Post: #1

I starting thinking about NLP again after listening to Aurini's latest podcast, where he and his guest reveals that Anita Sarkeesian before becoming a feminist game critic studied NLP - Neuro-Linguistic Programming. He breaks it down in this video. It's pretty interesting.

For those that don't know. NLP is a hypnotic style of speaking, referenced in The Game, which is used in seduction, sales, and therapy. Part of it involves implanting hidden commands in everyday speech.

I'd never gotten into it, simply because I never had a strong enough reason to train myself in a new habit. Listening to the podcast however, rather than taking the MRA "how dare she!" and jumping to victim-hood, my manosphere trained brain just went "hmm... that's interesting... maybe I should learn that too."

I've also considered studying hypnosis for similar reasons. NLP has the advantage of being usable in everyday speech. I'll be doing some public speaking and sales related stuff soon, and something like this might be helpful.

I'm curious if anyone has studied NLP or hypnosis and could speak on a) how useful is it? Is it worth learning? and b) if you were to learn it, what would be the best way? I think I read a book on it a while ago, but like any habit reading isn't enough, and I'm curious what the best way to train yourself to use it daily would be.

I also find it interesting Anita Sarkeesian studied an old-school game technique - and not just an old school one, but one of the "creepiest" most-manipulative sounding techniques. NLP has applications beyond that obviously, but her use is just going for money the way a PUA would go for sex.

Post: #2

I am skeptical. But I am not an expert in this area.

Derren Brown is one of the most famous hypnotists/magicians in the world. He is a legend here in the UK.

And he studied with one of the founders of NLP. Anyway - I am familiar with Brown's writings and he is skeptical about the benefits of NLP as well. Although he pretends it is effective as part of the presentation he used for alot of his tricks and stunts.

Post: #3

(03-09-2014 09:48 AM)cardguy Wrote:  I am skeptical. But I am not an expert in this area.

Derren Brown is one of the most famous hypnotists/magicians in the world. He is a legend here in the UK.

And he studied with one of the founders of NLP. Anyway - I am familiar with Brown's writings and he is skeptical about the benefits of NLP as well. Although he pretends it is effective as part of the presentation he used for alot of his tricks and stunts.

Derren Brown is amazing. In his book, he minimizes it's impact, which could be misdirection, because in breakdowns of his stuff, it's central.

You're right though, I'm not sure how much is belief and how much just works. It makes sense to me though.

Post: #4

Derren Brown is amazing.

I am an expert in magic myself - and have read about 10,000 books and magazines on the subject.

I know the methods behind all of his tricks, but I still have alot of respect for the guy. He is a brilliant performer, thinker and very inventive in his use of methods. He is the most important magician of the past 30 years. You have to go back as far as Penn and Teller before finding a magician who has had a similar impact on cutting-edge magic.

I mention all that because I can promise you that NLP plays zero role in any of his tricks. Although - as you say - he does mention the thinking behind NLP as part of the presentation in alot of his tricks. But that is just a smokescreen. He wanted to make magic interesting for the audience by giving spectator's a 'peak behind the curtain' - as opposed to pretending to have magic powers (which is dumb and insults the intelligence of the audience).

So - his use of NLP is just a presentational device in order to change the focus of his magic away from the more traditional approach of claiming to have God-like magic powers. Which anybody over the age of 7 knows is clearly a dumb lie. It says alot about the state of magic that only P&T and Derren Brown have ever bothered trying to get rid of such childish ideas in magic.

Post: #5

NLP is definitely worth learning.

I'm skeptical of Ross Jeffries' claimed ability to implant commands into your conversations - i.e, using the phrase 'below me' the implant a suggestion of 'blow me'. I'm not ruling anything out, but that seems implausible to me, and most guys would come off weird and awkward trying to steer their conversations in a direction that allows them to use certain phrases.

But that's only a small and poorly-presented example of what NLP is all about. Contrary to Strauss's portrayal of Jeffries, NLP is actually about understanding how language affects our thoughts, and how we can influence our own behaviour, by re-framing and getting rid of limiting beliefs.

I'm on the go right now but I'll try to come back to this post with some recommended reading and a breakdown of some of the NLP tools that I use to improve my own mental states and behaviour.

Post: #6

(03-09-2014 10:23 AM)cardguy Wrote:  Derren Brown is amazing.

I am an expert in magic myself - and have read about 10,000 books and magazines on the subject.

I know the methods behind all of his tricks, but I still have alot of respect for the guy. He is a brilliant performer, thinker and very inventive in his use of methods. He is the most important magician of the past 30 years. You have to go back as far as Penn and Teller before finding a magician who has had a similar impact on cutting-edge magic.

I mention all that because I can promise you that NLP plays zero role in any of his tricks. Although - as you say - he does mention the thinking behind NLP as part of the presentation in alot of his tricks. But that is just a smokescreen. He wanted to make magic interesting for the audience by giving spectator's a 'peak behind the curtain' - as opposed to pretending to have magic powers (which is dumb and insults the intelligence of the audience).

So - his use of NLP is just a presentational device in order to change the focus of his magic away from the more traditional approach of claiming to have God-like magic powers. Which anybody over the age of 7 knows is clearly a dumb lie. It says alot about the state of magic that only P&T and Derren Brown have ever bothered trying to get rid of such childish ideas in magic.

@cardguy

Any good books on the principles of misdirection?

WIA

Post: #7

Edit

Post: #8

@WIA - mmm... Most magic doesn't rely on misdirection. In fact - it has become one of those cliches that magicians like to promote since it makes the secrets of magic more arcane and interesting than they often are. For example - if you have a deck of cards that are all the same - it is quite nice having the spectator go away thinking you are some kind of genius at misdirection. When in fact the secret is that the deck was made of 52 '7 of Clubs'.

One of the big secrets in magic is that the real method is often quite mundane and very simple.

Misdirection is used more in pickpocket acts which is one of those offshoots of magic which grows in popularity every 40 years. At the moment the best in the world at this sort of thing is Apollo Robbins. He is the leading thinker in concepts involving misdirection.

He has a TED lecture which is worth checking out:





I have seen him give lectures to magicians where he explains his methods and the principles behind his act. And it was one of the most interesting lectures I have seen in magic. Really groundbreaking stuff.

I did a quick look on YouTube - and this video seems to be him explaining some of the principles behind his work. This video is definitely worth watching:





As for the idea of misdirection - magicians these days think more in terms of 'directing attention' as opposed to misdirection. Apart from a few essays buried away in old magic books - there are no actual books worth reading in this area. Since there has never really being a whole book devoted to misdrection. Tommy Wonder, Arturo de Ascanio, Juan Tamariz, Michael Close and Tom Stone have written some interesting essays in this area. But they won't make much sense unless you are a magician - since they require alot of technical knowledge. And they are buried away in expensive magic books.

In that sense - the best uses of misdirection often involve leading the spectator to draw the wrong conclusion from the evidence provided to him. This is the secret behind the best mindreading and mentalism effects.

There are small subtleties involved in such effects which lead you to being fooled by the bigger overall effect. A such 'misdirection' usally involved trying to get you to think along a certain path. As opposed to distracting you and doing something sneaky whilst you were not paying attention.

An important concept in this area is 'dual reality' which is the principle behind most of the strongest mentalism effects. Pretty much everything Derren Brown does involves elements of 'dual reality'.

'Dual reality' is a magican's terms which means you perform one trick for a spectator on stage - but the audience watching think you are performing a slightly different effect. Usually the effect you do for the spectator on stage is pretty good - but the effect the audience watching thinks you did is a miracle.

This is separate from 'stooging' (ie having a friend be a spectator and pretend to be fooled) since neither the spectator nor the audience is 'in' on the effect. So in that sense it is a more elegant method for designing tricks.

I could spend years discussing magic. Since I have devoted my life to researching its history, designing tricks and uncovering the worlds best magic. My preference is for magic tricks which have subtle and incredibly elegant methods. But I have other varied in interests in magic as well.

Lastly - of the more traditional magic tricks - the oldest one in magic ('The Cups and Balls') often makes use of traditional misdirection principles.

You can see this demonstrated by Penn And Teller in one of their most famous effectss:





And here is Penn And Teller discussing some of the principles of misdirection:





But to finish. I just want to say that the best misdirection are the small lies that you swallow without realising.

Lets go back to a deck of cards where every card is 'The 7 of Clubs'.

If I let you look through the deck - I will be busted.

And it might seem suspicious if I don't show you that it is an ordinary deck before doing a trick for you.

One way would be to start with an ordinary deck of cards and secretly switch it for my fake deck (with all the same card).

This is fine - but introduces risks of its own.

So a more subtle way of thinking is just to hand you the deck and ask you to shuffle them. You are shuffling a deck of cards where every card is the same. Which obviously makes no difference to me and the act of shuffling is pointless.

And it is because of that - that on a subconscious level - if a magician hands you a deck of cards and asks you to shuffle them, you automatically assume all the cards are different. Otherwise what would be the point of shuffling them?

It is small details like that which open the door for miracles.

Another one is called 'pre-show work'. This is the secret behind 99% of the tricks you see done on TV. Before the camera is filming - you ask a spectator to write down the name of any object in the world. on a piece of paper that the magician has helpfully supplied

The magician tells the spectator to put that paper in their pocket and not to forget the name of the object they are thinking of. You tell them you will use the name of that object later on for a trick.

Fasf forward half an hour - and the magician has the spectator on camera and says something like 'Now think carefully. Do you have the name of a random object in your mind?'

The spectator says he does.

And the magician names the object. To the viewers at home it seems a miracle. And to the spectator on stage - they have no idea how it is done either.

But here is the thing. When the magician had the spectator write down the name of the spectator on a piece of paper - he had 101 different methods for secretly obtaining that information.

But for the viewer at home - they are left with the impression that the name of the object was only thought of and had never been written down.

When in fact it had - off camera...

Maybe I shouldn't be telling you some of these things. But I don't mind - since myself and many other magicians find such methods 'hack' and unoriginal. I am sick of seeing talentless losers look like magic gods thanks to clever editiing and unoriginal ideas.

As soon as you can pre-tape a magic show - anything is possible. You don't need TV Special Effects - you just need to control which parts of the method are done off camera and which parts are done on camera. With nothing more than a TV camera - I could make anyone of you duplicate the miracles you see on TV.

It isn't even cheating exaclty (since no special effects or stooges are actually used). But it feels like cheating because it is so easy to fool the viewers at home.

This idea was best demonstrated in another Penn And Teller trick. I fucking love those guys!





I could cover other subjects to do with the psychology of deception in magic. The above is just a small sample. And with magic - as well as psychological subtleties, you can also use sleight-of-hand, secret gimmicks and mathematical principles to fool people. So there are alot of clever principles around for magicians to mix and match. The best tricks in magic usually combine 2 or 3 different principles.

With that said - the most powerful ideas in magic are the psychological deceptions.

Post: #9

(03-09-2014 10:23 AM)cardguy Wrote:  Derren Brown is amazing.

I am an expert in magic myself - and have read about 10,000 books and magazines on the subject.

RVF attracts interesting people.

Are you a magician by trade?

How does this interest help you in gaming women?

Post: #10

No - I am not a magician by trade. In fact most of the most important people in magic (not that I am one of them!) have been amateurs.

The magicians you see on TV and become famous? Well - the people they really admire tend to be amateurs who have never really earned money from magic.

For example - the most influential magician of the past hundred years was a chap called Dai Vernon. But he is completely unknown outside of magic. My heroes in magic are also guys who are not professional magicians and who are unknown as well. Hell - one of my heroes (Charles Jordan) was a chicken farmer!

I don't 'game' women myself - I explain why in the MGTOW thread:

/thread-21040.html

I am a red-pill kind of guy. But I am not so interested in doing the whole 'game' and PUA thing (which is why I never post in the 'Game' section of the forum).

Still - if you want to learn a fun stunt which is related to magic. I would recommend the legendary 'magic bill in cash register' scam. It is great fun. Just a shame it has become famous over the past few years:





As for using tricks to impress women. Yep - it does work. I am not interested in this myself - but there is definitely a bunch of shit in this area which works.

Although - I think a nice bit of origami can be effective. Check out the paper rose made from a napkin. Chicks love it:





I saw a guy do this on a film once. And he finished by dipping the rose into something (I think it was red wine?) to give it a nice effect. But I can't remember the exact details. But it worth thinking about.

Anyway - my interests in magic are very deep. And the flash novel effects that impress chicks and that you see on TV are like the 'pop music' of magic. They are great - but they don't capture the attention of experts in the way the forgotten corners of magic do. So - ironically - I am a bit too knowledgable about magic to focus on what simple tricks can be used to 'game' chicks.

Post: #11

If your a salesmen doing speeches any advantage that you can get is worth it, especially on how to overcome some type of objection. So NLP would be good for you in that sense. In my opinion, learning NLP for the sole purpose of gaming wouldn't be a fantastic ROI, just a small advantage.

A good book where you could start is Mind Lines by Michael Hall. This book will give you many ways to reframe situation with examples in conversation

Post: #12

I've had suggestive results with some of the techniques in the original books by Bandler and Grinder. For example, an acquaintance of mine once wanted to quit smoking. Using some NLP techniques (derived from the work of Milton Erickson), I described to him how I would go about hypnotising him if I were to do so to help him quit smoking, and in the process put him into a mild trance which he never noticed. He woke up one day, at least a year later, with absolutely no desire for a cigarette, and hasn't smoked since.

I've had mixed success using the techniques on myself, which I consider the more important use for them.

This was all many years ago. At the end of the day, I feel that what is called NLP is pseudo-science at best, but some of the specific techniques in those early books on the subject are effective. If I wanted to pick it up again someday, I wouldn't bother with anything that the founders of the practice have done since they went their separate ways, as it seems to have all gotten a bit too wacky for my taste. In any case, the entire subject is worth learning about, and very relevant to game.

Post: #13

(03-09-2014 10:39 AM)Frost Wrote:  I'm skeptical of Ross Jeffries' claimed ability to implant commands into your conversations - i.e, using the phrase 'below me' the implant a suggestion of 'blow me'.

Personal favorite: "new direction."

Post: #14

(03-09-2014 09:42 AM)runsonmagic Wrote:  how useful is it? Is it worth learning?

From Wikipedia :

Reviews of empirical research find that NLP's core tenets are poorly supported.[16]

The balance of scientific evidence reveals NLP to be a largely discredited pseudoscience. Scientific reviews show it contains numerous factual errors,[14][17] and fails to produce the results asserted by proponents.[16][18]

According to Devilly (2005),[19] NLP has had a consequent decline in prevalence since the 1970s. Criticisms go beyond lack of empirical evidence for effectiveness, saying NLP exhibits pseudoscientific characteristics,[19] title,[20] concepts and terminology as well.[21][22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-lingu...rogramming

Post: #15

@Frost Would love to see your reading list for NLP.

Post: #16

I was into NLP before I was into game.
A summary of my observations are in this thread:
/thread-19937.html

In short: unless you REALLY want to commit to NLP I say don't bother.

Post: #17

NLP seems to me like the prototypical seduction scam. it baffles me that anyone with a baseline of common sense and observational skills would give it credence. just think about it: billions of men have been getting together with women since the dawn of the species, and billions of men continue to do so in the world today ... how many of them do you think relied on 'NLP' to achieve this?

Post: #18

NLP is a methodology for modelling excellence which just so happens to have been applied to therapy and seduction. The therapeutic application is basically an overt use of conversational hypnosis, and can be very effective if used by a skilled practitioner.

I personally am a hypnotist who uses some NLP to augment my skill set. If you're willing to commit the effort to mastering this skill then it is definitely worth checking out. If you want an understanding of how useful / effective NLP can be, have a search for some live demonstrations by Richard Bandler. I've trained with him in person, and while I wouldn't recommend his live trainings, seeing him demonstrating NLP / hypnosis in action was amazing.

Post: #19

Cardguy, stupendous reply. I'm more interested in the twisting of reality during a conversation, than wowing a girl/set of girls with something spectacular.

Going for that conversation that leads in one direction, but turns, and that turn is only obvious after the fact. Give the listener pleasure, but keep them off balance and guessing, guiding them to conclusions that they think are their own, but were actually engineered by me.

WIA

Post: #20

Yeah - I manage to do this from time to time. Helps to have interesting facts and brainteasers to hand.

For instance - I often explain to girls than women on average are smarter than men.

This gets them nodding along like I am a blue-pill beta provider.

Then I say that all the geniuses throughout history have been men.

This confuses them - and they ask why I say that? Since I just said women - on average - are smarter than men.

I then go on to explain the differences in the spread/extremes of intelligence between men and women. Women's intelligence spreads narrowly around a certain IQ point.

And then position might be a little bit higher than the average for men.

But the key difference is that the IQ distribution curve for men is alot wider than for women. It means we have more dumb people - but it also means we have all the geniuses.

Which is why women interested in female accomplishments study women's studies.

And why men interested in male accomplishments study men's studies - otherwise known as history.

The above is a line I saw as the signature to a forum post the other day - and I am going to add it the next time I am trying to tease women about the differences between men and women.

Sometimes - if I am talkinging to a hardcore feminist - I will sometimes drop in a sneaky question to try and catch them out. It has worked every time I have used it.

I say to them - "A friend asked me this brainteaser but I can't work it out. Can you help?"

"A successful lawyer living in New York has a brother who is a doctor living in Los Angeles. But the brother who is a doctor living in Los Angeles doesn't have a brother who is a lawyer living in New York."

I ask the feminist if she can figure out how that could be the case?

They always give up.

I then put on a shit-eating grin, and say:

"Shit - I figured it out. The successful lawyer in New York is a woman."

It is a clever way of revealing the subconscious sexist prejudices that even self-declared feminists have.

As for manipulating conversations and getting what you want. A magician that I know used to be a hustler and scam artist. He recommened to me a particular book on 'door to door selling' which covers alot of the clever conversational gambits which can be used to getting what you want from somebody.

I bought the book - but never got round to reading it. The book is round at a different house - so I can't give the exact title.

Still - I mention this because these strategies are effective. And much better than the NLP mystic woo-woo that people try and promote.

I am not an expert in this field but it is worth investigating.

One of the techniques these people use is the 'Yes ladder'. You ask a bunch of questions that can only really be answered yes.

"You having a good time?"

Yes

"Have you been here before?"

Yes

"Have you and your friend known each other a long time?"

Yes

"Are you drinking a martini?"

Yes

"It is nearly empty - Can I get you another one?"

Yes

--------------

That last question is the real reason for the series of build up questions. You condition a chick into repeatedly saying yes. And she is much more likely to say yes to the question you sneak in at the end.

These are the techniques that salesmen are taught.

Another technique is to raise a subject which indirectly gets the girls asking a follow-up question - which you can then use to reveal a piece of interesting information. Doing it indirectly - makes it appear less boastful - and that there are other aspects of your life just as interesting.

But that is just common sense really. And something most guys instinctively understand when interacting with people.

Still - if you want to learn about mainipulating conversations to get what you want. You should look into the techniques used by cold sellers.

Actually - thinking about it some more. I overlooked something. There is a whole field of magic devoted to manipulating conversations. It is the techniques used by 'psychics' as a way of apparently demonstrating supernatural abilities.

The key concept is 'Cold Reading'. It is a series of techniques that psychics use to apparently show that they know more than really do about somebody. Even information (about dead relatives and so on) - that they would have no way of knowing about it.

I am very familiar with the techniques used in this area. But I don't specialise in this type of magic - so it is not a passion of mine.

Still - this is supposed to be the best book written on the subject:

http://www.thecoldreadingbook.com/ [Derren Brown, James Randi and Martin Gardner all praise this book]

It may only be of interest to magicians though. I say that because magic books can be very expensive - so I wouldn't want you to spend money on something that you wouldn't fully understand or enjoy.

Derren Brown is pretty much the best magician in the world at the moment. And here he is in a conversation with Richard Dawkins explaining the principles of cold reading. It is well worth checking it out:





These are just examples of how magicians can manipulate conversations to appear psychic. It is an interesting subject in its own right. But I am not sure how useful this sort of thinking would be in 'gaming' women. That is a whole other question.

Post: #21

I think I first heard Tyler Durden say something about NLP and briefly looked into it. I just downloaded NLP For Dummies...to get an idea. Maybe this book is crap though.

Post: #22

(03-10-2014 10:05 AM)bodmon Wrote:  NLP seems to me like the prototypical seduction scam. it baffles me that anyone with a baseline of common sense and observational skills would give it credence. just think about it: billions of men have been getting together with women since the dawn of the species, and billions of men continue to do so in the world today ... how many of them do you think relied on 'NLP' to achieve this?

Very odd argument. The same could be said about game in general.

Post: #23

Years ago I looked into NLP and hypnosis. When I started out in game it helped since my verbal game was weak. I never did any of those patterns, but I became aware of what words I used and how they affected the outcome.

I've always been fascinated by altered states and how the mind works. Using words and body language to implant subtle suggestions isn't that far fetched in my opinion. People do it everyday. Is it some kind of mind control or insane power? No. The biggest thing I came away from NLP was understanding the power of language.

Magic and mentalism is fascinating to me as well.

Post: #24

(03-10-2014 05:12 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(03-10-2014 10:05 AM)bodmon Wrote:  NLP seems to me like the prototypical seduction scam. it baffles me that anyone with a baseline of common sense and observational skills would give it credence. just think about it: billions of men have been getting together with women since the dawn of the species, and billions of men continue to do so in the world today ... how many of them do you think relied on 'NLP' to achieve this?

Very odd argument. The same could be said about game in general.

how so?

Post: #25

(03-10-2014 06:33 PM)bodmon Wrote:  

(03-10-2014 05:12 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(03-10-2014 10:05 AM)bodmon Wrote:  NLP seems to me like the prototypical seduction scam. it baffles me that anyone with a baseline of common sense and observational skills would give it credence. just think about it: billions of men have been getting together with women since the dawn of the species, and billions of men continue to do so in the world today ... how many of them do you think relied on 'NLP' to achieve this?

Very odd argument. The same could be said about game in general.

how so?

Game seems to me like the prototypical seduction scam. it baffles me that anyone with a baseline of common sense and observational skills would give it credence. just think about it: billions of men have been getting together with women since the dawn of the species, and billions of men continue to do so in the world today ... how many of them do you think relied on 'Game' to achieve this?


See?