Post: #1

Once I learned about the notion of frame I've been analyzing my frame strength in all my interactions with others. This may sound like a kind of paranoia however it seems to me the reason my interactions with others don't usually leave me with a good feeling is that I have a weak frame and so should have a purpose for each conversation. In other words being more Machiavellian. The purpose should be demonstrating value without seeking approval and preventing the other person from dragging you into their frame. This is because people very often enjoy implying that they have higher value than you. In the words of Heartiste: "Power abhors a vacuum, and so does an undirected woman free to interpret anything you say in any way she sees fit." For me this applies to anybody who is not a close friend of mine.
Here is a simple example. I'm at work microwaving my lunch. The front desk girl comes in and says:

So how are you today?
(with a voice that shows a degree of being annoyed) Alright.
I guess that's better than being dead!

See how fast she tried to bring me down? And this is not an isolated example.

Now here's what I'd say next time:
So how are you today?
You're such a nice colleague; you're concerned about my wellbeing!

The difference between the two is that in the first one I had no purpose in the convo; I let her to frame me but in the second (hypothetical) one I frame her. Now my question is are you guys Machiavellian in your convos with others? Do you have an overarching purpose in your convos and interactions?

Post: #2

(10-22-2017 09:30 AM)duedue Wrote:  Now here's what I'd say next time:
So how are you today?
You're such a nice colleague; you're concerned about my wellbeing!

Instead of this, I would personally say, "What's up?" almost like you didn't hear what she said. It will make her repeat and then whatever you say after that you know she is in your FRAME.

You can then say, "Oh, yeah can't complain." or use double negative, so she can't really make a comeback. Just dismissing everything works for me.
The best way to deal with shit-tests or frame controls is just to not play the mini social battle imo.
Misinterpretations, not hearing people, just that blasé/nonchalant vibe works the best for me.

Usually I use this technique of "not technically lying" to get away from things.
For example, a girl can ask me, "Are you talking to any chicks?" I can just be like, "Well, I am talking to females during day to day interactions in school and work, does it count? Is that what you mean?" Something like this so you are not lying.

You can tell a girl for example, "my intention so far right now with you is to have a good time and have a good conversation." when you are about to pull her and she is resisting a little bit. It's a little bit dark, but not really being dishonest or lying.

Post: #3

(10-22-2017 09:30 AM)duedue Wrote:  The difference between the two is that in the first one I had no purpose in the convo; I let her to frame me but in the second (hypothetical) one I frame her. Now my question is are you guys Machiavellian in your convos with others? Do you have an overarching purpose in your convos and interactions?

Duedue I understand what you're saying but you ain't no Machiavelli if you're thinking about it like this, you don't greet other people, you greet those from your team and you should be known for being the most disagreeable go-to guy of the team: that's the only way to appear non approval seeking and high value.

merriam-webster Wrote:Suggesting the principles of conduct laid down by Machiavelli; specifically marked by cunning, duplicity, or bad faith
EX: He relied on Machiavellian tactics to get elected.

If that's really what you want you have to send a strong bait:
YOU -Ho hey, How are you today ?
HER -Didn't you get that I don't want to talk to you ?!
YOU -Ho ok my bad, I guess that what the others are saying is quite true, don't mind me I won't bother you anymore
HER -What are the others saying ?! (Even if she does not react to this I can assure you that your sentence will cause her to think twice about it)

I think you get the idea...

The greatest subject people care about is them, the fastest way to mess with people is to spread rumors.
Anyway you don't have to be Machiavellian per se to get people interested in what you're saying, just don't start with "How you doin'?" and don't greet people who don't want to talk to you.



PS: Despite it being available on the web I bought the Gervais principle, this is mandatory to understand how to act in the corporate world and toward colleagues

Post: #4

(10-22-2017 05:03 PM)blck Wrote:  The greatest subject people care about is them, the fastest way to mess with people is to spread rumors.
Anyway you don't have to be Machiavellian per se to get people interested in what you're saying, just don't start with "How you doin'?" and don't greet people who don't want to talk to you.

I see what you're saying. However the person who was annoyed was me not her. I should have made it more clear.

Post: #5

I don't know your full situation with this chick. It sounds like you're overthinking this unless you have reason to believe she's reacting to you this way because of something else. I'd just brush it off and not bother engaging with her anymore if she's always giving you terse, one-word responses. Unless she decides she doesn't want to be unfriendly and aloof with coworkers, it's not your responsibility to melt an icy bitch's heart.

You could also call her out on being rude and disrespectful, but I'm not sure how important this job is to you. She would either appreciate you telling her and fix her attitude, but there's also a high risk of her going nuclear and spreading rumors about you, reporting you to your bosses, etc.

Post: #6

Unless you are a high drama person, why complicate your life with battles of will like this?

The fat front desk girl can say I'm a hairy trans for all I care, for me she doesn't exist.

My energy, whether emotional or intellectual, is way too precious to be wasted on sassy comebacks to people who have zero influence on my life (and theirs).

Guys get all horny reading about dark-triad and wants to become Machiavelli or psychopath. It aint what's made out to be and unless you are really a natural at this people can smell it a mile away like you are a used car saleman.

Post: #7

(10-23-2017 04:34 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Unless you are a high drama person, why complicate your life with battles of will like this?

The fat front desk girl can say I'm a hairy trans for all I care, for me she doesn't exist.

My energy, whether emotional or intellectual, is way too precious to be wasted on sassy comebacks to people who have zero influence on my life (and theirs).

Guys get all horny reading about dark-triad and wants to become Machiavelli or psychopath. It aint what's made out to be and unless you are really a natural at this people can smell it a mile away like you are a used car saleman.

This guy is right even if he contradict himself but that's a different type of game:

(10-04-2017 10:15 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(10-04-2017 09:37 AM)Easy_C Wrote:  wise points there I think. #1 is harder for people to get: being able to claim credit and deflect blame is a key skill if you want to rise in the corporate world.

If you're really not confident in some work: have one of them send the completed files over to the person it's supposed to get to. That way the most recent fingerprints on it are not yours. Do this more often with low visibility documents (like internal audit forms) where there's downside from screwing it up but no upside to getting it right

I think most guys get this on an intelectual level, but doing it itself is hard. How can you NOT feel cheap, dirty and dishonorable pulling tricks like this?

All is fair in love and war etc. But spending half of your time doing stuff that makes you hate yourself isn't easy for most guys.

I would suggest trying to really compartmentalize your work life from your identity or your personal life. You must learn to be the bitchy ass kisser at work and see yourself soar through the ranks, yet still be the masculine man as soon as you step out of the office.

So instead of trying to navigate into office politics because that's high level drama, learn to lick asses clean and once out of the office feel good about yourself because what is done in the office stay in the office.

Post: #8

Dude you are thinking way too hard about shit that doesn't matter. She wasn't trying to bring you down, she was making a corny joke. You sound insufferable. Based off this and other threads you need to take a hard look at yourself and think how you can be a more positive person.

Post: #9

@blck: the two don't contradict at all.

On one hand, being Machiavellian first mean that you pick and choose your battles, or better, recognizing if there was even a battle in the first place. The Count of Bordeaux might care about what the other counts are planning, but could give two shits about what the commoners are saying about him. As long as they dont ask for cakes...

On the other hand, being Machiavellian must be somewhat natural, otherwise people see through your shit easily. Take half of the spam mails in your inbox. Even if you take out the subject line, how many of them read like they come from the exact same book, whether they are trying to sell you handsoap or RVF t-shirts?

This is why office politics suck so much because it's a bunch of shallow ass statemen-wannabes trying to play petty politics with other shallow ass statemen-wannabes. They obsess over details like the OP, on how you dress each day, how your comments to Tiffany is mean, etc. These little silly dramas are what you find plenty in a highschool locker room yet it gives grown-ass drone office workers such a high adrenaline boost. Such is the pitiful reality.

If anything, being an ass-kisser at work has nothing to do with being Machiavellian because it's so easy. Bring donuts to work every now and then, give a few compliments on random stuffs j, shut the fuck up around your co-worker, don't do too much nor too little work. It work because the people you are dealing with are the 90% shallow dumb part of the population.

In contrast, when your maneuvers involve millions $ deals and when a dinner can decide your business plan for the next 10 years, that's when you need to be Machiavellian. I worked briefly as an intern at a French oligarch's headquarters in France and most of the stuff I see make me shit my pants because of the responsibilities involved, I was glad I was just an intern. And that's only the stuffs visible to interns, not the stuff that go behind the doors.

You try to bring your petty cubicle office "Machiavellian" politics to a high stake table, the bosses there who are used to read people with the first glance can cut through your bullshit immediately and you won't even have a second chance. My boss was pretty notorious for telling both investees and partners to "get the fuck out of this room, you don't know what you are talking about" when he smell bullshit. Neither him nor his managers give a shit about their crying/bitching because this is fuck you money they are dealing. True princes / businessmen dont have time to play people's petty game

It's actually ironic, because my sister who worked for him is a straight talker, no-nonsense type who thinks on her feet with a fiery temper. She rises very quickly through the ranks while other "schemers" get ousted sooner or later. Because she is so straightforward he prefers her to all the ass-kissers he has to deal with.

"When they are expecting treachery, give them honesty" I think that's part of the 48 laws of power.

Post: #10

(10-22-2017 06:12 PM)duedue Wrote:  I see what you're saying. However the person who was annoyed was me not her. I should have made it more clear.

If I asked you that and you responded annoyed then don't expect my response to be that positive either. I would have literally responded with "Well, at least you're still breathing" and then moved on. So what's the fuzz about, you get what you give, it's not rocket science.

Post: #11

I always tell women my deepest darkest plans to rule the world through complex evil machinations.

Post: #12

Monologuing about how dark triad alpha I am is second only to my stamp collection in terms of the scope of my life.

Post: #13

This shit is fucking autistic.

Quote:This may sound like a kind of paranoia however it seems to me the reason my interactions with others don't usually leave me with a good feeling is that I have a weak frame and so should have a purpose for each conversation. In other words being more Machiavellian.

Wrong. Absolutely 100 percent wrong. The exact opposite is true; you don't feel good about your interactions with others because it's you who's trying to be extractive of others and I can tell with one hundred percent certainty that everyone you interact with knows it.

People are far better at cold reading your intent than you could possibly think.

(that is a quote from the Beyond Borders blog entry that I've linked to others before. I would paste it here again because it's exactly what you need to hear, but it's massive)

What I'm gleaning from your post is that you are pissed off at the world. It's ok, we all are at some point in our lives. So to cope with this you are taking the attitude that because the world doesn't care about you (at least in your perception) you shouldn't care about it. Or the people you interact with.


What did you expect your co worker to say? Do you honestly expect everyone to forgo using social common sense in the interest of 'keepin it real'? When someone asks "how are you?" if you honestly think "why are they asking me they don't really CARE ABOUT ME!" Then you need to resolve some of those emotional issues, and start with that before you can move on to ACTUALLY BEING SOCIALLY VALUABLE.

People hate needy and emotionally unstable men.

I'm not saying you should be "beta" and be overly nice to everyone. But your mistaken if you think this nuerotic bullshit "machiavellian" crap your trying to pull is

1. Fooling anyone
2. Making you look like something other than a sperg

You're trying to reverse engineer social value, without actually producing value.

Stop trying to figure out life and start living it.

Post: #14

(10-28-2017 07:35 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  I'm not saying you should be "beta" and be overly nice to everyone. But your mistaken if you think this nuerotic bullshit "machiavellian" crap your trying to pull is

1. Fooling anyone
2. Making you look like something other than a sperg

You're trying to reverse engineer social value, without actually producing value.

Stop trying to figure out life and start living it.

How do you produce social value?

Post: #15

(10-28-2017 07:35 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  This shit is fucking autistic.

Quote:This may sound like a kind of paranoia however it seems to me the reason my interactions with others don't usually leave me with a good feeling is that I have a weak frame and so should have a purpose for each conversation. In other words being more Machiavellian.

Wrong. Absolutely 100 percent wrong. The exact opposite is true; you don't feel good about your interactions with others because it's you who's trying to be extractive of others and I can tell with one hundred percent certainty that everyone you interact with knows it.

People are far better at cold reading your intent than you could possibly think.

(that is a quote from the Beyond Borders blog entry that I've linked to others before. I would paste it here again because it's exactly what you need to hear, but it's massive)

What I'm gleaning from your post is that you are pissed off at the world. It's ok, we all are at some point in our lives. So to cope with this you are taking the attitude that because the world doesn't care about you (at least in your perception) you shouldn't care about it. Or the people you interact with.


What did you expect your co worker to say? Do you honestly expect everyone to forgo using social common sense in the interest of 'keepin it real'? When someone asks "how are you?" if you honestly think "why are they asking me they don't really CARE ABOUT ME!" Then you need to resolve some of those emotional issues, and start with that before you can move on to ACTUALLY BEING SOCIALLY VALUABLE.

People hate needy and emotionally unstable men.

I'm not saying you should be "beta" and be overly nice to everyone. But your mistaken if you think this nuerotic bullshit "machiavellian" crap your trying to pull is

1. Fooling anyone
2. Making you look like something other than a sperg

You're trying to reverse engineer social value, without actually producing value.

Stop trying to figure out life and start living it.

In a sense what you say is not very different from what I thought. My default mode appears to be what you call extractive. Like a lost puppy so to speak. What I mean by being Machiavellian is to control this tendency; the puppy understanding that he is not really lost.

"You're trying to reverse engineer social value, without actually producing value." I call it social capital and like monetary capital, one can't make more unless one has some already, unless one learns to hustle (game). One thing I find funny is guys with good game preaching the "be yourself" mantra. Game IS reverse engineering social value until the value becomes a part of who you are. The Mystery Method is all about reverse engineering social value. Roosh at the beginning of Bang tells the story of a girl he was attracted to in college. She wasn't responding to his moves so he started ignoring her and

"But then something interesting happened. She started to make a strong effort to gain my attention and favor. [...] That was the first time I understood that changing my behavior could affect how girls reacted to me."

What he did there was reverse engineering social value; acting like a guy with options; until he became a guy with options.


OK I'm not saying any kind of shit that someone like me comes up with in his journey is worthwhile. I'm saying something like "Stop trying to figure out life and start living it." is like repeating the same mistakes and expecting a different outcome.

Post: #16

Quote:How do you produce social value?

You can start from the position that no man has any inherent value when it comes right down to it. It's all about what you have to offer. You aren't a woman, you can't go around selling a sob story that people will eat up because they just want to plant one in your womb. Understand this and accept it for what it is.

You must first accept that you have to bring something to the table before you can figure out what it is you can bring to the table. I believe everyone has something to offer even if they don't know what it is yet.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote: One thing I find funny is guys with good game preaching the "be yourself" mantra.

I'm going to go against the grain bigly here and say that telling a noob to 'be himself' isn't bad advice.

I know, I'm going after a sacred cow, but bear with me.

Sure, you could tell some kid with no game to 'be machiavellian!' 'be alpha!' 'don't be beta!' and that chicks dig assholes, but the end result usually is something like your original post.

All the above presupposes that game and the pursuit of pussy is about the end result. About pussy itself.

I'm saying it isn't.

That kind of advice also makes the assumption that women are too dumb to figure out when you're faking. They aren't, and will sniff out that bullshit if it's coming from some dweeb who just read his first Heartiste article. If women are good at one thing, it's screening out paper alpha bullshit.


You are not on the path to self mastery and the original post makes that crystal clear.


This is why you feel the need to "get" from others that which you cannot find in yourself.


I get it, "being yourself" is the lame advice your beta uncle would give you to get chicks, right? And it doesn't work, at least not when you're some dorky inexperienced 19 year old.

But how else is that dorky 19 year old ever going to test his game, find his leaks, an audit his character if he's doing nothing but trying to be someone else?

Only through being yourself can you find ways to be an ATTRACTIVE VERSION of yourself.

I don't even need to ask how well this 'machiavellian' bullshit is working out for you; the original post speaks for itself.

You are on about this dark triad machiavellian shit because some fucking dork blogger planted that shit in your head.

Quote:. Game IS reverse engineering social value until the value becomes a part of who you are. The Mystery Method is all about reverse engineering social value

I'm not saying there isn't ways to effectively use machiavellian tactics to get what you want. Of course there is. But you are looking at is as an overall strategy rather than just one small tool to have in your kit.

For example (and this is how i see being 'machiavellian' can be beneficial) let's say there's someone I'm talking to whom I know has information I want or need. I want them to disclose whatever that information is to me. So rather than ask I'll steer the conversation in the direction to where I know they will bring it up or volunteer pieces of information.

That's machiavellian. God I feel autistic just saying that word.

Quote:"But then something interesting happened. She started to make a strong effort to gain my attention and favor. [...] That was the first time I understood that changing my behavior could affect how girls reacted to me."

What he did there was reverse engineering social value; acting like a guy with options; until he became a guy with options.

We aren't really in disagreement there. I had to do the same thing and learn the same lessons along the way that Roosh did and that we all did. So where are you along that path? Presumably you are game aware, so what's stopping you from becoming a guy with options?

Quote:OK I'm not saying any kind of shit that someone like me comes up with in his journey is worthwhile. I'm saying something like "Stop trying to figure out life and start living it." is like repeating the same mistakes and expecting a different outcome.

Is that preferable to spending more time posting shit than going out and trying to actually win? Which do you think is going to actually pay off for you in the long run?

You have to go out and try before you can reflect.

Post: #17

If you aren't introducing yourself as a dark triad alpha, you're doing it wrong.

Post: #18

(10-29-2017 12:41 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  

Quote:How do you produce social value?

You can start from the position that no man has any inherent value when it comes right down to it. It's all about what you have to offer. You aren't a woman, you can't go around selling a sob story that people will eat up because they just want to plant one in your womb. Understand this and accept it for what it is.
You must first accept that you have to bring something to the table before you can figure out what it is you can bring to the table. I believe everyone has something to offer even if they don't know what it is yet.

Pardon the 'tism, but I can't figure out the metaphor. What do you mean, "bring to the table"?
(By the way, when do you use self-deprecation in social interactions? Should you ever use it?)

Post: #19

Some name calling here but still Interesting input.

(10-29-2017 12:41 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  When someone asks "how are you?" if you honestly think "why are they asking me they don't really CARE ABOUT ME!" Then you need to resolve some of those emotional issues,

It's actually the other way around. I don't care about most of my colleagues but still have to be polite with them and I hate that. The fat and overly confident women I'd rather not even see. Let me put it this way: I'm pretty arrogant but for reasons I don't quite understand I act nice. Maybe a form of approval seeking or it may result from my chronic fatigue problem.

(10-29-2017 12:41 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:   This is why you feel the need to "get" from others that which you cannot find in yourself.

So is anything of one's self left if you subtract all the others? I mean without all the people close to you do you still not need to "get" something from others? (Think about it.)

(10-29-2017 12:41 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:   You are not on the path to self mastery and the original post makes that crystal clear.

I'm reading the Gorilla Mindset and articles on Masculine Development.

Post: #20

(10-29-2017 05:51 PM)RiderKnight Wrote:  What do you mean, "bring to the table"?

My interepretation of it is "lifestyle".

I've come to believe that most women view dating merely as entertainment.

Since women tend to not have hobbies, dating IS their hobby. It's what gets them out of the house on the weekend.

So no matter what they say dating represents, it's not love, intimacy, romance. It's entertainment. You are inviting them into your life so they can share in your "adventures". Women are dependent on men to spice up their life. When we're with a woman we just need some privacy and a soft bed and it's all good. But women want more. It's up to us to figure out how to craft a lifestyle and sell it because most women aren't content with just netflix and chill.