Post: #1

It seems that in some of the pickup material I’ve read, they have a scripted style of having a conversation on a first date. They mention certain topics that you should cover on a first date. My friend, however, told me about a completely different approach (the way he handles conversation).

My friend said that a conversation should flow naturally. When you first meet the woman, you start from small talk, like “how was your day?”, and you progress forward based on what you initially talk about. You pick up on cues and everything you say should be connected. You don’t just go off of a list and ask one question and when you get an answer, move on to something else. For example, he said you can start off with how was your day? Then she says it was boring. Then you ask her what she did. Then she says she just worked all day and didn’t do anything fun. Then you ask her where she works. She tells you where she works. You ask her what she does and if she likes her job. She tells you what she does and she says her job is boring. Then you tell her about your job and you say your job is also boring but the people who you work with are really laid back and fun to be around, yet they still work hard and get stuff done etc. Then when there is a lull in the conversation, you avoid an awkward silence by bringing up another topic that’s not necessarily connected to what you were just talking about. For instance, you’d ask her what she does for fun and she’d tell you and then you’d ask her about the hobbies she mentioned.

He said that there is no standard definition of what you talk about on a date. He said that sometimes first dates with different women can be completely different in terms of what you talk about. Sometimes, by the end of the date, you might not even know what she does for work or anything about her family because the conversation didn’t flow into those topics. For some women, those topics might come up, but it’s not necessarily a bad thing if you don’t find out what she does for work on a first date, for example. He said a first date shouldn’t be like an interview and you should just see where the initial small talk takes you.

Is this the proper way to approach conversations on a first date? Should I not worry about covering specific things and just move the conversation forward based on what we talk about initially? Or are there specific things that I should definitely cover by the end of the first date?

Post: #2

No no no, you should absolutely not worry about "covering" any topic. If anything, you should go out of your way to avoid covering the typical first date topics; they're boring, and your goal is to have fun. No scripts. Just go with the flow. If your social skills are too piss-poor to have a decent conversation on the fly, then all the "game" in the world won't help you, and you need to get off the Internet and go interact with people.

Post: #3

(02-25-2015 09:02 PM)h5757 Wrote:  Is this the proper way to approach conversations on a first date? Should I not worry about covering specific things and just move the conversation forward based on what we talk about initially? Or are there specific things that I should definitely cover by the end of the first date?

Ask yourself this question.

Guys that aren't into pick up, guys that just trying to get a date with a girl and bang her - what do you think they do?

Do they have talking points they want to hit?
Or do they just let the conversation meander wherever it wants to go?

Most guys are far too lazy to think about a conversation, so they just go with the flow.

Typical things give you typical results.

You can still get the bang, but you're not really in the game at that point.
You're not in control.

When you're not in control, you're at her mercy.

So if she wants to talk about Beyonce for 5 minutes, and you don't have a game plan, you're gonna talk about Beyonce for 5 minutes. Then Lady Gaga, then whatever tv show is popular, then she's gonna tell you about her stupid major or dumb job.

Essentially you did all the hard work of getting her to come out with you, only to give her the same experience that she'd get with any other mf'er out there.

Wing it if you want to, but you're wasting a chance to get good.

WIA

Post: #4

WIA- I want to understand a little more about your opinion. So you are saying that the guy should lead the conversation and bring up conversational topics instead of letting the conversation flow naturally? If the conversation shouldn’t be focused on being dynamic, what are topics that I should cover by the end of the first date or what are things that I should be saying?

Post: #5

Here is some advice from my prospective.

I have a good memory when it comes to books and what I read. I've memorized psychology, philosophy, medicine, theology, literature, and a lot of other boring shit that I quote verbatim word for word on dates. I do this to convince the women that I'm smarter than them and it also makes some interesting conversation when I ask them how they feel about something. Physchology talk eventually leads to me talking about how important love, affection, and sex is, which is always acceptable to them because I approach it from a different avenue than most people. Their first impression of me before the date is is usually a gym-rat, player, asshole, but after the date they usually tell me that they've never met anyone like me before.

My advice is that it's better to know a little something about everything than it is to know a lot about one thing.

Pick up these books. Usually one theory is only a page long and it's broken down where you can understand it. I highly recommend it for topics to be discussed on dates.

http://www.amazon.com/Psychology-Book-Id...0756689708
http://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Book-Id...0756668611
http://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meanin...080701429X

WIA also gave you great advice.

On the other hand, if you're dating 18 year olds, you should take someone elses advice because I don't have a clue what you should talk about.

Post: #6

The choice is not between using a word-for-word script and using no strategy at all. And no way in hell have you read legitimate pick-up material that recommends you to have an inflexible conversation structure.

Flirting and attraction is a verbal and physical dance, where you stimulate and respond to the girl you want to excite and undress. It is not a computer algorithm. That is why so much of game concerns reading body language, calibration, matching energies, eliciting values and then, in response, hit her specific buttons.

But most guys indeed have no strategy and most dates suck. Work today was boring? Where do you work? What do you have to do? I work at an office. Today I typed a really advanced spreadsheet. So what do you like to do for fun. This is even more boring than her job and shitty hobbies.

So no strategy means no results. And a script is robotic. You need both direction towards the goal and flexibility to match the conversation to her personality, her mood, the venue and unforeseen circumstances.

You need a basic date structure with possible talking points and activities.

The best example from this forum is Tuthmosis' First Date Recipe.

Most guys ask a girl out and meet up at a random bar, hoping fortune is on their side and the gods of poon throw them a bone. Since that means a million factors are unknown and can work against you, e.g. loud music, unfriendly staff, no intimate corners, these dates are like playing the lottery. And how often do we win the lottery?

Instead, only go for drinks and pick a bar that's optimal for private and fun conversations. You can see other people but they can't hear you, the music sets a sexy ambiance but doesn't distract, the lighting is flattering. You can easily bounce to another bar to increase the feeling of adventure, or walk to your apartment without a problem.

The same goes for conversation. You have a goal (that beautiful girl sitting next to you) and a plan to succeed.

You have some topics that increase attraction, e.g. traveling, partying, playing sports, taking mind-altering substances.
You have some topics that increase comfort, e.g. family and friends, animals, your ambitions for the future.

But you don't need to discuss them per se. You meet her and say hi. Make some small talk about the venue, the place you met, the couples on obviously uncomfortable dates next to you. And when it touches on a certain topic, say sex, you can guide the conversations to stories or observations that you tell more often.

"That reminds me of that one time when..."
"Why do you think you always see..."
"Have you ever noticed that..."

People without game do that as well. That quarterback at a frat party that always tells the story about that bender in Cabo. Or your mother at every family meeting who always shares that embarrassing childhood anecdote.

I always go into the date without a list of topics, but only because I have it internalized. I like to talk and after a while you obviously tell the same story more often, and fine-tune the way you build it up.

Have experiences. Have knowledge about fun topics. Find what is important to her. Find what is fun to her. Then you can reminisce about things you have in common, share your insights and opinions on what she seeks in a man and the conversation will flow.

Post: #7

(02-26-2015 12:10 PM)h5757 Wrote:  WIA- I want to understand a little more about your opinion. So you are saying that the guy should lead the conversation and bring up conversational topics instead of letting the conversation flow naturally?

The guy on a date is not a "discussion leader" with all that entails.

But you should be avoiding bad topics and focusing on good topics.

see below

(02-26-2015 12:10 PM)h5757 Wrote:  If the conversation shouldn’t be focused on being dynamic, what are topics that I should cover by the end of the first date or what are things that I should be saying?

The reason that you control shepherd good topics and cast out bad ones is that YOU'VE GOT A GOAL IN MIND AND A WAY TO ACCOMPLISH IT

Topic of conversation is just 1 tool that you have when you're out on the date.

Other Tools on a Date
- Conversation Topic
- Energy/Enthusiasm for said topic
- Opportunities to bond over a topic.
- Conversational Opportunities to show that you're not a push over, and you can be chill and disagree
- Topics that lead themselves to physical touching.
et cetera

The player just doesn't have a conversation.

If she wants to yammer on about her horrible work, then you probe her about
- the job
- the girls at the job
- the social dynamic
- how she feels about the work

You don't care about the answers per se, you care about generating those good feelings.
You also gain valuable intel about a chick and can incorporate that later.

When people remember, they reconstruct what happened (read Daniel Kahneman), and often relive what happened.

A lot of the guys in the mid to late 90's rehashed therapy techniques for running game. So they'd ask open ended questions like "what did you want to be when you grew up" - going for some sort of child like regression and hoping those good feelings carry on to him.

I'm not saying do that. But understand that's the sort of thing that you're trying to do.

So a regular dude's conversation is an exchange of words and information.

A player's conversation is an emotional journey for the girl. Maybe for both of them, if player gets swept up in what they're creating together

So there's the offensive part of the conversation - talking to her to get her emotionally involved and not just intellectually involved. You also gather intel about her behavior and what she has been attracted to.

The defensive aspect is through observation.

If a chick gets real defensive about something, or she shares something with you that you didn't need to know (I used to be a racist, I slept with a gay guy just to see what it was like, I like the Dave Matthews band) - then you're armed with valuable information.

___________

some topics you might want to cover
- relationships
- sex
- whether she's cheated
- how she spends her time
- her friends and family
- "hopes and dreams" (for a chick that you might want to lock down)

Some topics you'll avoid
- religion
- politics
- money or health problems on either side
- strong opinions on society and culture
- your own lecherous ways. (definitely suggest you have a past, but don't dwell on it. Let her paint her own mental picture)

_______________

With that said, topic selection is just the tip of the iceberg.
Screening for red flags, screening for DTF, compliance, long term compatibility, so on and so forth.

Any guy that tells you to just let the conversation flow doesn't realize how much he's wasting.

I've lost chicks that lost me with their yammering about their diabetes.
I've gotten the "googly eyes" by being able to bring out something in a chick that most guys wouldn't touch.
I've said things that have lead to "tickle battles" (and you know where that goes)

You can't just chat, conversation is too important.

WIA

Post: #8

I had an eye-opening realization about myself when someone said:

Most people get to know each other by asking and answering questions.
Some people make statements and watch how the other responds to that.

That's what I do and suddenly that made sense. I am always bullshitting and can make outrageous statements and watch the reactions. Do they believe what I say? Are they easily offended or easy-going? Nearly every girl comments that they never know if I'm being serious or fucking with them. They can feel I'm testing them and stay on their toes. When they see through it and return the favor, I dig it and it creates a bond.

And it all comes down to a simple game rule: A date is not a job interview. Statement-statement-question. Challenge them and make them work to get to know you. Girls want to feel like they have earned your attention, that you're a mystery that is not accessible to just any random girl. Then when you do open up and share your personal world, it's something special between you and her. (If only they knew.)