Post: #1

The recent high school stabbing in PA got me thinking about the infamous Columbine shootings of April 1999.

To those who are unaware, two high school seniors, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, stormed their school, killed 13 people and injured about 24 others before committing suicide.





I dont know how many of the guys here grew up in the 90s, but I think this shooting was the JFk assassination for the Millenial generation. It left an indelible mark on the US, its culture, and its psyche. What do you guys make of this incident? Two frustrated betas taking out their anger, bullying, or something else?

Post: #2

I think it turned outcasts into threats and gave every isolated kid the 'nuclear option' to solve depression and bullying. prior to this, how many bullied kids would think "well I'm going to resolve this by attacking my school"...never would have crossed their minds before, or at least would have stayed as some sort of impossible fantasy. These two kids showed that "it can be done and you can hurt alot of people before you are stopped" Their "success" is like being some sort of dark 'wright brothers' that proved the concept of teenage mass murder revenge and had made it more feasible for other people feeling at the end of their ropes.

Its like how their used to be sprees of postal workers going crazy and shooting up the place, they were 'inspired' by the last one. Each one of these school attacks keeps it fresh in the mind of the kid looking for a way to strike back.

I wish they did as much dramatic coverage of all of the nerds turned jillionaires in san fransisco. These kids might be more inspired to just push through the bullshit instead.

Post: #3

Quote:What do you guys make of this incident? Two frustrated betas taking out their anger, bullying, or something else?

What I make of this is that there are lots of boys who do not belong in education. They were not meant to be there, they lack the educational temperant for rigorous classroom study, or they haven't developed the social acumen to survive in a school setting.

No matter how you look at it, forcing all boys to go school is inhumane. They shouldn't be forced to go and drugged up when they fail to obey.

So when you see school shootings it's really just an animal that was forced into a cage he didn't want to be in, lashing out.

Post: #4

(04-10-2014 03:55 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:What do you guys make of this incident? Two frustrated betas taking out their anger, bullying, or something else?

What I make of this is that there are lots of boys who do not belong in education. They were not meant to be there, they lack the educational temperant for rigorous classroom study, or they haven't developed the social acumen to survive in a school setting.

No matter how you look at it, forcing all boys to go school is inhumane. They shouldn't be forced to go and drugged up when they fail to obey.

So when you see school shootings it's really just an animal that was forced into a cage he didn't want to be in, lashing out.

"They shouldn't be forced to go and drugged up when they fail to obey."

As far as I know, both these kids were, in fact, on psychotropic drugs, which probably added to their delusions, which is (IMO) why we started to see large scale school violence increase after the Ritalin-Prozac era.

It's ironic. In the '70s, the Greatest Generation-Nixon crowd warned kids that drugs like pot would make them psychotic. Yet a decade later, no one raised an eyebrow when we started drugging boys en masse in schools.

Didn't anyone think that if the Evil Weed could mess brains up (and it can screw up teens' brains) that powerful pharmaceuticals could do even worse?

I don't doubt that at least one of these two -- Eric Harris -- was already pretty disturbed mentally. But throwing a drug cocktail at them both, IMO, was like lighting a fuse.

Post: #5

What was once unimaginable, has now become almost routine.

Our senses are by now dulled to the shocking nature of these crimes by minors against minors, and what is says about us, our society, our civilization.

If we could speak the truth, we would see these acts for what they are: proof of complete moral, familial, and disciplainary breakdown. If this country had any shred of dignity or honesty left, it would seek to address the root causes--as opposed to the imaginary causes--of these atrocities. But it will not.

And we all know it.

.

Post: #6

(04-10-2014 03:55 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:What do you guys make of this incident? Two frustrated betas taking out their anger, bullying, or something else?

What I make of this is that there are lots of boys who do not belong in education. They were not meant to be there, they lack the educational temperant for rigorous classroom study, or they haven't developed the social acumen to survive in a school setting.

No matter how you look at it, forcing all boys to go school is inhumane. They shouldn't be forced to go and drugged up when they fail to obey.

So when you see school shootings it's really just an animal that was forced into a cage he didn't want to be in, lashing out.

Tbh, school massacres (by students) is an American phenomena. By seeing how things actually work in USA - educational process there can be torturous for some. I don't know why is environment so unforgiving in American schools.

I personally blame suburbs, overly competitive atmosphere, kids that are not raised to be polite, humane and reasonable, only successful, and staff that basically see kids as merchandise. I dunno, I'm just guessing.

Here where i live, there wasn't a single recorded school massacre ever. But every kid no matter what, can go to school and behave normally. Why there is such big occurrence of massacres in America is something that needs deeeeep deep research and a proper solution.

Post: #7

There isn't a big occurrence of school massacres in the US.

Post: #8

People are like goldfish. You can get their attention temporarily by waving something shiny in their face. But 5 minutes later it's forgotten and they're after something new.

Nobody cares about Columbine anymore. Nobody cares about the brothers that bombed the Boston marathon either.

We're the products of consumer culture. Always looking towards something newer and shinier.

These Columbine kids essentially recreated the Matrix scene where Neo and Trinity shoot up the whole building to rescue Morpheus. It's actually my favorite part of the movie.

Post: #9

(04-10-2014 04:08 PM)Orion Wrote:  Tbh, school massacres (by students) is an American phenomena.

Not true anymore.

Post: #10

Actually, Columbine was the first of these and it really freaked people out when it happened.

There were a bunch of movies made about this incident as well.

Post: #11

Orion, here's another puzzler for you: why does so much of this stuff happen in Colorado? Columbine, Arapahoe HS last year, Bailey HS a few years ago, James Holmes in the Aurora movie theater... I'm probably forgetting some. Then there's Jon Benet, the Lindbergh baby of this generation, except that unlike with Lindbergh, nobody will ever be charged in that one.

Here's one thing I think: like 9/11 with air travel, it changed the game. We've had metal detectors and police in schools (at least inner city ones) since the 80's. We've had kids show up at school with a gun, and even shoot someone. But these guys prepared, they came in heavily armed, with pipe bombs to boot. After that, these mass murders all took on that tone - lots of guns, body armor, lots of ammo, lots of preparation. School shootings are no longer crimes of passion.

Back to Orion's point.

Quote:blame suburbs, overly competitive atmosphere, kids that are not raised to be polite, humane and reasonable, only successful, and staff that basically see kids as merchandise

Everything you list off is something I see in Colorado's educational system. It's an open enrollment system, which means that schools compete amongst themselves for students. Choosing a middle school is like picking a college. The local Arts magnet school attracts kids from across the state and even out of state. Colorado was one of the models for NCLB - the annual CSAP test in particular. The system is extremely punitive to schools that fall below standard and the pressure on staff and administration to test well is enormous. Like every school, there's superficial attention given to ethics and standards of behavior, but kids are not idiots - they can see where the adults put the emphasis and easily see through to the underlying agenda.

Couple quick hits relating to the points about psychotropics http://psychiatricfraud.org/2011/04/the-...-violence/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...ath.2.html

The Slate article in particular, look on page 2 at the top. Harris is like a completely deranged Holden Caufield.

Post: #12

(04-10-2014 04:17 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  There isn't a big occurrence of school massacres in the US.

Just a handful a year. Fuck the kids, should have stayed home that day

Obviously, I am kidding, in poor taste maybe. But I think there are plenty of kids dying in school.

Now don't get me wrong, most kids will become worthless adults but still they are young and not fully aware yet. Most will never be important to society, but they are still important to their parents (well most parents).

Post: #13

(04-10-2014 04:27 PM)RockHard Wrote:  but kids are not idiots - they can see where the adults put the emphasis and easily see through to the underlying agenda.

Very well put. We must not ever forget that children copy our behavior, or do exact opposite of us, if they find our role model impossible to comply with.

Post: #14

I would second the impact of antidepressants and other psychiatric and non psychiatric pharmaceuticals. These drugs are not the only novel chemicals that we are pumping into our bodies. The following research should be read by every guy on this site and beyond.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15736917

Full study:

http://www.freewebs.com/fryoung/LA_Homic...n_2004.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_acid

Linoleic acid is present in high concentrations in processed food because it uses vegetable oils(canola, soy, etc) instead of the more traditional fats. It throws off the omega 3: omega 6 ratio in the diet and causes all sorts of problems including, it seems, causing people to kill each other at a higher rate. It most likely increases impulsiveness and decreases positivity of mood. Also whenever you eat something that has been deep fried you are consuming a high dose of linoleic acid. The antidote to this is to cut out fried foods and eat a pack of sardines or a filet of wild salmon once a day for a couple of weeks to even out the ratio a bit.

Post: #15

The first school shooting I heard about was this one by this crazy bitch.

It was in 1979. I was young and in elementary school in San Diego. It was a nutty day. I didn't go to this school, but we got out early that day anyway.

The Boomtown Rat's song "I don't like Monday's" was written about Brenda Spencer's answer to why she did it.

Post: #16

(04-10-2014 07:40 PM)HeyPete Wrote:  The first school shooting I heard about was this one by this crazy bitch.

It was in 1979. I was young and in elementary school in San Diego. It was a nutty day. I didn't go to this school, but we got out early that day anyway.

The Boomtown Rat's song "I don't like Monday's" was written about Brenda Spencer's answer to why she did it.

I've seen a documentary on this, its an amazing story and the girl was an amazing shot.

I don't consider it the 'same' though, as it was a teenager shooting up a playground from her home because she felt like it. It wasn't like she was actively plotting revenge against her classmates.

Post: #17

(04-10-2014 04:19 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  People are like goldfish. You can get their attention temporarily by waving something shiny in their face. But 5 minutes later it's forgotten and they're after something new.

Nobody cares about Columbine anymore. Nobody cares about the brothers that bombed the Boston marathon either.

We're the products of consumer culture. Always looking towards something newer and shinier.

These Columbine kids essentially recreated the Matrix scene where Neo and Trinity shoot up the whole building to rescue Morpheus. It's actually my favorite part of the movie.

Not sure if proving point

or getting side tracked

Post: #18

(04-10-2014 04:04 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  What was once unimaginable, has now become almost routine.

Our senses are by now dulled to the shocking nature of these crimes by minors against minors, and what is says about us, our society, our civilization.

If we could speak the truth, we would see these acts for what they are: proof of complete moral, familial, and disciplainary breakdown. If this country had any shred of dignity or honesty left, it would seek to address the root causes--as opposed to the imaginary causes--of these atrocities. But it will not.

And we all know it.

.

QC, in what world is there a "complete moral, familial and disciplinary breakdown"? You can maybe say this about Sierra Leone in '98 or the Congo not long ago, and even then it would be a stretch. To say this about the US today is an absurd exaggeration.

People like to talk about "root causes" of this or that but sometimes the only root cause is an individual human being. I happen to know quite a bit about Columbine, and the story there is that Eric Harris was simply a bad seed. He came from a perfectly normal and decent family but he was drawn to evil and murder from his earliest days; he was a relishing and practiced liar and manipulator of people including adults much older than himself, and his only real interest from a quite young age was causing as much death and destruction as possible. He was, in fact, a parody example of a "sociopath" and although that is a much overused term that is cantingly applied left and right, it does have a meaning and Eric Harris could be its poster child.

It is even possible to speculate that the Columbine shooting may have saved lives in the long term, because if Harris had not been so impatient, he would have certainly gone on to become a serial killer and might well have gotten away with killing a much larger number of people than died in that shooting (few people know, incidentally, that Columbine was really a failed bombing attempt and Harris' hope was to murder hundreds or possibly thousands -- but the bombs failed to go off).

I don't know what this "says about us, our society, our civilization". How about nothing?

Post: #19

(04-10-2014 10:14 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(04-10-2014 04:04 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  What was once unimaginable, has now become almost routine.

Our senses are by now dulled to the shocking nature of these crimes by minors against minors, and what is says about us, our society, our civilization.

If we could speak the truth, we would see these acts for what they are: proof of complete moral, familial, and disciplainary breakdown. If this country had any shred of dignity or honesty left, it would seek to address the root causes--as opposed to the imaginary causes--of these atrocities. But it will not.

And we all know it.

.

QC, in what world is there a "complete moral, familial and disciplinary breakdown"? You can maybe say this about Sierra Leone in '98 or the Congo not long ago, and even then it would be a stretch. To say this about the US today is an absurd exaggeration.

People like to talk about "root causes" of this or that but sometimes the only root cause is an individual human being. I happen to know quite a bit about Columbine, and the story there is that Eric Harris was simply a bad seed. He came from a perfectly normal and decent family but he was drawn to evil and murder from his earliest days; he was a relishing and practiced liar and manipulator of people including adults much older than himself, and his only real interest from a quite young age was causing as much death and destruction as possible. He was, in fact, a parody example of a "sociopath" and although that is a much overused term that is cantingly applied left and right, it does have a meaning and Eric Harris could be its poster child.

It is even possible to speculate that the Columbine shooting may have saved lives in the long term, because if Harris had not been so impatient, he would have certainly gone on to become a serial killer and might well have gotten away with killing a much larger number of people than died in that shooting (few people know, incidentally, that Columbine was really a failed bombing attempt and Harris' hope was to murder hundreds or possibly thousands -- but the bombs failed to go off).

I don't know what this "says about us, our society, our civilization". How about nothing?

_______

L of Oz:

I'm willing to concede that there is a tendency to exaggerate the most horrible news incidents.

But even after making all allowances for literary hyperbole and news media distortion, can we really say that this atrocity, and any other mass school shooting (take your pick) says nothing about our society?

In what other country do minors have such easy access to such weaponry?

In what other First World country do we see this kind of social violence (outside of war)? Europe? No. Japan? No.

In what other country do we see this kind of violence just shrugged away as normal, much like the number of traffic deaths per year?

There have always been bad kids, bad seeds, bad apples. But this kind of thing never happened in the 1960s or 1970s. Because that was before the Nintendo generation. Before the total degradation of the popular culture here to an endless spectacle of violence, instant gratification, and disrespect for authority.

Because in America, it's all about greed and corporatism. The rich conglomerates are there to make money off us, and the public good be damned. Women have become "emancipated" (i.e., industrialized) to feed the corporate machine here. Women have been conned into accepting feminist bullshit. Children have become a target audience to market shit food, sugar, and crap to, so that they can be fat, obedient, compliant slaves.

And that's what it all comes down to. The social institutions in America have degraded and crumbled. Any possible check on man's base nature has been removed:

1. Religion used to be a tool to teach morality. The churches are no longer respected as institutions needed to pass on an ancient moral code to the younger generation.

2. Schools and teachers can't enforce meaningful discipline any more. Trouble makers in a healthy society would be beaten within an inch of their lives, as they should be.

3. Families have become a joke of single motherhood and wayward fathers.

4. American pop culture is a cesspool for the aggrandizement of white trash and black trash, who become ever more insolent with every passing year. Ignorance and criminality is praised in the music here. Stupidity and insolence are held out to be virtues, and every man imagines himself fit to sit in judgment on the traditions and heritage of the nation that may have taken centuries to build.

And this is why we are seeing a massive rise in government authoritarianism today. It has become necessary. As social institutions crumble, the government is forced to step in and maintain social order by coercion.

People forget that civilization has to be taught. Each generation has a responsibility to teach it to the younger one. It doesn't come naturally to man. Any break in that chain, and barbarism returns.

We are losing our liberties, our freedoms. And we deserve it. It goes back to the old Platonic cycle of democracy degenerating into anarchy, which then brings dictatorship.

.

Post: #20

(04-10-2014 03:18 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  What do you guys make of this incident? Two frustrated betas taking out their anger, bullying, or something else?

One of the best books I've ever read was Columbine by Dave Cullen. It reveals that Eric Harris, the leader of the pair, actually did alright with girls and was a clinical psychopath. Dylan Klebold however was a massive beta and very depressed. The two of them weren't as much victims of bullying than bullies themselves, especially Eric.

Columbine was never meant to primarily be a shooting, the huge bomb they tried to detonate in the cafeteria at the exact moment it was going to be most busy failed to go off.

Post: #21

(04-11-2014 01:08 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(04-10-2014 03:18 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  What do you guys make of this incident? Two frustrated betas taking out their anger, bullying, or something else?

One of the best books I've ever read was Columbine by Dave Cullen. It reveals that Eric Harris, the leader of the pair, actually did alright with girls and was a clinical psychopath. Dylan Klebold however was a massive beta and very depressed. The two of them weren't as much victims of bullying than bullies themselves, especially Eric.

Columbine was never meant to primarily be a shooting, the huge bomb they tried to detonate in the cafeteria at the exact moment it was going to be most busy failed to go off.

Deluge, interestingly enough, Ive read that book as well. It turns out Dave Cullen was somewhat full of shit. In fact, some of the victim's families have called him out on his version of the events. In addition, there's no way to know whether or not Eric Harris was a psychopath or not, since you cant perform a psychiatric evaluation postmortem.

Post: #22

I remember Marilyn Manson getting shit from everyone. Humans are animals. Fuck with any animal enough and its gonna defend itself.

Post: #23

(04-11-2014 01:13 AM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

(04-11-2014 01:08 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(04-10-2014 03:18 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  What do you guys make of this incident? Two frustrated betas taking out their anger, bullying, or something else?

One of the best books I've ever read was Columbine by Dave Cullen. It reveals that Eric Harris, the leader of the pair, actually did alright with girls and was a clinical psychopath. Dylan Klebold however was a massive beta and very depressed. The two of them weren't as much victims of bullying than bullies themselves, especially Eric.

Columbine was never meant to primarily be a shooting, the huge bomb they tried to detonate in the cafeteria at the exact moment it was going to be most busy failed to go off.

Deluge, interestingly enough, Ive read that book as well. It turns out Dave Cullen was somewhat full of shit. In fact, some of the victim's families have called him out on his version of the events. In addition, there's no way to know whether or not Eric Harris was a psychopath or not, since you cant perform a psychiatric evaluation postmortem.

I know families were angry with him for disproving the Christian martyr girl's story. Reviews of the book were extremely positive. If I recall correctly, Eric left a very detailed diary behind them which the FBI used to conclude he was a clear cut example of a psychopath.

EDIT: Here's an article about Columbine Dave Cullen wrote before he published the book: The Depressive and the Psychopath

Post: #24

^Just read that article. I get Cullen's point. Harris was a psycho and Klebold was his follower. Problem is nothing is that simple/black and white. I would recommend No Easy Answers by Brooks Brown, who was actually friends with both of the shooters. Cullen seems to have some sort of an agenda.

Post: #25

If the son was a sociopath, and the parents knew, then it came down to the father to beat some sense into him. Maybe the Dad was just a pussy whipped bitch and let things go out of control?