Post: #1

Ever since I was a kid, I have been fascinated with planes and flying them. If you asked me what I wanted to do when I grow up as a kid, I'd always respond "Pilot". Now, a few days ago, I was browsing through the programmes a local college has, I saw they have an aviation programme. The tuition for it is about 40K which includes 200 hours of flying. Now that I have the time and $, I'm very tempted by it. However, I wish I knew any pilots, so I could talk to them about whether this is worth the time/money investment. Anyone in here with either first hand or second hand experience with aviation/piloting? Is this worth the investment? How is the potential to get a good gig out of this after graduation? I'd be more interested in the private jets/helicopters than commercial planes.

I'd appreciate any feedback guys.

Post: #2

I was given a flying lesson as a gift and from there I was hooked and took a few more when time has allowed and I'll continue to pursue my license but looking at anything other than something for personal use these days is getting to become a waste of time according to the teachers and pilots I've talked too. If you watch captalism a love story by moore he touches on it a bit as well, median wage for a new pilot is under 20k a year. A lot of pilots will do the school route but join the air force to get hours built up and they're the ones who end up with the better private gigs due to the experience they've been able to get on someone elses dime. Helicopters might be a different animal I don't any heli pilots personally and didn't look into it myself but I can't imagine it being worse than trying to land a good paying pilots gig. I'd research that more if I were you but I imagine the perks would be less, wouldnt get to travel the world so to speak copters seem to be industry specific.

Post: #3

I've been told repeatedly that as a profession, pilot is a bad choice. The training is expensive, the hours are harsh, and the pay is shit.

Chef In Jeans
A culinary website for men

Post: #4

No. Don't do it. Old man was pilot flying international who after 40+ years said the job sucked that I should not go into it. Imagine a permanent jetlag, and an unending feeling of vertigo.

Union sucks. The glory days of this profession is over.

Plusses include banging girls from different countries, and of course the air maids in random hotels.

Couple of retired pilots started a pilot school in the PI which would be cheaper and I believe fulfills the hour requirements, if this interests you.

And grandpa was also a US trained bomber pilot. I am from a family of pilots. They get good looking girls.

Post: #5

Piloting was once my chosen profession and I'm still a bit of an aircraft junkie, so I'll speak to what I know about this.

The best way into commercial piloting is through the military. It takes quite a bit of investment(time and money) to get the hours and skills necessary to become a commercial pilot and make decent money. Climbing that latter as a civillian can be extremely tough and quite cash-poor. The military takes care of this problem by training you on their dime and getting you the experience as you serve and fly. This is why so many commercial pilots(like Manilaguy's father) are former air force guys.

The quickest way into a US Military pilot slot is actually through rotocraft in the Army.
http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/04/15/196...ots-crews/

The US army has a deficit of helicopter pilots, so it has created programs designed to attract more candidates and speed up their training. You can come right out of high school now as an 18 year old kid and, within just a few months, receive a commision as a fully fledged warrant officer and pilot. It isn't a bad gig if your goal is to become a pilot in short order, and you get to travel the world. There are a decent number of civillian exit options as well following the end of your army career(commercial helicopter pilots are necessary to). Military helicopter pilots don't have the same exit options as jet pilots in the air force/navy, but the opportunities are still pretty good as is the pay.

Here is some info on all this:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armytrng/...ypilot.htm
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/cargo/...ilots.html

Post: #6

(04-13-2011 06:56 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  I've been told repeatedly that as a profession, pilot is a bad choice. The training is expensive, the hours are harsh, and the pay is shit.

I have several friends who are pilots, and will second that. For most them it is a lifetime passion, they'd do it for free, and nobody went there for money. If flying an airplane is just a job for you, don't do it.

And 200 hours is nothing. Major airlines typically require at least 3,000 hours total flight time including at least 1,500 hours multi-engine, and at least 1000 hours as pilot in command (PIC) of turbine (jet) powered aircraft, preferably in scheduled airline flying.

Post: #7

I agree with all of the responses here. I was the same as you VP when I was younger. All I wanted to be was a pilot. Fortunately, I got to see my fist uncle's career trajectory as a pilot, as well as talk to a lot of pilots when I used to work as town car service driver and regularly take them from their motels to the airport.

Being a pilot is like being a bus driver, or a town car driver, only your in the air. Your a chauffeur, and if you are flying a large jet then you don't even get to fly. Its all autopilot.

Its very hard to get on with an airline, and salaries have dropped. Initially, some pilots for big airlines make something like $15 an hour. There was even a public outcry about it, as no one wanted to put their lives in the hands of someone who was worried about his bills.

My uncle, a great pilot with a lot of talent and who probably should have been an engineer, but who nevertheless followed his dream and has peaked as a small jet pilot running a transportation business with someone else's jet. While he has done his best to make what he could out of a career with limited options, he still hustles.

I would say, if you must, then fly for fun. But don't make a career out of it.

Post: #8

Pilots’ Lives Defy Glamorous Stereotype

Neil A. Weston, also 25, went $100,000 into debt to train for a co-pilot’s job that pays him $25,000 annually.

“I know a guy who bought a car that barely ran and parked it in the employee lot at his base airport, and slept in his car six or seven times a month,”

Pilot's Blog

Congratulations! After years of working hard getting your ratings, flight instructing, and flying boxes, you finally got the magic call you'd been waiting for. You're now cruising the flight levels in comfort and style - and earning $19 per hour to do so.

Post: #9

Think about the fact that these men have a few hundred lives in their hands, directly, and how many countless thousands they could have in their hands indirectly should a an airliner crash into a heavily populated area.

I want to damn America for this, but I'm not sure if its just us or if its international as well, but it seems as if the most important and fundamental careers are the ones that pay the least.

Chef In Jeans
A culinary website for men

Post: #10

I have been reading lately that work conditions and pay for airline pilots has become really bad.

Maybe check out helicopter pilot job prospects? The last time I looked in it, there is actually projected growth there. For tv stations, hospitals, police depts, and corporations...

Post: #11

(04-14-2011 06:57 PM)The_CEO Wrote:  Maybe check out helicopter pilot job prospects? The last time I looked in it, there is actually projected growth there. For tv stations, hospitals, police depts, and corporations...

I've checked it out. Its a tough field. And ex-military pilots are preferred across the board.

Post: #12

Thanks guys for all the constructive and informative feedback you've given. Wow, never imagined things would be that bad career wise and monetary wise for a pilot. I mean, a pilot is among the most prestigious and highly regarded career, or at least, that's how I perceive it and consequently, to be handsomely paid for it. But wow, what a shock to be paid $19 an hour? You must be kidding! That just doesn't seem RIGHT at all. Wow. Things might be that bad in the US, but I can't believe it's also that bad here in Canada. There'll be an informational session at the local college next week about the aviation programme and I'll go there specifically to ask about the compensation aspect of a pilots career. A part of me, refuses to believe that it's that bad, not that I doubt you guys, it's just that it's seems so hard to believe.

Thanks again guys,

Cheers.

Post: #13

Do a search on articles about it in the New York Times. The American carriers are always having problems, and with high oil prices now. They've cut back a lot on their routes as well which is compounded by recent mergers. Besides the US carriers, British Airways recently asked their pilots to take a pay cut.
In the US, the airlines use regional carriers for short haul routes. Those are the kind of pilots that make like 23,000$ a year right now. It's really bad...

Hopefully there are better chances in Canada... I bet you could become a bush pilot there?

Post: #14

I flew for a while and one thing across the board is pilots tend to whine a lot (pun intended). The job itself is not bad at all but takes patience and dedication to earn any respectable money. Starting out is very though as you don't have any experience and to gain experience you need a job. This situation creates this underpaying problem at the bottom level and employers tend to capitalize on this. This is mostly regional airline phenomenon with mainlines having much better pay and working conditions. Once you have experience in a popular aircraft with time on type, you will not starve. Lots of contracts for experienced dudes in the Middle East and Asia.

There is lots of cool flying work outside of main airline biz that is well paid and more stable. Think of flying water bombers. Those guys make good money with shit load of time off. A Canadian friend of mine flies bombers for Alberta, his work year consists of 4-5 months working during fire season, the rest is time off. Makes around 80K doing that. During winters he picks up contracts that pay 10-20k a month (flying in Turkey and Spain), and also flying float planes in Maldives for cash.

Specialized work is great. Off-strip, floats, skis, those guys make good coin with lots of time off. A common setup is 3 weeks on/off. When I was working in Burma for a big helicopter company, I had 6 weeks on/off. During my 6 on I worked about 3 hours a day and the rest just killing time. On my 6 off I have traveled around the region and party hard. At the end of my 6 weeks vacation I was so tired that going back to work was a vacation from my vacation.

Another friend flies regional turboprops in Africa for UN. Month on month off. 9k euros a month paid on both time on and off. If you want to stay extra, double that.

But for sure, to get to these sort of contracts takes a bit of time and working for nothing else but experience. Forget about much money for the first few years.

Post: #15

Cracker Jack,
Awesome post man!So the first few years, as a pilot, I'd make peanuts, say under 30K and then after I accumulate enough experience, that's when I can get those juicy contracts. The question is, after how long in years, would I become eligible to those types of contracts (like the on off for UN your friend is doing or the fire fighter in Alberta during fire season?

Post: #16

(04-15-2011 07:15 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  Cracker Jack,
Awesome post man!So the first few years, as a pilot, I'd make peanuts, say under 30K and then after I accumulate enough experience, that's when I can get those juicy contracts. The question is, after how long in years, would I become eligible to those types of contracts (like the on off for UN your friend is doing or the fire fighter in Alberta during fire season?

It depends on how persistent you are. On average I would say 5 years. Networking is key here as usually those sort of jobs are word of mouth. The most important part initially is to get Pilot In Command (PIC) time as fast as you can. Multi PIC is the most valuable at the start and most difficult to get when you have no experience. Instructing or a bush job for about two years will get you that. Once you have about 500-1000 hours of that than start looking for turbine time (props and jets). Try picking companies with varied fleets for different type ratings, but the best time for the first 2000 hours is PIC time. I'd rather have 1500 hours flying piston props from places like Pickle Lake as a PIC than flying a regional Dash-8 as a co-pilot for Jazz from Pearson. The pay starts to get better once you have a minimum 2500-3000 hours, an ATPL license and a captains seat on a twin turbine. That's about 4 years after finishing your training.

Fire bombing is a cushy job due to lots of time off and you're working for the government (usually). They take guys with a lot of bush time flying straight floats and amphibs. Networking is most important here also.

Don't think that money is only in big jets. Problem there is becoming a captain for a mainline like Air Canada is long process and can often take upwards of 8+ years after being hired. But co-pilots there make good coin also.

I think contract work flying turboprops overseas is where the money is at. Dash-8, ATR, captains can easily make 120k a year doing rotational work. Even small 19 pax or less turboprops can make you 80k a year.

Aviation is not for everybody and you really have to have a drive for it if you don't want to waste money on training.

Post: #17

Thanks again Cracker Jack for the invaluable feedback!
Btw, what would be extremely helpful if you could post say rough salary figures when you mention the different stages/aviation jobs after graduating. This would make things so much better in the sense that I'd get an idea of whether it'd be worth the time/money investment to go into aviation. LIke for example, how much right after graduation, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years and so forth and for the different positions you mentioned (bush job; flying piston props; co pilot; fire bombing; captain, co-pilot etc...

Thanks a lot again.

Post: #18

(04-15-2011 09:10 PM)CrackerJack Wrote:  

(04-15-2011 07:15 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  Cracker Jack,
Awesome post man!So the first few years, as a pilot, I'd make peanuts, say under 30K and then after I accumulate enough experience, that's when I can get those juicy contracts. The question is, after how long in years, would I become eligible to those types of contracts (like the on off for UN your friend is doing or the fire fighter in Alberta during fire season?

It depends on how persistent you are. On average I would say 5 years. Networking is key here as usually those sort of jobs are word of mouth. The most important part initially is to get Pilot In Command (PIC) time as fast as you can. Multi PIC is the most valuable at the start and most difficult to get when you have no experience. Instructing or a bush job for about two years will get you that. Once you have about 500-1000 hours of that than start looking for turbine time (props and jets). Try picking companies with varied fleets for different type ratings, but the best time for the first 2000 hours is PIC time. I'd rather have 1500 hours flying piston props from places like Pickle Lake as a PIC than flying a regional Dash-8 as a co-pilot for Jazz from Pearson. The pay starts to get better once you have a minimum 2500-3000 hours, an ATPL license and a captains seat on a twin turbine. That's about 4 years after finishing your training.

Fire bombing is a cushy job due to lots of time off and you're working for the government (usually). They take guys with a lot of bush time flying straight floats and amphibs. Networking is most important here also.

Don't think that money is only in big jets. Problem there is becoming a captain for a mainline like Air Canada is long process and can often take upwards of 8+ years after being hired. But co-pilots there make good coin also.

I think contract work flying turboprops overseas is where the money is at. Dash-8, ATR, captains can easily make 120k a year doing rotational work. Even small 19 pax or less turboprops can make you 80k a year.

Aviation is not for everybody and you really have to have a drive for it if you don't want to waste money on training.

Not sure if resurrecting an old thread is okay, nothing against it in the forum rules thread.

Anyway, thanks CrackerJack for the info. I do have one more question for you. I'm interested in contract aviation overseas or other specialized flying; does age matter when getting into aviation and especially these fields?

I'm working as a security contractor after six years in the military and finally have the money and time to start a new career without stressing the financial aspect. I have always loved aviation but eventually found myself getting into skydiving due to the military and never had the time or funds to pursue it as a career. Until now. I'm 34, what age will I begin to be noncompetitive?

Again, thanks for all the info you have posted.

Post: #19

Not 100% related but I recently looked into becoming an Air Traffic Controller.

Pays well once you're qualified (at least here in the UK), 6 figure income is on the cards after a few years.

Apparently, the actual work is almost like a computer game - you have to manage like 12 different planes and trajectories in real time in 3d, making sure they keep enough distance between each other and none run out of fuel etc. Very much real in-the-moment work - no reports or spreadsheets or office bullshit, and once the day's over you leave your work at work. So its like a computer game that you play all day except "game over" is obviously quite a serious situation lol.

They usually work shifts for 6 days then get 4 days off, and then a month of vacation per year, which sounded quite cool. Also they only need minimal qualifications, - no degrees required - they rely mostly on whether you perform well in the pre-tests and intensive training.

Of course, it's not location-independent or too travel friendly, but you could probably get jobs in different countries every few years for sure.

Post: #20

I am not 100% sure but a private pilot license (PPL) can be obtained in the US for less than 10.000 dollars. Including all necessary hours of flying. I think you can use it to fly planes like Cessnas and Pipers during the day (no IFR flying). It's probably not enough to do something cool like flying Jay-Z to concerts in a Gulfstream jet..

I doubt you can use it to fly for money though. As for renting a plane (including fuel), here in Europe its about 120 - 160 Euros per hour. It's an expensive hobby, but it's something that interests me, too. I think one day I'll get that PPL.

Post: #21

(04-13-2011 07:39 PM)manilaguy Wrote:  Couple of retired pilots started a pilot school in the PI which would be cheaper and I believe fulfills the hour requirements, if this interests you.

In the Philippines? Do you know the name of the school?

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #22

I recently flew a small Cessna on a whim. It was a fun experience, and I think when I have the cash, I will take lessons and get my license. I looked into it and you can get your license for around $5k for all of the lessons. I believe a part of this is dependent on gas prices as aviation gas tends to be a bit more expensive (say $1.50-$2.00 more per gallon).

Of course, after taking the lessons, you will want to fly and then you have two options: buy a plane, or rent every time you want to go out. For most people, barring logistical problems, renting is the way to go. People who buy single engine planes typically get 30 year loans. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be stuck with a 30 year mortgage on a plane that is likely 30 years old. FAA regulations require a complete engine overhaul every 1800 hours, which could be every 15 years or so. These overhauls cost almost $20k.

I'd personally rather spend the money on travel or a business opportunity... but if you already have the cash flow and desire to fly, buying might be the better option.

Post: #23

(09-16-2012 07:57 AM)deuce Wrote:  Not sure if resurrecting an old thread is okay, nothing against it in the forum rules thread.

Anyway, thanks CrackerJack for the info. I do have one more question for you. I'm interested in contract aviation overseas or other specialized flying; does age matter when getting into aviation and especially these fields?

I'm working as a security contractor after six years in the military and finally have the money and time to start a new career without stressing the financial aspect. I have always loved aviation but eventually found myself getting into skydiving due to the military and never had the time or funds to pursue it as a career. Until now. I'm 34, what age will I begin to be noncompetitive?

Again, thanks for all the info you have posted.

It could be if you're applying to majors. It could be a plus if you want to get into business aviation (lears, gulfstreams, etc). Otherwise it shouldn't matter much until you hit 50 or so but by then you should have enough experience on something that somebody will want you anyway.

Post: #24

Since this thread is titled AVIATION/Becoming a Pilot, I'd just like to throw out there that a great alternative to being a pilot is being an air traffic controller. The pay is in the six-figures and beyond, you never work more than 8 hours per day, don't spend days/weeks away from home in hotels like pilots do and the job is rewarding as hell. You also do not need any college education at all to be a controller and I believe it's the highest paying job in the country you can get with no college. If anyone has any questions about ATC let me know.

Post: #25

I knew an older gentleman that flew private charter jets for celebrities. Had a wall full of pictures of himself with them over the years. He was ex-Air Force. I always thought he had a pretty cool gig, but seems like life sucks for the commercial guys.