Post: #1

Ok so I work at one of those Gov contractor corporations with politics and people stepping on each other to get ahead. I have this 28 year old female boss. She is ok looking but one of those nasty I'll do whatever it takes to get ahead and throw anyone under the bus to get there.

Since she's new to being a boss she's not comfortable giving direct feedback to her subordinates. So come review time she nitpicks and gives me all this critcism on my review. During the whole 6 month period she never gave me direct feedback, or she was scared to do so. When I get no feedback I assume everything is going good.

So she gives me this 45 day plan to so called improve my performance in these lame areas. Any tips or ideas on how to protest this bullshit??

Post: #2

I'm a govt contractor too (DoS), the performance reviews aren't a bad thing especially if you know that you perform your job well. If she list things that you don't agree with then you should look into your company's corporate policy on how to protest it or pay your HR dept a visit.

Post: #3

Good idea, I saw them give one of these plans to a older lady who disagreed with the boss all the time. They made her work hell and eventually fired her saying she failed the plan.

Then they hired some fresh out of college kid for half the price.

Post: #4

Tell her you want to talk to her for a few minutes, in her office.

Explain that feedback to you is important, so going forward you'd appreciate it if she gave criticism immediately so you can make the necessary improvements immediately.

In the work-place, don't do the blame game and don't play "ain't it awful". You have to stay proactive, so take command of the situation. so her short-comings as a superior are less of an issue. Being proactive for the both of you will get you points, especially if you try to take her side (as a loyal subordinate).

Post: #5

(10-02-2011 12:09 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  Tell her you want to talk to her for a few minutes, in her office.

Explain that feedback to you is important, so going forward you'd appreciate it if she gave criticism immediately so you can make the necessary improvements immediately.

In the work-place, don't do the blame game and don't play "ain't it awful". You have to stay proactive, so take command of the situation. so her short-comings as a superior are less of an issue. Being proactive for the both of you will get you points, especially if you try to take her side (as a loyal subordinate).

Good ideas,

Well I want to establish that I disagree with her feedback, but at the same time I'm willing to work with her to get the job done. I want to show that if she tries to screw me over I will sting back.

Ideas on how to do this? Since she's just a middle supervisor, I may have some leverage.

Post: #6

This just happened to a friend of mine.

I don't want to alarm you, but this is generally what they do, in terms of covering their ass, when they have it in there mind that they want to fire someone.

For whatever legal reason, its not in their best interest to just fire someone unless they are violent, crazy, on drugs, or don't show up. Everyone else generally gets a "performance plan". Then either they can fire you once on the plan for a lesser reason, or wait until you don't meet its impossibly high goals and fire you later. The point is that these plans make it legally easier to fire you.

My friend was fired just a week into his performance plan, and he was meeting the goals. The performance plan was just a legal formality.

However, definitely 'let' them fire you UNLESS you absolutely need the reference and can get one. If you need the reference, and think you will be fired (don't be optimistic, be realistic), then quit so you can get it. If you dont need the work history and recommendation on your resume, then wait to get fired so that you can apply for unemployment benefits.

Either way, be realistic in assessing what is 'probably' going to happen and strategize from there. If a female boss has it out for you, then its likely a no-brainer as to what is happening. Use the time to maybe even land another job while you still have this one. You will have an easier time getting another job while employed.

My friend got stuck because he waited until he got fired, couldn't use the work history on his resume, couldn't use the one before that due to his prior boss being mad that he left for another job, and so even though he has 6 years experience and is a highly skilled attorney (the first boss taught him a lot) he has to start his own business because the likelihood of getting a job with no usable references is nil. His most recent boss was also a woman.

Post: #7

(10-02-2011 02:04 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  This just happened to a friend of mine.

I don't want to alarm you, but this is generally what they do, in terms of covering their ass, when they have it in there mind that they want to fire someone.

For whatever legal reason, its not in their best interest to just fire someone unless they are violent, crazy, on drugs, or don't show up. Everyone else generally gets a "performance plan". Then either they can fire you once on the plan for a lesser reason, or wait until you don't meet its impossibly high goals and fire you later. The point is that these plans make it legally easier to fire you.

My friend was fired just a week into his performance plan, and he was meeting the goals. The performance plan was just a legal formality.

However, definitely 'let' them fire you UNLESS you absolutely need the reference and can get one. If you need the reference, and think you will be fired (don't be optimistic, be realistic), then quit so you can get it. If you dont need the work history and recommendation on your resume, then wait to get fired so that you can apply for unemployment benefits.

Either way, be realistic in assessing what is 'probably' going to happen and strategize from there. If a female boss has it out for you, then its likely a no-brainer as to what is happening. Use the time to maybe even land another job while you still have this one. You will have an easier time getting another job while employed.

My friend got stuck because he waited until he got fired, couldn't use the work history on his resume, couldn't use the one before that due to his prior boss being mad that he left for another job, and so even though he has 6 years experience and is a highly skilled attorney (the first boss taught him a lot) he has to start his own business because the likelihood of getting a job with no usable references is nil. His most recent boss was also a woman.

What u say seems just about accurate as to what seems to happen!!

What my lawyer friend advised me to do is document facts that I have been doing my job send the letter to my boss and HR. See if they drop this lame performance plan, or reassign me to a different department. Hopefully they will bite on it seeing that I could escalate further and make them look bad.

If that does not happen, then write to higher levels of management, this could make my boss look bad seing that I have written facts. Or even make a case of sexual discrimination.

Finally hire a lawyer as a last resort. But I hope writing to my boss and HR might be enough.

Post: #8

She's setting you up.

Post: #9

I wouldn't jump to conclusions. You said it yourself, she's new to being a manager, which in itself isn't easy.

Is everyone else getting these 45 day plans, or is it just you or a few others? In my company, we have what they call a manager development plan for "High Potential" candidates, where we are given a few extra projects, assignments, or books to read over the course of the year to help with our "weaker areas" (mine, like most guys in my field being client management). Her bosses may have put her up to it.

Post: #10

Quote:

Quote:What my lawyer friend advised me to do is document facts that I have been doing my job send the letter to my boss and HR. See if they drop this lame performance plan, or reassign me to a different department. Hopefully they will bite on it seeing that I could escalate further and make them look bad.

If that does not happen, then write to higher levels of management, this could make my boss look bad seing that I have written facts. Or even make a case of sexual discrimination.

Finally hire a lawyer as a last resort. But I hope writing to my boss and HR might be enough.

Documenting facts and conversations, if possible, is a good idea. Try to keep as much communication to email as possible, so that there is a record of everything.

However, I dont have much hope for the rest of your strategy. Likely, transferring departments will require the recommendation of your boss, the woman who has it out for you. You can try it, though. See if she bites.

Second, if you go over her head, i predict that this might screw you further and faster. Either it'll get kicked back down to your boss and then she'll REALLY hate you, or the upper management won't see it as their problem and may see you as tough to manage or disloyal for going around your boss. They may actually encourage her to get rid of you faster. The exception being if they, too, cant stand her OR you have something on her that you can go to upepr management about. However, it would have to be something that looked bad on her in a work ethics / work related capacity. It likely cant just be that she's a "bitch".

That being said, you have nothing to lose with those strategies except a recommendation if you were going to get one.

Still, I'd always be calculating what you are likely to gain and lose. Don't do anything, like bitch excessively to the higher ups, just because it feels good. Always have a target goal in mind, and a certainty that you can attain that goal. You're in the middle of a chess match now, and you don't want to reveal anything or make any bold moves unless you are certain that you will come out ahead.

Post: #11

(10-02-2011 03:55 PM)Gmac Wrote:  Is everyone else getting these 45 day plans, or is it just you or a few others? In my company, we have what they call a manager development plan for "High Potential" candidates, where we are given a few extra projects, assignments, or books to read over the course of the year to help with our "weaker areas" (mine, like most guys in my field being client management). Her bosses may have put her up to it.

It might be as you say Gmac, but from just having watched a friend go through this, a "performance plan" specifically denotes the type of pre-termination administrative action that was previously discussed. However, anything is possible. The OP should have a solid understanding of at least the nature of the performance plan. It would be nice if he was overeacting, but he has potentially a lot to lose if he just goes with the flow and takes it in the ass on their schedule. These things are tough to play, though, I acknowledge. Whatever he does, it'll be a gamble.

Post: #12

(10-02-2011 04:05 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

(10-02-2011 03:55 PM)Gmac Wrote:  Is everyone else getting these 45 day plans, or is it just you or a few others? In my company, we have what they call a manager development plan for "High Potential" candidates, where we are given a few extra projects, assignments, or books to read over the course of the year to help with our "weaker areas" (mine, like most guys in my field being client management). Her bosses may have put her up to it.

It might be as you say Gmac, but from just having watched a friend go through this, a "performance plan" specifically denotes the type of pre-termination administrative action that was previously discussed. However, anything is possible. The OP should have a solid understanding of at least the nature of the performance plan. It would be nice if he was overeacting, but he has potentially a lot to lose if he just goes with the flow and takes it in the ass on their schedule. These things are tough to play, though, I acknowledge. Whatever he does, it'll be a gamble.

This is a setup, Hydro the lawyer says the best bet is make a case to HR and the higher ups cause if I have a case for a lawsuit then the company won't want to go through the hastle and cost so it could workout to protest it and get transfered.

But my thing is if I present all these facts over my bosses head even if she wins, won't she now have an asterix next to her reputation. Others will be cautious around her etc. So she won't want that hastle. Thats what I'm putting my bet on.


The whole reference thing can be overrated. Companies won't release why you were fired or what happened. Cause if she gives bad reference she can be sued for libel and defamation. So most companies refuse to give references only verify dates of employment. So I'm gonna go aggressive.

Why didn't your friend protest his plan? Was it his fault or a conflict of style?

Post: #13

(10-02-2011 02:04 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  However, definitely 'let' them fire you UNLESS you absolutely need the reference and can get one. If you need the reference, and think you will be fired (don't be optimistic, be realistic), then quit so you can get it. If you dont need the work history and recommendation on your resume, then wait to get fired so that you can apply for unemployment benefits.

If OP quits, he can't get unemployment.

Because of fear of defamation lawsuits, most companies won't do anything other than verify the dates of your employment.

OP is being set up, yes, but unless he's in a protected class, there's not much he can do legally.

If I were him, I'd be updating my resume and looking for something else. It's much harder finding a job when you're unemployed than when you are employed.

If he can't find anything, then wait for the ax to fall and try getting unemployment pay.

Post: #14

Defamation? How are you going to prove that? That'll never happen. Most employers are going to call her, and they would have private communication, anyway, even of they instead write and create a record. All you will know is that you didn't get hired, but wont have any idea why or any way to find out. Forget the defamation angle. She can definitely get away with giving you a poor recommendation. Its starting to look like your best option is to wait and get fired.

If this is a government job then maybe she's have an "asteriks" next to her name, Or maybe not. If it was private company, i would say no. However, if you think that you can leverage something then try it. Just word whatever you say very carefully. You don't want to be accused of blackmail. That could go bad for you, and it would also give them a basis to fight your unemployment benefits claim. Many employers will fight that if they can. If what you are doing gets called out as blackmail, then you'll be fired immediately and won't be able to get another government job again. That will, ironically, put a huge asterisks next to your name.

If your going to try something with the hire ups, you cant threaten her first with a condition that you wont if she takes some type of action. Thats blackmail. You just have to go to the higher ups and execute your plan without saying anything to her first.

Post: #15

pros80 - I've been working govt contracts since 2002. I will tell you your best option is to not wait to get fired. Most gov't contractors sign a detailed employee agreement. I'd advise you to read through it (and your company's corporate policy) to see if it states a particular way to resolve disputes. You wouldn't want to violate your employee agreement by seeking legal council as it may be automatic grounds for termination.

Go to your HR office to get a copy of your job description, read the job description thoroughly and make sure you understand what is fully expected. Read the performance review with an open mind then see if anything is expected from you outside of the job description, if so then you have grounds to protest the review. If not, then sharpen your skills on the discrepancies.

That information above is the best option. The easy or simple option is to walk to her office and ask her if she has a couple of minutes to discuss the performance review with you. If she says no then schedule a time to come back. If she says yes then sit down and discuss it. After you are done going through the performance review tell her

(10-02-2011 10:27 AM)pros80 Wrote:  During the whole 6 month period she never gave me direct feedback. When I get no feedback I assume everything is going good.

Let her know you are professional and that you take pride in your work. Tell her if she feel that you are doing something incorrect to please let you know immediately so that you can correct it right away.

Keep in mind protocols in the gov't sector differ from those that are in the private sector.

Post: #16

(10-03-2011 01:01 AM)Imthattypeofguy Wrote:  pros80 - I've been working govt contracts since 2002. I will tell you your best option is to not wait to get fired. Most gov't contractors sign a detailed employee agreement. I'd advise you to read through it (and your company's corporate policy) to see if it states a particular way to resolve disputes. You wouldn't want to violate your employee agreement by seeking legal council as it may be automatic grounds for termination.

Go to your HR office to get a copy of your job description, read the job description thoroughly and make sure you understand what is fully expected. Read the performance review with an open mind then see if anything is expected from you outside of the job description, if so then you have grounds to protest the review. If not, then sharpen your skills on the discrepancies.

That information above is the best option. The easy or simple option is to walk to her office and ask her if she has a couple of minutes to discuss the performance review with you. If she says no then schedule a time to come back. If she says yes then sit down and discuss it. After you are done going through the performance review tell her

(10-02-2011 10:27 AM)pros80 Wrote:  During the whole 6 month period she never gave me direct feedback. When I get no feedback I assume everything is going good.

Let her know you are professional and that you take pride in your work. Tell her if she feel that you are doing something incorrect to please let you know immediately so that you can correct it right away.

Keep in mind protocols in the gov't sector differ from those that are in the private sector.

All this is fine, but my goal is to get this 45 day plan removed!work in the private sector as a gov contractor. The whole point of what I'm doing is to get her to change the review.

Does a middle supervisor really have this much power over me? Espcially if I show facts to disprove otherwise?

Maybee if I show them I won't just take it and not do anything they'll back off, so lets see what happens when I protest to her first in writing and a meeting. I won't blackmail but write my disagreements. If that doesn't solve it its time to go to HR in writing.

The key seems to be writing otherwise they will act like it never happened is what the lawyer told me. If this doesn't resolve it its time to wait for the ax, but with my written protest i can leverage a severance perhaps.

Post: #17

Use the 45 days to your advantage and try talking to her.

Post: #18

(10-03-2011 07:22 AM)Imthattypeofguy Wrote:  Use the 45 days to your advantage and try talking to her.

Thanks for the tip. Well its obvious she has it in for me so I don't trust her.

So lets see if HR will bite on my leverage or not give a fuck. Either way I either go down so might as well swing.

Post: #19

In case anyone was wondering what happened. I submitted a email to my boss asking to remove the plan and for a follow up meeting.

I presented facts to defend my work and gave examples. I copied HR on the email. She called me to her office and decided to postone or put the plan on hold and we agreed to see how things go.

Lets see what happens! I think I showed I wont be walked over. Or they may call me in and fire me one day who knows !!

Post: #20

Sounds good, but you may have just set her back on her heels with your assertiveness. Meaning, she may have just been surprised that you stood up for yourself and she didn't want to get caught unprepared. She may come at you again once she's more sure of her options and position. Work on any options that you might have in the meantime, and keep on guard. I predict that this position definitely isn't going to work out for the long term, simply because its a mismatch between you and the boss, and so eventually it will self destruct. At least now you know what she's thinking and you have a reprieve during which you can make some bigger plans or moves.

Post: #21

(10-02-2011 09:39 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  Defamation? How are you going to prove that? That'll never happen. Most employers are going to call her, and they would have private communication, anyway, even of they instead write and create a record. All you will know is that you didn't get hired, but wont have any idea why or any way to find out. Forget the defamation angle. She can definitely get away with giving you a poor recommendation.

You would be surprised at how many companies have this rule. Sure, she could get away with it but that doesn't mean the guy couldn't sue the company anyway.

It is about mitigating risks which is why a lot of companies will only respond with limited information on employment.

Post: #22

(10-04-2011 11:34 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(10-02-2011 09:39 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  Defamation? How are you going to prove that? That'll never happen. Most employers are going to call her, and they would have private communication, anyway, even of they instead write and create a record. All you will know is that you didn't get hired, but wont have any idea why or any way to find out. Forget the defamation angle. She can definitely get away with giving you a poor recommendation.

You would be surprised at how many companies have this rule. Sure, she could get away with it but that doesn't mean the guy couldn't sue the company anyway.

It is about mitigating risks which is why a lot of companies will only respond with limited information on employment.

I had an attorney advise me to only ever confirm dates of employment when giving references for this specific reason.

Post: #23

Quote:You would be surprised at how many companies have this rule. Sure, she could get away with it but that doesn't mean the guy couldn't sue the company anyway.

It is about mitigating risks which is why a lot of companies will only respond with limited information on employment.

What rule? Only to confirm dates?

Okay. But if they dont, and she gives a bad recommendation, I dont understand how the OP could get enough evidence about it to take legal action.

I highly doubt the company that didn't hire him would give that info out, because that would tie them up with a lawsuit that just wastes their time and resources. The company that gave the bad recommendation certainly wouldn't provide evidence. Especially considering that this may all go down over the phone. And even if it doesn't, you aren't going to get a subpoena for email records based on a hunch.

Anyway, I think its possible to get bad recommendations, and have nor recourse, especially depending on the industry that you are in and how tight knit it is or is not.

Post: #24

(10-04-2011 06:50 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  What rule? Only to confirm dates?

Yeah, a lot of companies won't give out much info besides that.

Quote:Okay. But if they dont, and she gives a bad recommendation, I dont understand how the OP could get enough evidence about it to take legal action.

You mean if everyone kept it a secret? How much evidence do you need before people can take legal action?

I guess I don't understand why this is so far fetched. It is easy to sue anyone. A lot of people are always on the lookout for a huge payday and will sue anyone to get it.

Depositions can pull information out pretty well with the right lawyer. Who needs the costs of legal defense or the bad publicity like that anyway. It is just easier to establish a policy like that and not worry.

Post: #25

(10-04-2011 06:50 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

Quote:You would be surprised at how many companies have this rule. Sure, she could get away with it but that doesn't mean the guy couldn't sue the company anyway.

It is about mitigating risks which is why a lot of companies will only respond with limited information on employment.

What rule? Only to confirm dates?

Okay. But if they dont, and she gives a bad recommendation, I dont understand how the OP could get enough evidence about it to take legal action.

I highly doubt the company that didn't hire him would give that info out, because that would tie them up with a lawsuit that just wastes their time and resources. The company that gave the bad recommendation certainly wouldn't provide evidence. Especially considering that this may all go down over the phone. And even if it doesn't, you aren't going to get a subpoena for email records based on a hunch.

Anyway, I think its possible to get bad recommendations, and have nor recourse, especially depending on the industry that you are in and how tight knit it is or is not.

Hydro, Here is the deal. If you feel you may have got a bad reference. Have a friend call the ex boss or there are services out there that check references for you.

You can see what the boss is actually saying and then can use that. If you find you got a bad reference from the boss.

Send a letter to the boss, the company HR, The boss's boss and other management. They will then know not to do something stupid. This is a HR legal nightmare.

You never wanna live in fear of a ex boss's reference of you. This is how.

In addition lawyers out there have all kinds of strategies to sue etc.. Thats how employment lawyers make their money. They sue but always settle before court.