Post: #1

Imagine you were born in Poland into a lower middle class/middle class family.

Despite your parents having good jobs, their combined income is around 24-30k USD annually, depending on exchange rate. Wages are shit, life is pretty tough - a survival compared to Western standards.

You're a fresh graduate. Every idiot in the country has a degree because it's state-funded and because of the social and family pressure to get a degree. If you'll be lucky enough to get a job in a very competitive market, you'll probably get around 700-800 USD/month and won't see much increase over the next few years.
On that wage, you can rent a room or small studio and barely make it through a month. Forget about saving up for that new smartphone or that decent pair of leather shoes.

Basically your country is a joke, not just economically but socially and politically. Bureaucracy is rampant, taxes are huge, IRS is very invasive, public health care is terrible. Most of young people are fleeing the country, mostly to Germany, UK, Norway, Denmark and the like, where even waiting tables buys them a much more comfortable lifestyle.

You want out and you wanted it yesterday.

Upon the graduation you spend your last semester on an exchange in China.
You're amazed by the adventure and opportunity there, you developed connections, both professional and personal.

You've always wanted to eventually be an entrepreneur and had ambitious plans to earn shitloads of money and lead a location independent lifestyle.

But mind you, at the same time, you haven't had the luck to grow up in a 1st World and enjoy the privileges of it: being able to earn fair wages, being able to drive your own car by the early twenties etc.

Therefore you've always craved the comfort of living in a developed country and having more security as well as some 'luxuries'.

It's a little conflict between 2 cravings: one for adventurous, go-all-in ambition, the other for some comfort and security which you never experienced as an independent adult.


Then it comes. You're about to graduate and you win the Green Card lottery (1% chance of winning). You've always dreamed about moving to US in your teens but now come to think of it, you might have idealized it too much back then. After all, the days of American Dream are pretty much gone.


You can choose A - pursue the Green Card and move to USA:

-with no family or friend connections in US what so ever
-with about 3-4k USD of personal savings and your family being able to give you maybe another 3-4k at best
-with next to native, perfect English
-with decent soft skills but no technical (IT) skills

What would you do, start at the bottom of corporate ladder? Get a blue collar job?
Would life be tough as an immigrant? Would it be easy to make friends who have similar ambitions as you?

It takes 5 years of continuous residing in US on a Green Card to be able to apply for a citizenship.


Or you can choose B - go back to China and get your hustle on:

-teach English on side, being able to earn at least $20-25/h (a bit risky on a business visa but doable)
-hunt for a job outside of teaching so you can advance your career/skills
-keep expanding your network (easy for foreigners in China)
-leverage the lower costs of living and fewer working time needed to pay the bills and start some online business/hustle on the side
-get a fire under your ass and pursue the lifestyle of a digital nomad/location independent entrepreneur


Both options come with their advantages and disadvantages.

I have already chosen to come to China and while I can't say I've been doing poor, I'm still going through motions and uncertainties only to establish a more secure stay here (get a full time job with a working visa). So that I can learn some skills and start venturing out into some online hustle.

The job market here is very competitive and as a young and fresh graduate coming from EE, all the odds seem to be stacked against me. I have some work experience, I'm bilingual and speak basic Chinese, yet still - it's tough to find somebody willing to employ me full-time (outside of teaching). And even if I do find someone, it's been more and more difficult to obtain a work permit or any kind of visa for that matter. The government here is making everything increasingly more restrictive and it's a huge pain in the ass - particularly with visas.

So in the land where you push through massive crowds everyday, where personal space, orange juice, cheese and bread (let alone driving a car) are luxuries that come with very hefty prices, where people seem to lack common sense and there's a lot to be easily infuriated about, where I'd have to drive hours outside of huge urban area to enjoy some nature without crowds of people, I begin to wonder - was this the right choice?

And as a foreigner in China you're always 1 step of being deported from country. 1 brawl away. 1 road collision that leads to argument away. 1 Police raid at your office away. 1 boss-turned-enemy away. Even after 5-10 years of legally working and paying taxes, you're just that - a foreigner, an alien, 1 step away of being kicked out. And then, as opposed to your friends from developed Western countries - you have nothing to go back to.

(Whereas if you immigrated to US on a Green Card, you would be a respectable citizen with his own rights and privileges and eventually get the citizenship after 5 years)


So, if you had nothing to go back to, would you seek to enjoy a life in a developed country/US? Or would you get your hustle on in SE Asia/elsewhere despite the risks, uncertainties, stress and lack of comfort that comes with it?


I'm really curious to hear from your perspective.

I find it hard to imagine what my life would be like had I moved to US.
Working hard at a 9-5 before seeing some interesting options? Probably. For 1 year? 2 years?
Struggling to find a job other than working at McDonalds? Maybe.
Has the job market been so bad as I often read?

I know for sure that American women are the last ones I'd date, coming from EE I think I hate the self-entitlement and their attitude even more.

But then again there are some hot chicks among fresh immigrants and many entrepreneurs I know from online seem to still choose to live in US despite many other choices. Including some of the forum members.

Liberals, political correctness - I hate that crap. Would I be immersed by it living in US? Are all of those disadvantages about US enough to choose China/SE Asia instead? - those are the questions I often ask myself.


I could be driving a muscle car through almost empty and endless roadways, enjoying the nature, shooting stuff with guns - things I've been craving for so long. I could be enjoying all the conveniences - 24/7 gyms and drive-thru drugstores. I could have some more freedom. Instead, I'm stuck on a metro with Chinese migrant workers and smelling their breaths and worrying about my soon expiring visa and whether I'll be able to stay here for another X months. Then I have to drive my POS e-bike to a Carrefour 3km away across construction sites and lots of mess just so I can get the ridiculously overpriced oatmeal/<insert basic western food> - those are my thoughts.


But at the same time, I only have to teach 16h/week to earn 2x my monthly expenses, I don't have to be stuck in a cubicle unless I choose to, there's SHITLOADS of petite, sexy and feminine women walking around and eager to connect with a tall good looking white guy like me, there's plenty of opportunity to make money here. Networking is easy, especially with other foreigners. I can talk directly to CEOs and serial entrepreneurs and make friends with them. There's always something happening, there's never boredom. And outside the daily routine, life is pretty adventurous once I step outside the already known here. - those are also my thoughts

Post: #2

I am in the minority by thinking that the USA is still the best place in the world to make a good go of moving out of poverty. Granted I do live in Canada in a place that makes much of the USA look 3rd world, but in many ways that is why I like the USA.

Take Montana. Probably my favorite state. Much of the place looks like a dusty road house dropped into the rocky mountains. No one is in a rush, even in Missoula. And perhaps the most friendly people on earth. But shits old, run down. No sparkle or shine.

The back roads are decently graded and lead out to mountain lakes and rivers where families sit in chairs and kids swim around and dads fish. They might have a camper on the 4x4 or they are just out there with some other people from the church for a picnic.

The guys wrench on cars monday to friday, or build things with wood and metal. The shops that havent had to close down from big box competition will never close now, and the same smell of wood, oil and leather that appeared the day the shop opened, will always smell the same.

People still say things that others might find offensive, but no harm is meant. Guns are meant to be checked before entering the only pub around in 20 miles. Fights still happen, and everyone knows who with and why.

So China vs the USA for lifestyle? Its a no contest for me. All around me are Chinese people who filled their pockets with RMB and got the hell out. Life is so much more than banging women and making money.

Post: #3

You have a unique opportunity to experience life in the US first hand! I say you take it and thank me later. You are absolutely correct about cool things and freedoms that only possible in America..ie. driving muscle cars and shooting guns!
As a young,educated man with perfect English ( how did that happen btw?) you will not have any problems getting a decent job. Maybe something entry level..but not McDonalds -the job market is not that bad!
You've experienced China already - that's another reason to try something new and promising! Most Chinese and even Polish men would give their left nut to move to the US! You will not have another opportunity at this!
Don't be afraid to be stuck in America to maintain your GC - you need to be present 6 months out of the year. If you really need to leave for longer - you just cross into Mexico ( nobody will know) and come back when you need to.

Post: #4

Exciting position to be in, can't you do both ?

Go to the U.S for a couple of years, get the commecial experience over there and then make a move to China.
China is essentially a different world, and I think you could potentially go over there in your 30s/40s to conduct business and be at an advantage. You can also bank money from America, and use it to 'hustle' in China, or blow it on a high lifestyle if thats what you want.

I have traveled and lived in both countries, personally I would choose China but thats because I have just become fed up of American culture. As you mentioned the political correctness/liberalism, I generally can't stand, its almost puritanical and effects most spheres of life, even if you try to avoid it.

However there are many cool aspects to America, and you probably will be respected for gaining experience there. In the end of the day there is no right decision, so I just say go for it.


____

Oh actually edit that, if you are starting on the bottom of the period in America, I say fuck that. I thought you would be entering a professional job. With four months of being in China, you can move onto getting private clients and finding your own niche, go for that. Big cities in China, will be great for making contacts and having a good time. Holidays in Thailand and the rest of the SEA as well.

Post: #5

You can't judge a country just by reading the news (or RVF for that matter). People discuss unusual things, something that concerns them or they feel strongly about, but a lot of good things that people take for granted you can't really understand unless you come to the US and experience it yourself.

If you move to the US, you'll be able to choose pretty much whatever climate you prefer (from tropical islands to Alaska and pretty much everything in between). If you play your cards right, you'll get a good job and save more every year than you can earn in Poland.

If I were you I would give the US a try at least for a couple of years, then decide whether to stay or move on. I would start taking Coursera courses and such, brushing up on technical skills, writing a good resume and applying for jobs right now. All the knowledge and technology is out there, you just need to use it.

Just so you know, a lot of Chinese apply for investor's visas to come to the US. Actually, most applications are from China. If I remember correctly, they have to invest at least $500k in the US to get a Green Card. I also talked to a number of Chinese people who are in the US on temporary work visas. Men and women, very smart, many went to some of the best schools in the world, most of them dream of becoming permanent residents and don't want to go back.

Just food for thought.

Post: #6

You guys need to reread the OP's post. He is already in China. He is just having second thoughts due to the lifestyle there, and wondering what might have been if he had accepted the green card lottery. He cannot go to the USA now, when you turn down the green card lottery you don't get to hold the place in reserve.

Go-getter, you need to just make the best out of this situation. Thinking about what might have been if you had gone to the USA is a waste of time. It is useless and self defeating.

Right now, you need to focus. There are several forum members who are China experts, the two best are probably Suits and TravelerKai. Get in touch with them. Learn from them. They will probably be glad to help you maximize your earnings and opportunities in China, while also learning how to make the lifestyle there as good as possible. I'm sure they have lots of little tips on how to make the bad stuff tolerable, and the good stuff awesome.

Post: #7

(04-24-2015 06:40 AM)Go-getter Wrote:  I'm really curious to hear from your perspective.

I find it hard to imagine what my life would be like had I moved to US.
Working hard at a 9-5 before seeing some interesting options? Probably. For 1 year? 2 years?
Struggling to find a job other than working at McDonalds? Maybe.
Has the job market been so bad as I often read?

I'm one of the more negative people when it comes to U.S. culture and lifestyle. However, one area that I will admit that the U.S. has much better than most developed countries is the ability for the lower class or poor immigrant to move into at least lower middle to middle class with some work. The problem is that most immigrants that jump the fence or overstay are often undesirables that bring their own set of problems to the U.S.

If you're willing to put in the elbow grease and hustle you can at least lift yourself into comfortable middle class. You will start at the lowest rungs for sure but a few things work for you. Being white does help despite what people say as long as you don't lower yourself with the dregs. If you act respectable you will at least be given the benefit of the doubt in many areas of the U.S. I'd recommend leveraging your whiteness in some city that is majority white, high economic growth, and at least moderate in politics. Texas wouldn't be a bad bet but it's becoming very latino there. You might want to consider some high growth place in the south too like North Carolina or Georgia or something. Don't go someplace that is ultra liberal.

The job market is not good _if_ you're already middle class and don't have a specialized skillset or you can't hustle the system.

America is very much a dog eat dog, fuck you got mine, winner takes all type of country these days. Actually, the competitive spirit was always there but the stakes are much greater these days as the slice of the pie gets smaller and smaller for the average peon. You have loads of people trying every trick in the book to get a leg up. At the end of the day that's what all the racial politics, affirmative action, feminism, etc.. is about. It's about gaming the system for advantages.

Just keep that in mind. If you do go there be ready to play ball right away.

Quote:Liberals, political correctness - I hate that crap. Would I be immersed by it living in US? Are all of those disadvantages about US enough to choose China/SE Asia instead? - those are the questions I often ask myself.

It depends on the region. There are plenty of places in the U.S. that aren't liberal in the slightest. However, you'll be dealing with another form of ethnocentric blue pill thought. American conservatives can be just as rigid and dogmatic.

Post: #8

(04-24-2015 05:48 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  Just so you know, a lot of Chinese apply for investor's visas to come to the US. Actually, most applications are from China. If I remember correctly, they have to invest at least $500k in the US to get a Green Card. I also talked to a number of Chinese people who are in the US on temporary work visas. Men and women, very smart, many went to some of the best schools in the world, most of them dream of becoming permanent residents and don't want to go back.

Just food for thought.

For cashed up mainland Chinese, the U.S. is a wonderland. It's a place where you can stick your money relatively risk free into real estate, small businesses, and or other assets. It's especially great when you're fleeing P.R.C. government investigation that is hot on your tail and you need a safe haven for your money and family which just happens to be the geopolitical rival of China.

Post: #9

^My understanding is that the OP is a fresh graduate, so probably in his early 20s. If he moves to the US, by the time he gets a US passport, he will sill be in his 20s. Asia will still be there at that time with all the girls, good food and cheap travel.

If I were him, I would make this decision based on career options in the US vs China vs Poland and Europe. For now, I would ignore potential number of notches with attractive girls or any political/social issues discussed in the media. A young guy who stays in shape can always find girls in the US - Polish, Chinese, local or whatever he prefers.

We don't know all the details, such as OP's degree, skills and aspirations, but my point is that spending time in the US and getting a US passport will open more doors later on. He will still be young at that point.

He can join a company or start own business in the US, for example, and then move to Asia and become location independent, or he can earn enough money to become financially independent, or apply to a PhD program on a full ride scholarship in the US and then decide what to do. There are many opportunities out there in the US that beat teaching English in China and trying to hustle on the side.

Post: #10

Since you've forgone the green card option and are already in China, I won't bother spending many words comparing the two, although I will say that part of reason why I'm comfortable in China, is because I always have my Canadian citizenship to fall back on.

Your analysis in this regard is very spot on, but let's agree that five years just to get citizenship is a big investment if you end up not liking the place. Also, I have a lot of friends who are US born American citizens who are having a rough go of it right now. Kids with university degrees doing third shift cleaning jobs.

Since your skills are "soft," you might have ended up very poor in the USA.

But since you are in China already, this is what I would advise:

Stop working 16 hours a week. Double that. Now you're making 4x your cost of living.

Sure, you're busy, but you've got the satisfaction of knowing that as long as you can hang on for a few years of visa runs, you'll have banked enough money that you can easily just move your life to Taiwan, Hong Kong, Thailand, Vietnam, etc and pick up where you left off.

You might need to start learning a new language, but you'll have time for that if you leverage all the money you've saved into running a location independent business where revenue isn't closely tied to the number of hours you work each week.

Quote:On that wage, you can rent a room or small studio and barely make it through a month. Forget about saving up for that new smartphone or that decent pair of leather shoes.

What you may not realize is that being from Poland, as you've described it, may be a real advantage.

There are no doubt people back there in your shoes who'd love to buy an affordable smartphone or decent pair of leather shoes.

You've got two things to consider. How can you use your setup in China to hire Poland based employees on the cheap to make you money?

and/or

What can you sell to Polish young people who have very little money, but still want to own an affordable smartphone or decent pair of leather shoes?


I hold court in Beijing. Reach out any time you wish to.

Post: #11

Go Getter,
Listen to what Suits is saying. Follow his advice to the letter as he know his stuff about China.

Where in China are you?

To add to Suits excellent advice on seeing how you can leverage your position in China to build a biz exporting to Poland, I'd recommend you take a few hours and explore and devour the golden insights about doing biz in China on theelevatorlife.com and eventually getting in touch with these guys.

Best of luck and keep us posted please!

Post: #12

Does the option to move to the US still exist? It sounds like it doesn't, but then what's the point of creating this thread?

A visa to enter the US as a permanent resident is given for limited time (use it or lose it), so in theory it may still be valid.

Post: #13

Let's not forget that the OP is an EU citizen, so we should not be thinking that after turning down the US green card he's stuck between Poland or China. He can just as easily work in the UK, which so far as I can tell isn't really a step down from the US as far as earning potential and career are concerned. Now, if he didn't have that option, then I would say turning down the green card would have been a mistake.

Post: #14

(04-24-2015 07:53 PM)Suits Wrote:  Stop working 16 hours a week. Double that. Now you're making 4x your cost of living.

I've noticed pretty much every employer in China forces you to sign a contract that states you're not allowed to work for other employers or take on part-time work while you're employed by them.

So how do you stack jobs and get around this?

I have a full-time job, and seek to get another. I have two days off, and work during evenings on weekdays so I have free time. If I chose to do so, I could potentially work 7 days a week. Obviously I'd have to establish with my new employer that I need a work schedule that revolves around my first job.

Do they usually comply or no?

Post: #15

(04-27-2015 12:18 AM)Holy(Muff)Diver Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 07:53 PM)Suits Wrote:  Stop working 16 hours a week. Double that. Now you're making 4x your cost of living.

I've noticed pretty much every employer in China forces you to sign a contract that states you're not allowed to work for other employers or take on part-time work while you're employed by them.

So how do you stack jobs and get around this?

I have a full-time job, and seek to get another. I have two days off, and work during evenings on weekdays so I have free time. If I chose to do so, I could potentially work 7 days a week. Obviously I'd have to establish with my new employer that I need a work schedule that revolves around my first job.

Do they usually comply or no?

I either don't sign contracts with that requirement or ignore that requirement. I've been literally told by hiring managers to go ahead and just do whatever I want. If they want to fire you, they'll come with an useless excuse anyway. If you are making them money, you can basically get away with murder (to a point).

I lock down a day job first where work ends by 4PM every day. This will generally be a salaried 'full-time' position. Full-time usually amounts to fewer than 20 classroom hours, but will be tiring and will fill up your days, because the hours will usually be spread out over the day with lunch and period breaks in between. I avoid jobs with "office hours."

I don't get a "job" for the other work. Rather I find part-time work and accept work based on what time it is.

If I get offered a two hour teaching gig Tuesday night and have time for it, I take it. If it doesn't fit with my existing schedule, I pass and wait for a better fit.

Using this method, I've worked myself up to a fairly reliable day job with a visa and enough part-time hours Monday to Saturday to double the day-time job income.

I pull about 27K RMB per month, provided that I don't have too many classes cancelled on account of student illness or holidays.

I can live a reasonably luxurious lifestyle in Beijing (nice apartment, eat out weekly, buying the nicest ingredients for cooking at home) for 10K, so that leaves 17K many months to save for retirement, pay down credit cards/student loans or save for starting a business.

But a person could get buy easily on 5000K a month if they lived with roommates and didn't eat out much. That would mean that you could have as much as $3500USD EXTRA cash each month to put towards investments, etc.

It's a simple question of how much hustle you have.

(By eating out, I'm talking about nice places. In reality, I eat out daily...at restaurants that charge $2USD a meal, which is about as cheap as eating at home or brown bagging it).

However, plan your own classes with 4-5 students each class in people's homes at 100RMB per hour each student, and lock away 600-1000RMB for 1.5-2 hours of work each evening and 3200 each Saturday. That's 31000RMB per month for 18 hours of teaching and whatever prep work you need to do.

Post: #16

Hey Suits, I'm curious about life in Beijing and how to manage the positives and negatives. You seem to have carved out a niche for yourself there. I have a couple of questions:

How bad is the pollution when you are living there, how much does it impact day to day life, and what can you do to adapt to it/minimize the negative impact it has?

How do you handle banking? Is it safe for an American to deposit money in a Chinese bank account? Will the Chinese government take your money for arbitrary reasons, or hassle you when/if you want to change it to dollars or transfer the money out of the country? Is it necessary to hoard large amounts of cash and do border runs to HK or something?

Post: #17

(04-27-2015 08:01 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  Hey Suits, I'm curious about life in Beijing and how to manage the positives and negatives. You seem to have carved out a niche for yourself there. I have a couple of questions:

How bad is the pollution when you are living there, how much does it impact day to day life, and what can you do to adapt to it/minimize the negative impact it has?

I barely notice it, no negative impact. It might slow you down if you are running 10K a day training for marathons, but I've played plenty of soccer in Beijing and Tianjin (where the air quality is arguably worse) and never felt any negative effect from the air.

That's not to say that the air quality is good and I'd be hesitant to raise kids here, but for an adult with a healthy heart and lungs, it not as noticeable as everyone likes to say. Before 2007, no one talked about the air-pollution. People just talked about water quality back then and brushed their teeth with bottled water. Then the Olympics came along, the newspapers talked about air quality and no one has shut about it since. But no one talks about the water any more.

I've had people tell me that they often can't see across the road. I've spent several years in Beijing and NEVER seen a day like. I'm not saying its never happened, but that would be very unusual.

If you come to Beijing, you'll have problems a lot bigger than air quality.

Quote:How do you handle banking? Is it safe for an American to deposit money in a Chinese bank account? Will the Chinese government take your money for arbitrary reasons, or hassle you when/if you want to change it to dollars or transfer the money out of the country? Is it necessary to hoard large amounts of cash and do border runs to HK or something?

I wouldn't put it past the government to steal your money, but I've never heard of that happening.

You are limited to exchanging $500US per day into other currencies.

Some people have complained that every time they do this at a bank, there is a complicated procedure where they have to prove that they paid tax on the earnings and that the money was earned legally.

I don't have this trouble, because I know an easy way around that. I'll fill you in on the available solutions if you end up in China.

Post: #18

First of all, thank you guys for your opinions and insights, they've been valuable to me.

It's been a while since I read your replies. While I didn't have time to respond, I went through number of thoughts during that time. I'm gonna try to address several ideas/issues separately so as to keep it more clear:


Thought 1. Fast paced economy means opportunities. During my time in China, I've met a quite large number of Americans and this is what I've learnt/heard from them:
-Their friends back home in US are stuck in a rut working 9-5 jobs while some Americans I met hustled hard for few years and got businesses off the ground (most of them started out like many expats do - teaching English). Same background, same college, just different decisions after college.
-'Our one year contract in <Tier 3 city> is ending. It's been amazing journey, that kind of saving and traveling would have never happened in America' - some beta white guy in late 20's about his ESL contract that merely paid within 8,000-10,000 RMB.

And a bonus coming from a Canadian (guy is on a well paid contract):
-'What you make vs cost of living here kicks the crap out of many places. Life is easy in China. Full time ayi? No problem. Want to do whatever you want? No problem. This fast paced economy makes it really simple to live a "higher quality" life on the same compared to what you can do on the same salary abroad.

China is an easy life. Not for all, but if you have it good here, you have it really good here (barring the sacrificing a few things such as personal space.)'


Thought 2. Networking is easy, Expats are a small group compared to the population. You can short-cut your way here using connections.

While I'm just a fresh college graduate with some brains, ambitions, languages and good looks, I'm not anyone special, I don't have any remarkable achievements. But this doesn't stop me from meeting, hanging out, keeping in touch and befriending people who:

-Run (sometimes multiple) 7 figure businesses
-Have been living here for 7-12 years and are pioneers in importing product X to China
-Run successful online businesses, create apps you use and websites you read
-Are global experts in trading and sourcing in China
-Are CEOs of medium sized companies (thinking more about Chinese people here)

While places like expat areas in Shanghai might be too socially competitive to befriend such people, it is certainly true as soon as you get away from those major centers. Even Shenzhen (where I live) is welcoming for a person like me to be networking with people like this.

I used to live in a small 3rd tier city. I accidentally met a Polish guy who was apparently one of the 3 Polish people living there. Even though he's 11 years older than me, we became buddies. Now he's switching from teaching English to running his China-Poland export/import business full time. I can see him retiring fairly rich in Philippines in next 6-10 years.

Quote:Does the option to move to the US still exist? It sounds like it doesn't, but then what's the point of creating this thread?

A visa to enter the US as a permanent resident is given for limited time (use it or lose it), so in theory it may still be valid.

It doesn't exist anymore. While winning the lottery didn't guarantee actually getting the Green Card, given that I was able to get an appointment despite late Case Number meant a quite high chance of getting it.

Now with that said, I can apply for future DV lotteries (every year in October I think) as long as my country is eligible to participate in them. So far it's been eligible for few years in a row after a long break. I'll consider applying for future DV lotteries just so I can broaden my options in life (it doesn't cost anything).

Quote:As a young,educated man with perfect English ( how did that happen btw?)

I guess I had a solid foundation after doing an English course in a renowned language school for 5 years in my early teens. From there I just gradually immersed myself more and more with English and American culture. By the time I was around 19-20, I would surf the web, read and listen to content (and create content) in English only. I always knew I would move out of Poland and found English language to be much better in terms of expressing my thoughts in a clear, precise and logical manner. Polish doesn't even have compound nouns for example.

Quote:Go-getter, you need to just make the best out of this situation. Thinking about what might have been if you had gone to the USA is a waste of time. It is useless and self defeating.

That's for sure! Although I must say that some of the comments here along with descriptions of Montana have made it very easy to fall into the trap of regretting and beating myself up.

Quote:To add to Suits excellent advice on seeing how you can leverage your position in China to build a biz exporting to Poland, I'd recommend you take a few hours and explore and devour the golden insights about doing biz in China on theelevatorlife.com and eventually getting in touch with these guys.

I did get in touch with those guys and became a member of their business networking community. Many valuable connections from that, and new ones are coming in.

Quote:Let's not forget that the OP is an EU citizen, so we should not be thinking that after turning down the US green card he's stuck between Poland or China. He can just as easily work in the UK, which so far as I can tell isn't really a step down from the US as far as earning potential and career are concerned. Now, if he didn't have that option, then I would say turning down the green card would have been a mistake.

That is most definitely right. I can go and live (and work) in UK, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Holland, Denmark, whatever - and I don't even need my passport for that. Actually one summer I went to London with just my Polish id (my new passport was in the making) and was able to easily find a well-paid (for an undergrad) work there. Ended up sucking it up with a lower class Italian in 1 room and saving about $3000 in 1.5 month, which then later helped my move to China.
But I wouldn't want to live in UK. For one, it's too infested with 3rd world migrants and EE lower class migrants, Polish included. Weather sucks and I don't dig the culture that much. Although their electronic music with its club scene is world's #1.

Furthermore, as far as I am concerned, it's been gradually more easy for Poles to immigrate and work in Canada and Australia. Not necessarily step downs from USA in terms of landscapes, freedoms, options and such.

Quote:My understanding is that the OP is a fresh graduate, so probably in his early 20s. If he moves to the US, by the time he gets a US passport, he will sill be in his 20s. Asia will still be there at that time with all the girls, good food and cheap travel.

You are definitely right. But what is also right, is that the markets in Asia are very dynamic, the opportunities in China have been there mostly since last 10 years (before it was a more unexplored market for tough hustlers like Vance Miller), the landscapes of all industries are changing fast. I believe it's good to be in a hot place like this at such a young age and throw myself at different things until I figure out what exactly I want to do. I intend to try to get some businesses off the ground and fail a lot. And if and when I do make big money, the US will still be there - with all the roads, muscle cars, guns, stunning landscapes and no language barrier for me to enjoy. On a tourist visa, as a 6 month vacation for instance.

Quote:We don't know all the details, such as OP's degree, skills and aspirations, but my point is that spending time in the US and getting a US passport will open more doors later on. He will still be young at that point.

I agree with having more open doors after becoming a US citizen. However, Polish passport isn't exactly a far cry from US one at 10th rank in the world and about 7-10 fewer countries I can travel to without a visa.

What really opens the doors I think is money. But not just money, money without free time and location independence is not any good. Money + time wealth + location independence though... You can be vagabonding (or doing whatever you please) like a king.

I do believe that China and SE Asia are some of the top choices when it comes to setting up businesses and becoming an entrepreneur, both B&R and online. With more emphasis on the latter, think low costs of living! I've heard some of the hottest communities of young people trying to grow their online/trading/selling businesses are based in Chiang Mai and Ho Chi Minh, both a 2 hour flight away from where I am. And Shenzhen China is a good place for that too.


And this boils down to 'making it average' in US vs 'making it big' in SE Asia. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've been holding this belief that if I decided to migrate to US, I would be stuck in a 9-5 rut, striving/struggling to go from a 1st gen immigrant with no money to an ordinary middle class US level. While right now I can't think of a better vacation than doing a few month road trip in US, if I lived there the novelty of everything American would eventually wear off. I might be wrong again but to me it seems like you can make big breakthroughs in Asia as a young entrepreneur as long as you hustle hard and have the determination and perseverance. Plus it's a hell lot more adventurous.

Thing is, I've been having big ambitions. Maybe too big for my capabilities, time will show. But getting comfortable in corporate America is not one of them. I know many Polish people who get very comfortable after immigration to UK. After all, then they have all the things Brits took for granted - an income that allows a normal, comfortable living and raising your kids. A government that doesn't fine you and fuck you over for all the smallest details.
While getting comfortable definitely has its appeal, there is a voice in the back of my head that tells me I shouldn't get comfortable. I believe a life of serial entrepreneurship and adventurous vagabonding is much more worth living.

I might be coming up with excuses to support my decision because it's the most natural and subconscious thing to do, but I believe both choices would ultimately have had their pros and cons.


There's still probably several issues I didn't address here but I don't want to turn this into an Essay. While I'll still probably have those doubtful thoughts and small regrets in future (especially on those Chinese-breath-infested-super-crowded-metro-rides), I'm really glad I got those out of my system and bounced some ideas around with you guys. Nothing better for a 23 yo me than to put those ideas out there and test them against reality and men with far more experience and knowledge. Clarity++

Let's keep this thread going

Post: #19

1 more thing I forgot to add. AFAIK, USA is the only country to enforce taxation on its citizens living and working abroad.

http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/blog...gn=FB_2015

That could also be one of the reasons of the biggest ever and growing number of people renouncing US citizenship.

Post: #20

That corporate gig you dream of in the USA gives you two weeks vacation to start. Don't forget your healthcare which you will have to deduct from your salary.
You have an EU passport, pick a country and make a go of it. Germany perhaps or even Hungary, choice is yours.
Since you speak some Chinese, I would stay there and get fluent. I cant imagine there are many Poles that speak Mandarin. Start a business and import stuff back to Poland. I think you already answered your own question.

Post: #21

Go-Getter, I'm still not sure what the point is of starting this thread. You've made your choice. Looks like you have enough ambition and talent to succeed in China. Just stay the course.

Post: #22

Teaching China will still be there a few years down the road. To Diversity Visa lottery won't necessarily be waiting for you a few years from now. Go to the U.S. Your experience will be invaluable, even if you want to move to China in a few years.

Post: #23

Quote:Go-Getter, I'm still not sure what the point is of starting this thread.

One of the reasons was to get those thoughts out of my head and confront them with reality.
I could be thinking all week about what would my US experience look like but I've never been to US. Many of you guys, on the other hand, are from there.

So now that I've confronted my ideas and laid them out on 'paper' I can have much higher clarity and just cut those self-defeating thoughts of doubt in the future.

Post: #24

This is a no contest.

USA all day long.

China is, frankly, a shit hole.

The USA has some incredible places to live - NYC, Chicago, San Francisco...

So says me. A Brit that lIves in the US for past couple years.

Post: #25

I tell you now...

There is no could try better than the US if your goal is to get rich. There is shit loads of cash floating around. If you have drive and intelligence, you can make great dough.