Post: #51

I know no matter what I say here I'm going to get another round of abuse, but I'm posting this conclusion in order to satisfy people's curiosity and that I feel I've indeed learned some red-pill wisdom.

(Note that during this period I was going on a series of first dates so I was not fixated on her. Those dates didn't pan out, but they were also good learning experiences.)

Just to get this out of the way, no I did not earn a flag, nor did I lose my house or wreck my daughter's life or any of those other Nabokov scenarios that I was warned about.

I continued to cultivate the penpal relationship for a while and at one point she seemed receptive to meet me in her town if I were to have visited this summer. Once I found out about the visa-free travel between Ukraine and the rest of Europe I decided to risk it all and suggest that if we got along that she come with me to sightsee through western europe. I just did not want to take an expensive vacation and be holed up in her town, especially if she wound up not putting out, and it seemed like a waste to travel around europe alone and only visit her at the tail end of the trip. She immediately went silent after that, so I must have freaked her out. It was a calculated risk and it just seemed like the right thing to do rather than to keep drawing this out.

I'm a curious person who is interested in knowledge for its own sake. I guess beyond seeing her diddle herself nude I wanted to be an emotional voyeur--to know what her life was really like rather than just the act she put on. I feel like I came as close to figuring her out as anyone would.

I don't want to go into too many details but she wound up sending me pictures and stories about her family, lots of sob stories about the conflict she was having with the madame-like figure who ran the studio. There was a lot there that I have no doubt was truthful. She even told me about her urinary tract infection, which is not something I would expect a woman to do if she were cultivating a "long game".

OK, so that's what happened, but what did I learn?

My takeaway is that there's a toxic codependence between camgirls and the lonely guys who go into the room. There's a combination of silent contempt and mutual identification going on. The contempt from guys is that these women are whores. The contempt from women are that these guys are losers who can't get laid and just want to pay to objectify them. But these things get pushed to the sidelines and sugar-coated as the guys lavish empty validation on the women and the women keep saying thank-you and try to be sort of charming and Geisha like with their smalltalk.

The problem for camgirls as a lifestyle, especially with the timezone difference, is it becomes a social prison. This woman was working a graveyard shift and sleeping all day. This creates an acute form of social isolation to the point of Stockholm syndrome. In other words, since she had little or no opportunity for social interaction in the meatspace, to some extent she became dependent on the guys in the room for a social life. This is what blurs the line between a paying customer and a friend.

At one point I created a new account and went into one of her rooms and said some nice things about her and she said she "liked me" and offered to hook me up on WhatsApp. It was like dejavu. It's not that she was just looking just for money, although that was probably a factor, but that she really does want to develop some friendly closeness, because she can't get it any other way. But she spreads herself across a lot of guys who come and go rather than ever having a close confidant for a long period of time. She's used to the fickleness of guys being infatuated with her for a while and then disappearing, and so she has a weird way of managing her boundaries, which is why she could share such private things with me one moment, then go silent the next. There's always someone else like me who will come around and offer her a shoulder to cry on. The guys probably all just blur together in her head.

In the end I can casually step away from the keyboard. Tipping camgirls is a luxury. She needs to log X number of hours to pay her rent on the apartment. So she's on a treadmill even though she's finishing up what she sees as a worthless degree in mechanical engineering (because of the lack of available jobs).

I tried to come up with scenarios that could improve her lot, things like trying to work out of her apartment and not pay the studio, to leaving Ukraine entirely. She won't leave Ukraine because she wants to be close to her mom. And she just has a generally fatalistic attitude.

It's that fatalism that caused me to start to lose interest in her. If she was just going to allow herself to languish in that situation indefinitely, then, well, it makes me stop thinking of her as an innocent victim and that she's just a little too lazy, too cowardly, too lacking in vision and ambition. I'm not sure how much one can expect from a 22 year old hottie in the first place, but I guess I just wanted to use the age difference to maybe give her food for thought because her mom had completely failed in doing that. Ultimately...not...my...problem.

So anyway, my feeling shifted too much from empathy to pity.

The appeal of going into those rooms is it's a fantasy. You make up whatever back-story you want about these women in order to successfully get off. But having looked behind the curtain, the reality doesn't match the fantasy. At a superficial level, sure, I'd still bang her if I had the chance, but I don't think I could fall in love with her because I can't respect that kind of fatalistic attitude.

Post: #52

(08-22-2017 01:18 PM)questor70 Wrote:  In the end I can casually step away from the keyboard.

Vague. So did you "step away" completely or not?

Post: #53

Your obsession for this girl is unhealthy. She is only indulging you to earn more money for herself. You are willingly participating in a ruse to drain your wallet even further. Meeting in person is a dangerous proposition. Doubtful any man here would agree with you, sympathize, or share in this type of obsession/interaction with a woman.

The reaction from everyone here is one of revulsion, to an attitude, act and ego of someone so remarkably different than most people here. Despite the political discussion, most people came here for self improvement, to meet more and better women, and interact with them in a positive way. Most now are openly discussing how to maintain their LTR's, so its not all about pick up. Discussing unhealthy pornographic obsessions is a total aversion to why most men are here in unity, trying to better themselves.

To be honest no one here cares about the story of the girl. I think we would care about how you will pull yourself out of this obsessive pit you have dug for yourself. If you were to write back and talk about how you are preventing yourself from descending into this abyss again, then we would have something. No, its more of the same bullshit.

Your ego is what seems to be the biggest problem of all. You pity her, but not yourself. Your narcissistic view of other people, while lacking any critical view of yourself, and not offering any sort of self-effacing critical view of your own actions and obsessions, is whats telling most of all.

If your ego is flexible enough to consider that you have a problem, then I would answer these questions below in a reply to the group. If you balk at this, and overreact as if we are "being too hard on you", then I think you should seek a sympathetic ear for this elsewhere.

Take the time to answer these questions back to the group. You either want help or attention. Take the time to answer these questions and maybe we can offer better suggestions to move on from this.

How often do you date?
How do you meet these women?
Do you approach women in real life?
What do you want from women?
How is your life? Calm? Centered? Erratic? Stressful?(many here have been through divorce and extremely sympathetic and helpful to those going through this).
Do you exercise?
Are you out of shape?
What is your body fat percentage?
Do you drink?
Do drugs?
What are your roadblocks with women?
Do you travel?
Do you have friends?
Do you have a high sex drive and high testosterone? It could be why you are obsessed, or need sex a lot. I have high test, naturally, and need to masturbate regularly, if I am not regularly having sex every day or so. Maybe you have a high sex drive and just need more sex, and this is a way of getting off?

Its ok if these answers are embarrassing. Many of us have been there. The board here is about offering help, and seeking it when needed. Instead of giving us these scenarios, and screeds on unhealthy male obsession, identify what it is you need help with, and ask. But first it takes the willingness to be a little tough on ourselves, and the trust that others will offer to help. I think the reactions you have gotten are the fact that your long posts express no amount of self-analysis, self-doubt, humbleness or questions on what to do, or what advice you are seeking. But maybe you dont see anything wrong with this way of interacting with women. If thats the case, you will likely keep getting these negative responses. Maybe you just like the attention.

Post: #54

^

Post: #55

(08-22-2017 01:29 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  Vague. So did you "step away" completely or not?

Yes. Technically she's the one who "stepped away" first because she never replied to my invitation to travel with me through europe. I then took that as a sign that we had reached the end. The invite was a hail-mary pass to try to justify investing more of my time and sympathies. Had I not hit her up like that I would probably have gone silent first. (scroll down for more)

I had already stopped visiting her channel long before (while logged in at least) in order to prove that I wanted to be her friend and not just whack off to her. But the fact of the matter is whether the guys in her room are objectifying her or not, they are commanding her attention for hours on end. So naturally she's going to focus on chatting with them first. So I would hear from her during her off-days or immediately before or after her show, but not that much when she was performing.

It started to dawn on me how one-sided it all was. To try to break out of being a blue-pill emotional tampon I started to share a fair amount of info about myself, pics of my neighborhood, what my passions were. She was always polite in response but never really got truly interested in what was going on in my life. F-buddies are one thing, but with penpals, you need to share common interests. I mean, I had to mostly use Google translate even because her english was so poor, so the language barrier alone was an impediment. I felt like all I could ever do was life-coach her like a surrogate father (and she did compare me to her absent father) and I wasn't getting anything back in return other than the reality-show aspect of her sharing her personal drama.

My efforts to put her on some sort of pathway to self-improvement felt wasted. I setup an online spreadsheet to manage her finances and after the first month she stopped updating it. She never used the camera I bought her. Whether she pawned it off or it's sitting in its box as a keepsake doesn't matter to me. She never used it. I had ideas to try to improve her tips and maybe find a way to work out of her apartment but she was, at best, ambivalent about it. She's afraid the authorities will go after her if she isn't shielded by the "protection" of the "studio".

I tried to explain to her that whether she likes what she does for a living or not, she has to approach it like a business and maximize it otherwise she's just prolonging her misery. At best, she was treading water. She was doing the minimum...or less. Beyond just not working regularly enough, she started developing a habit of leaving her camera streaming and just inexplicably walking away for long stretches. It got to the point where the madame threatened to "fire" her because her earnings weren't meeting spec.

She explained to me she has to portray a character when she's on cam, someone who is always perky and happy and whips off her bra with a grin on her face. But a couple times she broke character and sulked quietly and sniffled on the verge of tears for hours just to satisfy the studio's basic requirement of being on cam for x hours, and the guys would file out of her room because being miserable is a turnoff. Then she'd text me about how hopeless she felt.

She was kind of in this no-man's-land of living hand-to-mouth. She couldn't motivate herself to be really entrepreneurial about her "brand" as a camgirl the way the top ones are, and yet if she had any hopes of ever earning her away out of the business she needed to step it up a notch.

So what few options she had available she demonstrated that she couldn't or wouldn't exercise them. Some captain save-a-ho will probably come around and rescue her eventually. But that's what it's gonna take. I doubt she'll be able to pull herself up by her own bootstraps and be truly self-sufficient and build a career for herself, even with a college degree.

All of that frustration had already built up in me by the time she went silent, so that's why I was able to let it all go.

Post: #56

As long as people are ballbusting other guys then I can pick up the underlying message and see if I can apply it to my life but when the animated gifs start flying my way all you guys succeed in doing is bumming me out. And just admitting that triggers people to bully me further over being sensitive about it, and so the feedback loop starts and before you know it I'll have an 80% warning level all over again. So that just...doesn't....work. If I really need as much inner work as some of you say the best venue for it is a therapist and not Rooshvforum.

At any rate, since I started this thread I decided to finish it.

Post: #57

I appreciate your response and your candor.

I hope, for your sake, you'll address Vaun's points and questions with the same level of consideration....I think hes right on

Seemingly if you'd spend a fraction of the time, energy, and attention (not to mention money) to improving your own life as you have on this girl you'd be much better for it.

Best of luck to you

Post: #58

You can't change how others feel about you, but you do have the power to change yourself for the better. Start with small things - eat better, lift, become more physically attractive, then work on your careers, make more money, have higher social status. Even if this girl does not like you in the end, the better version of yourself will make you more attractive to others.

Post: #59

(03-25-2017 12:17 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  

(03-19-2017 11:20 AM)questor70 Wrote:  She knows I'm old enough to be her father and that I have a teenaged daughter.

I find this simple fact very unnerving.

If your own daughter was 18 or older and you found out she was secretly doing the same exact thing this girl in Ukraine is doing - what course of action would you as a father take, to fix the situation ?

relevant

Post: #60

Quote:If I try to date my peers you're talking chubby haus fraus. If I go a little younger, their biological clocks are pounding for sperm-donors. If I go younger still they'll call me a dirty old man. So it's hard to figure out where I can find an exciting niche.

Sounds exciting to me...

Post: #61

I understand the temptation of banging a hot girl. If that same girl lived in your country, probably she'll be dating (or married to) a rich and young dude.

It's easy to say "dump that scammer" but your hamster will keep spinning...
- What IF there's a 1% chance of banging that 10, taking into account my low SMV? You'll continue to lie to yourself indefinitely.

Don't waste your time trying to improve her prospects. She won't follow your advice, she doesn't want to hear it and if she improves her situation, do you think she'll end up with you?

Go on a diet, hit the gym, trim your head (you mentioned you're balding) and buy a ticket to Thailand or Ukraine. Girls there are more forgiving about your looks and age. They might see you as a ticket out of poverty, but who cares?

Go to where your SMV is higher (I might start a topic with that phrase).

Post: #62

(08-26-2017 09:57 AM)joost Wrote:  I understand the temptation of banging a hot girl. If that same girl lived in your country, probably she'll be dating (or married to) a rich and young dude.

It's easy to say "dump that scammer" but your hamster will keep spinning...
- What IF there's a 1% chance of banging that 10, taking into account my low SMV? You'll continue to lie to yourself indefinitely.

Don't waste your time trying to improve her prospects. She won't follow your advice, she doesn't want to hear it and if she improves her situation, do you think she'll end up with you?

Go on a diet, hit the gym, trim your head (you mentioned you're balding) and buy a ticket to Thailand or Ukraine. Girls there are more forgiving about your looks and age. They might see you as a ticket out of poverty, but who cares?

Go to where your SMV is higher (I might start a topic with that phrase).

His story said this girl was in Ukraine.

Post: #63

I actually enjoyed reading this.

Candidly, I see it all the time. Rich guys who get addicted to strippers, escorts, and gold diggers.

Camwhores are basically the same thing, except you can do it from your couch. Men get enamored by personal interaction, combined with the sluttiness and desire to "white knight" them out of what they believe is a sad existence.

I'd take it as a warning to not get caught up with the hoes of the world. Strippers can be a ton of fun -- I'm friends with many -- just don't think that they're looking for a knight in shining armor to save them. They're looking for cash and cocks to suck.

Post: #64

Thanks for the measured feedback guys. Life is a series of learning experiences.