Post: #1

He was supposed to email it to his accountant but he accidentally sent it to the team. And we all discovered I make the lowest and they all make 1.5x-2x more. Granted, they have 3-4 more years experience than me but we are all relatively new in the company and have the same positions. I checked Glassdoor before I gave my asking price and got more but apparently they negotiated way, way higher. So should I bring this up to my boss after 6 mos and ask for a raise? If you guys are in the same situation, what would your mindset be?

Post: #2

(07-29-2014 10:00 AM)Turbo Wrote:  He was supposed to email it to his accountant but he accidentally sent it to the team. And we all discovered I make the lowest and they all make 1.5x-2x more. Granted, they have 3-4 more years experience than me but we are all relatively new in the company and have the same positions. I checked Glassdoor before I gave my asking price and got more but apparently they negotiated way, way higher. So should I bring this up to my boss after 6 mos and ask for a raise? If you guys are in the same situation, what would your mindset be?

I'd go hard into jockeying for position.
Overwork and upstage (if possible, depends on field and expectations) for a period, like you said, of 6 months or so. Save the email and use it as leverage when you go for the rate hike.

That's just me though. I always go with the "make yourself undeniable" approach.

Post: #3

(07-29-2014 10:10 AM)Slick Shimmer Wrote:  I'd go hard into jockeying for position.
Overwork and upstage (if possible, depends on field and expectations) for a period, like you said, of 6 months or so. Save the email and use it as leverage when you go for the rate hike.

That's just me though. I always go with the "make yourself undeniable" approach.

The boss knows and he apologized that he sent the wrong email. I was thinking about the overworking approach, going to work early and leaving late but it also gives me less time to work on my own side business. I haven't really started a side business but I have some ideas but now, the competitor in me makes me want to compete for more salary. Im kinda torn now and dissatisfied because of the incident. I guess it's really better not knowing

Post: #4

Dude, just work harder and meet your metrics or whatever rating system your company uses for performance. Demonstrate your value and dont worry about what they earn, their seniority, etc
This is giving your full attention to something that is out of your hands. Whatever ways they used to get a higher salary, kudos to them. You will use it next time with your boss, showing him that you did your work and more, that you have great energy and attitude and that you are worthy of any raise he has in mind. DOnt overdo by staying later unless is a must due to business reasons, etc but hardly to impress him
dont go earlier either unless is for business reasons. You wont get a golden medal for that. Just do your best and earn experience for the next job. Thinking about what others make every month is like poisoning your self. I would concentrate on getting a better salary and dont use the email for future pitching. Just make your job, get it done nicely, have office buddies complimenting you for any help you gave them on work issues so attitude also counts for a raise. If this doesnt work, then study some other thing, dedicate time for personal growth and or business and whenever the time comes either have them kicking u out or move to another job, with more money and better atmosphere.

Cheers

Post: #5

Does your boss actually set pay or is that done by a different department or some sort of hideous bureaucratic process?

If the part about "sending it the accountant" means that he owns the company, then he really screwed up. The rest is in your court, do you ask him about it or not?

Post: #6

As an employer this happened to me once. We terminated someone in the accounting department and they sent a mass e-mail with everyone's salary to the entire company. It's amazing how people can be very happy working for you one day and the next be miserable just because they know someone is making more than them. We lost quite a few good people from that.

I would suggest that you first be sure your boss knows that you would never disclose the accidental information. I wouldn't bring it up again to him directly. When it's time for your performance review you could bring up how you feel that you're performing at a level that's similar to some of the more experienced employees. If he's a good manager he won't easily forget that you saved his ass. Just don't make a big point of it.

Post: #7

Just work hard and the money will come.
I know people I work with make more than me, I don't worry about them though. I just work hard and continue to gain experience.
Do what you feel is going to help you in the long run. I just got a huge bump in my salary by switching to a company that was actively recruiting me based on my work ethic.

Post: #8

This should be fuel for your motivation.

Post: #9

Quote:Just work hard and the money will come.

Should say:

Quote:Just work hard and the money will come for your employer.

No one but you can guarantee you get paid the proper amount.

Post: #10

(07-29-2014 05:58 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:Just work hard and the money will come.

Should say:

Quote:Just work hard and the money will come for your employer.

No one but you can guarantee you get paid the proper amount.

Agree with that. There's the line in the airline magazine ads for that negotiation seminar: you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

I'm going with a 3 prong approach:
1. Work hard & demonstrate value. It's easy to get butthurt, like Gringuito said, finding out everyone's salaries destroys morale. There are studies on this. Open salary info is a terrible idea. I have no idea how pro sports can keep going. Your boss should appreciate that you're taking the positive route and using this as motivation, not de-motivation. If he doesn't, then he doesn't appreciate you.
2. After a certain point in time, like your next review, bring it up with your boss. Understand he's in a sensitive spot. Don't back him to a wall, but say, "look, I feel seriously underpaid, what can we do about this?"
3. Look into other options. You should be interviewing at least. Your own gig would be great but I understand it's hard to get started. It's just like with girls: the person with the most leverage is the one with the best options.

Post: #11

I would say never work hard because of what another employee is making.

Work hard if it is making you more valuable either for your own future business or your industry.

This little tale lets you know how the owners buy their new car or make an investment in growing their company.

Work your way to owning. You want to be the guy getting away with offering half to others.
Not trying to prove yourself to the boss like you are starring in Rudy.

Post: #12

Make it so they cant afford to lose you. Search for and apply to other jobs that pay the same or more (or offer better benefits). If you have an offer, politely talk to your boss about your future with the company. Or just give whatever standard notice is, and then if they want to talk about it, there is your opening to negotiate an increase or some other benefit.

Once I felt highly underappreciated at work and as my frustration grew, I typed up a two weeks notice, but didnt sign it. I showed an envelope to my manager, and a week later I was offered a better position. Doing this is a huge technical risk on paper, but I knew that I was indispensable and with recent personnel losses, they wouldnt want to lose one of, if not, the best. While I am a bit pissed I had to do this, I feel kind of awesome for being ballsy and effectively threatening a manager. Many employers will fire you on the spot if you do this, which is why I say make sure you are unfireable.

Economically speaking, some people are willing to work for less than others. Think of it like a sale that you missed out on last week. Next time, go harder for it.

Post: #13

Be so good they can't ignore you

Post: #14

I would have walked out as soon as I read the email and waited for them to come to me.

Post: #15

this question is impossible to answer without knowing a lot more information. what field are you in? are you a cost center or revenue producer? it sounds like you're fresh out of school and these people are 3-4 years out of school? that can be an ocean of difference. I know 4 years out of school I was making ~50% more than I started.

the starting salary you negotiate will set your benchmark, plain and simple. I had a young guy from a prior job call me asking for advice. he'd been in the job for about a year but he'd taken a low starting salary in the poor economy. now he saw how much he was billing and wanted a big piece of it. I told him you make your bed when you accept the offer and it wasn't realistic to make it up in one shot. he was a revenue producer but not irreplaceable. he ended up not taking my advice, and by pushing too hard royally pissed off the whole management chain.

how to approach it? like I said there's no way to answer for sure. I don't agree with amping up your effort dramatically - if now you're just mailing in a punch-in-at-9-clock-out-at-5 performance you shouldn't be surprised you're paid less so I'm assuming you already meet or exceed the group. I personally wouldn't march into my boss's office and confront him (unless it was a sales position and I was getting a much smaller rate, maybe) but I wouldn't be bashful about bringing it up at my next salary review. you know you're making a lot less and he knows you know. tell him you think you're on the level of those people in what you bring to the company and you'd like to lay out a plan to be compensated in a similar fashion. with empirical evidence hopefully.

at the end of the day though - an employer pays you enough to keep you around. if it isn't enough, you either need to be ready to find something new, or accept the situation.

Post: #16

(07-29-2014 10:00 AM)Turbo Wrote:  He was supposed to email it to his accountant but he accidentally sent it to the team. And we all discovered I make the lowest and they all make 1.5x-2x more. Granted, they have 3-4 more years experience than me but we are all relatively new in the company and have the same positions. I checked Glassdoor before I gave my asking price and got more but apparently they negotiated way, way higher. So should I bring this up to my boss after 6 mos and ask for a raise? If you guys are in the same situation, what would your mindset be?

Listen to this piece on NPR. They say a lot of people sell them selves short in salary negotiations. Sometimes just bringing it up will make the difference.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/07/0...ses-salary

Post: #17

(07-29-2014 10:00 AM)Turbo Wrote:  If you guys are in the same situation, what would your mindset be?

1) I'd keep track of how much you contribute to the bottom line. Then I'd be looking for the next job and using the best guy's salary in the negotiation, and use the new job salary as leverage at my old job. If they say no, fuck em.

And you keep going lateral, gaining new skills and new contacts, until you are the one trying to hide salaries.

You owe none of them bitches ANY loyalty. None whatsoever.
These people are happy keeping food out of your mouth, ecstatic even.

Dude had the opportunity to rectify it, instead he's letting that shit ride. Knowing that you're going to take it.

Poetic justice is cutting his throat corporate style, but only get mercenary if you want to stay at this company.

2) i'd be working a side hustle.

3) And you're god damned right to be angry.

Don't let the pro-management/pro-establishment goons on RVF tell you otherwise.

The entire point of management and ownership is to wring every ounce of productivity out of you.

Whatever they pay you, they're profiting. They wouldn't hire you if they couldn't make a profit from what you put in.

WIA

Post: #18

Management should deliberately send emails of people's salaries but mix up up the figures and pretend the email was a mistake. In the email make out the recipient as the high earner, must be a good way to boost morale.

Post: #19

Be assertive.

If you legitimately think you're bringing as much or almost as much to the table as the others, confront your boss with it and say you want to get paid a similar salary.

Unless you're feeling ambiguous about your contribution, I honestly see no reason to pussyfoot around the issue.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #20

(07-30-2014 12:36 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Don't let the pro-management/pro-establishment goons on RVF tell you otherwise.

The entire point of management and ownership is to wring every ounce of productivity out of you.

Pro-management goon checking in. You're correct that our job is to get the maximum productivity out of each employee. IMHO this is best accomplished by making each employee feel that they are in control of their future salary. Communicating clearly what is needed from them and rewarding their successes works great. Giving each employee skin in the game also let's them participate in the companies upside.

Quote:Whatever they pay you, they're profiting. They wouldn't hire you if they couldn't make a profit from what you put in.

This sums up the employer/employee relationship well. The trick is to give the employee a large enough portion of the profits they produce to incentivize them to generate the maximum profits for the company.

If your employees have a Us vs Them mentality you've already lost.

Post: #21

Some additional thoughts:

Ownership always wants to suppress salaries because every dollar they don't pay you is a dollar more that they can pocket. That is a simple incentive to understand. Management may be a different story though, especially at large corporations. First, managers aren't paying you out of their own pockets, so it's not like they'll make more money by paying you less (exception: budget/cutting OPEX is part of their bonusable goals for the year). Second, their main objective is keeping you productive and dissuading you from leaving, because that makes them look better to their boss. Paying you well assists in that goal. Third, managers fight each other for funds to pay their teams. Each manager wants more money to pay their teams better than other teams.

Also, the implicit bargain between a manager and employee is the latter works hard to make the former look good and, in return, the former assists the latter's career. If you're just working for money, you're missing out.

Post: #22

(07-30-2014 09:03 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  Ownership always wants to suppress salaries because every dollar they don't pay you is a dollar more that they can pocket. That is a simple incentive to understand.

It's certainly true that reducing salaries increases profits. But it's not always true that the only goal of a company is maximizing profits. The other goal can be increasing growth. If you are running a company to be sold at some point your growth rate will be used to value the company. There are many cases of low profit companies with high valuations due to their growth. Many owners have no intention of pulling any money out of a company until it is sold. I've always said that the one expense I like the most is salaries.

Post: #23

Your employee value is determined by two factors:

1. $ value of your production - You do something for $50k that creates $70k profit.
2. $ value another company will pay - You make $50k and another company will pay $60k (ceteris paribus), you can move if you want.


1=Yes, 2=Yes...You are undervaluing yourself, you should be making more.
1=Yes, 2=No...If you're $50k salary produces $70k but another company won't pay you $50k, they may be overvaluing you. Raise awareness of your skills to other companies.
1=No, 2=Yes...If you're $50k salary only produces $40k but other companies want to pay you $60k, you're working for an inefficient or ineffective company. Move.
1=No, 2=No...You work for the government.

Ultimately #1 and #2 are in a dynamic relationship, where they affect each other, but this is a decent way of quantifying the somewhat quantifiable. Of course there's a shit-load of other factors that are qualifiable, not quantifiable, that will actually determine how much you like your job.

Also, I wouldn't directly bring up the email or others' salaries. To me that's like telling your girlfriend about the girls who wanted you at the bar the night before so she knows you have options. She wants that to be implied in a very indirect manner. You know, he knows, you know he knows, and he knows you know.

Post: #24

OP here. Thank you for the input guys. I will definitely confront my boss on my performance review and discuss to him that because of the incident, I don't feel satisfied with how much I make. One question is, should I ask him NOW what should I do so I can reach the level of the salary of the highest guy while everything's fresh, or should I just work better and then tell him why I'm worth the salary that I think I'm worth on my perfomance review (coming in 3 months).

Also the side hustle thing: I feel like if I can make some money on the side, I wouldnt feel so eager to please so I can prove that I deserve a higher salary. But of course, I have to choose where I should focus my efforts: Try to be an indispensable employee and get a raise, or build and experiment on doing my own thing.

Post: #25

Respectfully asking him what you can do to reach the salary of the highest paid team member is an option, although be prepared for the answer to be "nothing at the moment". I'm with heavy - I wouldn't directly bring up the email or anyone else's salary either.

Confronting him about anything is certainly not going to be in your favor. The reality is that you and him entered into an agreement wherein you'd perform certain tasks in exchange for a specific remuneration. The fact that someone else entered into a different agreement does not affect your individual agreement. Using his mistake as leverage makes you appear opportunistic, which is not a good quality. This is assuming that you are replaceable (everyone is) and that you would like to stay/advance in your job/industry.

If I were your boss, I would have already anticipated you asking for a raise and come up with justified reasons to say no. The easiest rationale is their 3 to 4 more years of experience. And then I would start looking to replace you, as you've now become a liability. This is assuming that you are just another employee and that I have no personal loyalties to you.

Personal anecdote: In a previous job, a colleague once mentioned his hourly rate in passing. It was higher than mine. We had the same everything (experience, seniority, etc). I guessed that he probably made more money because he was distantly related to the manager. Back then, I was naive and still had a sense of fairness, which had been disturbed by this discovery. I wanted to bring it up with the manager, and even HR. Luckily, I asked a former manager in the same company for advice. He basically said that life's unfair and not to bitch about the disparate pay rates, because a) I wouldn't get a raise anyway b) it'd make me look bad. I took his advice and am damn glad that I did.