Post: #26

the more frequently you train the bodypart, the less you will be sore.

therefore on popular split routines where you train a bodypart only once a week, you will experience regular soreness. on full body programs or really tight splits where you train each bodypart 2-3 times a week, you will not be sore.

Post: #27

bodmon - I agree partially with your statement that the more you train a body part, the less you will be sore. My experience with this now has led me to training the full body (each muscle group) three times per week.

But, the other key point that I was trying to make is that as you get older, your ability to "Blitz" a muscle group decreases. Most split programs indeed have you completely Blitz a muscle group, and often it is a week before revisiting.

Using chest as an example once again, if you do Flat Bench, Incline DBs, and Flies all in one day...you completely destroy this muscle group. When you get older, this becomes much harder to recover from. But, if you take these exact same lifts and spread them over three days, you heal much better and much less likely to have severe cases of DOMS.

But, for those that are still 25...knock yourself out...the Blitz approach with a traditional split indeed works and can make you into a monster if you so choose.

Post: #28

I received a request for an example of the Heavy/Light/Medium full body rotation.

First, all the usual caveats apply...you should know when to substitute a lift, adjust intensity, adjust reps, add/subtract sets. I'm also not going to include the warm-up, core, and cardio...those are separate. I often use a set or two for warmup with a compound lift, but this is not included in my recommended number of sets (meaning, if I say 4 sets of bench, this doesn't include your obligatory set of 135 to get warmed up). But, for a general outline here is one example:

Standard "#Sets x #Reps" applies. So, 4x8 means 4 sets of 8 reps. It is critical to know that you should be trying to dial this rep range in. For example, if 8 reps is recommended, it is exactly that, a recommendation or starting point...you may have to dial this up or down according to where you are at.

* denotes a "Heavy" compound lift

Monday (Heavy):
- Chest - Flat Bench*: 4 sets
- Back - DB Row: 3 sets
- Legs - Squats*: 4 sets
- Shoulders - DB flies: 3 sets
- Biceps - DB Curls: 3 sets
- Triceps - Pressdowns: 3 sets

Light (Wednesday):
- Chest - cable crossover: 3 sets
- Legs - lunges: 3 sets
- Back - Deadlift*: 4 sets
- Back - Lat pulls: 3 sets
- Shoulders - Lateral raise: 3 sets
- Biceps - DB hammer curl: 2 sets
- Triceps - extensions: 2 sets

Medium (Friday):
- Chest - DB Incline: 3 sets (maybe 4)
- Legs - Leg Press (or more squats): 3 sets (maybe 4)
- Back - T-bar Rows: 4 sets
- Shoulders - Straight Bar Shoulder Press*: 3 sets
- Biceps: Straight bar curl: 2 sets (maybe 3)
- Triceps: DB Skullcrushers: 2 sets (maybe 3)

Key things to remember:
- Substitute exercises at will, this is how you can increase variety and feeling of randomness while remaining on progression
- Dial up / down your set and rep scheme
- Don't beat yourself up if you end up on a 5 day business trip, hit your calisthenics and cardio and realize that a big reason you are going this route is that it prevents you from constantly having to restart your "normal" split program on day 1 every time you have to hit the road.
- Anyone under 28 will likely call bull on this program, but remember, you are getting all the same lifts as you would on a "traditional split", but in a setup more suited to disruption and for those of us that need a little more recovery time
- Make sure to have some good cardio routine for your "off days". Not a bad idea to have a good calisthenic type of conditioning in your back pocket (I cringe at the idea of saying "metcon" as I don't want to awaken the crossfit evangelists). But something like: 100 jump rope skips, 15 kettle bell swings (say, 53lb), 15 pushups, 10 burpees...repeated for 4 rounds can be a great supplement to the treadmill if you get stuck in a hotel. You can easily pick up the above "Heavy/Light/Medium" routine when you get back because it is FULL BODY.

Post: #29

(02-14-2014 10:04 PM)anonymous123 Wrote:  Seaver,

I've had to deal with this. I will give you some background that may be helpful for you, and then pass along the advice that I got from a friend that I thankfully decided to implement.

By way of background, I've been lifting weights pretty much my whole life. I was a competition powerlifter for many years, and although I have tried body building I could never get shredded enough (to get in panties and go on stage). The split routine was pretty much the holy grail until I reached 30. At 30, the split routine started failing me on two fronts. First, I started getting DOMS (others covered this). But, at 30 I could still seem to find my way around DOMS some, but it was noticeably different than even 27. Second, my travel schedule would blow things up. I'd find myself hitting Day #1, Day #2...then travel long enough to need to restart at Day #1 (meaning, there was always some group of muscles that was getting short changed). My key point is that as we get older we tend to have more responsibilities, and although we still workout, it may not be in the same facility all the time which can disrupt a split schedule. [And yes, I'm a "workout anywhere" person...but I didn't understand erratic travel until career started rolling].

I basically flailed for a few years in early 30s, going from disrupted split routines, to circuit training, and back. No gains. Then, I discovered crossfit and did this for 2.5yrs. I'm going to try to avoid provoking the xfit cult that is convinced this is the way, but, basically no gains here. Yes, the first 6mos was great and I thought I found the new thing. But, crossfit actually really sucks over the long haul and lack of progression means no real gains. (and if these guys workout in a regular gym they are so SpazTastick that you can spot them a mile away, but I digress). At some point I took a step back and thought to myself "Hell, not one of these crossfit coaches has a fraction of my background...why am I listening to them". So, I bailed and put all of that time back into a block and tackle split routine with some running/cardio. AND, the DOMS came back.

Finally, I talked to an older lifter (45). He said that it is just a fact of life that when you get older you have a harder time recovering, but, meatheads like us keep pushing it anyway. He told me what works for him, and although I was skeptical at first, it made intuitive sense. I decided to give it a shot, and now this is how I lift. Here goes:

I still use all the same lifts I would normally use if I were doing a "split" routine, but I spread them out differently. Now a 3-day routine looks like: Day 1 = Heavy, Day 2 = Light, Day 3 = Medium. I pick ONE lift per body part per day. All workouts are FULL body. And, the big compound lifts are the choice for the Heavy day. (I want to stick to the point, but as an aside an advanced lifter will quickly recognize that you may have to drop in one heavy lift on other days as it can be hard to hit heavy squat, bench, and dead all in one day).

I will pick on Chest for just one body part. In a regular split routine, you may end up with 3 exercises on chest - say, Bench, Incline DBs, and Flies. You pound the shit out of this body part (and usually one other body part like Tris). But, at 35+ you tend to get much more sore with this setup than at 25 (of which this turned you into a monster). With this rotation you would do: Heavy (Bench), Light (Flies), Medium (Incline DBs).

For me this solved my two big problems where the split routine was failing me:
1) Travel was interrupting the split routine. In every workout this is FULL body, so you really don't lose that much if you are set back a day or two (or three) from your schedule. You can easily do something else while on the road and not lose progression or feel like one group of muscles ends up getting rotated more often than another.
2) My body tends to recover much better with ONE really solid exercise for each body part than blasting it with everything and waiting a week to get back to that muscle group.

Thanks for the info and all the effort you put in typing that out

I want to make sure I understand you here though. Are you saying do a program something like this?

Monday - Heavy weights for all exercises
Dumbbell Press
Squats
Military Press

Wednesday - light weight for all exercises
Dumbbell Fly
Front Squat
Shrugs

Friday - Medium weight for all exercises
Incline bench
Dead Lift
Bent Over Rows

Post: #30

Seaver - generally speaking, yes. (although, with your example I think you are missing some muscle groups, but you are generally correct).

For me, I've had to tweak it a little bit, but it still follows the same pattern of "Heavy/Medium/Light". In particular, I have 4 big compound lifts each weak: Bench, Squat, Deadlift, and Shoulder Press. I can't do all of these in one day anymore (I added this modification in the layout and denoted where I put these lifts with a "*").

On Heavy day, I keep a heavy mindset. If I'm doing DB rows, I push it hard and try to add some weight at the expense of some reps (probably targeting 8s here). On Light day I will try to pick an exercise that is easier on the joints and something where I would normally gravitate towards higher reps (support exercises, like cable flies).

Hope this helps.

Post: #31

(02-26-2014 07:52 PM)anonymous123 Wrote:  Seaver - generally speaking, yes. (although, with your example I think you are missing some muscle groups, but you are generally correct).

For me, I've had to tweak it a little bit, but it still follows the same pattern of "Heavy/Medium/Light". In particular, I have 4 big compound lifts each weak: Bench, Squat, Deadlift, and Shoulder Press. I can't do all of these in one day anymore (I added this modification in the layout and denoted where I put these lifts with a "*").

On Heavy day, I keep a heavy mindset. If I'm doing DB rows, I push it hard and try to add some weight at the expense of some reps (probably targeting 8s here). On Light day I will try to pick an exercise that is easier on the joints and something where I would normally gravitate towards higher reps (support exercises, like cable flies).

Hope this helps.

Do you add in cardio on lifting days or the off days?

Post: #32

I add cardio whenever I possibly can. I rarely pull off cardio on heavy day. I absolutely try for cardio on my "off days", but the "Light" day is usually pretty short so I usually have no excuse to get some cardio in on the same session.

Post: #33

(02-27-2014 01:55 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  I add cardio whenever I possibly can. I rarely pull off cardio on heavy day. I absolutely try for cardio on my "off days", but the "Light" day is usually pretty short so I usually have no excuse to get some cardio in on the same session.

I'm assuming you also use a higher number of reps on lighter days as well?


And thank you again for your input, its been very helpful.

Post: #34

Yes, higher number of reps on lighter days.

Here is another way of looking at it. If we just use Bench as an example, on a traditional split you would likely do something like: Flat Bench (Heavier weight, lower rep range), Incline DBs (Medium or Medium+, medium rep range), Flies (light weight, higher rep).

You see? Most often you would be doing this anyway, but stacking all on the same day. Take the exact same exercises, and now they are spread over a week on a Heavy/Light/Medium rotation.

Post: #35

How is your diet?

How much protein do you consume? Eat more. Try sweet potatoes and white rice after you lift.

Make sure you are avoiding sugar and processed grains obviously.

Take a gelatin supplement: http://www.greatlakesgelatin.com/

Drink more water. I weigh 220-225 I drink 100 oz of water a day.

Eat a banana.

Man up. Just keep lifting til you stop getting sore. Dont let this discourage you. I wish I still got sore. Never get sore anymore.

Run 3 miles get the lactic acid going you will feel better after.


Take some amino acids.

Drink more water. Eat more protein and root vegetables.

*oh yeah, and raw goats milk. Raw goats milk is my natural steroid of life. Drink like 6 pints a day of that shit if you can. Google to find raw goat by you.

Post: #36

*2 on the diet. I ran into a ton of issues with lifting that didn't resolve until my diet was squared away.

What are your overall goals? What are you trying to accomplish right now?

Also, consider taking baking soda as a prework out supplement. Take a spoonful and drop it onto your tongue, down with a full glass of water. Be forewarned, it's nasty. Wait about 30-60 minutes for it to sink in. Don't eat this on an empty stomach though or else you'll get the runs.

Doing this will lower your blood PH and make the "burn" go away. The lactic acid build up will be reduced because of the massive amount of the buffering agent in your blood.

Post: #37

Looks like others have said it already, it's called DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness). Typical from either squats or newb gainz..just power through it and eat a shit ton of protein.

Post: #38

Yes, diet is key. But, key issue of the OP was dealing with extreme soreness (DOMS).

- Before turning 30, the "power through it and you will be fine" approach seemed to work fine.

- For several years after 30 it was a search for something different. The traditional split routine was became unmanageable for a number of reasons (recovery only being one issue).

- I have since learned that it gets harder to use a traditional split routine that "Blitzes" one muscle group followed by a long rest period.

- I finally listened to someone older that taught me that "blitzing" is harder as you get older, and switched to full body

- If I were still in my 20s and someone told me this I would've (and probably did) call them crazy because I was able to get such extreme results with a split routine and good diet.

Post: #39

(02-27-2014 09:41 AM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  How is your diet?

How much protein do you consume? Eat more. Try sweet potatoes and white rice after you lift.

Make sure you are avoiding sugar and processed grains obviously.

Take a gelatin supplement: http://www.greatlakesgelatin.com/

Drink more water. I weigh 220-225 I drink 100 oz of water a day.

Eat a banana.

Man up. Just keep lifting til you stop getting sore. Dont let this discourage you. I wish I still got sore. Never get sore anymore.

Run 3 miles get the lactic acid going you will feel better after.


Take some amino acids.

Drink more water. Eat more protein and root vegetables.

*oh yeah, and raw goats milk. Raw goats milk is my natural steroid of life. Drink like 6 pints a day of that shit if you can. Google to find raw goat by you.

I consumer around 200-250 g of protein daily on a mostly paleo diet (and whey protein).

Water is at least 5-6 liters a day

BCAAs before working out, whey protein after.


Current weight is around 205, trying to get into the 190-195 range without losing muscle.

Post: #40

(02-27-2014 12:38 PM)frenchie Wrote:  *2 on the diet. I ran into a ton of issues with lifting that didn't resolve until my diet was squared away.

What are your overall goals? What are you trying to accomplish right now?

Also, consider taking baking soda as a prework out supplement. Take a spoonful and drop it onto your tongue, down with a full glass of water. Be forewarned, it's nasty. Wait about 30-60 minutes for it to sink in. Don't eat this on an empty stomach though or else you'll get the runs.

Doing this will lower your blood PH and make the "burn" go away. The lactic acid build up will be reduced because of the massive amount of the buffering agent in your blood.

lose about 10 pounds around the belly without losing muscle.

Post: #41

(02-06-2014 05:27 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 05:24 AM)Hades Wrote:  Sore or not, just lift.

I've made plenty of PRs while very sore, and lifting weights seems to reduce soreness anyhow.

Also, drink more water, eat more food, sleep more, jerk off, and take cold showers.

Sometimes after a really rough lifting session I'll eat a big dinner, pass out, and wake up the next day at like 11 not knowing what the fuck is going on. Happened last night. Body needs that extra sleep.

What time of the day do you lift?

Post: #42

Eat some more white rice and sweet potatoes post workout while still staying paleo.

Do your aerobic with your heart rate between 135-145 hbm this way you burn all fat and no muscle.

Post: #43

(02-28-2014 10:24 AM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  Eat some more white rice and sweet potatoes post workout while still staying paleo.

Do your aerobic with your heart rate between 135-145 hbm this way you burn all fat and no muscle.

what's the impact of the white rice/sweet potatoes?

Already on doing the cardio like that (I did a V02 max test to determine the hbm point me).