Post: #26

If you want to know about free will, read Daniel Dennett "Consciousness Explained", "Freedom Evolves", Douglass Hoffstader's "I Am a Strange Loop", and Lakoff's "Who's Freedom" and "Don't Think of an Elephant"

Post: #27

Resurrecting an old thread.

I heard someone ask if we we could predict the behavior of a dog with an advanced computer.

Inputting the dog's genes, environment, and anything it interacted with, could we predict what it would do?

I think many people would say yes.

With an even more advanced computer, couldn't we do this for humans?

Post: #28

(02-26-2016 10:29 PM)Lucky Wrote:  Resurrecting an old thread.

I heard someone ask if we we could predict the behavior of a dog with an advanced computer.

Inputting the dog's genes, environment, and anything it interacted with, could we predict what it would do?

I think many people would say yes.

With an even more advanced computer, couldn't we do this for humans?

You can do it for both.

But the problem with humans is that we have self autonomy where as a dog runs on instincts.

It would be easier to predict the actions of a dog because they don't have the same level consciousness that we do. Maybe a better comparison would be a cat.

Cat's don't care about anything except who is feeding them at that point in time and where the closest warm place is to sleep. I've managed to keep some relevance with the family cat by being the person that gives it the most intense pats.

Humans have the ability to self perceive. We have a conscience that effects our actions. A human can sit on the end of their bed at night and think to themselves "I had a good day today".

I think comparing humans to animals is travesty.

Post: #29

So if we can do it for both, meaning with an advanced enough computer we could predict your every movement, does that mean you have free will?

If we can only predict behavior, does that mean you still have free will?

What if we could only predict your thoughts?

Do we need to predict both before we dismantle the idea of free will completely?

I'm rambling here, a bit drunk. Curious what people think.

Post: #30

Very interesting Topic. Once must look out not to get too deep with this, or you will drive yourself nuts.

I came up with the following theory, concerning free will:

First of all, I am convinced, that "free will" should not be seen as a light Switch, but rather as a volume Controller. It's not that you have either free will or no free will. I would rather say, that some People have a higher Level of "free will" than others.

What would be the opposite of free will/what is the enemy of free will?
That would be acting 100% on our instincts, passions and desires. We would hardly act upon any Ration behaviour and refuse to engage in any reasoning/reflecting our own thoughts.

So the question should be: Are we able to surpress/weigh/Analyse our insticts, drives and urges? Are we able to Control our immediate Impulses?

My personal answer is clearly yes. You can see it when you are eating clean and refuse to engage in destrucitve habits, which offer instant gratification. Whenever you are choosing a Long-term-Goal over any immediate pleasures, you are making use of your reflecting capacity and therefore are a creature of "free will."

There are People who Claim, that every thought and every Emotion, which occurs in our mind, can be tracked down to complex neuro-chemical-reactions. This would mean that, if knowing all the variables, we should be able to predict each and every thought, behaviour, desire and Motivation.
Clearly, some of you should know, that the stuff you eat directly Impacts on the way you feel and in what state of mind you are.

We Need to ask ourselves: Are we a happy Person, because our physical genetics and the way we eat sum us up to a Person who is often happy? Are we just lucky?

I personally like to believe, that our "mind", our "self" our deepest "being" exists completely Independent of our physical Body. However, our physical Body and our brain influence this "self" and the "self" also influences our physical Body. It is a co-existing organism of the two components: Body and mind.

Free will, for me is: When you are sailing in a Little sailboat, on an ocean with often changing weather conditions and stream Forces, who are either working with or against you. We cannot help but be influenced a lot, but still: We are able to more or less direct our vessel through the storm (of life). We maybe don't get immediately to our Destination and reach our Goals, but we will get there eventually, if our deepest self maintains determined and focused. We have to learn to work downwind and upwind. Make use of the Cards we are dealt and eventually Change them.
The ocean represents our desires, our Impulses, if we're tired or exhausted, all external stuff, that's the ocean.


How much "free willed" the individual can be called is determined of how good of a sailor he is.

Post: #31

(07-17-2014 10:09 PM)monster Wrote:  related: /thread-37444.html

I agree with Schopenhauer:

"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills."

I see what I can do to improve my life, but I really struggle with procrastination. I've tried to force myself to be more active in pursuing my goals through shear willpower, but with limited success.

I've been trying to change my mindset, so I want to do the things I need to do, instead of having to force myself to do them

I've wondered if I have the right goals, and I think I do. I've tweaked them over the years to try to find something that naturally stimulated my drive, but I think the drive is a separate thing from the goals.

I already take testosterone, so I know that's not it. I think it's a factor of getting older, but I know that young people can have the same problem. I've made some progress in changing my mindset, but frankly, I'm looking for a break though in motivation, and haven't got there quite yet.

So, while I mostly agree with the quote, I think there is a limited ability for a man to control what he wills. It's not easy, but it is possible. I've done is a little, and I see a path to being able to do it more. I think this is a prime focus of mindset management.

Post: #32

Reflecting on my own life; I do not believe in free will. However I do perceive a spark which allows man the ability to change the factors which influence him. I'd explain it as the rush to investigate that which seems intuitive to you. With furthered education you will be cast down a different path than that which you were on previously.

Post: #33

I do believe in free will and the fact, that we have Control over our thoughts and life. If I would believe in something else, I think, that I would get depressed.

Post: #34

Wow, I was going through some angsty stuff when I made this thread. I now do believe in free-will. I think it's easy to misinterpret reality and concede that our actions are dictated by logic, emotions, and the seemingly overwhelming amount of reality that is out of our control, but that goes against intuition.

Sure, you can say that every action/reaction is traceable down to an event that's nothing more than another bind in a chain, but what's making the chain? Each new moment brings another bind in the chain and this new chain is brought on by the past and this past is a sum total of autonomous things interacting with each other, reacting to each other, on and on and on, bringing forth a new reality every moment.

I read Nargajuna's Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way, trans. by Gudo Nishijima & Brad Warner. Heavy stuff, but very illuminating. It dedicates a chapter on freewill and determinism. It's rather terse, but it gives you enough to work with.

Post: #35

At the end of the day, however complex the illusion may be, we are neurons, glia, and neurotransmitters with a host of other organic molecules that govern our behaviour. If a theoretical computer could be built, by far more advanced than anything we could fathom today, then yes, of course it's possible to predict any human perfectly based upon the molecular interactions at any instantaneous point in time, and thus all thoughts and actions (taking into account near infinite variables from the environment too).

The thing is though, once a computer reached that level, it would itself be akin to a demi-god, or god. It could no doubt rearrange atoms into new planets with a simple command from its administrator. So hypothetically, of course it is physically possible, but in reality the technology is far beyond us for now. Those however who doubt it could be theoretically possible, look at recent advancement in how we can now computationally model a nematode perfectly. From here on out, it's just the number of transistors and calculations that will hold us back.

Post: #36

I think what we perceive as free will is control over small day to day interactions, but a larger theme of our life is still predicated on a general theme.

For example, you may have picked one college over another, but even then you may still have ended up in the same job with slightly different experiences leading to the same conclusion.

Post: #37

I wrote already that we don´t have free will. Though I believe that in our daily lives we act like we have free will. When I look at cats and birds they appear to have much more free will than humans. We have to be filled with 20 years of "knowledge" so that we can act "smart" and "logic". We are supposed to do the "right" thing work our asses off and develope technology to go to far away star systems.

That is probably the reason why cat videos may be so fascinationg. One part of us is jelous of their playfullness and not giving a fuck about anything and still looking awesome.

Post: #38

We don't have free will. There is no soul. It's just nuts and bolts of the brain and boils down to physics. We make decisions before we are even conscious of them.

Everything in one individual is not predetermined though. Our brain chances with inputs from the environment so our decisions chance as well.

That's why it's good to hold criminals responsible for they actions even though they had no "free will" in deciding to commit the crimes.