Post: #176

I was catching up with this thread--after only going on the forum intermittently most of yesterday--when I encountered this (bolding mine):

(10-06-2014 02:14 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  But, outside of this...feminism might have infected you worse than what you are trying to protect others from...

(10-06-2014 02:28 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  If you are broke, you will come up with ways to sound Alpha about why a bitch better not order any appetizers.

(10-06-2014 02:14 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  The broke guys need to make up some "rules" about "game" (despite not necessarily being the best role models about game that works) to make sure that they feel good about being over 30 years old and going Dutch on a date that has access to $10 appetizers.

(10-06-2014 02:47 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  Freaking out about the tab creeping up a bit while having a good time?...well, that is a man not in control of his lifestyle. That is losing frame.

And finally this:

(10-06-2014 03:04 AM)anonymous123 Wrote:  @QC - wouldn't it be easier to bifurcate into: 1) if you make little per year year then "Team No Appetizers", and 2) if you make more than average "Don't Give A Shit About No Chicken Wang"!???

Seriously, if "Team No Appetizer" becomes a rule...you are truly giving shitty advice to the brotherhood of the game community. We should all adapt to the circumstances of what you have available to yourself.

Don't impose this poverty mindset on others. Appetizers? Really? What a joke.

We were having a fun and spirited, but civilized, conversation before Anonymous123 butted in and blew the lid off with personal insults toward people he doesn't agree with. There were some "you guys are cheap!" accusations, but guys kept it respectful, as is the custom in this forum. Anonymous took a big leap over the line. Instead of making it about differences of opinion between players, he made it about being "broke" or being "infected by feminism" or having a "poverty mindset." This is unacceptable.

This isn't the first time Anonymous has displayed total disregard for forum culture. He has a history of insulting the membership, using feminist shaming language, yet being quick to take offense when things don't go his way. He's currently on a 60% warning level for one of those.

A meltdown like this would ordinarily merit at least a 7-day day warning (+60%). Even if the moderation team were supremely generous, and gave him a 3-day (+40%), Anonymous would still go over the 100% (ban) mark. Though, to be frank, Anonymous has displayed a consistent pattern of unwillingness to adhere to the way things are done in this forum.

Guys ask for transparency about bannings, often with the (incorrect) speculation that they're done arbitrarily, with little consideration, or for personal reasons. So there you have it. Roosh and I even discussed this case in detail behind the scenes, though this one didn't even merit it because it's so clear cut.

This is otherwise a good conversation and thread. Let's carry on.

Post: #177

anonymous123 is the same guy who couldn't fathom why anybody wouldn't want to be a Goldman Sachs investment banker in the Consulting thread... It's a shame to lose a millionaire member though, if only he'd dropped an entrepreneurship datasheet first.

Post: #178

(10-07-2014 10:06 AM)Deluge Wrote:  anonymous123 is the same guy who couldn't understand why anybody wouldn't want to be a Goldman Sachs investment banker in the Consulting thread... It's a shame to lose a millionaire member though, if only he'd dropped an entrepreneurship datasheet first.

I agree it was good to have his opinions and experience about business and investing. But it's a bit unseemly to put down people that have, as of yet, not attained the same level of success as yourself. His best posts were when he was encouraging people to improve.

Post: #179

(10-07-2014 04:39 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  Gassy girls don't put out.

Great point!

Do not order heavy food! Only order "light" food such as vegetables, shrimp, salad, bruschetta, fruit, etc.

Food that is very easy on her digestive system.

If she has to fart or take a shit, her desire to get sexual likely decreases.

Also, I like to get dessert because it sort of cleans the mouth of any leftover taste from the appetizer. I often go for the kiss soon after dessert.

Post: #180

The more you know. Thanks SB and Gio!

So stick with veggies and not processed stuff?

Post: #181

(10-07-2014 09:59 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  This is otherwise a good conversation and thread. Let's carry on.

Hmmm, so there is one less on team "Appetizer".

Post: #182

(10-07-2014 11:01 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  The more you know. Thanks SB and Gio!

So stick with veggies and not processed stuff?

Japanese is always a good bet - almost all dishes are light, and use simple fresh ingredients.

Don't go for the 32oz t-bone steak.

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold

Post: #183

(10-07-2014 12:14 PM)Benoit Wrote:  Japanese is always a good bet - almost all dishes are light, and use simple fresh ingredients.

That's my go-to cuisine. Sushi followed by some more sushi...

Post: #184

(10-07-2014 12:29 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 12:14 PM)Benoit Wrote:  Japanese is always a good bet - almost all dishes are light, and use simple fresh ingredients.

That's my go-to cuisine. Sushi followed by some more sushi...

Light food, sake, frequently reasonable prices, and a whiff of the exotic. It's a good go-to. Plus it makes for an easy bounce to another venue, since you're not going to sit there all night drinking rice-wine.

That being said, I'm relatively young, and women I've dated have been pretty happy to go Dutch. Haven't had a date order an appetizer on my dime yet.

Post: #185

(10-07-2014 09:59 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  Guys ask for transparency about bannings, often with the (incorrect) speculation that they're done arbitrarily, with little consideration, or for personal reasons. So there you have it. Roosh and I even discussed this case in detail behind the scenes, though this one didn't even merit it because it's so clear cut.

This is otherwise a good conversation and thread. Let's carry on.

I've enjoyed his posts in the past. I had no idea he was at a warning level for prior infractions. I actually took a lot less offense to the things you guys believe are personal attacks and had a much bigger problem with his (as well as multiple people on either side) thinking it's a black and white situation with no grey area. This is where the personal attacks come in. It's one thing to really believe someone is an idiot and another entirely to not consider or reason through some of their beliefs that you don't agree with but that may have some merit (instead of dismissing them entirely).

As Gio has laid out there are MANY factors when considering what route to take. This is calibration, a part of game I still struggle with, but that I recognize is immensely important.

I'm not on either team, I recognize there are valid reasons on both sides why someone would choose to not think much of buying an appetizer as well as why someone would think a lot of it.

I started this post to say one thing, THANK you to the moderator team for the transparency in this case. I don't know how many people ask for it or what their reasons are, but especially in the less obvious of cases such as a high-rep/high-contribution member I think it lays out a foundation for how the rest of us can continue to benefit from as well as contribute to the forum.

Post: #186

At least Tuth saw that one on his own. I swear, some guys here have banned because another user is replying to their posts (which they find offensive) and reporting them at the same time and repeating this while having a multi post conversation which is some serious weak shit.

Post: #187

(10-06-2014 10:41 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

(10-06-2014 10:31 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  ^ 9pm is usually too late for a first date for the non sluts in my experience out here in CA.

If they have work or school it's a tough sell.

It's rare a girl will tell me 9 is too late for her. If a girl is down to meet that night then 9 isn't an issue, the trains here don't stop running till after midnight. If she has to get up early the next morning she'll usually suggest another night all together. Shoot for 8 instead then, but I would never go any earlier.

I'm sticking to 8pm earliest meet up from now on. I asked a girl out tonight to test it on but she has class so I'm hoping to try tomorrow.

My only issue with 9pm is it can be a little tight on time to run enough comfort game to bounce her back to my place. I imagine this is a bigger deal in the American suburbs as opposed to a legit city center.

Post: #188

I'm firmly in the camp that if you want appetizers, you should grab some.

Otherwise, it's rude of her to (subtly or otherwise) imply that you should order food after you've already ordered drinks. The attitude I maintain is that she is there to convince you to fuck her. It's not sexy for her to stuff herself in front of me late at night and it's not sexy for her to make requests when I'm already giving her my time and providing drinks. If she starts being insistent, I would be disgusted enough at her uncouth behavior that I don't think I'd enjoy continuing the date. If it's a casual, subtle remark (ie "Those nachos look good"), I'd just reply "I've already eaten, thank you." Hopefully it would end there, and if so I wouldn't hold it against her. There's enough thirst out there that any moderately-attractive chick is probably used to getting away with that kind of low-class behavior and doesn't recognize it as such, but I'm not going to contribute to it.

Imagine if a friend showed up at your house and said something like "I'd like some pizza and a coke" as if you're his waiter. And that's your fucking friend. But some random lizard?

Post: #189

I think we're seeing a distinction by those of us who've gotten played with this tactic, and those that have not.

I've never had a girl not go out with me again whether or not we ordered apps, or, god forbid, I decided to take her out for sushi after drinks! Not in NYC, not anywhere, not in 2 decades. Yes, I said I decided, because it is ALWAYS our decision. She can suggest whatever she likes. She can ask to be driven home in a silver Ghost Rolls-Royce by Brad Pitt, doesn't affect me any.

If you maintain frame, and she's thinking about sleeping with you - get this - a $8 appetizer will not change that in her mind. I'd order something I wanted and eat half of it. Perhaps you didn't want to, and you let her talk you into it, and NOW she thinks you've lost frame and are a pushover - that's my guess. I sure hope no one whined about it.

For those of you worried about costs, do you limit her to 2 drinks? 4? Where's the line....can she order a martini or only Coors Light? If she's drunk can she keep ordering?
If she's sober does she get to have more drinks throughout the night?

I'm curious what your distinction is, Cost-wise.... Is it simply $8 Cosmo good, any food bad?

Post: #190

(10-07-2014 06:52 PM)horn Wrote:  For those of you worried about costs, do you limit her to 2 drinks? 4? Where's the line....can she order a martini or only Coors Light? If she's drunk can she keep ordering?
If she's sober does she get to have more drinks throughout the night?

I'm curious what your distinction is, Cost-wise.... Is it simply $8 Cosmo good, any food bad?

You didn't read the thread....did you?

Post: #191

As a rule I only do drink dates until I get the bang. Reading this thread yesterday afternoon, I realized that inside the U.S. I'd never bought a girl dinner before a bang, and never had any ask me for apps.

All that changed last night. It was a first date with a latina crossfit instructor and competitor, hands down the fittest girl I've hung out with in my life. Big ass, six pack, the whole nine yards. She works 7 days a week, lives 30+ minutes away, and came to see me directly from teaching her last class of the day, even though she had another class this morning at 6am.

She said she needed to eat after her workout, so I took her to a cheap restaurant. After we bounced to a second spot she mentioned she was still hungry, and I ordered us an appetizer. I happily paid for everything without thinking twice.

The result? I dropped maybe $80 total, and banged one of the hottest girls I've ever been with in my life. Today she's blowing up my phone telling me about the home cooking she's making for me this weekend. Money very well spent.

My conclusion: there are no hard and fast rules here, and statements either way (e.g. buying apps = no game, or not buying apps = cheap) are both wrong and misleading. Like everything else in the game, it's a case by case basis. That said, I would generally lean towards avoiding food, especially for mid-tier girls, with the realization in some cases it's just the cost of doing business

Post: #192

(10-07-2014 11:01 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  The more you know. Thanks SB and Gio!

So stick with veggies and not processed stuff?

Yes stay away from processed foods, anything high fat or oily, too much nuts, or too much seafoods. They can easily cause stomach upsets when combined with alcohol, or trigger allergies. I pay special attention to this because it seems every second girl around here has some serious allergies.

Better to buy her more drinks.

If you have to eat something, having dessert is actually a better choice (bounce to next venue from drinking). Desserts tend not to cause any health issue, the late night venues are more intimate (at least in my city), they can be shared, high sugar makes girls more impulsive and feel good, eating desserts in place of a real meal is 'naughty', chocolate is an aphrodisiac etc.

Post: #193

(10-07-2014 07:33 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  high sugar makes girls more impulsive and feel good

There will be a dip in their energy levels after the blood sugar spike drops their blood sugar to lower than when it started, so close the deal quickly.

No woman wants to bang when she feels bloated.

Post: #194

Which is why I live less than 3 mins walk from all the cool places for desserts around here

Unless she eats too much sugar regularly which fucks up her insulin sensitivity (in which case she'd likely be fat and I wouldn't be seen dead with her), her blood sugar level won't drop that fast. It takes at least an hour.

Post: #195

The true "alpha" move is when she orders the appetizer, you immediately grab the first piece as they put it on the table, tell her "mmmm...this is good, you want some?", maintain your frame and make sure to eat more of the appetizer than she does.

What is she going to do, order another one? Repeat.

Post: #196

(10-07-2014 07:14 PM)The Wire Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 06:52 PM)horn Wrote:  For those of you worried about costs, do you limit her to 2 drinks? 4? Where's the line....can she order a martini or only Coors Light? If she's drunk can she keep ordering?
If she's sober does she get to have more drinks throughout the night?

I'm curious what your distinction is, Cost-wise.... Is it simply $8 Cosmo good, any food bad?

You didn't read the thread....did you?

Much of it, yes. Different guys had totally different responses that I remember:
Some cared strongly about apps because they were over-worried about frame, some didn't, some plainly stated they wanted the girl drunk as fuck and making bad decisions, some said they were poor but not where drinks were involved, some would not spend $80 getting some girl drinks, and some worried about her getting gas from fried food.

If you answered the question, I confess I didn't memorize it from yesterday. I'll assume you were sincere with your question and didn't think that I may not have memorized hundreds of posts from the past couple of days. You realize expecting that from anyone in this thread who posts sounds very odd...

Feel free to link to your answer, or give me the post number and I will re-read it. Fair?

Post: #197

Man I was gonna jump on this thread a while back but I wasn't in the mood to discuss food. Things have taken off since then.

I am staunchly in the "Anti-App" camp.

I've got some views on food and dining that I take pretty seriously. I'm not into "snacking". I'm not into "social eating". I know I'm in the minority here, and that this is the present state of American culture. Dining out is now a social activity. Instead of going out for a cocktail or two, now people have to order a round of "small plates" to go with it. I'm not having it.

I've had girls directly tell me, "I'm not going out if we're just getting drinks. You'll have to take me out to dinner." These girls are promptly given radio silence. Taking a girl out to dinner is for a girl you really like. A girl's equivalent would be taking it in the ass or dressing up in a slutty schoolgirl outfit (which some sluts will do freely, but most girls save this stuff for guys they like)

If a girl insists on eating, it means she has a poor relationship with food. Food should not be a big deal. It should not be an incentive. Normal people eat meals without fanfare or treating a meal out as some sort of currency. Most girls can't cook or feed themselves, I get that. I'll lose bangs for not taking girls out to dinner, I get that too. Pussy isn't that important to me. Fucking the right kind of girl is much more important to me.

You guys making it about cost are missing the point, I think. This isn't about money.

If I invite a girl out for a drink, it means she can order whatever beverage she likes. If she orders a $22 glass of champagne, I would actually be pleased with her decision (ordering an entire bottle is another story). It shows backbone and confidence in her femininity. A woman holding a slender champagne glass is as timeless as it is elegant. These women are rare. I'm seeing more and more women that order an Old Fashioned or a beer and a plate of fried chicken wings.

Simply put; women eating is not an attractive sight, with few exceptions (I do enjoy watching asian girls slurping up noodles skillfully with chopsticks) Much like taking a shit, a woman stuffing her face is something she should do on her own time. A woman on a date should realize she's on stage and under the spotlight, but the vast majority of women don't understand this.

Now, with all this in mind, Seamus does bring up a very good point. There are exceptions. In his case, his girl was making it very clear that seeing him was a priority. Most girls after a busy day are too tired for dates. She was doing what it takes to stay energized for the date. Big difference between that and a girl looking for a food handout.

When girls prioritize food for dates they come off as impoverished bums.

Post: #198

(10-07-2014 12:29 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 12:14 PM)Benoit Wrote:  Japanese is always a good bet - almost all dishes are light, and use simple fresh ingredients.

That's my go-to cuisine. Sushi followed by some more sushi...

I almost always have my first dates at a Sushi restaurant, and I always pay regardless if she's a student or earning good money. Having said that, I can understand the apprehension from forum members in both footing the bill or going to a restaurant on a first date/shelling out for appetizers when on a drinks date. No alcohol is consumed either...and it's not hurting my chances at getting the notch.

I see it as a carrot and stick move - the carrot being the offer of Sushi (which almost all girls are into) and the stick being the spanking they'll get, hehe.

Some recent examples here, here, here and here. (last one was alcohol & pizza however)

My reasoning is 1. It's low cost, but not "cheap". 2. It's reasonably healthy (as described above). 3. We're sitting next to each other at the "train", so kino is possible, but most importantly 4. the restaurant is close to my house (and closer than any local bars) and therefore logistically sound.

What's that saying, an ounce of logistics is worth a pound of pussy(?)

They've got a loyalty card too, so I get a few bucks off here and there.

As Seamus said above, it's definitely a case by case basis. In my experience, it hasn't hurt my chances whatsoever.

Post: #199

^^ Bust out a sushie date datasheet.

Thanks for the insightful info.

Post: #200

If you are going to take a girl out to eat, sushi is by far the best option available.

The problem that I've encountered is with picky bitches that "don't eat raw fish".

When you do find a girl that likes sushi, usually it's just cut rolls. Even though most girls want rolls a.k.a. "maki", try to steer her away from that. Specialty rolls usually have all kinds of fatty crap and salt in there like kewpie mayonaisse and sweet soy sauce that can make you bloated.

Try to find an izakaya, basically a japanese restaurant serving a variety of bar food. I typically order some grilled skewers like shiitake mushroom, shishito peppers, chicken thigh, chicken hearts, etc. There will usually be a few cold items available like seaweed salad, marinated cucumber, and spinach gomae. Then order a few nigiri (just fish on rice, maybe brushed with soy or ponzu, but no gunky mayo based sauces) or a plate of yellowtail sashimi.