Post: #1

Hi guys,

I've just finished reading "The Testosterone Syndrome" by Eugene Shippen, a very interesting book, on which I'll do a full review probs on my blog soon, but one thing totally stunned me: this guy recommends many guys with high Estrogen to actually start taking soy protein. I thought this was insane until I read his explanation:

"the chief importance of soy is that it is high in isoflavones, a type of phytoestrogen very similar in chemical structure to human estrogens but far weaker. Typically such estrogens have only about 1/500 the active effect of estradiol, the most active human estrogen. High levels of phytoestrogens compete with the female hormone for receptor sites in your body, block its actions - which can include some inhibition of pituitary functions - and stimulate the P450 system in the liver to more actively process and excrete excess estrogen".

This is contrary to apparently what most people seem to believe. A simple Google search indicates the fad is "soy increases your estrogen".

Time to hit pubmed and look for studies, but in the meantime interested in anyone's thoughts...

Cheers
Bodi

Post: #2

You should probably stay away from soy proteins for a few reasons:

• Soy is one of the most genetically modified foods on the market at around 93% of the market being GMO
• It does not encourage testosterone production as efficiently as animal proteins do. It is said that soy gets metabolized in your gut very quickly, so much of it does not reach the muscles. This paper talks about the reduced protein synthesis of soy in the muscles as compared to whey
• It can adversely affect your thyroid function for the worst as detailed in this paper
• It can be difficult for your body to process it generally speaking, as a good amount of people living in the Western world do not have the proper intenstial flora to metabolize soy
  

If you are intent on eating soy, try the fermented varieties like natto and miso, which are ubiquitous in Asian cuisine, otherwise stick to things like meat, eggs, chicken, cheese, and beans for your protein intake.

Post: #3

I'll repeat what I said elsewhere: the guy who grew tits was drinking a gallon of soy milk a day. Eating tofu or tempe a few times a week won't impact your performance. Just don't make it a primary protein source.

Post: #4

Soy isn't as absorbable as other forms of protein, namely whey. It's also often used as a cheap filler in many products advertised as high protein.

Plus what has already been said above.

Post: #5

Soy is not bioavailable (I think everybody else mentioned that as well) and can mess up your thyroid (again, not new information). There are much better sources of protein out there.

Post: #6

(12-16-2014 08:28 PM)Joga Bonito Wrote:  You should probably stay away from soy proteins for a few reasons:

• Soy is one of the most genetically modified foods on the market at around 93% of the market being GMO
• It does not encourage testosterone production as efficiently as animal proteins do. It is said that soy gets metabolized in your gut very quickly, so much of it does not reach the muscles. This paper talks about the reduced protein synthesis of soy in the muscles as compared to whey
• It can adversely affect your thyroid function for the worst as detailed in this paper
• It can be difficult for your body to process it generally speaking, as a good amount of people living in the Western world do not have the proper intenstial flora to metabolize soy
  

If you are intent on eating soy, try the fermented varieties like natto and miso, which are ubiquitous in Asian cuisine, otherwise stick to things like meat, eggs, chicken, cheese, and beans for your protein intake.

I agree - it's better to stay away from soy products altogether - except maybe from pure natural vitamin E derived from soy - but without the soybean oil.

The only soy product I would recommend and so do most nutritionists is non-GMO fermented soy/tofu. Unless you buy one with 100% USDA organic / EU organic certificate you should best eat fermented soy/tofu from Japan.

For healthy protein sources - whey protein or sunflower protein isolate is a much much better choice - even for someone on a strict bodybuilding diet.

Post: #7

But it's fascinating this doctor was using it to reduce men's estrogen and seeing results. Let's not forget the entire fitness industry is like a big pendulum, everybody follows the swing and suddenly there are a million papers and studies to prove it. Anyone remember 'low fat' diets in the 90's?

Perhaps, in fact, it's total genius: that the isoflavones in soy, because they resemble estradiol, fool the body into thinking it already has plenty, get it to reduce its natural level and then when they hit receptor sites just do 1/500th the damage.

A few more resources here:

http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=21778

and here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17885008
although the second one I can't interpret the scient-ese and work out the conclusion.

Post: #8

Ah, this is better, quotes some sources:

http://www.totalhealthmagazine.com/artic...r-men.html

and the meta conclusion was that soy protein didn't effect sex hormone levels in men.... which does not render the original argument null as I think Shippen was getting men to take it to block the effect of estrogen not so much the levels....

Post: #9

(12-17-2014 01:27 PM)BodiPUA Wrote:  But it's fascinating this doctor was using it to reduce men's estrogen and seeing results. Let's not forget the entire fitness industry is like a big pendulum, everybody follows the swing and suddenly there are a million papers and studies to prove it. Anyone remember 'low fat' diets in the 90's?

Perhaps, in fact, it's total genius: that the isoflavones in soy, because they resemble estradiol, fool the body into thinking it already has plenty, get it to reduce its natural level and then when they hit receptor sites just do 1/500th the damage.

A few more resources here:

http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=21778

and here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17885008
although the second one I can't interpret the scient-ese and work out the conclusion.

I'm on the train, but i'll bite. The level of soy his test subjects are consuming is probably low enough to not cause estrogen causing effects. It's when your soy protein source reaches 50% or more that you begin to see those effects occur. Wild guess.

Frankly, a little bit goes a long way but I would not want to be consuming it as my sole protein source.

Post: #10

OP if having high test levels and becoming a powerful virile man really matters to you... then just inject the real thing. Otherwise stop thinking about it and trying to negligibly affect it with gimmickry.

Post: #11

People are way too concerned about the presence of a little soy in their diet.

Some people are concerned that their proteins have soy lecithin in it. The soy lecithin used as 0 phytoestrogens. It will not make you grow tits.

Some people are concerned that drinking a soy shake or eating a bar with a few grams of soy protein will deplete all your manliness. Eating soy based foods will not deplete your testosterone unless that's all you eat.

Some people are concerned that soy will make you grow a third limb because its GMO. Yes, it's GMO but I guarantee that you're eating a much greater proportion of GMO foods than soy. Common GMO foods: canola oil, milk, corn, sugar. I don't like GMO as the next guy but it's the world we live in and I'm not going to single out soy from everything else that I'm eating that GMO.

There are a lot of other factors that will affect your testosterone much more so than a little soy here and there: not enough sleep, breathing in smog, not getting sunlight, and of course, skipping leg day

Post: #12

I never drink milk. Last week I bought a liter of soy "milk" and had it with wheat cereal. I spent the whole weekend farting, getting abdominal cramps and a distended belly.

Thats all I know. Im avoiding that shit like a plague.

Post: #13

(12-18-2014 03:14 AM)germanico Wrote:  I never drink milk. Last week I bought a liter of soy "milk" and had it with wheat cereal. I spent the whole weekend farting, getting abdominal cramps and a distended belly.

Thats all I know. Im avoiding that shit like a plague.

You could try Almond or Coconut milk.

Coconut milk is mostly fat so it has a very thick texture, probably not best with cereal.

Almond milk is mostly sugars so it's less thick and would be better with cereal.

Both are interesting in coffee. A great drink on a hot day is coffee, coconut milk and ice blended up.

I dunno, are these available in Mexico? If I recall your supermarkets can be eerily similar to U.S. supermarkets, so I would guess so.

Post: #14

It's a clever idea but there are better ways of lowering estrogen. I'd rather take an aromatase inhibitor and stick to whey and casein.

I'd also caution against eating a lot of tofu: http://roguehealthandfitness.com/dont-ea...ing-brain/

Post: #15

Yeah, I'm going to start taking an AI. My friend recommended a liquid arimidex called Anastrozole.