Post: #1

I've always been curios to know, the experience of others in relation to the proportion of eye contact they receive from passerbys (women). I am sure one's visibility factor would also be of interest to many others.

What proportion of women give you meaningful* eye contact when you are out and about during the day, for example as you stroll through the mall? (it would also be informative to include which country you live in)

In conjunction with the above, it would also be useful to know your physical characteristics (looks, ethnicity, height, build) or if you are unwillingly to disclose that, what you rate yourself out of ten at the very least?.

*close vicinity eye contact not thousand yard stares where it is tenous if they are looking at you. It should also be a IOI/checking you out kind of eye contact not startled/accidental eye contact.

To get the ball rolling I'd say 1-5 out of 100 give me eye contact when I am out and about in Australia.

Looks: 4/10
Height: 6'0
Build: Muscular
Ethnicity: east asian

Post: #2

If you're 6 foot and muscular I doubt you're a 4 man, obviously I haven't seen you, but I think you may be a little harsh on yourself.

Post: #3

I'd say around 1-5 in 100 sounds about right for me as well.

(12-09-2015 05:29 AM)Serenadium Wrote:  4/10
6'0
Muscular
east asian

Does that even make sense?

Post: #4

Really hope not race troll here.

There are many threads which deal with this already, use the search function.

And I see no reason to quantify the amount of eye contact you get. What difference does that make? If a girl looks at you, are you sure you will come talk to her? If so do you approach at least those 5/100 you mentioned? If no girl look at you, you dont approach at all?

If you are indeed 4/10, you need other things to worry about than eye contact.

Unless you really have a butter face that is irreparable, being 6' and muscular = automatically at least a 6 regardless of height. Eye contact is the least of your worry.

Post: #5

This has been one of the great mysteries of women to me. Throughout my entire adult life I get close to zero eye contact from women when I'm out and about. A lot of those years I was married so it wasn't something that I was too concerned about.

After getting divorced I started my journey as a newly single guy by going out as much as possible to malls, stores, beach boardwalks, anywhere I could think of, "on the hunt" looking for women who would pay attention from me. Every single time I went home empty handed, convinced I was completely invisible to women. After months of this frustration I conceded and had a photographer friend take some good photos of me and I went the online route since nothing was happening by trying to day game.

Fast forward nearly four years later and I've had many women tell me how handsome and attractive I am when seeing my profile photos and that I look exactly like my photos in person. Still, I'm virtually invisible when I go out in public. I'll never figure it out....

Post: #6

^ I've noticed that for the most part, American women under say age 40 inhabit a bubble when they go out to someplace that's not specifically "geared" towards meeting new people. They're running on autopilot and for the most part oblivious to the people around them. To get direct eye contact IOIs from many random woman out and about during the day you probably have to _really_ stand out.

There's this one heavily tattooed guy who comes into the coffee shop I frequent who's about 6'6" and looks like a bodybuilder. I watch the reaction of some of the SWPL hoes who hang out there and they eat it up, staring at him for ten seconds at a stretch and glancing at their friends.

But that's about it. 95% of other guys, even conventionally attractive guys who probably do well but just don't stand out as much, are pretty much ignored. But often their whole demeanor changes the moment you attempt to engage with them and you'll quickly be able to judge their interest, which is why cold approaching is important.

You know how they say some Muslim women take the veil by choice? I think that there are many American women who wish there were some kind of American judeo-christian veil they could wear out in public.

I've come to the conclusion that that's what many young women who wear hoodies, iPod earbuds, and huge sunglasses in some combination when they're out during the day are trying to do - they're attempting to construct a niqab out of household items.

Post: #7

this "niqab out of iPod and such" is so out there, I'm srsly considering repping you.

@OP
it's a matter of encouragement. if you encourage, you can get much more regardless of your ethnical background and superficial stat you assign to yourself.
for me it's pointless as I don't have a hard on on eye contact not from random woman out there. it's a reserved version of masturbation. I gotta be honest I have an eye contact book and many more e-material on the subject. it was cool for some time. it just got NEXT'd in time

Post: #8

(12-09-2015 02:01 PM)XPQ22 Wrote:  But often their whole demeanor changes the moment you attempt to engage with them and you'll quickly be able to judge their interest, which is why cold approaching is important.

I completely agree with that. Once I came to terms with the fact that the only way I was going to get with any women was that I needed to approach them things got markedly better for me. Before I discovered Roosh's books and this forum, I read a lot of blue pill dating books found in the "Relationships" section of Barnes and Noble and every. damn. one. of them always starts out with something like "So you're out at a bar/the grocery store/the mall/the street/ and you make eye contact with a woman...." AGGGHHH NOO! From that point on my frustration level continued to build and I was left to believe that something was horribly wrong with me since this most "basic" part of meeting women never happened to me.

Instead I look at eye contact as like winning a raffle. It's not something that happens on any kind of a regular basis and definitely it's not something you should count on. Instead enjoy it and capitalize on it when it does occasionally happen.

Post: #9

I still don't know what a visual IOI is to this day. Some will say that something as little as a glance longer than 2 seconds is a girl's restrained of way of saying she likes what she sees. But then I would think she's looking around randomly like any human would.

Post: #10

I get eye contact a lot. I can't put a number on it, and it wouldn't be fair because of my current location, but it happens most anywhere.

This is not because I'm some super great-looking guy. I'm not bad, but I think it has a lot more to do with how I enter and engage with a room. My energy. My aura. I walk into a place and unless I'm low energy or low mood at that moment (happens to me like anyone), I'm switched on and ALIVE.

My chin is up and my eyes are open. Strong posture. Warm smile on the face, generally. Speak loud and clear. I engage with the first person who looks at me. I talk to people, men or women. I flirt. I look directly at people that come in my vicinity, whether they make eye contact with me or not. I either start joking and teasing or somehow assert myself in another way. Greet and shake hands with any guys I know, even staff. It's not entirely uncommon for me to exchange raised eyebrows and a smile even with a girl busy singing on the stage.

It's hard not to notice when someone like that walks in.

And when you're switched on like that, you get a lot of eye contact from women - not always attraction-based but often enough. Some of the responses I get in those moments are pretty powerful.

Let me give an example. One time I was standing in this bar in Northern California, and I was really in my switched on space, and I'd just engaged these two okay girls at the bar and was bantering with them and they were eating it up. I'd been on a roll and two of my buddies were sitting on the couch somewhere behind me just grinning at the display.

Suddenly this sexily-dressed, slightly older woman walks down the bar behind them, swinging her hips and she was just oozing sexuality. I mean, you couldn't help but notice her either.

She seemed to catch on to my vibe immediately and the way I was commanding attention. I saw her looking and started following her approach with my eyes, and then I just stopped mid-sentence and stopped talking to the other girls completely. No fucks given. Turned my head to the side to meet her eyes. Just held it like that as she walked by me - completely locked in.

Then as she got near, the eye contact was intense at this point and I was making it so obvious in front of everyone already, so I sort of held up my hands in this little hug invitation with a smirk on my face, and she leans in and gives me this deep and enthusiastic, prolonged hug, pressing her titties against my chest.

We exchanged a little "how are you doing tonight," and maybe a "you're hot" - I can't really remember. And then as she walked on, I turned, and started talking again like nothing happened, and the two girls were just staring at me and exchanging glances, mouths agape, and one says, "Wait, do you know her?!"

"No," I said, laughing a little.

"That was a-a-a-awesome," she says.

I found out a little later the woman was engaged and her fiance was not far coming in the door behind her either...

I've got pretty expressive eyes and I know how to use them, and I think that helps, but at the time, I was not looking very good - probably the worst shape of my life. Unshaven. Smelling like booze and cigars. Wearing a fucking fedora (okay, that part doesn't really matter haha).

To elaborate on this effect, for a while I expiremented with just catching women's eyes as they walked by, reaching out and grabbing their hand, and saying, "I do hugs." Just as my opener. haha

And note how I worded that - I was "catching" women's eyes. Not waiting for them to find mine. You have to be quick about it because you don't want to be that guy just walking in and leering at all the females and not looking away, but if women aren't noticing you, you force your way into their attention by noticing them.

Often in these moments you get random women opening you up, in one way or another, if it's a bar environment.

What's my point?

I don't think just being a good-looking guy will necessarily get this kind of reaction. Sure, I've watched women get drooly-eyed over the Adonis model type, but if he doesn't have that energy and that aura and that inviting, expressive nature, he's not going to draw them in like that and get a breathless impromptu hug. Women may even be intimidated to actually meet his eyes for a moment if he doesn't radiate personality.

And let's forget about the Adonis guy and just think about a guy who is a couple points more attractive to me. As an extreme example, if he's just another good-looking guy standing there holding his beer with his hand in his pocket and listening to other people talk with his dull voice and dull personality and slumped shoulders, is this going to happen to him?

No. Of course not. I admit I've had my share of nights being that guy too and people could have given two shits about me.

But when everything about you engages the room, and when you're in that switched on mood and reactive enough to capitalize on whatever attention flows your way and invite it in and blow more life into it, well, that's another story. You don't even have to be drawing attention to yourself, either; the body language and attitude is often enough to just increase instances of mere eye contact.

So, I think to get noticed enough for lots of eye contact, you better be a noticeable person, and that depends on a lot more than your aesthetics. Come alive and so do the people around you.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #11

(12-09-2015 06:19 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Really hope not race troll here.

There are many threads which deal with this already, use the search function.

And I see no reason to quantify the amount of eye contact you get. What difference does that make? If a girl looks at you, are you sure you will come talk to her? If so do you approach at least those 5/100 you mentioned? If no girl look at you, you dont approach at all?

If you are indeed 4/10, you need other things to worry about than eye contact.

Unless you really have a butter face that is irreparable, being 6' and muscular = automatically at least a 6 regardless of height. Eye contact is the least of your worry.

Sorry I should have clarified. I meant lookswise facially.

Further just because my face is a 4/10, I dont sit around and cry about it and it certainly doesnt hold be back.

Post: #12

I agree with the guys saying muscles and height bring the rating up for a guy, but given that OP separated those two variables out from "looks," it seemed pretty obvious to me that he was just using a 4 to describe his grill.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #13

(12-09-2015 11:12 PM)civpro Wrote:  I still don't know what a visual IOI is to this day. Some will say that something as little as a glance longer than 2 seconds is a girl's restrained of way of saying she likes what she sees. But then I would think she's looking around randomly like any human would.

I've mentioned this to you before. You need to work on your inner game.

Post: #14

(12-10-2015 08:03 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

(12-09-2015 11:12 PM)civpro Wrote:  I still don't know what a visual IOI is to this day. Some will say that something as little as a glance longer than 2 seconds is a girl's restrained of way of saying she likes what she sees. But then I would think she's looking around randomly like any human would.

I've mentioned this to you before. You need to work on your inner game.

Do I know you?

Post: #15

Really, whats the difference between an IOI and just a casual look? An IOI could be simply what you decide that it is. While it might matter more to someone who does game for a living, saying to yourself "oh she's just looking around, I'm not going to approach" doesn't really help most guys.

If interpreting every look as an IOI helps dudes get over some approach anxiety and increases their experience, then what's the harm?

I think that once you've connected enough "IOIs" with enough approach responses, you'll internalize the difference and nuance of what makes something an IOI or an accidental glance.

That's what I kind of saw it as. Cobra, please correct me here if I'm off base.

Post: #16

(12-10-2015 01:49 PM)h3ltrsk3ltr Wrote:  Really, whats the difference between an IOI and just a casual look? An IOI could be simply what you decide that it is.

IOIs:

Sustained eye contact
Double take eye contact, where she looks at you, looks down, and then looks again as she passes
Moving to stand near you even if she’s not looking at you
Talking loudly to draw attention to herself
Flushed skin
Dilated pupils
Light, non-sexual touches, such as on the arm of the elbow
Her feet facing towards yours in a standing conversation
If seated, and her legs are crossed, her knees pointing towards you
Her paying more attention to what you have to say than anyone else in the group
Her initiating conversation with you, or asking questions

Post: #17

delete

Post: #18

Good link, BDawg, I guess I was asking more existentially than anything else but I would say that some of these are pretty common just for women in general...

Moving to stand near you even if she’s not looking at you - C'mon

Talking loudly to draw attention to herself - Every bitch does this! (I actually prefer chasing the ones who don't do this)

Flushed skin/Dilated pupils -Yeah this is cool if she's not drunk but if I'm getting this response, I really should already know she's into me

Light, non-sexual touches, such as on the arm of the elbow - Great IOI

Her feet facing towards yours in a standing conversation - Sure. Does she have a pulse? Cuz that's an IOI

If seated, and her legs are crossed, her knees pointing towards you - If she has legs, that's an IOI

Her paying more attention to what you have to say than anyone else in the group - Great IOI

Her initiating conversation with you, or asking questions - My personal preferred metric for gauging interest

Post: #19

(12-10-2015 01:49 PM)h3ltrsk3ltr Wrote:  Really, whats the difference between an IOI and just a casual look? An IOI could be simply what you decide that it is. While it might matter more to someone who does game for a living, saying to yourself "oh she's just looking around, I'm not going to approach" doesn't really help most guys.

If interpreting every look as an IOI helps dudes get over some approach anxiety and increases their experience, then what's the harm?

I think that once you've connected enough "IOIs" with enough approach responses, you'll internalize the difference and nuance of what makes something an IOI or an accidental glance.

That's what I kind of saw it as. Cobra, please correct me here if I'm off base.

H3ltrsk3ltr is right.

There are 2 types of guys on the forum:
-Those confident in themselves so they write about how IOIs help them know how girls react to their confidence.
-Those not too confident that look "outside" of themselves to figure out and over think every look a girl gives.

Girls may react the same to both guys but the latter don't even have the confidence in the first place to know how girls react to it. They're just trying to find gold on a beach.

(12-10-2015 09:20 AM)civpro Wrote:  

(12-10-2015 08:03 AM)Cobra Wrote:  I've mentioned this to you before. You need to work on your inner game.

Do I know you?

Of course you do. I take it you're an Indian man and you believe race is a huge handicap for you. I don't want to turn this into a race thread at all. However, when I know that's the source of your negativity, and most of your posts reflect it, it affects other guys, especially minorities on the forum. Those guys are in need of better guidance. For you specifically, it's not a matter of working out, dressing better or making more money if you think every white girl already hates you in the first place management . These girls are giving you IOIs every day. Their biases hold them back. It's up to you to approach them with confidence. You have to work harder than other guys they like; but you think it's impossible rather than harder. That can only be mitigated and eventually fixed from believing in yourself and developing yourself. Fuck that race noise in your head.

Civpro, you are always very negative when it comes to inner game. The reason you know me is we have had this debate before at /thread-42049...pid871802.

Since then I have called this out on other threads as well. the issue is that you take this negativity and bring it to threads like this little IOI thread.

I think you can do better but you seem to hate your race and when someone says you shouldn't, you start hating on them too. Therapy is actually a good solution to this. I'm not fucking with you. Even I have tried it and it has been very positive.

If you can't fix this, maybe the forum is not a place for you because your negativity has spread all the way through to a thread about IOIs.

Post: #20

(12-10-2015 08:47 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

(12-10-2015 09:20 AM)civpro Wrote:  

(12-10-2015 08:03 AM)Cobra Wrote:  I've mentioned this to you before. You need to work on your inner game.

Do I know you?

Of course you do. I take it you're an Indian man and you believe race is a huge handicap for you. I don't want to turn this into a race thread at all. However, when I know that's the source of your negativity, and most of your posts reflect it, it affects other guys, especially minorities on the forum. Those guys are in need of better guidance. For you specifically, it's not a matter of working out, dressing better or making more money if you think every white girl already hates you in the first place management . These girls are giving you IOIs every day. Their biases hold them back. It's up to you to approach them with confidence. You have to work harder than other guys they like; but you think it's impossible rather than harder. That can only be mitigated and eventually fixed from believing in yourself and developing yourself. Fuck that race noise in your head.

Civpro, you are always very negative when it comes to inner game. The reason you know me is we have had this debate before at /thread-42049...pid871802.

Since then I have called this out on other threads as well. the issue is that you take this negativity and bring it to threads like this little IOI thread.

I think you can do better but you seem to hate your race and when someone says you shouldn't, you start hating on them too. Therapy is actually a good solution to this. I'm not fucking with you. Even I have tried it and it has been very positive.

If you can't fix this, maybe the forum is not a place for you because your negativity has spread all the way through to a thread about IOIs.

Ummmm...... I have no clue where you're coming from or why you have such a huge hard on for me. That you view my comment in this thread as 'negativity' and are so concerned as to have to repeat that word four whole times in a lengthy post purporting to psychoanalyze a stranger on the internet shows that you're really just talking to yourself and working out your own gnawing doubts and issues relating to the game. Good luck with that.

Post: #21

(12-10-2015 02:21 PM)h3ltrsk3ltr Wrote:  Good link, BDawg, I guess I was asking more existentially than anything else but I would say that some of these are pretty common just for women in general...

Well, it's the Newbie Forum, so a foundation is important.

Anyway, I forgot to address user Serenadium's question.

From my experience, when well dressed and pacing deliberately forward in Manhattan, I get the attention of attractive women. Exact percentages from self reporting would be a distortion of a guess. In other words, I couldn't judge unless a wing was theoretically witnessing us.

Inner game teaches one that IOIs are best to determine whether your time is being wasted. Relying on nonverbals only will not save you from being disqualified from something you say or do therafter.

Some are adept at spotting body language and others clueless.

But, remember what Tony Montana said.

Post: #22

That's a good point about the wingman analysis of IOIs. Heavy pointed this out to me once, so did Octavian.

I guess after I actually had an experienced wingman give me some feedback I got a new found understanding for IOI significance

Post: #23

(12-10-2015 09:35 PM)civpro Wrote:  

(12-10-2015 08:47 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

(12-10-2015 09:20 AM)civpro Wrote:  

(12-10-2015 08:03 AM)Cobra Wrote:  I've mentioned this to you before. You need to work on your inner game.

Do I know you?

Of course you do. I take it you're an Indian man and you believe race is a huge handicap for you. I don't want to turn this into a race thread at all. However, when I know that's the source of your negativity, and most of your posts reflect it, it affects other guys, especially minorities on the forum. Those guys are in need of better guidance. For you specifically, it's not a matter of working out, dressing better or making more money if you think every white girl already hates you in the first place management . These girls are giving you IOIs every day. Their biases hold them back. It's up to you to approach them with confidence. You have to work harder than other guys they like; but you think it's impossible rather than harder. That can only be mitigated and eventually fixed from believing in yourself and developing yourself. Fuck that race noise in your head.

Civpro, you are always very negative when it comes to inner game. The reason you know me is we have had this debate before at /thread-42049...pid871802.

Since then I have called this out on other threads as well. the issue is that you take this negativity and bring it to threads like this little IOI thread.

I think you can do better but you seem to hate your race and when someone says you shouldn't, you start hating on them too. Therapy is actually a good solution to this. I'm not fucking with you. Even I have tried it and it has been very positive.

If you can't fix this, maybe the forum is not a place for you because your negativity has spread all the way through to a thread about IOIs.

Ummmm...... I have no clue where you're coming from or why you have such a huge hard on for me. That you view my comment in this thread as 'negativity' and are so concerned as to have to repeat that word four whole times in a lengthy post purporting to psychoanalyze a stranger on the internet shows that you're really just talking to yourself and working out your own gnawing doubts and issues relating to the game. Good luck with that.

I think you're taking his post the wrong way. I think he's offering great constructive criticism because he has seen/dealt with an issue you may be facing, and cares enough to try to share the best ways to overcome it. His post doesn't seem to be coming from a bad place.

Post: #24

(12-10-2015 09:35 PM)civpro Wrote:  "Ummmm......"

Post: #25

When in doubt, ask her out. Eventually, as you get to know her, you can ask her if her glance was an IOI or just incidental eye contact.