Post: #1

Think about it, the cost of education is rising more rapidly than even housing during the housing boom. and of course, we all know the quality of education is going down.





more specifics of California higher ed system.

Post: #2

a bit looney fringe group but they have good facts:

Post: #3

The nature of any bubble is for it to reach unsustainable extremes for far too long than should be allowed. The education bubble has been at extreme levels for some time with the tution prices rising far beyond inflationary levels for many years and in particular the last few years have really seen a ramp up in tution prices. But like any bubble it will probably continue for some time before it does pop even though the bubble should logically be bursting now. I am curious what will be the final trigger that bursts the education bubble?

Post: #4

(03-19-2014 11:55 AM)bacon Wrote:  I am curious what will be the final trigger that bursts the education bubble?

I think the thing that will burst the bubble will be the following things:

-Foreigners opening their eyes and seeing higher education in the US is shit.
-too many people not being able to pay back overbearing student loans
-certain percentage of native American citizens saying fuck it and quit going to college like I did.
-the economy getting worse and parents not being able to fund college to send their "princesses" to school.

There is more but I can't think of anything else right now.

Post: #5

The education bubble is in part a consumer spending bubble fueled by credit availability.

Getting a degree in cultural anthropology is not an investment, any more than buying a brand new, top-of-the line German sports would be. I am not saying these things are bad, just that they are not sound investments in the economic sense. They will not recoup their costs with the future cash flows that they produce. However, that is not to say that they may not make sense in other ways.

Just as a fancy car can be a means to acquiring non-monetary benefits such as women, a fancy humanities degree can be a benefit in and of itself, the value of which is not directly measurable in money.

Post: #6

-Foreigners opening their eyes and seeing higher education in the US is shit.

The US has the best higher education system in the world. We produce more medical and technological innovations than probably than the entire world combined. MIT, Harvard, Caltech, Wharton, etc produce and attract some of the best minds in the world.

The majority of people in college are not smart enough to actually major in advanced subjects so they major in marketing and communications and other types of useless degrees. The unemployment rate for college graduates is around 5%. If you go to a top 50 college and major in a useful subject you will have a job when you come out.

Post: #7

There are two ways of getting wealth.

One is to grow the pie.

The other is to get a bigger slice of the pie.

I think most higher education is a fucking waste of time. Even in the sciences.

It is just an arms race as people stack up qualifications in order to compete for the few remaining good jobs around.

Which is fine.

But it is a mistake if we think that people spending an extra ten years at university is going to add real wealth to the country and help grow the pie. Too many people are sucked into thinking more education is good for the economy as well. But it isn't. Having hungover students tune out of endless lectures before cramming before the obligatory exam doesn't create any real wealth.

Most of the education system today - is essentially a zero sum game. In which people are trained to compete for jobs - as opposed to create jobs.

Most of the people who add real wealth to the country never bothered accumulating more and more educational merit badges. Look at Gates, Jobs, Branson, Buffett and Zuckerberg to name a few.

Post: #8

(03-19-2014 12:24 PM)Lou pai Wrote:  -Foreigners opening their eyes and seeing higher education in the US is shit.

The US has the best higher education system in the world. We produce more medical and technological innovations than probably than the entire world combined. MIT, Harvard, Caltech, Wharton, etc produce and attract some of the best minds in the world.

The majority of people in college are not smart enough to actually major in advanced subjects so they major in marketing and communications and other types of useless degrees. The unemployment rate for college graduates is around 5%. If you go to a top 50 college and major in a useful subject you will have a job when you come out.

Key word is most colleges in the US are junk. I read on Zerohedge that a lot of people who are unemployed are taking online classes and uses the student loans to pay for life expenses.

My alma mater is way over priced for the quality I got. Nothing would make me happier than watching that sh!t hole collapse.

Post: #9

The bubble is definitely real. I was in college 20 years ago and the return on investment has been cut in half. My specific example -

- Graduated in 1995 from Public U. Total tuition - $16k. Started at XYZ company doing specific job N, making $32k. So my starting salary was 2x my total tuition.

- Current graduates from Public U. Total tuition - $52k. Now this tuition increase in and of itself is fine...assuming the you get the return on the back end. But you don't. Current starting salary at XYZ company doing specific job N is about $50-$55k, or 1x total tuition. In other words, your return on your tuition dollar is cut in half.

This is all driven by the subsidization of student lending by the feds. If there is an entity (in this case, the federal govt) lending money to 1) people who wouldnt normally qualify (no creditor would lend $100k to a person studying womens studies when the ave salary is $20k coming out) and 2) lending at a below market interest rate, the only rational decision by the colleges is to increase the price. Why? Because everyone can "afford it" courtesy of these idiotic loans. Same thing happened in housing, home prices went up because everyone "qualified" so there was no market clearing price.

So what's the upshot? I dont see the feds getting out of the student lending business anytime soon, so it will only get worse. Instead of pulling out, they will most likely double down by changing the bankruptcy code to allow student debtors off the hook. All paid for by the US tax payer.

Gotta run, going to tinker on my motor this afternoon...

Post: #10

Well, most departments of colleges are junk as well. The only ones that aren't are probably science departments but those departments are under heavy attack from the white knighting tyrannical US government to accomendate women in those departments.

I even had a history professor tell me once that the system of higher ed that the US has is junk because the original intent of higher Ed was to have an institution where free thinking was the norm and to produce civic minded citizens. College now is not that. Quite the opposite; they're institutions of dogmatic thought where free thinking is punished and don't produce civic minded citizens. They're basically certificate mills that suck you away of money and indoctrinate you with dogmatic ideologies that are hostile to freedom, critical thinking, equality, and honesty.

Post: #11

Online education is a scam. Since the whole point of education is to get the shiny bauble at the end which you can dangle at job interviews.

Nobody gives a fuck about what you actually learned. It is all about getting your hands on the prize. Preferably from a prestigious college.

http://www.insidehighered.com//blogs/jus...-education

Quote:Promoters of massive open online courses (Moocs) argue that there is an huge pent-up demand for affordable higher education which colleges cannot meet but Moocs can.

Wrong.

Most people don’t want higher education for its course content. They want the benefits that come bundled up with it, primarily the social networks acquired in college. The elites understand that. Moocs are for the mugs who don’t.

Post: #12

I think the education bubble is quite cool.

There is something funny about the smartest people in society herding like sheep to get ripped off.

Makes me smile.

Makes sense that the people who spent their whole lives following orders and regurgitating other people's ideas - in order to please those in authority, should be so easy to scam.

Post: #13

(03-19-2014 12:58 PM)cardguy Wrote:  Online education is a scam. Since the whole point of education is to get the shiny bauble at the end which you can dangle at job interviews.

Nobody gives a fuck about what you actually learned. It is all about getting your hands on the prize. Preferably from a prestigious college.

http://www.insidehighered.com//blogs/jus...-education

Quote:Promoters of massive open online courses (Moocs) argue that there is an huge pent-up demand for affordable higher education which colleges cannot meet but Moocs can.

Wrong.

Most people don’t want higher education for its course content. They want the benefits that come bundled up with it, primarily the social networks acquired in college. The elites understand that. Moocs are for the mugs who don’t.

Colleges are incredibly useless unless your training for a STEM career or are going to an elite school where the network and name is gold. Otherwise, the 4 year track is useless and would be better spent doing a 2+2 (2 years community college and 2 years at a higher ed school).

Once college becomes unaffordable for the masses, we will see a huge aspect of the libtard propaganda industry die over night. I look forward to it.

Post: #14

My undergraduate degree costs over $100,000 in tuition and other fees paid to my college.

I don't regret getting it, but I do believe that four years spent in the same couples of acres taking a range of courses is not the best use of that type of money.

For example, my time spent in Asia, which cost next to nothing, compared to a year's tuition at my college, was at least as valuable as my time spent in college classes...so in terms of learning, it obviously a better ROI.

My part time job during the last half of my years on campus was just as good of an educator as any of my classes. And I got paid to do it, so the only investment was my time.

However, several of my classes were life altering experiences. I do not regret taking four years worth of classes, because if my experience had been compacted, I might have missed out on the several classes that changed my life significantly for the better.



My belief that the ideal liberal arts education (at least as measured in real learning and career relevant experience) would be a combination of three equal parts: international travel and language training (which in any third world country costs only a pittance), valuable internships and work experiences that pay and actually prepare a person for a real job, and then classroom experiences focused on not just fulfilling certain requirements, but receiving real pressure from professors to develop critical thinking skills.

I went to what I believe was a very good school (although it was only a top 100 liberal arts college nation wide), which I had plenty of professor student interaction, but had I not taken the initiative myself and spent a full 8.5 years of my life getting the best undergraduate education that I could afford, I would have missed out on 2/3rds of what made my education as good as it was.

Post: #15

Learning to read is the only education a man needs.

The rest he can teach himself.

From books.

Post: #16

(03-19-2014 02:25 PM)cardguy Wrote:  Learning to read is the only education a man needs.

The rest he can teach himself.

From books.

Yes and no. What books can't necessarily teach you is discernment. Assuming that you actually study at an institution of higher education that allows beneficially professor-student contact and assuming that there instruction is informed by facts and not ideology, there is a significant benefit to be gained by having a professor guide your studies, which would expose you to the more cutting edge and respectable works in your field.

Of course, this doesn't actually happen at many institutions of higher learning.

Post: #17

Prisons have produced more great literature than all the universities of the world combined.

Post: #18

(03-19-2014 03:00 PM)cardguy Wrote:  Prisons have produced more great literature than all the universities of the world combined.

I'm not sure how this argument, which would be impossible to argue for or against effectively, has anything to do with the question of the value of higher education.

It is absolutely true that more scholarly works have been produced by every university in the world than any prison anywhere.

Universities are not supposed to be bastions of creative writing.

Post: #19

Yeah - my statement was a bit of a non sequitur.

Sorry about that.

Just seems like an interesting thing to ponder! :-)

Post: #20

Another thing.

By definition - universities attract the hardest working and most academically gifted people in each generation.

Some of who go on to do great things.

But - I think it is unfair to credit the universities with these achievements. Since the same people would have done great things without the universities.

It is a self-selecting group.

Post: #21

(03-19-2014 12:58 PM)cardguy Wrote:  Online education is a scam. Since the whole point of education is to get the shiny bauble at the end which you can dangle at job interviews.

Nobody gives a fuck about what you actually learned. It is all about getting your hands on the prize. Preferably from a prestigious college.

http://www.insidehighered.com//blogs/jus...-education

Quote:Promoters of massive open online courses (Moocs) argue that there is an huge pent-up demand for affordable higher education which colleges cannot meet but Moocs can.

Wrong.

Most people don’t want higher education for its course content. They want the benefits that come bundled up with it, primarily the social networks acquired in college. The elites understand that. Moocs are for the mugs who don’t.

Given the rise in photoshop, DIY publishing I think that just printing out your own degree and transcripts is the way to go. Even if you get busted what is the risk that you will be charged with fraud vs. just trying it again on another company.

Post: #22

(03-19-2014 04:40 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  Given the rise in photoshop, DIY publishing I think that just printing out your own degree and transcripts is the way to go. Even if you get busted what is the risk that you will be charged with fraud vs. just trying it again on another company.

Bad idea. You'll still be in the same boat as all the unskilled people graduating with legitimate degrees who can't find jobs.

Better to invest four years into learning actual marketable skills, preferably while making money in the process.

You'll be ahead of both university graduates who failed to develop skills that would be useful to employers and scammers who failed to develop skills that would be useful to employers.

Of course, you could spent four years learning actual marketable skills and earn money in the process and then print up a shiny fake diploma, but it'll be harder to explain how you had time for everything you accomplished and at that point, why take the risk?

Better yet, start your own business, hire yourself and thus avoid being penalized for not having a university degree.

Or maybe, go to a good school, with good professors and get a good education that does provide critical thinking skills, experience and the benefit of good counsel. You don't have to go to a sucky school (even one of the top 20 schools that won't offer you any of the above).

Post: #23

It's fine to have the "forget school" mentality but do you have that kick-ass business plan to make money? If not...you take you ass to school and study a marketable major.

I went and got a B.S. in Math/Computer Science and hired right out school. Now 25 years later (and a M.S. in Engineering later on) it still paid off. Sure, I went and sold my privacy to the Feds in order to get one of those security clearances but those things are gold in Washington DC and has kept me at 6 figures for the last 15 years. I could do the start my business thing but damn....the work is easy and my commute to so short that I go home to take a dump.

Guess I am complacent.

Post: #24

@urbannerd

You got a degree in a STEM field. Of course you got a job right away, those are in demand. I tried in a STEM field and I got slaughtered in mathematics. Outside of STEM fields, college is generally useless. You are better off working in retail and working yourself up than majoring in a non-STEM field. Or better yet, starting your own business.

You can take the route I'm doing (tradesman).

Post: #25

(03-19-2014 05:31 PM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  It's fine to have the "forget school" mentality but do you have that kick-ass business plan to make money? If not...you take you ass to school and study a marketable major.

I went and got a B.S. in Math/Computer Science and hired right out school. Now 25 years later (and a M.S. in Engineering later on) it still paid off. Sure, I went and sold my privacy to the Feds in order to get one of those security clearances but those things are gold in Washington DC and has kept me at 6 figures for the last 15 years. I could do the start my business thing but damn....the work is easy and my commute to so short that I go home to take a dump.

Guess I am complacent.

I don't think you are complacent, 25 years ago the opportunity cost of getting a degree in women's studies was still better than today. You would have lost 4 years of earning potential and what $12k in tuition? Now that opportunity cost is 4 years of earning potential and $100k in tuition. If I had to pay the tuition of today I would not have pursued the degree that I did, there is too much risk.