Post: #1

Hi guys,

I recently started reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and following from that, I have started to attempt and study and express my emotions more honestly and try not to put on a false pretense.

As a part of that, I have written some nasty thoughts and insults to a girl I was once in love with. Things that have been on my mind for a long time and never said. It was very freeing, even if it had nothing to do with holding frame, obviously.

I telephoned with her afterward, about a picture I took of her that I wanted to use. It was about a contract and she said that to her, her picture rights were important and that that was why she wanted to talk with me. Yeah, right, bullshit.

Anyway, as we talked, she kept saying that I need (anger) therapy and eventually, that the one kiss we had was something disgusting I imposed on her. Further, I asked her to suck my dick during the call and asked whether she wanted to fuck. Pretty asshole-ish. No idea whether she responded to it, she kept up a solid frame of "you are so unprofessional, so embarassing, so disgusting, I am so sweet, reasonable and calm." It was unreal how unaffected she seemed despite everything I was throwing at her.

I told her that I do not give a fuck and that I say whatever I want and do whatever I want. I felt that I was holding back my honest anger about the things she was saying, though. I just kept up a mask of laughing her shit off, but afterwards I realized that that is not what I had wanted to say, which would have been a simple: Fuck you.

All in all, it was pretty fun.

Nonetheless, as she said that thing about finding me disgusting, she somehow broke through some defense of mine. Secretly, I really believe that I am disgusting. That me asking a girl for sex must be horrible for her and I am akin to a piece of shit that dares to talk to a princess that knows "manners" and is part of some kind of elite that I can never hope belonging to, because I am intrinsically bad and disgusting. That I have no right (whatever that means) of imposing my sexuality on the fair sex, that I have to accept my place among the unworthy and ugly scum of this world.

I know, it is overly dramatic. But being alone with those thoughts drives me crazy. Hope you do not mind if I share. Has any of you guys had experience with toxic shame and some experience dealing with this?

In hindsight, I think that the things she said to me are exactly the kind of things I was most afraid of hearing. These things are quite possibly a big reason for why I hesitate to start learning game. I somehow managed to convince myself that that is not true, but who am I lying to. There must be some smart way of dealing with these emotions and thoughts.

Best,
Tom

Edit: I believe this belongs into the Newbie forum. Feel free to transfer.

Post: #2

You sounds like you need real help. Have you ever talked to a professional?

Honestly, I think that would be the best first step.

Post: #3

I forcibly spent five years of my life in government funded therapy homes with weekly therapy sessions, with being forced to talk about my problems with people that just wanted me to be a nice little boy. My feelings regarding seeing a professional are mixed, to say the least.

Am considering it. But even so, I can not afford it this year.

Was hoping for some good literature or actionable advice till then.

Post: #4

As hard as it sounds you need to forgive and let go of the past. It sounds like you have a lot of issues that need dealing with and the only place you can deal with them is in the now. Get a hobby, exercise everyday even if it's just a walk. Eat good healthy food and count your blessings. You found your way here so you are already at an advantage to most guys. Use this site and focus on building the life you want. Be the hero of your own movie and for goodness sake gat over bitches from your past.

Post: #5

" I just kept up a mask of laughing her shit off, but afterwards I realized that that is not what I had wanted to say, which would have been a simple: Fuck you".

Should have been nothing. If it's over, don't even make the call.

"That I have no right (whatever that means) of imposing my sexuality on the fair sex, that I have to accept my place among the unworthy and ugly scum of this world.

I know, it is overly dramatic. But being alone with those thoughts drives me crazy. Hope you do not mind if I share. Has any of you guys had experience with toxic shame and some experience dealing with this?"

Many have. You improve yourself till you're no longer "the unworthy ugly scum of the world" and people are looking up to you instead of down on you. And if you don't put in the work, you didn't deserve it anyway. Step 1 - start hitting the gym or doing something else positive with yourself. This will improve your mood too.

Post: #6

(09-11-2015 08:36 PM)TomArrow Wrote:  I forcibly spent five years of my life in government funded therapy homes with weekly therapy sessions, with being forced to talk about my problems with people that just wanted me to be a nice little boy. My feelings regarding seeing a professional are mixed, to say the least.

Am considering it. But even so, I can not afford it this year.

Was hoping for some good literature or actionable advice till then.

Don't get caught and you won't be forced to do unpleasant shit against your will. This includes work - she called you "unprofessional" - this implies she is a co worker. Don't shit where you eat. Life gets worse when you're unemployed.

Seriously, if you don't have your shit together enough to not get caught, you're better off following the rules.

Post: #7

(09-11-2015 08:52 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  Many have. You improve yourself till you're no longer "the unworthy ugly scum of the world" and people are looking up to you instead of down on you. And if you don't put in the work, you didn't deserve it anyway. Step 1 - start hitting the gym or doing something else positive with yourself. This will improve your mood too.

I like your attitude, DarkTriad. There is just one question looming in my mind. I read The Game and I saw Neill Strauss on TV. Even after years of game and success, he still had these horrible episodes. Or Mystery even.

I do not want to end up like that. It just seems ineffectual and inflexible. I do not wish to work around those devastating feelings. I wish to eliminate them, because they make me stupidly weak.

Will improving myself get me to that place? Did you do that?

Post: #8

(09-11-2015 08:47 PM)Loki Bachus Wrote:  As hard as it sounds you need to forgive and let go of the past. It sounds like you have a lot of issues that need dealing with and the only place you can deal with them is in the now. Get a hobby, exercise everyday even if it's just a walk. Eat good healthy food and count your blessings. You found your way here so you are already at an advantage to most guys. Use this site and focus on building the life you want. Be the hero of your own movie and for goodness sake gat over bitches from your past.

It does sound hard, the forgiving part. And somehow too simple. I wrote my feelings to a lot of people today. Most will be offended. But for the first time in years, I do not feel … fake. Ugly and problem-ridden, yes, but not fake.

The rest sounds good. Doing some of it already. Took a long walk along the river recently and jumped in a few times. Strutted alone through the forest. Liked it.

Post: #9

gettinbetter.com

read that and save your money

Post: #10

You may want to talk to friends or family about your troubles before going to a shrink. You don't want to end up taking happy pills.

Post: #11

(09-11-2015 10:04 PM)offthereservation Wrote:  gettinbetter.com

read that and save your money

Wow, that website looks corny as hell. And written by a bitch. I am not sure this is what I need.

Post: #12

(09-11-2015 09:38 PM)TomArrow Wrote:  

(09-11-2015 08:52 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  Many have. You improve yourself till you're no longer "the unworthy ugly scum of the world" and people are looking up to you instead of down on you. And if you don't put in the work, you didn't deserve it anyway. Step 1 - start hitting the gym or doing something else positive with yourself. This will improve your mood too.

I like your attitude, DarkTriad. There is just one question looming in my mind. I read The Game and I saw Neill Strauss on TV. Even after years of game and success, he still had these horrible episodes. Or Mystery even.

I do not want to end up like that. It just seems ineffectual and inflexible. I do not wish to work around those devastating feelings. I wish to eliminate them, because they make me stupidly weak.

Will improving myself get me to that place? Did you do that?

I've had many years of an amazing life...and still had some shitty, shitty days. Sometimes weeks or months. You've got to be able to fight through them because nobody lives free from adversity. Give yourself better tools, and you'll feel it less often and less severely. Some people have actual chemical imbalances that make the bad times worse. Sometimes they need medication to balance things out. This is OK. Doesn't matter so much how you climb as long as you make it to the top.

Post: #13

(09-11-2015 10:06 PM)Hygiene Wrote:  You may want to talk to friends or family about your troubles before going to a shrink. You don't want to end up taking happy pills.

Family is kinda the source of my troubles. Friends, well, there are none I can speak of. Most of the friends I had were just weaklings I clang to because I wanted to feel good about myself.

That is more or less why I reach out here. Figure there might be somebody around who will understand. Frankly, I just wish there was someone I can trust who would tell me that it is okay to have these emotions. That I am not some kind of weird anomaly that just has nothing in common with anybody.

Post: #14

(09-11-2015 10:07 PM)TomArrow Wrote:  

(09-11-2015 10:04 PM)offthereservation Wrote:  gettinbetter.com

read that and save your money

Wow, that website looks corny as hell. And written by a bitch. I am not sure this is what I need.

read it first then decide

Post: #15

(09-11-2015 10:09 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  I've had many years of an amazing life...and still had some shitty, shitty days. Sometimes weeks or months. You've got to be able to fight through them because nobody lives free from adversity. Give yourself better tools, and you'll feel it less often and less severely. Some people have actual chemical imbalances that make the bad times worse. Sometimes they need medication to balance things out. This is OK. Doesn't matter so much how you climb as long as you make it to the top.

You know, I have this voice in my head telling me that I should be able to fix myself. To not have shitty days. To somehow, do it all right. Be, I don't know, spiritually worthy and always fulfilled or whatever. I fail to allow myself to have those shitty days. The voice tells me that normal, good people just work and have no abnormal emotions that weirdly stick out. And there are people who look like they do work that way; they have those smug happy smiles on their face. Yet I can't help but feel that they are just arrogant pretenders and gurus, trying to impress me with their Jesus-like appearance.

Post: #16

(09-11-2015 10:17 PM)offthereservation Wrote:  

(09-11-2015 10:07 PM)TomArrow Wrote:  

(09-11-2015 10:04 PM)offthereservation Wrote:  gettinbetter.com

read that and save your money

Wow, that website looks corny as hell. And written by a bitch. I am not sure this is what I need.

read it first then decide

Well, at least tell me what it did for you so that I get an idea whether it is what I am looking for. The titles seem to be related to Borderline PD. I met a borderline person once although I felt comfortable around him, it is not who I am.

Post: #17

Do you have any hobbies? Is there a skill you want to learn?
Go to a bar nearby, make some new friends. Just ask if you can sit with a group, ask everyone their names, tell them yours, drink and have fun.
Start a routine of some sort.
I always found that I would get in a funk when I wasn't busy with something, so then I would start on a project, anything, and that would lead me to new skills I needed to finish it. Most of the projects involved fixing stuff I bought at yard sales. Broken table would lead me to woodworking skills, broken cali trimmer led me to welding (and building a homemade arc welder), small engine repair, and painting.

I never fully understood what "Idle hands are the devils plaything" when I was a kid, until later in life when not being busy I would start drinking by myself and self-commiserating about stupid shit.

Post: #18

(09-12-2015 02:30 AM)spokepoker Wrote:  Do you have any hobbies? Is there a skill you want to learn?
Go to a bar nearby, make some new friends. Just ask if you can sit with a group, ask everyone their names, tell them yours, drink and have fun.
Start a routine of some sort.
I always found that I would get in a funk when I wasn't busy with something, so then I would start on a project, anything, and that would lead me to new skills I needed to finish it. Most of the projects involved fixing stuff I bought at yard sales. Broken table would lead me to woodworking skills, broken cali trimmer led me to welding (and building a homemade arc welder), small engine repair, and painting.

I never fully understood what "Idle hands are the devils plaything" when I was a kid, until later in life when not being busy I would start drinking by myself and self-commiserating about stupid shit.

That is very true, i can relate to that. Nonetheless, I think it is something of a distraction from confronting stuff. At least when there is stuff to confront. Whatever that means.

Post: #19

Quote:You know, I have this voice in my head telling me that I should be able to fix myself. To not have shitty days. To somehow, do it all right. Be, I don't know, spiritually worthy and always fulfilled or whatever. I fail to allow myself to have those shitty days. The voice tells me that normal, good people just work and have no abnormal emotions that weirdly stick out.

You're dealing with self-judgement and resistance to what is. That's normal. I would highly recommend you read The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. There are excerpts on YouTube.

Try observing those thoughts and emotions without identifying with them or judging them and practice allowing them to be as you watch them. Surrender 100% to what is, as part of this moment, and then see what happens.

Post: #20

(09-12-2015 08:09 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  You're dealing with self-judgement and resistance to what is. That's normal. I would highly recommend you read The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. There are excerpts on YouTube.

Try observing those thoughts and emotions without identifying with them or judging them and practice allowing them to be as you watch them. Surrender 100% to what is, as part of this moment, and then see what happens.

Thanks, I will look into that book.

Post: #21

(09-11-2015 09:44 PM)TomArrow Wrote:  It does sound hard, the forgiving part. And somehow too simple.

(09-12-2015 07:07 AM)TomArrow Wrote:  That is very true, i can relate to that. Nonetheless, I think it is something of a distraction from confronting stuff.

Tom,

The sentences I bolded above are a result of a fundamental misunderstanding -- one that you share with many, perhaps most, people that find themselves in your situation. Please hear me out, this is important.

The misunderstanding comes from the idea that psychological problems have deep, hidden roots. Therefore, to solve them you have to dig deeply to uncover these roots. Any solution that does not involve some sort of deep introspection, some rummaging in the attic of your soul, so to speak, is therefore necessarily "too simple". And anyone who tells you to look outside, to change -- mechanically, as it were -- how you act, is providing a mere "distraction" from "confronting" the deep roots of your psychological problems.

This is a very natural and intuitively appealing idea, and it explains the enormous worldwide influence of Freudian psychoanalysis, and related schools of thought. Interestingly, it is also completely false.

I'm going to permit myself to quote in full an older post of mine from Dusty's superb, and extremely important, REBT thread -- a thread I would strongly suggest you read from beginning to end, while also following along in Ellis' book:

(10-10-2013 10:40 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  The simple, deep and very counterintuitive insight that Ellis, Beck and other founders of CBT/REBT arrived at is alluded to in these two paragraphs of the review that you cite in your very first post on this thread:

Quote:REBT says that emotions do not arise as a result of repressed desires and needs, as Freud insisted, but directly from our thoughts, ideas, attitudes and beliefs. It is not the mysterious unconscious that matters most to our psychological health, but the most humdrum statements that we say to ourselves on a daily basis. Added up together, these represent our philosophy of life, one which can quite easily be altered if we are willing to change what we habitually say to ourselves.

Albert Ellis began his career working in the Freudian psychoanalytical tradition, but came to the conclusion that going deeper into a person's history and troubles did not actually have much positive benefit. His focus only on 'what worked' led him to the counterintuitive view that thoughts generate emotions, not the other way around. Reasoning your way out of emotional tangles seems doubtful, but Ellis's pioneering ideas, and four decades of cognitive psychology, have shown that it does indeed work.

There is nothing more appealing to the mind of the average intelligent person than the idea that to solve a psychological problem you have to dig deep (into the past, childhood, or the deep subconscious) and get to the roots of the problem. Only then you can understand it and maybe solve it.

This was the whole thrust of Freud's thinking, and the reason it conquered the world is that it has such immediate appeal, especially to intelligent and thoughtful people who are naturally drawn to this kind of self-reflection and rumination.

The genius of Ellis was that he (and a few others around the same time) made the extremely surprising realization that this doesn't work and is in fact exactly the wrong idea. The way to solve problems is not by digging deep into the past or the subconscious; that accomplishes nothing. The most important sources of our problems are plain to see; they are hidden in plain sight, as part of our most basic day-to-day habits of thought and action. The way to solve the problem is to change these habits, almost mechanically.

Here is another way to say this: you don't solve a psychological problem by understanding it or figuring out its deep or hidden causes. You just let it go. What this also means is that you can do it at any time. There is no time like the present.

Take the time to think about just how counterintuitive this very simple idea is. It's not that it's hard to understand -- it's easy to understand. But it's hard to keep it in one's mind because it is so natural for us to be drawn to the useless morass of digging for deep and mysterious causes. It feels like "going deep" is the right thing; the insights of REBT often feel too workaday, too superficial; they are easy to miss because they seem almost too simple. That's what took real courage for Ellis back in the day -- to go in a direction which made him seem almost like a simpleton.

Now, this is not all there is to REBT/CBT, of course. To actually use it you need to learn the techniques of how to go about this process of letting go of false and useless habits of thought. But it's all made possible by the single insight that day-to-day habits of thought and action are what matters above all else, and that the search for hidden causes is a waste of time.

I'll add something else to this. One of the worst things about the lives of people beset by psychological problems is not so much the specific nature of these problems, but the fact that they become preoccupied with these problems, and while they think they're trying to solve them, they're in fact sinking ever deeper into the morass of the self. And in this self-absorption they lose the world; they fail to see the simple, modest, everyday things around them that have nothing to do with their self and its psychology -- whatever it may be -- but are part of the objective reality outside the self which is what makes life truly interesting, enjoyable, and worthwhile.

The surprising truth is that the most effective solutions to psychological problems do not lie at a depth -- they are on the surface, hidden in plain sight, and look if anything too simple and obvious. And the most decisive step a man can take to improve his life and his mind is to stop looking inward, to stop being so interested in one's self and its emotions, fears and desires, and instead look outward and become interested in the infinitely various, profound, and entertaining world around him.

Again: please go through Dusty's REBT thread (ideally while reading Ellis' book), identify the irrational or self-defeating habits of thought that create your psychological problems, and work to remove them. And over time, let yourself become less and less interested in your self, your feelings, your difficulties, even your triumphs; and more and more interested in everything outside of that self. That is the way to a better, more enjoyable, and more inspired life; please take it.

Post: #22

To paraphrase Tolle, the desire to dig into the past is actually a trick of your mind. All you will discover is a bottomless pit. Whatever you need to know about your unconscious past, the challenges of the present will bring out.

Post: #23

I would recommend getting a life coach if you can afford it. They can be far more helpful than a therapist as they actively try to help you improve your life in practical, positive ways rather than "digging deep" into your self.

Post: #24

(09-12-2015 12:44 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(09-11-2015 09:44 PM)TomArrow Wrote:  It does sound hard, the forgiving part. And somehow too simple.

(09-12-2015 07:07 AM)TomArrow Wrote:  That is very true, i can relate to that. Nonetheless, I think it is something of a distraction from confronting stuff.

Tom,

The sentences I bolded above are a result of a fundamental misunderstanding -- one that you share with many, perhaps most, people that find themselves in your situation. Please hear me out, this is important.

The misunderstanding comes from the idea that psychological problems have deep, hidden roots. Therefore, to solve them you have to dig deeply to uncover these roots. Any solution that does not involve some sort of deep introspection, some rummaging in the attic of your soul, so to speak, is therefore necessarily "too simple". And anyone who tells you to look outside, to change -- mechanically, as it were -- how you act, is providing a mere "distraction" from "confronting" the deep roots of your psychological problems.

This is a very natural and intuitively appealing idea, and it explains the enormous worldwide influence of Freudian psychoanalysis, and related schools of thought. Interestingly, it is also completely false.

...

Again: please go through Dusty's REBT thread (ideally while reading Ellis' book), identify the irrational or self-defeating habits of thought that create your psychological problems, and work to remove them. And over time, let yourself become less and less interested in your self, your feelings, your difficulties, even your triumphs; and more and more interested in everything outside of that self. That is the way to a better, more enjoyable, and more inspired life; please take it.

Damn, Lizard. Thanks a hell for taking the time and writing this down for me. I appreciate it.

I am not sure whether to believe that. My life experience hints at a combination of both. One thing that often and even now helped me, for instance, is confronting people from my past. To demistify them. But it is something to be done in the present, very indeed.

Then again, somehow I ended up asking for advice here. I will take a deep look at the thread you suggested.

Post: #25

(09-12-2015 01:27 PM)Tytalus Wrote:  I would recommend getting a life coach if you can afford it. They can be far more helpful than a therapist as they actively try to help you improve your life in practical, positive ways rather than "digging deep" into your self.

Did you do that? How did it affect your life? How do I identify a good life coach for myself?