Post: #1

I did a search but couldn't find a thread on this. Please close if this is a dupe.

Looks like Israel hit a UN school today, killing at least 15:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/20...ve-updates

I can't see this current assault by Israel favouring them in the long term. If anything it's going to be a huge recruitment drive for Hamas, considering the amount of civilian casualties thus far in Gaza.

Thoughts?

Post: #2

I'm no fan of Hamas, but Israel is going off the rails with this one and is definitely in the wrong. In a just world, they would face consequences from the international community.

Post: #3

Yeah I was surprised that there wasn't a thread about Israel. I guess the airplane incident distracted everyone.

Quote:After 17 days of bloodshed in Gaza, the Palestinian death toll has reached 718.

The Israeli army has said that three more soldiers were killed in combat inside Gaza on Wednesday, raising the total number of soldiers killed since the start of a ground operation on July 17 to 32.

The Palestinian count is mostly civilians as well. Many more are losing their homes to the bombing.
---------------------------------------------------------

Israeli's war crimes continue to go unpunished. Israeli's citizens are safe behind the Iron Dome missile defense system while Palestinians continue to get their land taken away and their communities destroyed.

A good link about the conflict for anyone that is confused: http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5902177/9-q...u-were-too

TLDR;Israel is trying to take over the whole area, no matter the consequences to the millions of Palestinian refugees.

Peace is also not an option as the West bank is losing more and more territory to Israeli communities that are past the border line. Both areas are like open air prisons.

Post: #4

Vicious cycle 101. Israel attacks Gaza/West Bank. Kills civilians. Remaining civilians flock to Hamas to fight back. Hamas remains in power. Hamas fires rockets or detonates suicide bombers. Israel claims need to defend itself. Israelis continue to elect hard-right politicians to defend them from Gaza/West Bank attacks. Israel attacks back. Civilians killed... On and on.

Those in power continue to stay in power. Hamas needs hard right Israeli government. Hard-right Israeli government needs Hamas.

Post: #5

Israel is making a COLOSSAL mistake here. This shit will only create more suicide bombers. They never learn.

Post: #6

The killings of these civilians is a shame for Israel but an ever greater shame for the Hamas fascists who openly admit they use civilians and children as human childs and are proud of that fact.

The cycle of violence will in the long run exhaust and rob both sides of any empathy for another (it has already). Fact is, Israel can only lose no matter what they do. If they don't shoot back when their territory gets attacked, the Islamists and enemy states mock them as a paper tiger, that is only dependent on Uncle Sam and cannot defend itself. If they shoot back, they get defamed as child murderers.

What many people forget is that the Hamas rocket shootings only started AFTER Israel responded to international pressure and pulled out off Gaza in 2005, using tanks against their own citizens while dismantling Jewish settlements. In other words: More than 20 years of occupation in Palestine Gaza had ended and Hamas had nothing better to do than thanking the receding Israelis by sending missiles on civilians.

The uncritical pro-Palestine atmosphere on the streets and on social media in these days sickens me. Neo-nazis, left-wing radicals and Islamists united in their hatred of Israel. Where were these people when the Assad regime killed thousands of Palestinians and left more than 200.000 Palestinian refugees in the Syrian War? Apparently, Palestinians killed by other Muslims aren't worth the protest while Palestinians being killed by Jews are. Antisemitic hypocrites, nothing more.

And honestly, are the current developments really surprising? NO government in the world would in the long-term tolerate the attack on its territory. If some crazy militia hiding in Tijuana would shoot missiles into California over the course of many years, I guess everyone here would support a military strike by the US Army.

Post: #7

To be honest, I absolutely never really understood this conflict. Why are they attacking each other again?

Post: #8

(07-24-2014 11:46 AM)MidWest Wrote:  To be honest, I absolutely never really understood this conflict. Why are they attacking each other again?

I am not an expert but on the surface it seems to be a religious conflict.

Gaza is Islam, Israel is Jewish. Hamas from Gaza fires missiles into Israel.

From the wiki:

Hamas was founded to liberate Palestine from Israeli occupation and to establish an Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.

Post: #9

(07-24-2014 11:46 AM)MidWest Wrote:  To be honest, I absolutely never really understood this conflict. Why are they attacking each other again?

Post: #10

(07-24-2014 11:45 AM)Flint Wrote:  The uncritical pro-Palestine atmosphere on the streets and on social media in these days sickens me. Neo-nazis, left-wing radicals and Islamists united in their hatred of Israel. Where were these people when the Assad regime killed thousands of Palestinians and left more than 200.000 Palestinian refugees in the Syrian War? Apparently, Palestinians killed by other Muslims aren't worth the protest while Palestinians being killed by Jews are. Antisemitic hypocrites, nothing more.

And honestly, are the current developments really surprising? NO government in the world would in the long-term tolerate the attack on its territory. If some crazy militia hiding in Tijuana would shoot missiles into California over the course of many years, I guess everyone here would support a military strike by the US Army.

This is ridiculous on so many levels. Palestinians have no country. They have nothing to call their own land. They don't exist as a country.

Israelites keep crossing the border of West Bank and keep on establishing communities in land that isn't theirs. Then they have the Israeli army defend them.

The American media is literally all pro-Israel.

All I see on social media is people questioning Israel's actions and this literally has nothing to do with being "anti-Semitic"

Your post is a perfect example of the don't talk about the Jews" culture we live in. if anyone so much as say anything against Israel or Jews in general, they get blacklisted and attacked in every way.

There are over 7 million Palestinian refugees with no land to call their home.

Gaza and West Bank are both surrounded by Israeli military blockades, and their economy is suffering severely due to this.

Like I said earlier, it's an open air prison. It's not a way to live. When the United States stops vetoing the UN vote to make Palestine a recognized state with actual borders and a land to call their own, then maybe finally Hamas will stop trying to fight for their people's freedom.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are losing their homes and Israelites are living peacefully in their Iron-dome defended country.

Palestinians being peaceful doesn't work either. They still have no country and the Israelites keep crossing the border to establish more and more communities.

Also,the Palestinians have FAR more casualties and damages to property.

Post: #11

(07-24-2014 11:45 AM)Flint Wrote:  The killings of these civilians is a shame for Israel but an ever greater shame for the Hamas fascists who openly admit they use civilians and children as human childs and are proud of that fact.

The cycle of violence will in the long run exhaust and rob both sides of any empathy for another (it has already). Fact is, Israel can only lose no matter what they do. If they don't shoot back when their territory gets attacked, the Islamists and enemy states mock them as a paper tiger, that is only dependent on Uncle Sam and cannot defend itself. If they shoot back, they get defamed as child murderers.

What many people forget is that the Hamas rocket shootings only started AFTER Israel responded to international pressure and pulled out off Gaza in 2005, using tanks against their own citizens while dismantling Jewish settlements. In other words: More than 20 years of occupation in Palestine Gaza had ended and Hamas had nothing better to do than thanking the receding Israelis by sending missiles on civilians.

The uncritical pro-Palestine atmosphere on the streets and on social media in these days sickens me. Neo-nazis, left-wing radicals and Islamists united in their hatred of Israel. Where were these people when the Assad regime killed thousands of Palestinians and left more than 200.000 Palestinian refugees in the Syrian War? Apparently, Palestinians killed by other Muslims aren't worth the protest while Palestinians being killed by Jews are. Antisemitic hypocrites, nothing more.

And honestly, are the current developments really surprising? NO government in the world would in the long-term tolerate the attack on its territory. If some crazy militia hiding in Tijuana would shoot missiles into California over the course of many years, I guess everyone here would support a military strike by the US Army.

While there have been some despicable anti-semitic protests in some parts of Europe over the past week, being anti-Israel in this instance does not mean you are anti-semitic.

I see far too many accusations of this when one criticizes Israel.

It's like the feminist calling you a 'misogynist' because you disagree with her.

Post: #12

(07-24-2014 11:53 AM)JayNull Wrote:  

(07-24-2014 11:46 AM)MidWest Wrote:  To be honest, I absolutely never really understood this conflict. Why are they attacking each other again?

A lot of important bits missing for that video. Plus they leave out the fact that British Palestine was established prior to the State of Israel back in 1923. After Britain became bored of the region and did not want to deal with it any longer it kinda of put it up for grabs and it was during this time where Israel with aid from Britain and other West powers, the UN helped to establish Israel as a State in 1947. Also left out is the other conflicts between the Arabs and the Jews, especially 1967 which set the situation to today more-so then anything in the first war in 1948. The October War/Yom Kippur War of 1973 laid the groundwork to the current illegal occupation which the video failed to mention explicitly. This occupation lead to the establishment and empowerment of Hammas in the most dis-enfranchised part of Palestine in Gaza.

Regardless of ones views on Hammas, they run Gaza legally as the elected leaders of that region. Any State, even without international "acceptance" and legality can still uphold the rule of law and its own security. The PLO has shown the inability to do this, and continues to show its inability to be nothing more then puppets in suits for Tel Aviv. Both Israel and the people of Gaza are entitled to this right, but one side is the aggressor, while one is defender of its land. These things need to be made more clear when explaining and discussing the conflict.

Post: #13

Hamas recruitment doesnt really effect Srael. They have the Gaza strip so tightly locked down, and Iron Dome is so effective, that Hamas really poses no threat to Israels actual safety. If they wanted to carry on this way forever, they could.

Chile and Bolivia have now cut ties with Israel over this though. I dont know if Israel really cares...

Post: #14

(07-24-2014 01:23 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Hamas recruitment doesnt really effect Srael. They have the Gaza strip so tightly locked down, and Iron Dome is so effective, that Hamas really poses no threat to Israels actual safety. If they wanted to carry on this way forever, they could.

Chile and Bolivia have now cut ties with Israel over this though. I dont know if Israel really cares...

If there is a return of suicide bombing I think it will greatly effect Israel.

Post: #15

Why can't the Palestinians take a Gandhi-like approach to resistance, while at the same time developing Gaza as a resort location and tax shelter? Why can't it be the Middle Eastern Monaco? I understand all of the old grievances about stolen land, but guess what, they're not getting it back. Why can't countries (or whatever it is) take the red pill as well?

Post: #16

(07-24-2014 01:44 PM)Menace Wrote:  Why can't the Palestinians take a Gandhi-like approach to resistance, while at the same time developing Gaza as a resort location and tax shelter? Why can't it be the Middle Eastern Monaco? I understand all of the old grievances about stolen land, but guess what, they're not getting it back. Why can't countries (or whatever it is) take the red pill as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

Post: #17

NY Digital,

you did not understand the gist of my post nor did you respond to the issues that I raised.

I'm not saying being pro-Palestine and criticizing Israel is per se antisemitic. On the contrary, I think it is totally legitimate to highlight the suffering of Palestinian civilians. Every country that wages war should be monitored by the public and called out for bad actions.

What I'm criticizing is THE WAY many people are now condemning Israel and singling it out as the sole aggressor in this conflict. Israel has pulled out off Gaza almost ten years ago. Nonetheless, Hamas has constantly been sending missiles to Israel even though there has not been a direct military threat by the IDF (except defense actions that targeted Hamas bases).

Since the Syrian War has begun, many more thousands Palestinians who live there have suffered (expelled and killed) under the Assad regime. Palestinians who live under terrible conditions in refugee camps in Lebanon have no opportunity to gain Lebanese citizenship. The blockade of Gaza is not only Israel's but also Egypt's responsibility.

Now, I ask you: When you have so many various actors who are no better than Israel (and mostly they are objectively worse), why do these people only go nuts when Israel shoots and disenfranchises Palestinians? Why do you never see pro-Palestinian activists who burn Syrian, Lebanese and Egyptian flags at protests? My conclusion: It's not about caring about Palestinians, but being anti-Israel in the first place.

The antisemitism is not necessarily part of all this but in these days it is. In Germany and France, pro-Palestinian protesters have attacked synagogues and individual Jews who bear no responsibility for the actions of the Israeli government. They wave antisemitic caricatures on cardboards and shout slogans like "Hamas, Hamas, Jews into the gas" (as happened in Berlin recently). I don't make this up, it happened frequently and not only in isolated incidents. I can give you sources, if you wish so.

Post: #18

Don't fight the biggest guy in the room when you're a malnourished stick if you want to win. Hamas knows that the more Gazans that die the bigger the black eye Israel gets despite the more than obvious justification Israel has for pounding the ever-loving shit out of Hamas.

Its a game constantly played out by ever militant/terror group with bigger guns in their face. If you can't beat them, shame them.

Post: #19

Quote:A lot of important bits missing for that video. Plus they leave out the fact that British Palestine was established prior to the State of Israel back in 1923. After Britain became bored of the region and did not want to deal with it any longer it kinda of put it up for grabs and it was during this time where Israel with aid from Britain and other West powers, the UN helped to establish Israel as a State in 1947. Also left out is the other conflicts between the Arabs and the Jews, especially 1967 which set the situation to today more-so then anything in the first war in 1948. The October War/Yom Kippur War of 1973 laid the groundwork to the current illegal occupation which the video failed to mention explicitly. This occupation lead to the establishment and empowerment of Hammas in the most dis-enfranchised part of Palestine in Gaza.

Regardless of ones views on Hammas, they run Gaza legally as the elected leaders of that region. Any State, even without international "acceptance" and legality can still uphold the rule of law and its own security. The PLO has shown the inability to do this, and continues to show its inability to be nothing more then puppets in suits for Tel Aviv. Both Israel and the people of Gaza are entitled to this right, but one side is the aggressor, while one is defender of its land. These things need to be made more clear when explaining and discussing the conflict.

Yeah I was curious why the Yom Kippur War wasn't mentioned. You're right, there are a lot of missing details in the video but considering it was only 4 minutes long, it does give a general idea of the conflict to someone who doesn't know much about the history and likely won't research the topic.

Of the 700+ Palestinians killed how many were actually Hamas soldiers or affiliates? I find it extremely difficult to understand how Israel can justify the number of civilian casualties.

Post: #20

(07-24-2014 11:46 AM)MidWest Wrote:  To be honest, I absolutely never really understood this conflict. Why are they attacking each other again?

This decades old conflict has very little to do with religion though that's what is mostly promulgated by the media. What it all boils down to at the end of the day is the State of Israel wanting to expand their territory to make room for new Jewish settlements. The problem is, you have the Palestinians in the way, so the militant Zionists are trying to make life so difficult and so dangerous for Palestinians they just leave on their own. In a sense the Israelis are engaged in ethnic cleansing trying to make room for their own kind. No matter what race or religion you are, if you live in the Palestinian Territories you are a target. Palestinian Christians get slaughtered just like Palestinian Muslims which is something the Israeli worshipping Christian evangelists never seem to mention.

Prior to the 1940's Jews, Christians and Arabs lived for the most part in peace until Anglo and Zionist vultures started swooping in. A little known fact about the creation of Israel was that Hitler played a major role, which we never hear about but drastically makes you see things differently about the Zionists and Israel. Rather than explain, here's a BookTV clip detailing what was known as "The Transfer Agreement". The book is terrific.






"These are facts. Historical facts. Not schoolbook history, not Mr. Wells's history, but history nonetheless." Kasper Gutman, "The Maltese Falcon"

Post: #21

30/32 Israeli's killed are soldiers yet 70-80% of the Palestinians killed are civilians. If Israel wanted to get rid of Hamas why not get them in Qatar? We know they've sent Mossad agents to kill soldiers that were involved int he holocaust so why not do the same with Hamas?

“The object of terrorism is terrorism. The object of oppression is oppression. The object of torture is torture. The object of murder is murder. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?” -George Orwell

Post: #22

(07-24-2014 02:07 PM)Flint Wrote:  NY Digital,

you did not understand the gist of my post nor did you respond to the issues that I raised.

I'm not saying being pro-Palestine and criticizing Israel is per se antisemitic. On the contrary, I think it is totally legitimate to highlight the suffering of Palestinian civilians. Every country that wages war should be monitored by the public and called out for bad actions.

What I'm criticizing is THE WAY many people are now condemning Israel and singling it out as the sole aggressor in this conflict. Israel has pulled out off Gaza almost ten years ago. Nonetheless, Hamas has constantly been sending missiles to Israel even though there has not been a direct military threat by the IDF (except defense actions that targeted Hamas bases).

Since the Syrian War has begun, many more thousands Palestinians who live there have suffered (expelled and killed) under the Assad regime. Palestinians who live under terrible conditions in refugee camps in Lebanon have no opportunity to gain Lebanese citizenship. The blockade of Gaza is not only Israel's but also Egypt's responsibility.

Now, I ask you: When you have so many various actors who are no better than Israel (and mostly they are objectively worse), why do these people only go nuts when Israel shoots and disenfranchises Palestinians? Why do you never see pro-Palestinian activists who burn Syrian, Lebanese and Egyptian flags at protests? My conclusion: It's not about caring about Palestinians, but being anti-Israel in the first place.

The antisemitism is not necessarily part of all this but in these days it is. In Germany and France, pro-Palestinian protesters have attacked synagogues and individual Jews who bear no responsibility for the actions of the Israeli government. They wave antisemitic caricatures on cardboards and shout slogans like "Hamas, Hamas, Jews into the gas" (as happened in Berlin recently). I don't make this up, it happened frequently and not only in isolated incidents. I can give you sources, if you wish so.

1) "Those missiles" land in open areas and are bottle rockets.
2) Why are we (Americans) funding the Iron Dome if it can't even take out simple bottle rockets?
3) You conveniently left out Arab Jews are also protesting; In the IDF Jews from Arab countries are not allowed to get into the elite ranks (screening).
4) Egypt, Lebanon, ETC aren't bombing hospitals, homes for the disabled, schools, and houses.
5) By definition of the word "antisemitic" today, god and most of the biblical prophets would be classified as antisemitic.

You're crying about people condemning Israel and to summarize your post not being fair; Yet you conveniently leave out the racist Israeli protests.

Edit: Both sides are too blame but I don't see what killing children has to do with taking out hamas especially since its leaders are in Qatar.

Honestly, I think Israel is sending a message to ISIS and other militias like it because sometime in the near future, they could decide target Israel.

Post: #23

(07-24-2014 02:07 PM)Flint Wrote:  What I'm criticizing is THE WAY many people are now condemning Israel and singling it out as the sole aggressor in this conflict. Israel has pulled out off Gaza almost ten years ago. Nonetheless, Hamas has constantly been sending missiles to Israel even though there has not been a direct military threat by the IDF (except defense actions that targeted Hamas bases).

They're called 'rockets.'

You're comparing Hamas's homemade unguided rockets, that lack warheads(some would say toys), and explode into the desert inflicting zero casualties.


To Israel's laser guided MISSILES, carrying massive warheads into densely populated civil areas.

Pic is of the damage caused by an air-to-surface missile(750lb warhead). It leveled a three
story building killing two dozens of people in the process, and injuring many more innocent civilians

The quantitative difference cannot be overlooked here.

Post: #24

Jews and Muslims, two ethnic groups that have been in conflict since the beginning of recorded history.

This is not stopping any time soon.

20 years or so ago when I started getting interested in this conflict I believed, like everyone else in the west, that this was about Palestine vs Israel.

In reality it's the Muslim world vs Israel with Palestinians caught in the crossfire.
Like Kurds, no one on either side cares much for Palestinians.

Post: #25

(07-24-2014 10:50 AM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  Israel is making a COLOSSAL mistake here. This shit will only create more suicide bombers. They never learn.

Do you honestly believe that the suicide bombings and rocket attacks would stop if Israel didn't attack?