Post: #76

Again, whether or not someone is on PEDs is not really the point here. The point is that maintaining this kind of body fat level (10%) only makes sense for someone who has to perform as an athlete at a very high level, and for whom that consideration overrides everything else in his life, at least for that period.

Otherwise, going below 12% is suboptimal and undesirable. That does not mean that you will immediately experience some sort of severe damage -- that is not what is being claimed, and all these things vary a great deal depending on the guy, how old he is, his metabolism and native test levels and so on. But unless you are an athlete at a quite high level, there is just no good reason to do it, and it is very likely to do more harm than good -- as well as being a hassle to maintain, and involving an entirely unnecessary and unjustified deprivation. That is really all that needs to be said.

Post: #77

Suboptimal and undesirable for whom? The average person? I agree. But what about the guy trying to take his physique to the next level? Beyond just decent. The best his natural potential allows.

Remember, I am not talking about extremes. The levels athletes maintain their composition is not an extreme. It's for optimal performance.

Just because it's hard to maintain does not mean its ineffective. Doesn't even have to be maintained, depending on your goals.

Lizard, have you been 10%, and added muscle from there? What have your personal experiences been like?

I hope this is a discussion and not an argument, it can be difficult to discern this from posts alone. The former is more productive and would benefit the thread.

Additionally, just because you'd have to be meticulous about your diet at 10% does not necessarily mean deprivation.

None of these athletes - drugs or not - are deprived nutritionally, that's for sure.

Post: #78

Nascimento,

I believe that for most men, being as smart as possible, as happy and healthy as possible, and as horny and sexually avid as possible are very good goals, and should be more important than the goal of taking your physique to a "next level".

I also believe that, to the best of my knowledge of these matters, maintaining a diet that allows for your body fat composition to be 10% is suboptimal if you want to achieve these goals. You need plenty of high quality fats in your diet for your brains and balls to be juiced ideally well, and this is being increasingly recognized by people who have really looked into it. Guys that go on very low fat diets often end up depressed and undersexed. As with all these things, it varies a great deal from one individual to another -- but that is the tendency. In addition, they are missing the pure pleasure of eating foods that contain high quality fats -- and that should not be dismissed either. The satisfaction of a delicious, healthy, and well balanced meal is one of those things that are easy to underrate until you no longer have it.

Finally, there is absolutely no doubt that guys can make strength gains and add muscle at, say, 12% body fat. Maybe, all other things being equal, they cannot do it quite as efficiently as they could if they were even leaner; but all other things are never equal, and in this case the tradeoff, such as it is, is not close to being worth it.

Those are my opinions on this subject; I have nothing to add and no desire to argue about it further. Guys will have to make up their own minds.

Post: #79

(03-23-2015 02:25 PM)Spike Wrote:  Can you link to some products which do this?

http://www.ariseandshine.com/cleanse-pro...d-out.html

(03-23-2015 02:25 PM)Spike Wrote:  I'm still skeptical though because I don't think your bowels can get really get clogged with all kinds of residu but on the other hand, if arteries can clog, why not bowels. I just think a good case of diarrhea clears everything inside, how is it possible to have leftovers? Gross, I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucoid_plaque

Post: #80

@lizard of Oz. I'm still skeptical too. I think 10% is doable and healthy during summer season. Perhaps 12% in winter season to bulk up a bit more.
I still have to do a reliable measurement at the gym though (the one with calipers) so I can't be too sure.
I usually measure with a handheld device but numbers are sometimes all over the place. I'm between 10.5 and 11.5% on that thing but still have sizeable belly and back fat and the six pack isn't really super visible even when I flex. It wouldn't surprise if the real value were to be just above 12%.

Although I hope that wouldn't have to lose much more weight except for the belly. It's very visible in my face now. Cheekbones very visible, cheeks caving in, thight jaw line. I don't want the Skeletor look.

Regarding the fats. I don't mind eating healthy fatty food. I just don't want fat in my body. I eat two herrings a day (a typical Dutch food) and plenty of almonds. Herrings are super healthy. Just look at the stats. I eat them pickled (cheap) and sometimes raw (pricy)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herring_as_food

I feel quite fine, making gains in the gym and no more depressive than usual

Post: #81

I think you can still eat fats and stay at around 10%. Foods like avocados and nuts have decent amount of fat in them, but don't really make you gain fat.

Post: #82

(03-24-2015 12:07 AM)Ollave Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 02:25 PM)Spike Wrote:  Can you link to some products which do this?

http://www.ariseandshine.com/cleanse-pro...d-out.html

(03-23-2015 02:25 PM)Spike Wrote:  I'm still skeptical though because I don't think your bowels can get really get clogged with all kinds of residu but on the other hand, if arteries can clog, why not bowels. I just think a good case of diarrhea clears everything inside, how is it possible to have leftovers? Gross, I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucoid_plaque

Quote:Mucoid plaque or mucoid rope is a term used by some alternative medicine advocates to describe a combination of allegedly harmful mucus-like material and food residue that they say coats the gastrointestinal tract of most people. The term was coined by Richard Anderson, a naturopath and entrepreneur, who sells a range of products that claim to cleanse the body of such plaques by causing them to be eliminated. Many such "colon cleansing" products are promoted to the public on websites that have been described as making misleading medical claims.

Is linking that wiki page supposed to be in support of Mucoid Plaque? Because based on my read of it, it appears to be a sham.

Post: #83

My experience is that it's possible to maintain 9-10% bodyfat year round with no negative effects other than feeling the cold pretty badly. I'm genetically inclined towards leanness though which may make a difference. It's only when I've gone below 8% that things have got bad (freezing in summer, overly emotional, no sex drive at all, feet hurt to stand because of low body fat, and arse hurt to sit because of low body fat etc.).

With regards to adding muscle, for me it's a very slow process regardless of where my bodyfat is, so I'd rather stay lean.

Post: #84

(03-23-2015 08:08 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  I also believe that, to the best of my knowledge of these matters, maintaining a diet that allows for your body fat composition to be 10% is suboptimal if you want to achieve these goals. You need plenty of high quality fats in your diet for your brains and balls to be juiced ideally well, and this is being increasingly recognized by people who have really looked into it. Guys that go on very low fat diets often end up depressed and undersexed. As with all these things, it varies a great deal from one individual to another -- but that is the tendency. In addition, they are missing the pure pleasure of eating foods that contain high quality fats -- and that should not be dismissed either. The satisfaction of a delicious, healthy, and well balanced meal is one of those things that are easy to underrate until you no longer have it.

Who's to say that people below 12% bf are on low fat diets? Paleo/keto style eating involves plenty of high fat food. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you are confounding the two things.

I also think that your bodyfat guideline should be not to go below 10% rather than 12%. There are tons of healthy people within the 10-12% range. But I guess I'm splitting hairs.

Post: #85

2-6% body fat is essential for men. In other words that is all that is needed to be fine and healthy. Having a body fat below 10% is fine (and needed to see abs clearly), no man should have any problems functioning at those levels. Not saying 12% is bad, but a guy with lower (but still essential amounts of body fat) will have a few more pounds of bone and muscle and will therefore be a stronger and faster guy. It will ad a few more cms on your arms as well. Only fats that a man needs are ω-3s & ω-6s. The rest of the fats can be made by the body itself (though some sources have vitamins like Olive oil with Vitamin E).

Post: #86

(03-25-2015 08:08 AM)alexdagr81 Wrote:  2-6% body fat is essential for men. In other words that is all that is needed to be fine and healthy. Having a body fat below 10% is fine (and needed to see abs clearly), no man should have any problems functioning at those levels. Not saying 12% is bad, but a guy with lower (but still essential amounts of body fat) will have a few more pounds of bone and muscle and will therefore be a stronger and faster guy. It will ad a few more cms on your arms as well. Only fats that a man needs are ω-3s & ω-6s. The rest of the fats can be made by the body itself (though some sources have vitamins like Olive oil with Vitamin E).

Let's not spread misconceptions here.

Post: #87

(03-25-2015 11:02 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 08:08 AM)alexdagr81 Wrote:  2-6% body fat is essential for men. In other words that is all that is needed to be fine and healthy. Having a body fat below 10% is fine (and needed to see abs clearly), no man should have any problems functioning at those levels. Not saying 12% is bad, but a guy with lower (but still essential amounts of body fat) will have a few more pounds of bone and muscle and will therefore be a stronger and faster guy. It will ad a few more cms on your arms as well. Only fats that a man needs are ω-3s & ω-6s. The rest of the fats can be made by the body itself (though some sources have vitamins like Olive oil with Vitamin E).

Let's not spread misconceptions here.

I was not

Post: #88

2% body fat = you are dead

Post: #89

(03-25-2015 02:56 PM)civpro Wrote:  2% body fat = you are dead

Now I see where the misconception is. OK essential is enough fat to maintain life and reproductive abilities. Obviously, most people aren't going to be walking around at essential fat levels. The only time they maybe at that level is a stage show. 10% is a lot higher than 2-6% (point of reference would be probably over 6 pounds greater than essential fat for most). 10% is also the bodyfat percentage of one seeing their abs completely without flexing (for most men), so guys like Brandon Carter or Jonnie Candito on youtube are about that composition. I don't think anyone would say they struggling to survive.

Post: #90

Are you basing you theories on personal experience or roided up dudes on youtube? Go sub-10% body fat for most people without steroids and you WILL feel a difference in energy level. Have you actually gone that low without steroids? I feel like in this thread alot of people are making comparisons to people on roids. . . I would hope this is a place where we can be honest about whether we are on them or not.

Post: #91

I don't care about the science and I dont want to participate in a debate.
If you are chubby dude who has potato shaped body, chances are you will look like muscular potato if you lift. Unless that's what you want, I would just run around to trim the fat first before lifting weights seriously.

Post: #92

(03-25-2015 03:46 PM)Repo Wrote:  Are you basing you theories on personal experience or roided up dudes on youtube? Go sub-10% body fat for most people without steroids and you WILL feel a difference in energy level. Have you actually gone that low without steroids? I feel like in this thread alot of people are making comparisons to people on roids. . . I would hope this is a place where we can be honest about whether we are on them or not.

That's more than an overstatement. Not every dude on Youtube fitness channels is roided up.

Which YouTube Fitness personality is roided up according to you? Names please.

Post: #93

(03-24-2015 08:09 AM)Kieran Wrote:  My experience is that it's possible to maintain 9-10% bodyfat year round with no negative effects other than feeling the cold pretty badly. I'm genetically inclined towards leanness though which may make a difference. It's only when I've gone below 8% that things have got bad (freezing in summer, overly emotional, no sex drive at all, feet hurt to stand because of low body fat, and arse hurt to sit because of low body fat etc.).

With regards to adding muscle, for me it's a very slow process regardless of where my bodyfat is, so I'd rather stay lean.

I'm with Kieran and Nascimento on this one.

I regularly tested below 12% bf and often in the 9% during my competitive season back in the day. There were a few times I was definitely lighter/leaner than what I looked like at 9%. I didn't test ever during one of those times but I'm sure I dipped under 9 and that was when I felt a difference.

Now that I'm in the boxing gym a lot I see guys that lean all the time. But they are serious competitive fighters. They are spending many hours a week working their boxing, doing road work, calisthenics and maybe a bit of lifting too.

The forum seems to really beat on the 'lift heavy and do some sprints' thing, which is awesome, and a great way to be strong, have acceptable cardio, and look good. But the athletes whose pictures have been posted in this thread (an mma fighter, a soccer player, and a swimmer) are doing far, far more VOLUME than that. Train 20-30 hours a week with a mix of strength training, cardio and sport-specific training, eat clean, and then tell me how hard it is to maintain low body fat.

Post: #94

Let's do some mathematics.

(2% body fat is ridiculous bodybuilder broscience, see this study.)

You cannot just say that 12% is better than 10% without taking other factors into account. Since percentages are relative, adding muscle mass without becoming fatter will reduce your body fat percentage.

• 85KG @ 12% BF means 10.2KG of fat mass.
  

Add 15KG of solid muscle in your first two years lifting weights.

• 100KG @ 10% BF still has 10.2KG of fat mass.
  

Here you still have the exact same amount of fat that your body can use. You're not going to be performing less optimally just because your relative amount of fat has dropped.

You can be ripped and virile if you train intensely and eat clean, including eating all the fats you need and desire. The guys that lose their sex drive and energy are going overboard. Indeed, a prolonged caloric deficit and low fat diet just to shave off even more fat is not sustainable. It will ruin your mood and fuck up your hormones and metabolism. Even top bodybuilders are not at 4% for more than a couple of days.

Post: #95

@Spike

Well Alex mentioned Brandon Carter and and Jonnie Candito. I would bet all my money that Brandon Cater is juicing and I think it is extremely likely Jonnie Candito is too.

**edit* * Did a google seach, I would also bet all my money that Candito has used steroids before too. Disclaimer: I have used them before and some of my friends have (as well as a large portion of guys at my gym) . I think I have a pretty good eye for who uses. I don't have anything against them, just think its important to be honest about it when giving workout advice to put things into context. When I was about 10% body fat that was before I tried them.

Post: #96

Also, everything I've said is in the context of someone who has a full time job and just works out 1-2 hours a day. Not athletes training 20-30 hours a week.

Post: #97

(03-24-2015 04:37 AM)dasher Wrote:  Is linking that wiki page supposed to be in support of Mucoid Plaque? Because based on my read of it, it appears to be a sham.

Go do your own research and make up your own mind if interested and in doubt.
The clincher for me was getting to week three of the cleanse and seeing it in the bowl, duodenum striations and all.

Post: #98

(03-14-2015 08:59 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  The basic reality is very simple. It is this:

Any man, whether lean, fat, or in between, can benefit massively from lifting weights. Any guy who isn't lifting weights should start doing so. There is no need to wait to achieve any specific body fat percentage, or anything else.

Thank you for your post. I haven't lifted weights in the past few months consistently, for various reasons, some sound, some not. Your post helped me to resolve to get back to lifting as soon as I can safely manage. (I have been exercising extensively though, in various ways.)


**************

Regarding lifting and fat loss - I personally always lose weight when I stop lifting. If I don't lift for extended periods, I lose even more, but those later losses are more muscle loss, as opposed to the fat loss earlier on. I'm also a naturally slim person, and working out makes me slightly bulkier. Maybe because I never did cardio regularly before, and I'm sure my diet could've been tightened up a bit (though I don't eat much added sugar or wheat).

Post: #99

I know drug-free guys who are 8~12% BF all year round, but they tend to be smaller guys like myself (162lb) and also do a crazy volume of workouts and make being physically active a full time job equivalent. I only know of 2 bigger guys between 205lb and 230lb who are both that lean and drug-free. The rest are drug-free but fatter.

The bad symptoms of so-called leanness described above sound to me more like someone on a chronic caloric deficit and/or overtraining.

There are ways to get lean, stay lean while eating well and lifting heavy weights, without any drug use. If you don't know how to, say you don't know how, and maybe you'll learn something. If you've already decided that it's impossible, then there's nothing more to discuss.

Back to the original post, I can see how logical that may sound, but that's not how your body puts on muscle nor loses fat. You can indeed get bigger and leaner at the same time, at a modest pace. Not talking about something like losing 10lb of fat and adding 10lb of LBM simultaneously, but you can achieve (and I've been doing it myself for 18 months now) something modest like losing 5lb of fat and gaining 2lb of LBM, or gaining 3lb of LBM and losing 1lb of fat, every 3-4 months. Those numbers add up fast over a few years.

Post: #100

I'd be interested to hear more about your system for slow muscle gain and fat loss. I've achieved it myself at times by following a strength training program (531), keeping protein high, and eating at maintenance most days, and slightly below on rest days. However, my rate of strength and muscle gain was painfully slow, so I think I could really benefit from a more scientific method.

After Christmas I experimented with bulking for the first time in a long time, and even a modest increase of about 300 cals per day changed how I look for the worse in my opinion.