Post: #226

^It paints a pretty grim picture.

You could almost imagine in 20 years time that one day the NK guards fail to report to the border and after a time SK decides to send in a platoon, only to discover that everyone there is dead.

Post: #227

Well, NK is definitely cleaner than enriched Paris or London...

Post: #228

^^ By definition, a foreign visitor (even a Russian) only gets to see what the regime wants you to see. Pyongyang is reserved for the very most loyal North Koreans who are clean of any perceived crimes or disloyalty, though this can change at any moment (off to the camp you go - all of you and your children's children). Those shown in the photos are elite families lucky enough to have a computer and musical instruments etc. If you think those photos are grim then you will be revolted by the "real" North Korea. No doubt about it. If NK is ever liberated in our lifetimes, I wonder about the scale and horror of the work camps. What will be found?

Post: #229

The reason why North Korea doesn't reform is because they know that if they let up the communist ideology at all, they risk integration with South Korea and the destruction of their power. I imagine that the some 10,000 people (Andrei Lankov's estimate) that make up their elite class would end up in jail or at least completely disenfranchised upon unification. From their perspective, they are expecting nothing less than execution since that's what they would do to the South Korean officials/capitalists/clergy etc. in a heartbeat.

The North Korean economy is now almost entirely run by women who grow and sell food in black markets, or else the country would starve like it did in the 1990s. The men are obligated "work" largely meaningless jobs at state firms entirely so that the Kim regime can pretend that central planning is still the best system. As you can imagine this has made North Korean women more arrogant vis-a-vis their menfolk and hence more promiscuous.

Post: #230

(04-20-2017 02:41 AM)Bushido Wrote:  North Korea started the Korean war by invading the South in 1950 (their government lie that we attacked them first). They have killed both Korean and American soldiers during the "ceasefire." They have kidnapped and killed various innocent citizens from non-combatant countries such as Japan among others. North Korea has been an aggressor over and over again. It's not the same as Libya, Syria or other countries minding their own business. People are trying to make relativist arguments and I'm sorry but downplaying the regime's atrocities is being an apologist. Go tell that stuff to the families of American soldiers who were murdered in Panmunjom. North Korea has a track record of attacking first. It's not theoretical.

I wasn't going to delve into the historical aspects of this conflict, but this particular post is so laughable and delusional that it deserves a proper response.

It also illustrates how the West views terrorist acts committed against them but is completely blind to the horror it inflicts upon others. This dude brings up an incident 40 years ago in which TWO American soldiers were killed in the DMZ.

Let's take a look at what NK had to endure a few decades before that:

Quote:“In the early 1950s, during the Korean War, the US dropped more bombs on North Korea than it had dropped in the entire Pacific theater during World War II. This carpet bombing, which included 32,000 tons of napalm, often deliberately targeted civilian as well as military targets, devastating the country far beyond what was necessary to fight the war. Whole cities were destroyed, with many thousands of innocent civilians killed and many more left homeless and hungry….

According to US journalist Blaine Harden: “Over a period of three years or so, we killed off — what — 20 percent of the population,” Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command during the Korean War, told the Office of Air Force History in 1984. Dean Rusk, a supporter of the war and later secretary of state, said the United States bombed “everything that moved in North Korea, every brick standing on top of another.” After running low on urban targets, U.S. bombers destroyed hydroelectric and irrigation dams in the later stages of the war, flooding farmland and destroying crops……

“On January 3 at 10:30 AM an armada of 82 flying fortresses loosed their death-dealing load on the city of Pyongyang …Hundreds of tons of bombs and incendiary compound were simultaneously dropped throughout the city, causing annihilating fires, the transatlantic barbarians bombed the city with delayed-action high-explosive bombs which exploded at intervals for a whole day making it impossible for the people to come out onto the streets. The entire city has now been burning, enveloped in flames, for two days. By the second day, 7,812 civilians houses had been burnt down. The Americans were well aware that there were no military targets left in Pyongyang…

The number of inhabitants of Pyongyang killed by bomb splinters, burnt alive and suffocated by smoke is incalculable…Some 50,000 inhabitants remain in the city which before the war had a population of 500,000.” (“Americans have forgotten what we did to North Korea“)

But no, tell me more about the Panmunjom massacre....

Post: #231

I might of missed it in this thread.

How good are the US defenses against a nuclear missile launch?

I hear there are layers to the US missile defense strategy. But hitting a bullet with a bullet has not been perfected yet. I figure one of you probably has a good handle on it.

Thanks.

Post: #232

Tiger,

Quote:In the early 1950s, during the Korean War,

This is the relevant part of your quote right here. While terrible, carpet bombing of cities was an accepted part of war at the time. The same thing happened in Dresden and Hiroshima. Japanese soldiers didn't go around murdering Americans after 1945. Germans were also aggrieved but they also didn't take revenge after the war. Acts committed during war are totally different from those during peace or a ceasefire.

The incident I mentioned committed by the North Koreans was cold blooded murder. As were the killings of various South Korean journalists and Japanese citizens they kidnapped off the shores of Japan. If you can't see this then you are either in denial or being obtuse.

Either way, it's futile to compare various "bad acts" with one another. As mentioned above, the Americans slaughtered Japanese civilians en masse during WW2. By today's standards many of those killings would be judged unethical. Does that mean that the fascist Japanese regime shouldn't have been toppled? Of course not.

The fact is North Korea is an aggressive regime that constantly barks at us. They seek confrontation and they will eventually get it.

Got to love the apologists on here. I'm not sure if you guys are commies or contrarians, but you are totally missing the point. If you fall in the former group, then you should buy a one way ticket to Pyongyang and report back. I'm sure they will welcome you into the gulags. Many hardcore believers who made the pilgrimage never made it back.

Post: #233

For anyone with a passing interest in North Korean affairs, here are a couple of English language books you should read:

1. Escape from Camp 14

Probably one of the most disturbing books I have ever read. It is the tale of a boy born inside a North Korean work camp. It's the kind of book you can't unread so be forewarned.

2. The Aquariums of Pyongyang: Ten Years in the North Korean Gulag

This one is another account of the camps. The family featured in it were a prime example of true believers I mentioned above. They gave up a prosperous existence in Japan to join Kim's revolution. At first they were very welcome. Especially as they had a lot of money to offer. Then..well, I think you know the rest.

I'm sure the apologists around here will chime in to say these accounts are fabricated somehow. Well read them and judge for yourself.

Post: #234

Personally, i'm not concerned at all about North Korea's nuclear program.

Any two bit goon can make a nuclear bomb. It takes a room of genuises to make that rocket hit exactly where you want it to.

The people who should be afraid the most are South Korea and parts of Japan. There's absolutely no way NK can hit America without flying their own "enowa gay" over their target and drop it.

Trump wants a historical trophy and I think he'll get it with formally ending the Korean War by eliminating the north entirely.

Post: #235

Reading some of the apologists here confuses me. There is simply nothing that NK as a state provides the world within any measurable eco-system. It is run by a small elite living on the mortal strife of a vastly superior majority. It's a parasite as a nation that would make the world better over night if it was overthrown.

The sole reason it has been allowed to remain was as a buffer zone for China. With their good will now disappearing fast there is little reason NK should be allowed to exist as a sovereign state. If Trump can cut a deal with China to dismantle its current regime then I'd sing his praises as the life saver of the century.

Post: #236

(04-20-2017 08:54 AM)Bushido Wrote:  ^^ By definition, a foreign visitor (even a Russian) only gets to see what the regime wants you to see. Pyongyang is reserved for the very most loyal North Koreans who are clean of any perceived crimes or disloyalty, though this can change at any moment (off to the camp you go - all of you and your children's children). Those shown in the photos are elite families lucky enough to have a computer and musical instruments etc. If you think those photos are grim then you will be revolted by the "real" North Korea. No doubt about it. If NK is ever liberated in our lifetimes, I wonder about the scale and horror of the work camps. What will be found?

There is no evidence of anything you are claiming here other than "rumors" by defectors with zero proof.
Where is this "real" Korea you keep talking about ?
It's been over 60 years that people having been claiming this "hidden" Korea bullshit. It does not exist. Get over it.

All I see is a very poor, but very clean country.

(04-20-2017 05:52 AM)Bushido Wrote:  There are better countries for women, but to claim that South Korea doesn't have high beauty standards is comical.

If you consider widespread plastic surgery, tattoos, gangsta clothing, bitchy attention whoring attitudes, and endless list of demands for husbands as part of high beauty standards then enjoy!

How many of these women in the south are actually going to become mothers and have children ?
75% ?
60% ?
More likley less than 50% with the way society is going there.

(04-20-2017 07:04 AM)MOVSM Wrote:  Here is a four-part series of a travel to NK by a Russian graphics designer. His company works independently now, and his goal is to visit every place on earth. Use google translate to translate the text if you want. Pictures are more interesting. Pay attention to small details in each--a lot of stuff is hidden because open photography of many things is forbidden. Essentially, NK is USSR carried to the point of absurdity.

http://www.tema.ru/travel/north-korea-1/
http://www.tema.ru/travel/north-korea-2/
http://www.tema.ru/travel/north-korea-3/
http://www.tema.ru/travel/north-korea-4/

Excellent link MOVSM.

Where are all the thousands of starving people in dying the streets that everyone's talking about ?
"Hell on earth" sure looks pretty tame to me.
I see more people lying homeless and jobless in the streets in most major US cities.

Best photo of that series from that Russian guy in the DPRK:

Post: #237

The guy who wrote Escape from Camp 14 is one of the prominent defectors. Heres a quick interview with him.

What stuck out to me was that he ratted out his mother and brother for some rice because those are the rules and then watched them both get shot.

Another perspective I hadn't thought of was that because he was born in the camp, he had no perspective on the world. He said that he never thought about escaping because he thought everywhere else was like this also so what was the point. It wasn't until someone who came into the camp told him about some boiled chicken that he decided to escape.

Post: #238

Here's an extensive photoshoot from a dude who entered the DPRK from Vladivostok, Russia by train (the most rare and uncoventional route as most come from China) and was able to take photos for 36 hours without a guide in areas that most tourists have never, ever seen.


http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.ch/2008...ation.html

http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.ch/2008...ng-12.html

http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.ch/2008...ng-22.html

http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.ch/2008...hyang.html

http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.ch/2008...-more.html

http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.ch/2009...e-etc.html

http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.ch/2008...tside.html

And photos from the DMZ from the north side

http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.ch/2008...-zone.html



Hmmmm....this non elite "hidden" Korea of mass tortures, cannibalism and corpses rotting in streets is sure hard to track down !

Maybe cause it doesn't exist.

Just like Saddam Husseins's weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, or Osama Bin Laden's underground bunker computer & weapons cave fortress in Afghanistan, or that single "magic bullet" that flew through 2 bodies 7 seperate times before killing president John F Kennedy.

Post: #239

(04-20-2017 01:16 PM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  The guy who wrote Escape from Camp 14 is one of the prominent defectors. Heres a quick interview with him.

What stuck out to me was that he ratted out his mother and brother for some rice because those are the rules and then watched them both get shot.

Another perspective I hadn't thought of was that because he was born in the camp, he had no perspective on the world. He said that he never thought about escaping because he thought everywhere else was like this also so what was the point. It wasn't until someone who came into the camp told him about some boiled chicken that he decided to escape.

But... but the suicide rates! And um... I went to South Korea and I saw a bunch of frowny people! Don't you understand? FROWNY! PEOPLE! Right there, in South Korea! They were frowning!

HOW IS THAT NOT JUST AS BAD?

Post: #240

Also another thing to keep in mind with the piercing and hair argument is that there is a state sanctioned haircut regulation. You can be put in a reeducation camp for having the wrong haircut.

What do you think they would do if you got a tattoo or piercing?

Post: #241

(04-20-2017 01:23 PM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  Also another thing to keep in mind with the piercing and hair argument is that there is a state sanctioned haircut regulation. You can be put in a reeducation camp for having the wrong haircut.

Proof ?
Evidence ?
DPRK document image ?
RVF datasheet on haircut game in Pyongyang ?

Post: #242

(04-20-2017 01:20 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  Hmmmm....this non elite "hidden" Korea of mass tortures, cannibalism and corpses rotting in streets is sure hard to track down !

Maybe cause it doesn't exist.

Some guy took photos of a museum, some railways, and a Buddhist temple, and therefore no mass tortures are taking place in North Korean prison camps?
You're not even making sense at this point.

Post: #243

Kim Jong-un orders North Korean men to copy his ‘ambitious’ hair-do and limit their locks to a maximum 2cm in length

Prior to the order, these were the accepted haircuts:

Post: #244

(04-20-2017 01:34 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  Some guy took photos of a museum, some railways, and a Buddhist temple, and therefore no mass tortures are taking place in North Korean prison camps?
You're not even making sense at this point.

I'm 100% sure they have prisons in the DPRK.
But how many people are actually in there, and for what crimes, and what is happening to them is not proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Also, a prison does not automatically equal a "concentration camp". A prison needs to have a sizable population and large area to be considered a camp.

As the DPRK is a very poor country, I'm sure they can't afford all the excellent facilities like the USA has at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Post: #245

Have you never heard of potemkin villages?

Post: #246

(04-20-2017 01:34 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 01:20 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  Hmmmm....this non elite "hidden" Korea of mass tortures, cannibalism and corpses rotting in streets is sure hard to track down !

Maybe cause it doesn't exist.

Some guy took photos of a museum, some railways, and a Buddhist temple, and therefore no mass tortures are taking place in North Korean prison camps?
You're not even making sense at this point.

NK is so free of torture, and society is so successful that the government imposed the iron curtain not vertically along the border, but horizontally, upon entire surface of the country. This electric fence with barbed wire is there to protect against navy SEALs, not in any way do dissuade the people from swimming away from the country.

Post: #247

If you're demanding people to provide proof of NK not being one of the most (if not #1) repressive regimes in the world then you've taken leave of all rational thought and are just plugging your ears like a petulant child.

Post: #248

(04-20-2017 01:46 PM)Vicious Wrote:  If you're demanding people to provide proof of NK not being one of the most (if not #1) repressive regimes in the world then you've taken leave of all rational thought and are just plugging your ears like a petulant child.

Aren't you the forum member who repeatedly denies Sweden is being overrun by Muslims and claims everything is great there ?

Post: #249

(04-20-2017 01:06 PM)Vicious Wrote:  If Trump can cut a deal with China to dismantle its current regime then I'd sing his praises as the life saver of the century.

One possible deal would be China to remove the Nork regime and allow South Korea to reunify (making the South Koreans pay for it). In return, the US would remove what remains of our military forces from the Korean peninsula.

China wouldn't have US forces on its borders, the South Koreans would stop a mass of refugee from pouring into China from the North. In the end, the Koreans would buy more Chinese made stuff.

Post: #250

Never made such a claim.

Your desperation is reeking when you've got nothing left but trying to drag post history on completely unrelated topics into the defence of a clear cut dictatorship.

I wonder what a North Korean would make of this thread, you know if they were allowed to use the Internet...