05-14-2013 05:25 PM)BLarsen Wrote:  who is more powerful? a 140 pound gymnast doing a triple bodyweight deadlift (420 pounds)? or a 250 pound bodybuilder doing a double bodyweight deadlift (500 pounds)

This example has nothing to do with our little debate here. Both of the guys you list have built more muscle and are way more powerful then someone doing 135 lbs deadlift 100 times which is what calisthenics is.

You are enforcing my point with this example. How do you do double or triple bodyweight calisthenic exercises at a playground?

Post: #14

I think your idea of calisthenics is limited. when I think of calisthenics I'm including the entire range of gymnastic exercises. that's all "street workouts" are, modified gymnastic workouts.

you've seen competitive male gymnasts and the skills they have. it takes a lot of strength to do those movements.

how do you make calisthenics more difficult? decrease leverage. do a two armed movement with one arm. hold for time. pyramid sets. slow tempo.

Post: #15

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Post: #16

(05-14-2013 05:49 PM)BLarsen Wrote:  I think your idea of calisthenics is limited. when I think of calisthenics I'm including the entire range of gymnastic exercises. that's all "street workouts" are, modified gymnastic workouts.

you've seen competitive male gymnasts and the skills they have. it takes a lot of strength to do those movements.

how do you make calisthenics more difficult? decrease leverage. do a two armed movement with one arm. hold for time. pyramid sets. slow tempo.

http://www.adonisindex.com/the-illusion-...ymnastics/

Quote:For comparison, the average height of a man in north america is 5’10. The average height of the mens gymnastics competitors I looked up with closer to 5’5. In north america 5’5 is a short man, no other way to say it. The mens gymnasts are also very light compared to average even tho they exhibit significant muscular development. Their bodyweights are in in the 120-140lbs range. Again this is very light compared to an average man.

Gymnasts are not powerful, they have tiny bodies and low body fat custom made for the specific sport. We done here yet?

Post: #17

done with what? what point are you trying to make? that gymnasts don't have muscle? That's incorrect. that they're tiny? of course they are. short dudes with low body fat definitely are tiny.

define powerful. are you saying they're not strong? That's incorrect. not explosive? watch a routine on the rings.

are you saying that an average guy has nothing to gain from calisthenics or gymnastics because they're not short? I disagree.

when I get home I'll add some “proof". I'm on mobile...

Post: #18

Jaylow, resistance is resistance, the body knows no different and responds accordingly.

BLarsen has it right, increase difficulty by decreasing leverage, doing two armed movements with one arm, heavy isometric holds; all these movements will greatly increase resistance and increase potential strength and hypertrophy gains. The key here is progressions -

For straight arm strength, you go from
frog stand -> tuck planche -> split/straddle planche -> straddle planche -> full planche

Once you can go through these progressions to the full planche (pic here) you should be benching double bodyweight easily. It can take 2-5 years to do this.


For bent arm strength, you (can) go from
bodyweight rows -> assisted chinups -> chinups -> one-arm bodyweight rows -> one-arm assisted chins -> one-arm chins
This progression is fuzzy since most ring athletes do considerable pulling work anyway, but you get the gist, each movement is more difficult than the previous and there could be many smaller progressions between each movement.

There's like 20 different kinds of dips in gymnastics so I won't bother.
Another good example is pistol squats (not to mention glute ham raise), gymnastics progressions are bizarre but paul wade has 10 progressions for it, basically -
bodyweight squats -> close squats -> assisted one-legged (half) -> assisted one-legged (full) -> pistol

There's like 10 core movements in gymnastics; manna progressions, front/back lever progressions, planche progressions, iron cross progressions, HeSPU, hspu, etc.

Post: #19

Calisthenics are the bodyweight movements that require little to no equipment outside of a pullup bar. If you're interested in getting much stronger, you'll need to invest in a pair of gymnastic rings and work up to the front, back, and side levers along with the planche. That shit takes years to build up to though. I have no idea what kind of strength level you're at, so your mileage may vary.

Can you build muscle with calisthenics? Yes.

Can you progressively make the exercises harder? Yes.

Is it nearly as convenient as adding a fractional plate to the bar? No.

Are you going to be as well developed in the lower body as a guy who deadlifts and squats on the regular? No.

Are you going to be as big as a guy who trains with weights? No.

Here's a couple options if you're serious about bodyweight stuff.

If you just want to fool around with calisthenics, get a copy of al kavadlos books Raising the Bar and Pushing the Limits and then just work through the progressions and see how far you get. Convict Conditioning follows a similar vein to this form of training.

If you're already pretty strong, I'd just pick up a copy of Building the Gymnastic Body (get the ebook off the website, it's cheaper), do the Killroy70 template (it's all over the forums over there), and work through the progressions.

If you have any joint problems and you don't want to accidentally fuck up your shoulders, do Foundation One through Four. The Foundation series will hammer out any postural problems or "weak links" in the chain.

And no, I don't get paid to advertise it. https://zp130.infusionsoft.com/app/store...roductId=2

You'll need equipment after a while, but if you buy the programs off the website, there is a subforum full of dudes who are more than happy to answer your questions. For the earlier programs, there's a lot of guys who figured out equipment substitutes for some of the exercises. Stall bars are expensive, but they're not terribly hard to work around.

Also, the reason why so many gymnasts are small has to do with the sport itself. Shorter, well built gymnasts have been the only people who ever pull off things like an iron to maltese cross. A larger and heavier athlete would feasibly peak in strength with the earlier movements (such as the iron cross or the high v sit), whereas the shorter gymnasts consider moves such as the iron cross to be an intermediate exercise and the full mana to be hard, but not impossible. If a bigger athlete mastered the same movement as a smaller one, he'd be immensely more powerful.

This guy is 6 foot 6 and he's under the success stories in the gymnastic forum. He's not exactly going to turn heads when he's walking down the street, but he's pretty damn strong. Weights are a better one size fits all approach, but you can still get strong from bodyweight type training.

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/pa...-erik-r125

Post: #20

Ok Jaylow, before I start let me just give you an idea of where I'm coming from with the calisthenics thing.

I've been into resistance training for the past 14 years. I've done bodybuilding style, powerlifting (competitive) and now calisthenics. Why calisthenics? I'm trying to save dinero. If I could spend an extra $30/month I would get a gym membership to COMBINE with my calisthenics not replace.

I will agree 1 million percent that you will NEVER get as big from doing calisthenics if you put the same effort into lifting weights. That's not the point though IMO. Your seem to want to make the point that calisthenics are mainly useless and that the muscle built is minimal. I totally disagree.

If someone wants to get HYOOGE in the quickest and most efficient way possible, weights are obviously the answer. If someone wants to do cool bodyweight tricks while building muscle at a slower weight as a byproduct of training the trick, calisthenics can do that. The trainee must train in accordance with their goals.

Regarding gymnasts. Over time the sport weeds out taller guys because short guys have short limbs. Short limbs = better leverage. Low bodyfat = Less weight to maneuver in space.

Re: being powerful. Here is rings champion Chen Yibing. These movements display muscular endurance, strength and explosiveness.






Re: building muscle. See this Aussie fellow from FitnessFAQs who only does calisthenics/gymnastics movements

(05-14-2013 05:56 PM)Jaylow Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 05:49 PM)BLarsen Wrote:  I think your idea of calisthenics is limited. when I think of calisthenics I'm including the entire range of gymnastic exercises. that's all "street workouts" are, modified gymnastic workouts.

you've seen competitive male gymnasts and the skills they have. it takes a lot of strength to do those movements.

how do you make calisthenics more difficult? decrease leverage. do a two armed movement with one arm. hold for time. pyramid sets. slow tempo.

http://www.adonisindex.com/the-illusion-...ymnastics/

Quote:For comparison, the average height of a man in north america is 5’10. The average height of the mens gymnastics competitors I looked up with closer to 5’5. In north america 5’5 is a short man, no other way to say it. The mens gymnasts are also very light compared to average even tho they exhibit significant muscular development. Their bodyweights are in in the 120-140lbs range. Again this is very light compared to an average man.

Gymnasts are not powerful, they have tiny bodies and low body fat custom made for the specific sport. We done here yet?

Post: #21

Great post Hannibal. Rep 4 you sir.

Post: #22

Yeah, I did a bunch of research the last couple months because there aren't any gyms where I'll be stuck at for the summer.

Gymnastic strength training looked like a good deal. The models in the book were built using his own methods.

I'll be doing Foundation One and if it works like it says it does, I'll do a write up.

Post: #23

It is possible to get huge using purely bodyweight exercises. Look on YouTube for Bartendaz, CalisthenicsKingz, Hannibal, Jim Bathurst from Beast Skills and gymnasts like Jordan Jovtchev or Yuri Van Gelder.

Resistance is resistance, your muscles don't know what force they're contracting against. They just know that they're working their hardest and it's not enough so they need to grow.

There's one main reason I work out with primarily bodyweight: it's so much cooler. With weights you can add an extra 5kg to your lifts when you progress whereas with bodyweight exercises you're now onto a harder looking progression.

Just look at the One Arm Planche, Victorian or One Arm Front Lever Pull-up. All ridiculously hard exercises that look absolutely incredible - they're what motivate me to keep getting stronger.

I second Building the Gymnastic Body by Coach Sommer, invaluable for any calisthenics enthusiast.

Post: #24

Some pretty good advice in this thread so far. +1 for gymnasticbodies.com, it sure is an awesome resource.

When going from bodybuilding to body weight exercises, you should also prepare yourself to shift the focus from muscle-specific exercises, to movement-specific, depending on how serious you are about body weight exercises. It is also very much possible to do hybrids between body weight and bodybuilding programs and only incorporate muscle-specific body weight exercises. I wrote some posts about going from bodybuilding to body weight/gymnastic on my blog a few months back, they may be helpful, but the answers given so far here, should already give you some pretty good starting points.

Post: #25

(05-15-2013 02:37 AM)Valentine Wrote:  It is possible to get huge using purely bodyweight exercises. Look on YouTube for Bartendaz, CalisthenicsKingz, Hannibal, Jim Bathurst from Beast Skills and gymnasts like Jordan Jovtchev or Yuri Van Gelder.

. . .

I second Building the Gymnastic Body by Coach Sommer, invaluable for any calisthenics enthusiast.

I don't know much about the rest of the barstarzz, but Hannibal for King gets a lot of steroid accusations. He's also been doing barwork for 17 years and last I heard he does it for 6 hours a day.

Jim Bathurst lifts plenty of free weights, so he's not the best resource if you're looking at getting better with bodyweight training through bodyweight training alone, or you want to see what kind of a physique you can develop with just bodyweight training.

Building the Gymnastic Body is a good resource if you've already got a couple years of gymnastic training under your belt. I really don't recommend it for beginners, it's more of a destination than a road map if you haven't done the fundamentals yet.

A good number of people on the BtGB forum have had flexibility issues and that fucked them over when they started doing more advanced versions of back levers, front levers, and planches. The foundation series just came out a couple months ago. Coach sommers realized that the majority of his audience were a bunch of detrained 18-35 year old dudes who didn't have the know-how to program their own strength and mobility workouts.