Post: #1

I see a lot of Rooshers extolling the virtues of living abroad, so I thought this would be an interesting discussion topic.

Here's the question: Can you be an expat forever? Do you know happy, well-adjusted expat lifers?

I just moved back to the US from China a few months ago. I was there for four years. Possibly the best years of my life, but by the end I felt quite stressed about my "exit strategy" and opted to return to the US to get established. Readjusting is tough, but I'm going to give it at least a year before I seriously entertain the idea of moving abroad again. Family, rule of law, home/land ownership, healthier environment, etc were all key factors in my decision.

My take on the above question: It may have just been the ones I came across in China, but most of the expat lifers I met seemed pretty bitter and jaded about life. Now, it may just be that life abroad attracts a lot of people with this type of temperament, or it could be that everyone eventually gets tired of being an expat and wants to go home. My guess is that it's a little bit of both. In any event, I think the majority of people are better off repatriating eventually, but it depends on your career and lifestyle abroad.

What's your take?

Post: #2

China just seems like the kind of place that pumps out pissed off, irritated expats. I know that's what it'd do for me.

Other than a that though there are some people who legitimately do not fit in with their home culture. For whatever reason their place of birth is not congruent with who they are, and that fact overrides any emotional ties to the place they'll have.

If you're one of those people you can be an expat forever. And if you pick your place right and have good language skills, you can make it either forever or a really long time away from your home country. Home for an increasing number of people is an abstraction, and not really a place they are rooted in—or worse, a place that doesn't even want them.

Post: #3

(04-07-2016 02:01 PM)Tex Wrote:  Other than a that though there are some people who legitimately do not fit in with their home culture. For whatever reason their place of birth is not congruent with who they are, and that fact overrides any emotional ties to the place they'll have.

If you're one of those people you can be an expat forever. And if you pick your place right and have good language skills, you can make it either forever or a really long time away from your home country. Home for an increasing number of people is an abstraction, and not really a place they are rooted in—or worse, a place that doesn't even want them.

A lot of truth to this. I agree that it depends a lot on location. I'm mainly referring to developing countries in my post, which is where I think the majority of expats here go. In many of these countries expats can't legally own property and are regarded as outsiders even if highly fluent in the local language and culture. At a certain point returning home is less about emotional attachment than practicality/reaching a ceiling in your host country. But I agree a lot with your last point. The concept of home fades away with age, especially when you're abroad. Going back to your home country can be downright scary after a while.

Post: #4

I´ve been an expat for about 5 years now. I really don´t see myself going back to my homecountry. I must say it is also very hard for me to picture me settling down in any place, but that might change still I guess. For now I maintain the position that settling down, if there are no kids in the picture, is a losing position.

Post: #5

Rottenapple, if you don't mind me asking, where are you from and where do you live now?

Post: #6

I can't imagine myself ever returning to the US. That said, Mexico (or somewhere else in Latin America) will be my home with roots. I'll buy property, run my business and raise my children in one location. Only a narrow range of people would enjoy the no fixed address, passport run every three months sort of constant traveling forever. It's great at 27, but at 57, I imagine I'd enjoy it much less.

I left the US, just as family left Eastern Europe a century ago, because my country had failed. It was no longer a place where a man had the support of society to mind his own house and raise a healthy family. Whether or not we want to live abroad, men have to make tough choices if they want to carry on their honorable family names.

Post: #7

I've been an expat for close to 8 years, I never even missed home. Much to my parents' chagrin.

FYI, I'm Vietnamese and lived 4 years in USA and now 3 years in France. Despite all this invasion shit, I won't be going home unless actual war breaks out here, and even then.

I can see why a lot of you guys like SEA, and I agree that its the best place in the world to spend money and vacation, hands down. However, that only applies if you have the option of going away. If you dont and have to be stuck there for 4 years straight you will know what I mean.

The people are cheating, shortsighted and a lot of the time, uncivilized. Pollution is off the chart. Vietnamese street food tops the list of the best cuisines in the world but if you know how the food is made you will never eat out again. You have a much higher chance of getting killed in a car accident than being blown to bits by ISIS. Corruption is rampant, although if you have money its actually a good thing, because you can bribe anything and anyone.

I dont see myself going back, ever. My sister also make arrangements to move to move to Canada. SEA is simply not a good place to grow your kids. The good thing with being Asian is that, my culture is everywhere. A few metro stops from my apartment in Paris and I can get to the Vietnamese district here and eat Viet food. I dont miss anything.

French girls are hot, and if I ever decide that I want an Asian girl, plenty to choose from too. It would be more or less the same in Poland or Netherlands. Cant speak for Russia though.

Post: #8

I don't know honestly.

I always feel that sense of relief of always being able to turn off my brain when returning to my home country. I know where to buy anything, I know how to make a decent amount of money in a short amount of time and I don't have the army at the beach holding machine guns.

But I also don't have girls eye fucking me or brushing up against me, awesome weather and beach time, cheap food and accomdation, and a chilled out sanctuary away from it all.

I just think you need to use everything at your disposal.

Post: #9

It's tough. Seeing the world makes you dislike every place to some degree. Coming back to the US from Japan felt to me like moving from a gorgeous office building to an empty Walmart parking lot.

On the other hand, having a family changes many things. Living with kids is usually cheaper at home so long as you can find decent public schools. Someday we may be able to just give them an iPad and have it all available remotely, but a full curriculum is not quite there yet. And if you raise your kids in another country, they will feel more at home there and absorb the values of that place. That can be tough. It can open a rift with your own children. You must ask yourself whether you really want them to make their lives there primarily.

For most guys, being an expat is sort of an escape. Escaping only works well when you don't have kids or roots.

Post: #10

Family and roots play a huge role. I come from a big family and living across the country for three years was tough. I can't imagine a holiday season overseas. I'd feel like I was abandoning my family and loved ones. But I have a sort of melancholic envy for guys who don't have a large home base. Not being tied down to anyone or anything seems like the absolute freedom. Yet I'm sure they are envious of my way of life at times. The grass is always greener.

I think we all want roots somewhere at some point in our lives. It's human nature to seek a tribe. It may be on the other side of the globe for some, but the majority of people end up settling a few hours from where they grew up. I don't know about you guys, but the "60 year old nomad" data sheet bums me out. I'd much rather have the "60 year old patriarch" data sheet.

Post: #11

(04-07-2016 01:36 PM)Shoubuliao Wrote:  I see a lot of Rooshers extolling the virtues of living abroad, so I thought this would be an interesting discussion topic.

Here's the question: Can you be an expat forever? Do you know happy, well-adjusted expat lifers?

I just moved back to the US from China a few months ago. I was there for four years. Possibly the best years of my life, but by the end I felt quite stressed about my "exit strategy" and opted to return to the US to get established. Readjusting is tough, but I'm going to give it at least a year before I seriously entertain the idea of moving abroad again. Family, rule of law, home/land ownership, healthier environment, etc were all key factors in my decision.

My take on the above question: It may have just been the ones I came across in China, but most of the expat lifers I met seemed pretty bitter and jaded about life. Now, it may just be that life abroad attracts a lot of people with this type of temperament, or it could be that everyone eventually gets tired of being an expat and wants to go home. My guess is that it's a little bit of both. In any event, I think the majority of people are better off repatriating eventually, but it depends on your career and lifestyle abroad.

What's your take?

Ive been in China for 10+ years.

One important factor is how a person lives their life. I live on a beautiful university campus in the middle of a city. To the east of my campus is another large park and to the west of the campus is river with a developed walkway along it for miles. If it weren't for this I wouldn't live in China very long. I don't have a commute, I walk 10 minutes to class, so I don't have loud cars and traffic to deal with. I don't have the hordes of people and pushing to get on the subway or bus. This is extremely important. I tried for one year to get a baller apartment outside and it was terrible each morning.

Another thing to consider is what a person does with their time. I learned Mandarin to a near fluent level. I read novels in Chinese, the newspaper, etc. So I never worry about communication or problems with not being able to say what I want, whenever. I don't drink much and exercise a lot, sleep 8 hours a night. A lot of young guys come here, drink all day and night, fuck anything they can, don't exercise, smoke, eat low quality street food and then "feel bad" or "burned out". Which would happen anywhere. China just allows this behavior to be possible.

I spent a 4 month period in the states recently and I can say I don't want anything to do with it. People are zombie leftists and terrify me. It used to be vegans were annoying. Now people have that mentality - they want to tell you all about their weird cult -- but it has to do with gay people, transgender, black lives matter, etc. I have no interest in that. Plus I get paid very well in China. This year will be another 30k+ USD saved and that is only working 8-9 months a year.

Post: #12

It depends.

I lived abroad for 3 years but also had similar feelings as OP and also observed a ton of bitter expats who had been there for too long. I did know some expats who were truly happy being "lifers" in South Korea, but they were the exception and typically had a lot going for them professional and socially (most of this starting with them becoming fluent or very proficient in the language).

Personally, I felt that I could succeed more professionally and financially back home and I valued that, along with being closer to my family, more than I valued living in Asia.

Especially when it come to raising a family, I'm not sure I could see myself doing that abroad. At the end of the day it really comes to the individual and what they want out of life.

Post: #13

I've been an expat for 1/3 or my life, living in different countries and cities and also traveling around a lot. A few points:

-I used to worry about locals who don't like me or the fact that I live in their country and am more successful than some of them are. Now I just don't give a fuck. Remember, boos come from cheap seats. Having said that, I haven't spent a day in any country illegally and never intend to do so. If you come to a new country, you have to play by the rules and contribute to society. As long as you do that, you can ignore the haters and focus on your own success.

-The world is global now. I have more in common with people from similar backgrounds in terms of education, career, etc., than with many people of the same ethnic background. Also, most of my long term friends live in other cities and countries, and it's easier than ever to stay in touch with them. Having said that, I lost a lot of friends because I moved around a lot.

-I have no idea where I'm going to be in a few years and where I'm going to retire, but I'm used to an expat lifestyle, so I'm comfortable continuing moving around. Finding a place to stay and getting around in a new city or country used to be difficult back in the day, but now with Uber, Airbnb, mobile internet and Google Maps, you arrive and get settled in almost immediately as long as you have enough money to use all these services.

I believe every man should try spending at least a few months in a different country. It opens your mind and makes you a better, more interesting person. However, while you can evolve and make your life better (or worse) by moving, your fundamental personality traits will not change. You can't run away from yourself.

Post: #14

(04-07-2016 06:56 PM)ball dont lie Wrote:  I spent a 4 month period in the states recently and I can say I don't want anything to do with it. People are zombie leftists and terrify me. It used to be vegans were annoying. Now people have that mentality - they want to tell you all about their weird cult -- but it has to do with gay people, transgender, black lives matter, etc. I have no interest in that.

Dude, so fucking this. I have a truly visceral hatred for what I'm seeing in the US right now from libtard progressives. People have lost their minds. I truly miss the non-existent sense of entitlement and political correctness in China. The US media is just as much of a propaganda machine as the ccp controlled media in China. It's horribly disillusioning. In some ways I'm more hesitant about raising children here given what I'm seeing from young people these days. I love the US, but I can't help but feel like it deserves to fail if this is what society is coming to. I hardly recognize it anymore.

Post: #15

(04-07-2016 07:21 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  ...

Brodiaga, ever plan to get married and have kids? Just curious. You mentioned retiring, and for some reason that question popped in my head. Thanks.

Post: #16

(04-07-2016 07:32 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(04-07-2016 07:21 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  ...

Brodiaga, ever plan to get married and have kids? Just curious. You mentioned retiring, and for some reason that question popped in my head. Thanks.

Not in the near future, but I'm open to the idea.

Post: #17

I have been an expat in my adopted country for about a decade. Although there are things here I don't like, I have grown used to most of them. Moving back to the US would not be appealing other than for professional opportunities. Nothing there grabs my attention and I didn't really fit in. Here being an outsider works in my favor. I don't run in expat circles. That was a deliberate decision and it has worked out for me.

Post: #18

Interesting thread. I don't know the answer to this, so I didn't vote.

It seems to successfully expat forever, you need to learn the language and assimilate into their culture. And you also need to be prepared for the possibility of raising kids in a foreign culture where they will learn different values from the ones you grew up with.

Can I pull this off? Am I prepared for this? I honestly don't know.

Interesting to hear from others who took the plunge though, especially the part where they loathe going back to the US.

Post: #19

Let me be a bit more specific to this question, because it is a valid one. These are the reasons why I would never consider going back to Europe:

-Asocial culture (people really don't talk to each other, difficult to meet people, no basic friendliness like saying hi on the street).
-Ugly women (this is the Nr.1 reason to be honest, I'm in Latin America, there is no comparison really).
-Failed multiculturalism (no need to explain this here I guess).
-People work too much, too much stress.
-Expensive.
-My social status; here I am exotic and of high value, in my home country I'm just above average.
-I got good friends in my home country, but it sickens me to see them do nothing significant with their lives. They are also very passive while I live to experience new shit, to learn, to meet new people, ...
-Many of them settled down, so my life there would be much more boring then what it was when I was a student.
-Nature in Europe is not as spectacular as here. Also for sports it doesn't come close.
-Living in Europe is unhealthy. Shitty processed food, chemicals everywhere, bad air quality, ... These for me are important factors.

Now I do miss things and there are things I can't find so easily in other countries:

-Family
-Friends, because of my high value where I live now, I do great with girls, but the guys overall all very envious. Not as easy to make really good friends, also because
-Lack of intellectual culture. In second/third world countries many people are not educated and also generally don't care about things outside their direct environment. Having a good deep conversation over some beers is rare and if it happens its probably with other expats. My knowledge on worldly themes comes from this site and the internet in general. Learning something from a local here is a rare occasion.

So overall, for me the benefits outweigh the downsides and what is important in this discussion is that I don't see the state of Europe getting better. Even when having a family, ok the social benefits etc. are there and the level of the schools is generally higher, but where I live now I could send my kids to the best institutions where they would be surrounded by the elite of the country, I would add my own education and because of their exotic genes they would most likely be more popular etc. They grow up in a healthier environment, where they would have all the chances of having a successful and fulfilling life.

So, I don't see myself going back to my home country for an extended stay ever. The only reason would be if it would be necessary for my parents due to illness or something. This brings me to one of the hardest things of the expat life. I kind off feel ungrateful towards my parents. They gave me everything and when I come to the age where I am able to give back, I move out and go live other countries, while maintaining infrequent and mostly impersonal contact (I'm not a skype kind of guy). I hope by the time when they get older and would have more need of their son close to them, I'll be making more money overseas so I can visit them frequently. I can see myself having a life in the style of an ambassador, 4 years in a country and then moving to the next one. Making good money, your kids grow in a changing but always top environment, your life never gets dull, you experience and learn a lot...

And a last thing I want to note. Some of the coolest people I've met were children of life long expats. Having lived in many places: they were educated, open minded, social and often a bit crazy, but never boring. And as a man in this world, I remember having an after work meeting with all my bosses in Africa once. All of them lived crazy lives, some in over 20 countries (many dirt poor fucked up countries), most over the age of 50, and guess what... they talked and acted like 20 year olds; alive, with spirit, talking about interesting topics, not afraid to be politically incorrect, talking about their hot 20 year younger foreign wives... When I contrast that to the men of similar age in Europe, in my opinion most of them are pretty much dead already. They do nothing in their lives, their minds are not active anymore, what they have left is routine and regret.

I know which route I prefer.

Post: #20

(04-07-2016 11:34 PM)rottenapple Wrote:  Let me be a bit more specific to this question, because it is a valid one. These are the reasons why I would never consider going back to Europe:

-Asocial culture (people really don't talk to each other, difficult to meet people, no basic friendliness like saying hi on the street).
-Ugly women (this is the Nr.1 reason to be honest, I'm in Latin America, there is no comparison really).
-Failed multiculturalism (no need to explain this here I guess).
-People work too much, too much stress.
-Expensive.
-My social status; here I am exotic and of high value, in my home country I'm just above average.
-I got good friends in my home country, but it sickens me to see them do nothing significant with their lives. They are also very passive while I live to experience new shit, to learn, to meet new people, ...
-Many of them settled down, so my life there would be much more boring then what it was when I was a student.
-Nature in Europe is not as spectacular as here. Also for sports it doesn't come close.
-Living in Europe is unhealthy. Shitty processed food, chemicals everywhere, bad air quality, ... These for me are important factors.

You kinda blew my mind with this list because, as an American, I was under the impression that Europe is the exact opposite of what you just described. Then again, I've been in Europe only as a tourist and maybe I looked at it with rose-colored glasses..

Post: #21

TigerMandigo, you should take his post with a grain of salt. I'm European too and see it like this:

rottenapple Wrote:-Asocial culture (people really don't talk to each other, difficult to meet people, no basic friendliness like saying hi on the street).
This will be mostly the case in the big cities and particularly in the Germanic and Scandinavian countries. I haven't met too many Dutch people before but always had a picture in my mind they're more open than, say, Germans. Is this not true?
-Ugly women (this is the Nr.1 reason to be honest, I'm in Latin America, there is no comparison really).
There many ugly women, granted, not least because of obesity and feminism-related appearance choices. Plus women in Latin/South America look exotic to us.
-Failed multiculturalism (no need to explain this here I guess).
Agreed.
-People work too much, too much stress.
People work way less than in the States. Of course this differs from country to country but where I come from it's fairly balanced.
-Expensive.
Compared to South America - certainly. Central and Southern Europe however are still very affordable, save for Switzerland.
-My social status; here I am exotic and of high value, in my home country I'm just above average.
Agreed.
-I got good friends in my home country, but it sickens me to see them do nothing significant with their lives. They are also very passive while I live to experience new shit, to learn, to meet new people, ...
Agreed (however I still need to be a bit more outgoing too).
-Many of them settled down, so my life there would be much more boring then what it was when I was a student.
Agreed. But this will happen pretty much everywhere unless you only surround yourself with people living the bachelor lifestyle.
-Nature in Europe is not as spectacular as here. Also for sports it doesn't come close.
Depends on what you like I guess. Personally I love mountains and it's hard to beat places like Norway - there are heaps of beautiful spots in Europe, no rainforest though.
-Living in Europe is unhealthy. Shitty processed food, chemicals everywhere, bad air quality, ... These for me are important factors.
Not sure what you are referring to? Fresh foods are widely available and more popular than in the US/Canada from what I've read on the forum, chemicals are widely regulated within the EU and the bad stuff is not more present than elsewhere but less (this is one of the good things), and you can avoid them if you want to. Without having been I dare to say it wouldn't be much different from what you can find in Ecuadorian supermarkets? Air quality is perfectly fine in my opinion, I would be curious where you used to live?

Nevertheless a good post and it inspires me to try out more in the near future.

As for the thread subject, I've been an expat for three years now and I can see myself living in other countries...but forever? At present that would probably be a "no", as I miss a lot of things from my home country. Also I've never appreciated its location nor all the things you can see within proximity of the place you live. I might go back in a couple of years, only to hit the road again later - fortunately the opportunities are out there, it's all matter of being aware of them (and for that, I have to thank this forum at this occasion!).

To be an expat for an extended period of time I find it crucial to have some people around you you can connect to, something I don't have at the moment and probably the main reason why I will wave farewell sometime in the next two years.

Post: #22

(04-08-2016 04:32 AM)Quaestum Wrote:  TigerMandigo, you should take his post with a grain of salt. I'm European too and see it like this:

rottenapple Wrote:-Asocial culture (people really don't talk to each other, difficult to meet people, no basic friendliness like saying hi on the street).
This will be mostly the case in the big cities and particularly in the Germanic and Scandinavian countries. I haven't met too many Dutch people before but always had a picture in my mind they're more open than, say, Germans. Is this not true?
-Ugly women (this is the Nr.1 reason to be honest, I'm in Latin America, there is no comparison really).
There many ugly women, granted, not least because of obesity and feminism-related appearance choices. Plus women in Latin/South America look exotic to us.
-Failed multiculturalism (no need to explain this here I guess).
Agreed.
-People work too much, too much stress.
People work way less than in the States. Of course this differs from country to country but where I come from it's fairly balanced.
-Expensive.
Compared to South America - certainly. Central and Southern Europe however are still very affordable, save for Switzerland.
-My social status; here I am exotic and of high value, in my home country I'm just above average.
Agreed.
-I got good friends in my home country, but it sickens me to see them do nothing significant with their lives. They are also very passive while I live to experience new shit, to learn, to meet new people, ...
Agreed (however I still need to be a bit more outgoing too).
-Many of them settled down, so my life there would be much more boring then what it was when I was a student.
Agreed. But this will happen pretty much everywhere unless you only surround yourself with people living the bachelor lifestyle.
-Nature in Europe is not as spectacular as here. Also for sports it doesn't come close.
Depends on what you like I guess. Personally I love mountains and it's hard to beat places like Norway - there are heaps of beautiful spots in Europe, no rainforest though.
-Living in Europe is unhealthy. Shitty processed food, chemicals everywhere, bad air quality, ... These for me are important factors.
Not sure what you are referring to? Fresh foods are widely available and more popular than in the US/Canada from what I've read on the forum, chemicals are widely regulated within the EU and the bad stuff is not more present than elsewhere but less (this is one of the good things), and you can avoid them if you want to. Without having been I dare to say it wouldn't be much different from what you can find in Ecuadorian supermarkets? Air quality is perfectly fine in my opinion, I would be curious where you used to live?

Nevertheless a good post and it inspires me to try out more in the near future.

As for the thread subject, I've been an expat for three years now and I can see myself living in other countries...but forever? At present that would probably be a "no", as I miss a lot of things from my home country. Also I've never appreciated its location nor all the things you can see within proximity of the place you live. I might go back in a couple of years, only to hit the road again later - fortunately the opportunities are out there, it's all matter of being aware of them (and for that, I have to thank this forum at this occasion!).

To be an expat for an extended period of time I find it crucial to have some people around you you can connect to, something I don't have at the moment and probably the main reason why I will wave farewell sometime in the next two years.

Ok let me clarify. First of all, it was a personal opinion coming from my perspective and offcourse Europe has a lot of diversity. This plays a huge role in my analysis. I am from Central Europe.

-Dutch people are more open than Germans, but they are kind of the strange bird in Central Europe. Besides Germans, I wouldn´t call Belgians, French, Austrians, Swiss as being socially open. People are overall more serious and introvert than what I am used to in South America/Africa and the States.

-Ugly women: I exclude Eastern Europe here, I love women from those countries and I can´t comment on Scandinavia. However, Latin American women are my ideal, not only in looks, but in general feminine attitude as well. Many men will agree.

-Work: Yes, we work a lot less than Americans. I truly pity the Americans that take one week holiday a year. However Europeans also work very hard, in less time. They might not be sitting ten hours at their desk every day, but in the 8 hours when they do, they are under pressure and they work hard. My comparison is not with the US, but with most of second and third world. The general work athmosphere is more relaxed. People have less stress, no doubt about it. One thing I forgot to mention is the weather. When you arrive at work soaked by rain and cold, you tend to be in a less mood than when here I arrive at my work after a nice walk through the park in the sun.

-Expensive: Yes talking about Central and Northern Europe, Eastern Europe is fine, Southern Europe is ok as well. Still L.A. and Africa beat them easily.

-Settling down: Yes, but one thing I noticed is people here in Latin America still go out a lot even when married or with children. You can see 60 year olds on the dancefloor here, how many times does that happen in Europe? The difference between settling down here and in Europe is big and that is part of what I am referring to. In Europe, I have friends that really dissapeared from social life once they had a fixed girl. Might be country specific or just related to my own life, but that is what I mean.

-Nature: Agreed nature in Norway or many other places is very beautiful. However, Norway is extremely expensive. In Ecuador with 15 bucks from Quito I can reach or tropical beaches, or some of the highest and most spectacular volcanoes and mountains in the world or the Amazon rainforest. The country can´t be beat in this regard. Probably Nr.1 spot in the world in terms of diversity, spectacular beauty and affordability. Other countries in the area, as well as in Africa or the States beat Central Europe easily in this regard.

"Not sure what you are referring to? Fresh foods are widely available and more popular than in the US/Canada from what I've read on the forum, chemicals are widely regulated within the EU and the bad stuff is not more present than elsewhere but less (this is one of the good things), and you can avoid them if you want to. Without having been I dare to say it wouldn't be much different from what you can find in Ecuadorian supermarkets? Air quality is perfectly fine in my opinion, I would be curious where you used to live"

I think we have to disagree on this one. Fresh foods are available in bio shops where you pay the double of what is already expensive. How many guys under 30 do you know that can afford to buy all their food in bio shops? Once again the US is worse off, but that is not what I am comparing to. Chemicals are more prevalent in Europe than in Africa/South America and I imagine most of Asia, that is a fact. You can avoid them? Good for you if you can but you must be an expert on the matter then, because they are everywhere. In your food, your furniture, anything plastic, the toys of your children, all cosmetics, etc. If you study the matter and really think about it continuously, you could avoid it for a big part. However, air quality, wow I have no idea what you refer too. Air quality is absolute shit in Central Europe. Maybe if you live in the South of France or the Schwarzwalde area in Germany it can be ok, Switzerland perhaps is ok as well. The rest is among the worst of the world. Belgium, Holland, the Ruhr area have dramatic air quality. There is no official data, but you can be assured many disseases are linked to this. You cannot compare it to anywhere in Latin America or Africa (perhaps Sao Paolo/Cairo could have similar problems but those are extremes). And a majority of the fruits I buy here in a supermarket in Ecuador are organic and dirt cheap. The food industry here is not as developed so a lot of food still comes from small time farmers. It is no issue at all to find unprocessed, high quality food for a very good price. They can even deliver fruit and vegetable baskets at your place. The diversity of the food is very high as well and in general if you want the processed imported crap, you pay extra, so you would not only be damaging your health but also your wallet.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

Post: #23

Yes. Canada is too fucking cold.

Post: #24

(04-08-2016 09:32 AM)rottenapple Wrote:  I think we have to disagree on this one. Fresh foods are available in bio shops where you pay the double of what is already expensive. How many guys under 30 do you know that can afford to buy all their food in bio shops? Once again the US is worse off, but that is not what I am comparing to. Chemicals are more prevalent in Europe than in Africa/South America and I imagine most of Asia, that is a fact. You can avoid them? Good for you if you can but you must be an expert on the matter then, because they are everywhere. In your food, your furniture, anything plastic, the toys of your children, all cosmetics, etc. If you study the matter and really think about it continuously, you could avoid it for a big part. However, air quality, wow I have no idea what you refer too. Air quality is absolute shit in Central Europe. Maybe if you live in the South of France or the Schwarzwalde area in Germany it can be ok, Switzerland perhaps is ok as well. The rest is among the worst of the world. Belgium, Holland, the Ruhr area have dramatic air quality. There is no official data, but you can be assured many disseases are linked to this. You cannot compare it to anywhere in Latin America or Africa (perhaps Sao Paolo/Cairo could have similar problems but those are extremes). And a majority of the fruits I buy here in a supermarket in Ecuador are organic and dirt cheap. The food industry here is not as developed so a lot of food still comes from small time farmers. It is no issue at all to find unprocessed, high quality food for a very good price. They can even deliver fruit and vegetable baskets at your place. The diversity of the food is very high as well and in general if you want the processed imported crap, you pay extra, so you would not only be damaging your health but also your wallet.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

I find your post very informative, but I do have to disagree on the Air quality in Europe. While I am looking to get out of the Netherlands myself for a variety of reasons, the air quality is not one of them. Look at the index on this map:

Air pollution world map

I agree on the ruhr area, and I would not want to live close, but having been in parts of Asia, I sure think the air over here is clean. According to the map, it's actually better then Ecuador or many other places.

Post: #25

(04-08-2016 11:45 AM)Thaitanium Wrote:  

(04-08-2016 09:32 AM)rottenapple Wrote:  I think we have to disagree on this one. Fresh foods are available in bio shops where you pay the double of what is already expensive. How many guys under 30 do you know that can afford to buy all their food in bio shops? Once again the US is worse off, but that is not what I am comparing to. Chemicals are more prevalent in Europe than in Africa/South America and I imagine most of Asia, that is a fact. You can avoid them? Good for you if you can but you must be an expert on the matter then, because they are everywhere. In your food, your furniture, anything plastic, the toys of your children, all cosmetics, etc. If you study the matter and really think about it continuously, you could avoid it for a big part. However, air quality, wow I have no idea what you refer too. Air quality is absolute shit in Central Europe. Maybe if you live in the South of France or the Schwarzwalde area in Germany it can be ok, Switzerland perhaps is ok as well. The rest is among the worst of the world. Belgium, Holland, the Ruhr area have dramatic air quality. There is no official data, but you can be assured many disseases are linked to this. You cannot compare it to anywhere in Latin America or Africa (perhaps Sao Paolo/Cairo could have similar problems but those are extremes). And a majority of the fruits I buy here in a supermarket in Ecuador are organic and dirt cheap. The food industry here is not as developed so a lot of food still comes from small time farmers. It is no issue at all to find unprocessed, high quality food for a very good price. They can even deliver fruit and vegetable baskets at your place. The diversity of the food is very high as well and in general if you want the processed imported crap, you pay extra, so you would not only be damaging your health but also your wallet.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

I find your post very informative, but I do have to disagree on the Air quality in Europe. While I am looking to get out of the Netherlands myself for a variety of reasons, the air quality is not one of them. Look at the index on this map:

Air pollution world map

I agree on the ruhr area, and I would not want to live close, but having been in parts of Asia, I sure think the air over here is clean. According to the map, it's actually better then Ecuador or many other places.

I am no expert and looking at your map, you might be right. I wonder why though. For instance Ecuador has no huge industries and has so much nature and dense forests. What would make the air quality there the same as for instance Rotterdam (according to the map they are close), where there is an abundance of industry, the large port, more cars per person, higher population density and so forth?

The place where I found air quality to be absolutely horrible has been Mexico City and it is common knowledge that China has hotspots, which are considered the worst in the world. Anyway, I stand corrected on air quality.