Post: #1

I like writing songs and have always thought about trying to sell them. As I understand it, a lot of artists write their own stuff now (correct me if I'm wrong) so it's harder than ever to break in.

Anyone have Intel on this industry?

Post: #2

Very few megastars write their own music anymore - problem is the only ones worth writing for are the ones who have a vested interest in creating music, rather than revenue, and so don't need ghost writers

Ghost writing music is potentially insanely profitable, but not really viable without destroying every last bit of integrity the piece has, and a very difficult field to build a stable career in without already having connections out of your ass.

Honestly, you're probably better off performing your music a couple nights a week at your local pub. You'll likely earn more and almost certainly pull more

If you're dead set on the idea your best option is to sell music written for ads or movies - someone is getting paid every time you hear that stupid fucking background music from that annoying ad you hear 3 times every break

Post: #3

Hey BB,

I've been earning a full time living writing songs since 2011. I can either answer some questions here or we can talk via pm/offline. I'd love to help in any way i can.

Post: #4

(07-05-2015 07:09 PM)QuillanGornt Wrote:  Hey BB,

I've been earning a full time living writing songs since 2011. I can either answer some questions here or we can talk via pm/offline. I'd love to help in any way i can.

Could you give a basic overview of how you make money at this? I've been writing songs for years but have never done much with them.

Post: #5

(07-05-2015 07:42 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  [quote='QuillanGornt' pid='1058400' dateline='1436141375']

Could you give a basic overview of how you make money at this? I've been writing songs for years but have never done much with them.

Sure,

I mis-edited my original message before i hit "send". I've been making a full time income by songwriting since 2008. I started making six figures a year in 2011. Although my income hasn't increased year-over-year since 2011, it hasn't decreased either..

Architekt is 100% correct, writing music for Films, Ads, TV Shows etc.. is the way to go.

Many times a NETWORK TV show will blow 90% of their weekly music budget on a huge hit song to use in the episode. They'll fill the rest of the show's non-scored music needs with indie artists and music libraries.

If you can finagle your music into these shows they'll usually pay $2,000 - $10,000 to use your song. Once you get a couple of these "placements" under your belt, you can approach a music library (many of which are owned by Universal, Sony, Warner Bros etc..) to give you some custom songwriting work. Usually these companies pay $5,000 - $10,000 for you to make an album of songs. Then the library becomes responsible for getting them on Films, Ads, TV Shows etc..

Doing custom music for Ads is the most lucrative (think Charlie from Two and A Half Men) but it's also very demanding.

Hope that helps!

Post: #6

(07-05-2015 08:51 PM)QuillanGornt Wrote:  

(07-05-2015 07:42 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  [quote='QuillanGornt' pid='1058400' dateline='1436141375']

Could you give a basic overview of how you make money at this? I've been writing songs for years but have never done much with them.

Sure,

I mis-edited my original message before i hit "send". I've been making a full time income by songwriting since 2008. I started making six figures a year in 2011. Although my income hasn't increased year-over-year since 2011, it hasn't decreased either..

Architekt is 100% correct, writing music for Films, Ads, TV Shows etc.. is the way to go.

Many times a NETWORK TV show will blow 90% of their weekly music budget on a huge hit song to use in the episode. They'll fill the rest of the show's non-scored music needs with indie artists and music libraries.

If you can finagle your music into these shows they'll usually pay $2,000 - $10,000 to use your song. Once you get a couple of these "placements" under your belt, you can approach a music library (many of which are owned by Universal, Sony, Warner Bros etc..) to give you some custom songwriting work. Usually these companies pay $5,000 - $10,000 for you to make an album of songs. Then the library becomes responsible for getting them on Films, Ads, TV Shows etc..

Doing custom music for Ads is the most lucrative (think Charlie from Two and A Half Men) but it's also very demanding.

Hope that helps!

This helps a lot, terrific post.

A few questions I have for you;

How much money do you put into production?
Can you record all of your music from a home recording set up? Could your type of income be generated from a decent home recording set up?
Would Logic Pro, Pro-Tools suffice?
Would Garageband be enough?
Whats a home set up look like that would work for this work?
Would using drum loops for a typical guitar, drums, bass, keys track suffice?
Would spending more on production(live tracks, actual studio time, mastering), produce more revenue?

The opportunity I see right now for music is online video, Youtube videos, etc.

Post: #7

(07-05-2015 10:56 PM)Vaun Wrote:  [quote='QuillanGornt' pid='1058483' dateline='1436147469']
[quote='General Mayhem' pid='1058422' dateline='1436143354']
[quote='QuillanGornt' pid='1058400' dateline='1436141375']


This helps a lot, terrific post.

A few questions I have for you;

How much money do you put into production?
Can you record all of your music from a home recording set up? Could your type of income be generated from a decent home recording set up?
Would Logic Pro, Pro-Tools suffice?
Would Garageband be enough?
Whats a home set up look like that would work for this work?
Would using drum loops for a typical guitar, drums, bass, keys track suffice?
Would spending more on production(live tracks, actual studio time, mastering), produce more revenue?

The opportunity I see right now for music is online video, Youtube videos, etc.

Glad this can help, I'm stoked i can contribute some info to the site.

Hmm good question, sometimes i spend $0 on production, other times it can run around $1000 per month. It depends if I'm hiring singers, rappers etc.. I don't usually spend money on mixing or mastering..

Logic Pro or Pro-Tools would definitely suffice. Whichever DAW you're most comfortable with is the best one to use..

Garageband would be enough to make music for super low budget reality shows like Swamp Pawn Repo (not a real show). Higher budget reality shows and virtually all un-scripted content have a professional music curator that can spot a garageband loop a mile away...

A good home setup would include a computer that meets the minimum standards for the DAW and any sort of third party plug-ins. A nice multi use microphone like a Shure SM58 or similar. Some decent monitors with a sub woofer would be ideal, but lots of people get by with just a laptop and headphones...

One thing you don't want to skimp on is the interface. Get a nice Apogee Duet or one of those mini apollo interfaces. They're not cheap but you can definitely hear a difference.

Drum loops are fine if you edit the loop in such a way that makes it sound less "loopy" if that makes sense. There are a few third party drum modules that have performance menus that are 100x better than apple loops. For a couple hundred bucks you have dozens of drum performances that you can throw some guitar, bass etc.. on and have a great sounding track

Nah no need for a big studio or mixing/mastering engineers. The only time my stuff gets "professionally" mixed is when a music library pays for it, and 19 times out of 20 the version i completed at home sounds better than the professionally mixed/mastered version..

Regarding YouTube vids..there's definitely a market for that, but the budgets are so small it only makes sense to do if you already have a bunch of tracks you've made for TV, Film etc.. and just want to augment your income..

For instance, a buddy of mine makes around $100,000 a year and spent a few days uploading his music to a bunch of sites that furnish music for people's YouTube wedding videos, vacation videos and the like. He makes just enough from that per month to pay for his health and car insurance. He sees it as a win because a few days work is paying for his insurance, but he didn't write the music specifically for those sites. He wrote them for reality shows which air multiple times a day, 7 days a week. Each time his tracks air on TV he gets paid..

Post: #8

Awesome, I knew there'd be someone out there doing it. Thanks a lot for chipping in.

So is it pretty much a requirement that you come up with the music for it too or is there also a market for those who strictly write lyrics?

I fuck around with a guitar a little but have just started teaching myself so I can put some basic chords to the stuff I write. While I understand some of the fundamentals of songwriting, my musical knowledge is very limited.

Obviously you'd want to study up if you were going to try to make money with it, but is there a market at all for strict lyricists where the needs for production knowledge are pretty basic at the entry level?

Post: #9

Pro tip: Once you finish a work, and tailor it for the market (be it recorded or selling) make sure to set up a publishing company

Become a member of a Publishing Rights Organization(PRO)SESAC, BMI, ASCAP, that's how you monetize your works on the back end. It also helps prove ownership should you run into a lawsuit of any kind.

The split is 50% writers and 50% producer's

If you are a writer for hire, than you would normally attach a fixed rate to your songs, but I recommend having your publishing tight just in case the artist records the song and it blows up worldwide

I personally have a publishing company affiliated to SESAC since 1998, best move your can make along with copywriting your work

Post: #10

(07-05-2015 11:56 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  Awesome, I knew there'd be someone out there doing it. Thanks a lot for chipping in.

So is it pretty much a requirement that you come up with the music for it too or is there also a market for those who strictly write lyrics?

I fuck around with a guitar a little but have just started teaching myself so I can put some basic chords to the stuff I write. While I understand some of the fundamentals of songwriting, my musical knowledge is very limited.

Obviously you'd want to study up if you were going to try to make money with it, but is there a market at all for strict lyricists where the needs for production knowledge are pretty basic at the entry level?

For sure,

In this instance, I'd find someone local to ya (Cambodia right?) that has a great voice and knows a little English, but speaks it as a second language. For instance, they would know how to pronounce something like "busted then got ghost, call me ghost buster" but they wouldn't know what it means and/or couldn't think of that on their own..

In every major city around the world there's a small contingent of kids in their early 20s that sit at home and make dope ass music but barely go outside. They have dozens of tracks sitting on their hard drive that need a nice vocal. They'll probably have a microphone set up to record as well. Seek them out online via music production websites, craigslist etc..

Keep me informed as to how it works out, I'm sure a lot of us would be excited to hear some tracks!!

PS Thanks for the reps!!!

Post: #11

^Solid idea. It just so happens I have some good connections with a crowd of musicians in Phnom Penh, some of whom are pop stars here in the country. Certainly a lot of musical talent even just lurking around them, and all set up to record.

Pm'ed you something I'm working on.

Post: #12

Not a songwriter or musician myself, but was reading up about a "tech"company on Bloomberg a while back that is to music sort of what Getty Images or Shutterstock are to photographs/images. It is called Jingle Punks:

https://jinglepunks.com/

It struck me as a brilliant way that musicians could have at least a shot at making money off their hard work. You'd have to check the licensing arrangements, but it seems legitimate.

Let me try to find the article, which explains the concept better than their site.....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2...-alley-mix

Post: #13

QuillanGornt - what's your experience (if any) with trying to sell purely original music B2C?

That is, songs that haven't been composed for any particular purpose other than to be listened to.

My understanding is that if you want to go this route you need to:

A) learn the fuck out of online marketing/copywriting/launches/funnels and "launch" your music like any other digital product

B) Supplement with live performances

Maybe some of you guys have seen John Ozjasca's Music Marketing Manifesto, which is basically a direct response marketing course for musicians.

I also briefly worked with a guy who does digital launches for popular musicians but these particular musicians are selling 'how to' courses rather than pure original music (which is much harder to sell).

I'm a songwriter too and my interest isn't really in playing live at this point, but simply composing my own tunes and selling them online directly to 'fans'.

I realize this is rather difficult but I've been in the marketing game long enough to know that if you have a decent-sized list of people who like you and your stuff, a funnel, an understanding of launches and music that doesn't suck total balls, you can make a living doing it.

I just haven't done it...yet.

Here's one of my original tunes, this is the kind of stuff I'd like to write/sell.

Post: #14

Nice VV - you've got a good voice. You used to sing opera, right?

I just wrote a new song and I think it sounds alright. As you can see, it's rough still, my guitar playing is very basic, and it's recorded on my phone. It is what it is.

I'm Here.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #15

Beyond Borders, you've got a good voice, perfect for Eagles and the like. Get a USB mic, cheap one is a Blue Snowball. Next, learn how to tune your guitar, it's soo out of tune, use a headstock tuner, this'll do http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-SNARK-SN-5...4ac0f2c4db - and use a light plastic pick for strumming. You have a good vocal tone.

Vincent. Nice recording with your usb mic, very nice chords! I'd change the vocal approach entirely though, it sounds overly formal. Those chords and that vibe needs a laid-back vocal vibe... something like Jack Johnson - https://youtu.be/OkyrIRyrRdY - get a lot of air in your tones, completely de-harden it, it'll sound better IMHO. Just some unsolicited advice : )

Post: #16

(07-10-2015 12:44 PM)Zep Wrote:  Beyond Borders, you've got a good voice, perfect for Eagles and the like. Get a USB mic, cheap one is a Blue Snowball. Next, learn how to tune your guitar, it's soo out of tune, use a headstock tuner, this'll do http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-SNARK-SN-5...4ac0f2c4db - and use a light plastic pick for strumming. You have a good vocal tone.

Vincent. Nice recording with your usb mic, very nice chords! I'd change the vocal approach entirely though, it sounds overly formal. Those chords and that vibe needs a laid-back vocal vibe... something like Jack Johnson - https://youtu.be/OkyrIRyrRdY - get a lot of air in your tones, completely de-harden it, it'll sound better IMHO. Just some unsolicited advice : )

I agree on both counts with this assessment. I'd like to add that VV, you may want to sing more of that song up an octave. Maybe not all of it, but the brief parts that are in the middle part of your range seem to work better. I only say this constructively. I enjoyed both of the videos.

Post: #17

Thanks for the encouragement Zep.

Agreed on the guitar. It's a $60 beater I grabbed off my friend here in Cambo. Tried tuning it using an app but it clearly is not working. Haha

I feel like I could have a lot more fun with it if I actually took some time and learned to play the thing.

I'm Here.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #18

If you want to pull, it's important that you perform the song. Women love men with musical talents and it's important that you showcase that. If you write songs
for another guy, you're not going to get the recognition or perks.

You can make a solid career of songwriting, sure, but if you want the adulation, you need to perform your material.

Post: #19

I've always wondered about this, actually, thanks for starting up the thread BB.

I like the idea of sharing our music together on RVF, so I might as well make my own little contribution. I made a throwaway youtube account and uploaded a little piece I made for a friend of mine who passed away (the first 1:10 or so original, the rest based on some obscure victor wooten bass instructional video that I remember from years ago). I'm only just now starting to get a decent feel for guitar, so as you can see in this video, I'm just doing what I do on bass, but applied to guitar.





(Apologies for the awkward crotch shot, it was one of the few videos I could find without my face)

I'd be very curious to see what kind of stuff other forum member make!

Getting back to the topic of the thread, my question is how do you go about getting into the biz? Can you (or anyone else who is familiar with the field) give us some examples of the kind of music that you typically write?

Over the years I've written all kinds of different stuff (rock, metalcore, funk, jazz, etc.), so I'd be interested to see how I could apply what I know to a field like this. Thanks for all the answers that you've already posted, my curiosity is definitely piqued.

Post: #20

By the way Vince, I really enjoyed your playing, great chord selection. I'm getting major bossa nova, and (somehow) beatlesque vibes from certain parts of your composition.

Post: #21

It seems we have a lot of musicians on this forum already, maybe this could be a musician's thread, were people might like to ask advice from others here?

Since I got started on self improvement, and then found this community. I've realised a lot of things that would have helped me with music. I think all musicians need to be confident and understand social dynamics (bands and groups have a hierarchy, but I ignored facts like these in the past). I also take my practise and study of music far more seriously now. I see these things as neccessary skills that cannot be ignored if you want to succeed. Similiar to any other profesion, there is a certain basic level of understandstanding that every bricklayer, or plumber, or lawyer, or doctor has to know.

I'm also now opposed to having a 'democratic' run band. I now think the best bands have a definite leader, otherwise nothing gets done. Now that I know this, I've started my own band where I am in charge, everyone in the band is very talented (Grade 8 musicians) but nearly ten years younger than me. They are also sort of new to playing jazz in a small group, so I've already written out 12 basic jazz arrangements for the band. I play piano and have been studying jazz for the past 6 years, or so but my first instrument is drums so I will be playing that in the band.

As for songwriting, I still feel like I am busy learning the harmony that makes up the songs I like, as well as developing my playing and technique. I'm not that tempted to write much other than a blues, because I am still memorising the chord progressions that make up different songs.

Post: #22

(07-11-2015 10:40 AM)RedPillUK Wrote:  It seems we have a lot of musicians on this forum already, maybe this could be a musician's thread, were people might like to ask advice from others here?

Since I got started on self improvement, and then found this community. I've realised a lot of things that would have helped me with music. I think all musicians need to be confident and understand social dynamics (bands and groups have a hierarchy, but I ignored facts like these in the past). I also take my practise and study of music far more seriously now. I see these things as neccessary skills that cannot be ignored if you want to succeed. Similiar to any other profesion, there is a certain basic level of understandstanding that every bricklayer, or plumber, or lawyer, or doctor has to know.

I'm also now opposed to having a 'democratic' run band. I now think the best bands have a definite leader, otherwise nothing gets done. Now that I know this, I've started my own band where I am in charge, everyone in the band is very talented (Grade 8 musicians) but nearly ten years younger than me. They are also sort of new to playing jazz in a small group, so I've already written out 12 basic jazz arrangements for the band. I play piano and have been studying jazz for the past 6 years, or so but my first instrument is drums so I will be playing that in the band.

As for songwriting, I still feel like I am busy learning the harmony that makes up the songs I like, as well as developing my playing and technique. I'm not that tempted to write much other than a blues, because I am still memorising the chord progressions that make up different songs.

This is a great thread. I write my own songs, never record them though. I tend to write funny (opinions may vary) songs, outlaw country (thanks Archer) or blues stuff. I've never learned to sin, as when I was young I went to Cathedral type schools where everyone was in choirs, so it was an act of rebellion to sing badly not to get in one. It was a badge of pride to be one of the few to be exempt from choir duty.

Trouble is, now that I want to start performing and trying to turn this into a fun sideline, I have no idea how to train myself to sing. I am reasonably musical - I've taught myself piano to past grade 8/diploma level following various courses, and have got back into the guitar again recently. I can hit all the notes across about an octave and a half, and was just wondering whether anyone knew any good ways of developing the ability to sing, if fundamentally you can hit notes.

Post: #23

(07-11-2015 09:19 AM)BlueOcean Wrote:  If you want to pull, it's important that you perform the song. Women love men with musical talents and it's important that you showcase that. If you write songs
for another guy, you're not going to get the recognition or perks.

You can make a solid career of songwriting, sure, but if you want the adulation, you need to perform your material.

While you may be correct, who said anything about pulling or getting adulation? I think there are threads on doing that through music, but starting a career as a musician for the sole reason to pull ass sounds like a helluva lot of work to me. And to make great money at it is a long shot. This is a thread with a making money tag for a reason.

Selling songs can be a sold moneymaker and my assumption, which could be wrong, is that the barrier to entry is lower, and you don't have to deal with the downsides of fame.

That isn't to say what you're talking about can't be done. I know guys who do very well with that just as a local star.

But no need to shoot down the basis of this thread. As a writer I'd be more than happy with some artist out there singing something I wrote and I don't have some urge to be famous. I've also seen other songwriters work their way into fame by selling their songs to others and making connections as a means if coming in the backdoor that way, so that would be a possibility if you had the looks and talent.

The way I look at it is I don't have great singing skills and I can't play an instrument. Can I learn these things? Sure.

But if I ever did get serious, the learning curve to write great songs would be WAY shorter for me (already a professional writer) than mastering and besting performers at singing and playing when they've been at it their entire lives.

I'm sure it's been done, but you'd have quite a road ahead.

I'm Here.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #24

thebassist. I enjoy manipulating sound, hope you don't mind but I took your video and colored up the sound a bit ( a lot actually ). PM me if you want me to take it down, no problem. Nice technique there, ambience is good for that kind of thing.






To get this kind of sound, lots of delay, compression ( especially for tapping and hammering, a compressor is a must, it's nice to have an eveness of velocity ) reverb, etc. So, a guitar multi-effects unit would be good.

Post: #25

(07-11-2015 11:06 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  The way I look at it is I don't have great singing skills and I can't play an instrument. Can I learn these things? Sure.

But if I ever did get serious, the learning curve to write great songs would be WAY shorter for me (already a professional writer) than mastering and besting performers at singing and playing when they've been at it their entire lives.

I don't know how to address your question about how to make money in the music business. It seems 'bands' have accepted that a CD is a loss leader ( no one makes money from cd sales it seems ) for shows. At shows bands can sell t-shirts etc, "merch"....this is how they make a few bucks.

If I were you I'd look at this like looking for a job, so, find a company, see what the company wants, and design your C.V. to fit into that company. The company in this case could be an act that is looking for songs, like Katy Perry etc. Look up Dianne Warren, she's a major songwriter http://www.realsongs.com/.

This article was an eye-opener for me also, http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/0...a-hit-song

I looked up Rhianna Diamonds on wiki, check out the team behind her,
Personnel

Songwriting – Sia Furler, Benjamin Levin, Mikkel S. Eriksen, Tor Erik Hermansen
Production – Benny Blanco, StarGate
Recording – Mikkel S. Eriksen, Miles Walker
Recording assistant – Andrew "Muffman" Luftman
Vocal Production – Kuk Harrell
Vocal Recording – Kuk Harrell, Marcos Tovar
Assistant Engineering – Blake Mares, Robert Cohen
Mixing – Phil Tan
Mixing assistant – Daniela Rivera
Instrumentation – Benjamin Levin, Mikkel S. Eriksen, Tor Erik Hermansen

I would try to contact these songwriters for more information.

Again, this article and the comments really woke me up...http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/07/05/137530847/how-much-does-it-cost-to-make-a-hit-song