Post: #1

What techniques do you guys use to get rid of anxiety or depression without meds? I was prescribed Cymbalta at 30mg, but I don't wanna take that shit. What techniques can you guys recommend? Thanks.

Post: #2

One time in my mid-20's I broke up with a GF and it totally destroyed me. I lost like 30 lbs and was a total wreck. I went to my doc and asked for Paxil, and it completely ruined me even further. It made me not be able to ejaculate. I could have sex for hours and not be able to get off. That was a horrible experience, and it took months to reverse after I quit the meds. I would rather cry everyday like a baby, but still be able to have sex. No depression is worth wrecking the bodily functions designed to help you feel joy. Trash the meds immediately.

Here is my short list;

Get off the meds, with the support of your doctor and a psychologist or counselor to talk to as well. You need to be working with someone at least once a week. Many are only $100 per hour. Some of the best money I have ever spent.

Game - get outside and meet women. Day and night game. Go to Barnes and Noble and hit on the hot manager, get her number then take her home and do her(true story, I was depressed at the time). Being social with women is probably one of the most effective ways to pull you out of your funk as a single guy.

Sex and masturbation. I realize the no-fapp militants will scoff at this, and thats fine, I commend you that you dont have to ejaculate regularly. I already have high T, naturally. Im hard and think about sex constantly. I mainly fapp to sleep, about once a day. If I dont I get angry. If I am feeling run down I hold off for a few days. And sex is obvious, go find it responsibly, sex that makes you proud of yourself, not ashamed. Sex that aligns with your personal beliefs. Sex is the obvious first choice, as a result of game.

Consistent Exercise - obvious, daily. Go walk, do push ups and squats, ride a bike, go to a gym. The operative word here is consistency every single day for weeks.

Consistent social activities - the more the better, with friends or without. Get outside and meet and interact with people, until it feels right. Avoid bad people in general. If your family or friends are bad, avoid them at all costs.

I have endured many terrible things. Somehow I am still here on this earth. These are a few basic things, and I am sure others have more.

Post: #3

There are some threads dealing with anxiety and depression. Cognitive behavioral therapy is the most effective non medication treatment. General health and lifestyle changes will help. The great thing about CBT is that you can restructure your thinking patterns and beliefs. It is predicated on the simple premise that you can control your thoughts and hence your feelings.

Post: #4

How to cure anxiety and depression:

1. Increase the amount of adversity you face daily. Make things very hard on yourself. This will completely redefine what you're depressed about and you'll at least be depressed about something legitimate. Like working out, you'll eventually get accustomed to this new difficulty and you'll have to raise the bar. In two years, you won't even recognize yourself.

2. Dump all caffeine. If I had 300mg of caffeine a day, I'd be an anxious fuck too.

Post: #5

Bright light therapy is the safest and most effective modality for treating depression. Take a look at this thread:

/thread-39799.html

In an extremely significant randomized, multi-center study that came out recently, bright light therapy was shown to be more effective than anti-depressant medication in the treatment of depression:

/thread-39799...pid1165828

This should be your first step. Check out the bright light therapy thread, get a light box, and use it as instructed (every morning, shortly after waking, for 30 minutes at 10,000 Lux).

**************

In addition, take a look at this thread I posted a while ago, and follow as many of the recommendations in it as you can.

/thread-46677.html

Pay special attention to the comments about substances like alcohol and caffeine. All stimulants and depressants are terrible for the depressive and anxious brain; you should avoid them.

Finally, as mentioned by a previous poster, CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) is highly effective for reducing depression, and can be done in addition to bright light therapy and the lifestyle changes above. You would also benefit from checking out Dusty's great REBT thread:

/thread-28873.html

Post: #6

How do you stay awake without caffeine? I only drink it during lunch when I have an energy slump.

Post: #7

(01-10-2016 04:38 PM)kbell Wrote:  How do you stay awake without caffeine? I only drink it during lunch when I have an energy slump.

Sleep. If you're tired, it's your body's signal to sleep. Sleep after lunch. A nap will also help you wake up refreshed.

Post: #8

(01-10-2016 04:38 PM)kbell Wrote:  How do you stay awake without caffeine? I only drink it during lunch when I have an energy slump.

A few things:

1. First, it's mainly a matter of habit. Your brain is entrained to the administration of caffeine at that time, and will feel "off" if it doesn't get it. But the entrainment can be broken, it just takes a little time -- after a couple of weeks, you will no longer feel the need for it. So it's just a matter of making it through a transition period.

2. Don't eat excessively large meals, they make you feel sleepy and in need of a jolt. Have many small meals rather than a few large ones. This is much much better in any case for an IBS sufferer like yourself.

3. At root, you need a well-entrained, regular, and consistent sleeping schedule to feel wakeful throughout the day, and sleepy when it comes time for bed. If you really achieve such a schedule, and are getting well-structured and restorative sleep every night, you will not feel the need for stimulants to get you through the day. Have you been using your light box correctly and consistently? If not, you should be.

Post: #9

I regularly sleep 7-8 hrs. 7 hours on work days, 8-9 on off days. My fitbit monitors that nicely. The drainage is from dealing with problem patients and staff. Perhaps switching to ice tea with heavy cream (not sure how that will taste) will be a nice substitute than just water.

Post: #10

(01-10-2016 05:30 PM)kbell Wrote:  I regularly sleep 7-8 hrs. 7 hours on work days, 8-9 on off days. My fitbit monitors that nicely. The drainage is from dealing with problem patients and staff. Perhaps switching to ice tea with heavy cream (not sure how that will taste) will be a nice substitute than just water.

It's not just the amount of sleep, it's also the quality and structure of sleep that counts.

You are a depressive, and there is no depression without sleep dysregulation; they are as intimately related as two things can possibly be. So it's very possible that even though you're getting 7-8 hours of sleep, the sleep is not well-structured and not ideally restorative. Bright light therapy will ensure a proper sleep structure so that you will feel better rested throughout the day on the same amount of sleep. And you will feel a lot less depressed, as well.

Drinking water is a great habit to get into. Get a filtration system that will make your water taste really good, even just a simple Brita filter. That's a very worthwhile small investment. For someone with IBS, you don't want to be guzzling ice tea or any of that stuff. Water is f'ing great, learn to love it and your body and brain will be thanking you.

EDIT: another simple thing to do which Gio has written about -- just squeeze a few drops of lemon into your water. It will make it taste great, and it's really good for you, as well. Keep some good lemons in a fridge at work, as well as at home.

Post: #11

(01-10-2016 05:46 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  It's not just the amount of sleep, it's also the quality and structure of sleep that counts.

You are a depressive, and there is no depression without sleep dysregulation; they are as intimately related as two things can possibly be. So it's very possible that even though you're getting 7-8 hours of sleep, the sleep is not well-structured and not ideally restorative. Bright light therapy will ensure a proper sleep structure so that you will feel better rested throughout the day on the same amount of sleep. And you will feel a lot less depressed, as well.

That's really interesting. I've been depressed for a bit while I sleep from 11-12 to (depending on when I wake up) 7-9. I do bright light therapy and eyemasks and f.lux and all. Why would I still be depressed even with that? Is my sleep still just worth less than it should be for a healthy person?

If true that probably explains why I value sleep so much- because I have an underlying "deprivation" of good sleep and I feel I can't afford to skip even an hour of the sleep I already have even if I want to go clubbing or hang with friends.

Post: #12

(01-10-2016 06:58 PM)Centurion Wrote:  

(01-10-2016 05:46 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  It's not just the amount of sleep, it's also the quality and structure of sleep that counts.

You are a depressive, and there is no depression without sleep dysregulation; they are as intimately related as two things can possibly be. So it's very possible that even though you're getting 7-8 hours of sleep, the sleep is not well-structured and not ideally restorative. Bright light therapy will ensure a proper sleep structure so that you will feel better rested throughout the day on the same amount of sleep. And you will feel a lot less depressed, as well.

That's really interesting. I've been depressed for a bit while I sleep from 11-12 to (depending on when I wake up) 7-9. I do bright light therapy and eyemasks and f.lux and all. Why would I still be depressed even with that? Is my sleep still just worth less than it should be for a healthy person?

If true that probably explains why I value sleep so much- because I have an underlying "deprivation" of good sleep and I feel I can't afford to skip even an hour of the sleep I already have even if I want to go clubbing or hang with friends.

If you were doing bright light therapy consistently and correctly, your waking time would not vary in such a wide window as 7 to 9. You would be entrained to wake up at around the same time every morning, maybe within 10-15 minutes either way, and to go to bed at around the same time every night. Complete regularity is best in this context.

What is your exact BLT regimen?

Post: #13

(01-10-2016 07:04 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(01-10-2016 06:58 PM)Centurion Wrote:  

(01-10-2016 05:46 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  It's not just the amount of sleep, it's also the quality and structure of sleep that counts.

You are a depressive, and there is no depression without sleep dysregulation; they are as intimately related as two things can possibly be. So it's very possible that even though you're getting 7-8 hours of sleep, the sleep is not well-structured and not ideally restorative. Bright light therapy will ensure a proper sleep structure so that you will feel better rested throughout the day on the same amount of sleep. And you will feel a lot less depressed, as well.

That's really interesting. I've been depressed for a bit while I sleep from 11-12 to (depending on when I wake up) 7-9. I do bright light therapy and eyemasks and f.lux and all. Why would I still be depressed even with that? Is my sleep still just worth less than it should be for a healthy person?

If true that probably explains why I value sleep so much- because I have an underlying "deprivation" of good sleep and I feel I can't afford to skip even an hour of the sleep I already have even if I want to go clubbing or hang with friends.

If you were doing bright light therapy consistently and correctly, your waking time would not vary in such a wide window as 7 to 9. You would be entrained to wake up at around the same time every morning, maybe within 10-15 minutes either way, and to go to bed at around the same time every night. Complete regularity is best in this context.

What is your exact BLT regimen?

I do it as soon as I wake up and go on the computer. Then I leave it on if I still feel bad and it's cloudy and I don't want to go outside- so that actually might be for hours.

Post: #14

(01-10-2016 07:10 PM)Centurion Wrote:  I do it as soon as I wake up and go on the computer. Then I leave it on if I still feel bad and it's cloudy and I don't want to go outside- so that actually might be for hours.

I would need to know more. What kind of box do you use? Is it at the right distance to generate 10,000 lux? Is it a full spectrum box?

Your regimen should be to use it around the same time every morning, shortly after you wake up. Target a specific waking time, and try to establish it -- use an alarm the first few times if necessary, until you are waking up naturally seconds before the alarm. You want to establish entrainment to a highly regular sleeping schedule that has you getting up at around the same time every morning, and going to bed around the same time every night. You don't want to sleep in or oversleep -- that has negative effects on a depressive brain.

Further, when you use the box, use at for exactly 30 minutes at a distance that achieves an intensity of 10,000 Lux. Don't just leave it on for indefinite amounts of time, that is counterproductive.

All of this is described in detail in the bright light therapy thread I linked to earlier, so please check out that thread and follow the instructions there exactly. The details matter.

Post: #15

If you want to read some literature to help you as well, you can check out the book Mind Lines by Michael Hall. It is based on Neuro Linguistic Programming, and explains really well on how our brain interprets and frames how we think. Instead of buying this, I would suggest that you simply borrow any NLP book from a public library to get you going. If I was you, I would definitely try the Bright Light Therapy. I've never done it, but damn I starting to read about a lot of people who've had success with it. Curiously enough, for many centuries they treated a drop in humor with... taking a walk to get extra sun exposure! I definitely don't think it's a coincidence now

Post: #16

(01-10-2016 07:18 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(01-10-2016 07:10 PM)Centurion Wrote:  I do it as soon as I wake up and go on the computer. Then I leave it on if I still feel bad and it's cloudy and I don't want to go outside- so that actually might be for hours.

I would need to know more. What kind of box do you use? Is it at the right distance to generate 10,000 lux? Is it a full spectrum box?

Your regimen should be to use it around the same time every morning, shortly after you wake up. Target a specific waking time, and try to establish it -- use an alarm the first few times if necessary, until you are waking up naturally seconds before the alarm. You want to establish entrainment to a highly regular sleeping schedule that has you getting up at around the same time every morning, and going to bed around the same time every night. You don't want to sleep in or oversleep -- that has negative effects on a depressive brain.

Further, when you use the box, use at for exactly 30 minutes at a distance that achieves an intensity of 10,000 Lux. Don't just leave it on for indefinite amounts of time, that is counterproductive.

All of this is described in detail in the bright light therapy thread I linked to earlier, so please check out that thread and follow the instructions there exactly. The details matter.

Yes, it is a full spectrum 10k lux box. I put it at a distance of 6-7 feet(65 cm) away from me.

I leave it on longer because I notice I feel significantly more depressed on cloudy days than sunny days, and I was trying to replicate sunny days when I'm outside all the time. Does it also mean I should only go out in the sun in the mornings as well? Because the sun is significantly brighter than this.

Also, what exactly is the main benefit to a highly regular sleep schedule?

Post: #17

(01-10-2016 07:46 PM)Centurion Wrote:  Yes, it is a full spectrum 10k lux box. I put it at a distance of 6-7 feet(65 cm) away from me.

I leave it on longer because I notice I feel significantly more depressed on cloudy days than sunny days, and I was trying to replicate sunny days when I'm outside all the time. Does it also mean I should only go out in the sun in the mornings as well? Because the sun is significantly brighter than this.

Also, what exactly is the main benefit to a highly regular sleep schedule?

6 feet is 180cm, not 65 cm. Which is it?

60cm (or about 2 feet) would be just about the distance at which you could get 10,000 Lux for the larger boxes, like the SunRay 2. For smaller boxes like the Sunlight Jr., you need to be at about 14'' or 36cm or so.

Here is a paper you can check out about the relationship between sleep and depression:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles...10-329.pdf

What matters is the structure of your sleep. This structure becomes dysregulated in depression. A regular sleeping schedule helps entrain optimal sleep structure on a consistent basis.

Post: #18

Oops I did the conversion wrong. For some reason I thought there was 12 cm in a foot... In any case yes its 65cm- so just over 2 feet. What exactly causes my sleep structure to be bad in depression?

Oh and I think I have the Sunlight Jr or something similar to it- but how do you set it up so it's that close? It just seems very logistically difficult.

Post: #19

(01-10-2016 08:18 PM)Centurion Wrote:  Oops I did the conversion wrong. For some reason I thought there was 12 cm in a foot... In any case yes its 65cm- so just over 2 feet. What exactly causes my sleep structure to be bad in depression?

Oh and I think I have the Sunlight Jr or something similar to it- but how do you set it up so it's that close? It just seems very logistically difficult.

If you have something like the Sunlight Jr, then the distance should be 14'' or about 35.5cm. You're getting nowhere near 10,000 Lux at 65cm if that's the case. That may also be why you're trying to leave it on for so long, because you're just not getting the Lux you need.

What is the exact brand of your box? Take a look at it and post it. We should be able to find the specs for this box and the correct distance to get 10,000 Lux.

I don't see why 35.5cm is logistically difficult. You sit at a desk and put the box in front of you and to the side so that the light is shining towards you at an angle. What's so hard about that?

As far as what's causing sleep dysregulation in depression, that is a complex question and is not fully understood. But all that matters to you is that they are very intimately connected, and once you establish a consistent sleeping schedule with good structure, your depressive state will be very significantly ameliorated.

Post: #20

I'll throw in my $.02, as I have particular personal interest in this topic.

IMHO, there is no panacea for something like depression. Most likely the causes are multivariate. As others point out on this thread, adequate and restful sleep is undoubtedly huge. So is stress and self-esteem (the *real kind.)

* What I mean by self-esteem is this: if you don't do anything productive or meaningful for the majority of your life, you should feel like shit cause you 'aint doin' shit.

But all of that aside, I'll focus on the dietary aspects of depression and how you can treat it

We got two main fronts when it comes to diet and depression: nutritional deficiency and systemic inflammation.

Vitamin D deficiency, and a diet bereft of adequate healthy saturated fats and omega 3 fatty acids are key contributors to not just Depression but a host of other health problems.

Worse yet, in our inverted mass media mind controlled society, all of the foods we are told are "healthy" are exactly the opposite. All the low fat, non-fat, "cholesterol free" processed foods not only fail to provide the vitally important fat soluble vitamins, they actually cause your body to deplete it's stores of what you do have when you keep consuming them.

Eat lots of wholesome sourced saturated fats. Meat, dairy, eggs and fat from pastured free range (grass fed) animals are best. Grass fed/free range beef, bison, chickens, pigs, goat, lamb, kangaroo or yak. Any ruminant that eats grass.

Get as much mid day sunshine as your skin can handle without getting burned, and without using any sunscreen. That's your best source of Vitamin D, period.

Eat lots of fatty fish rich in Omega 3 fatty acids in EPA and DHA form. This is the best treatment for systemic inflammation caused by eating too much Omega 6 fatty acids (mostly found in abundance in processed foods), as well as from too much sugar.

Speaking of which, cut out sugar and any processed foods.

Don't eat any foods made with modern processed vegetable oils, as they also contribute to inflammation. Soybean (often labelled "vegetable oil," Rapeseed (often labelled "Canola oil"), Corn, Cotton seed, and even non-extra virgin olive oil are all inflammatory. Most are also mass extracted from the plant material by boiling in the solvent Hexane...which is most assuredly not natural nor healthy.

Ignore vegan/vegetarian propaganda about seed vegetable sources of Omega 3s like hemp, sunflower, flax etc. Those are in the form of ALA and the human body has a very hard time using ALA. Animals like chickens, cows, buffalo, fish and pigs eat ALA sources omega 3s and convert it into EPA and DHA and store it in their fats.

Do cook with and eat lots of healthy oils like Extra Virgin olive, coconut, avocado, macadamia nut, or other non-GMO oils. Avoid all hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated oils.

Bone broth soups and stock for sauces and gravy made from the boiled bones of grass fed animals. In addition to Omega 3's stored in the fat, also has a wealth of other beneficial nutrients like glutiathone, methianone, collagen, etc.

Another good thing that is often overlooked with diet, is minerals. More importantly, find a good source of unprocessed sea salt (pink himalayan is starting to get really popular). Fresh ground sea salt makes all your food taste better and gives you all the trace elements and minerals your body needs. Never mind the "salt gives you high blood pressure" propaganda.

Once you change your diet to incorporate all the nutrient dense foods and you stop consuming the nutrient depleting and deficient foods, you should start to feel better.

That being said, once you're properly fueled, the next best step is to get active and do something ANYTHING that makes you sweat and also makes you release adrenaline and sweat out bad shit (I hate the term "toxins" as it's overused by quacks and bullshit "cleansing" gurus) from your lymphatic system. Your activity you choose needs to make you give your maximum possible exertion of energy and physically exhausts you when you're done. Then eat good after your exhaustion, then get good sleep.

TL;DR

The best way to combat depression is:

*Eat clean
*Exercise
*Get mid day sunlight exposure
*Get good sleep

It's not an overnight cure, but it is the only true one you'll get. Pharma meds are just a means of addressing the symptoms and not fixing the root problem of eating shitty, not exercising properly, and not getting good sunlight. Fix those three, and you'll most likely fix any sleep and stress issues you over the long term.

Post: #21

Natural supplements work for me. A combo of ginkgo biloba, ginseng, gaba, green/black tea will have you feeling a lot better and you'll have more energy as well. I broke up with a girl earlier this year and ginkgo biloba helped me a lot throughout the break up. Also, a one a day multi vitamin will help.

Another important thing is to always stay busy. It's when you have down time and you're alone that your anxious thoughts start occurring.

Post: #22

It may sound new age-ish but I heard it from a guy I highly admire. "Anger is fear turned outward and depression is fear turned inward."

Post: #23

swap the medication for meditation

Post: #24

*If your depression is severe, instead of low or moderate, medication can save your life. Severe depression is typically characterized by frequent suicidal thoughts, insomnia, loss of appetite, inability to function in a meaningful way.*

That said, if your depression is low/moderate, there are good ways to get rid of it without meds.

1. Exercise. Every day. Something is better than nothing. It doesn't have to be a hard core lifting program. if you haven't done any physical activity for a while, start with a morning walk of 20 or 30 minutes. Routine is important.

2. Eat. Cook your own meals with the freshest highest quality ingredients possible. Plenty of salad and veggies.

3. Sleep. Go to sleep at the same time, wake up at the same time, keep a good rhythm. Read before sleep instead of watching a movie/tv/internet.

4. Socialize. Even though you might not want to see anyone or do anything, you MUST get your ass outside and talk to another person face to face. It doesn't matter whether for game or for coffee or making conversation with a WW2 vet feeding pigeons in the park. The important thing is human contact.

5. Outside. Take walks in nature, go for runs/hike/bike rides. Sun and fresh air is very good for your body and mind. If you live in some Nordic climate with no light or a heavily polluted area where going outside is difficult, and there is no sun...then try light therapy. Buy lights online, set yourself up with meditation music and do 15 minute zen sessions.

6. Relax. A lot of low/moderate depression has its roots in a negative thought cycle rather than a chemical imbalance. Take out the mental trash. Don't worry about the world or politics or that bullshit. A hundred years from now we will all be dead, and so will anyone we ever met or knew. Accept what life is, and don't let bullshit seem important. Mindfulness exercises, where you work on being present in the moment instead of distracted, are very useful.

Good luck!

Post: #25

1. As someone mentioned above, try meditation. The simpliest is japa-meditation. Check it out.
2. Long-distance running. Run for an hour in the morning or evening. It naturally produces endorphines.
3. Quit smoking and alcohol. Alcohol is a central nervous system (CNS) depressant leading to dependence, and lowering both cognitive and physical capacities.