Post: #1

Spent the last two months training with an IFBB pro superheavy (I'm not gonna name him but he is an absolute monster, and just insanely strong)and picked up a few things after being coached by him that I would like to share with you guys.

1. Time under tension is key. Most of our exercises were in the 12-15 rep range with 4 count negatives. This forced me to use a far lower weight, but the pain factor was insane. On the plus side, this is much easier on the joints and tendons.

2. Progressive resistance. Even though we lowered my working weights considerably, we still work to add weight and reps when we can.

3. Exercise selection. I'm a big fan of the big 3 lifts for mass, but we did back away from these to an extent. The reason being that while they produce systemic strength, you can't take an individual muscle group to failure. For instance on squats, you typically will not drive the quadriceps to muscular failure. You'll usually just run out of overall energy/oxygen before you hit failure. So we incorporated some different movements, as well as pre-exhaustion techniques so we could control which muscles fail first. For instance for legs my workout might be...

Lying leg curls
Leg press
Leg extension
Squats done in squat shoes or with plates under the heel.

By the time you hit squats, the quads will fail first, which if you're trying to build your quads is a great thing.

4. Take the muscle to failure once per workout. Typically we would have several sets to accumulate volume, as well as one set that was either a rest pause set or a drop set, to take the muscle to failure. The key here is that straight sets are just taken to your pain threshold, whereas actual failure sets are taken as close to muscular failure as you can get by utilizing pre exhausts, rest pause sets, drop sets, partials, ect... Your ability to tolerate pain will be the deciding factor here.


5. Total volume was around 10-12 sets per muscle per week. So usually that would be 3-4 exercises per group, with 3-4 sets. The thing is that each of these sets were quite long given the rep count and time under tension.

6. The split was a typical bro split with a chest day, leg day, back day, arm day, ect... Each group was getting hit once per week.

7. Food was mainly from steak, beef, chicken, eggs, rice, bread, potatoes. Typically I'm eating 2lbs of meat and 6 whole eggs per day for protein. There is one shake, which was 3 scoops of whey and 3 tablesp oons peanut butter. Water was around 8 liters per day.

Post: #2

Thanks for sharing mate. Much appreciated.

Post: #3

Thanks for share. For more info, the book below is excellent and the workouts/concepts inside take alot of the concepts you listed to the extreme:

   

I think this style of HIT benefits advanced lifters with serious bodybuilding fitness goals the most. Excellent form, true 100% all-out effort, and dedication to proper rest are very important concepts that alot of lifters just can't commit to. A memorable quote from the book:

"If you've never puked from a set of biceps curls, you don't know what all out effort is."

Post: #4

Nice info Steelex. Thanks for the remainder on the slow count negatives. That's something I need to incorporate in every set and not give it up once I start getting tired. Curious as to the other body parts you incorporated pre-exhaustion work?

Post: #5

Disagree with 3. I think making the "big 3" lifts (which depletes you of oxygen the most) first is more beneficial on the cns. Basically your saying to fail on the big 3 and leave them last in the workout, or am I missing something. Doing say squats first and leaving leg extensions last to fail on is what I prefer. I had workouts where I could not finish my last set late in the week which I believe was due to leaving the big 3 last.

Everything else I personally been incorporating for years. Tut (time under tension) is most important in my opionion.

Im interested how's your break or rest time? Meaning how much time do you take off in a 12 week span of training? I've increased my time off 2 years ago and noticed a positive diffrence with my lifts.

Post: #6

Way too much protein man. That's got to be over 400 grams including carb/fat sources. No need to make your organs work that hard. I think the training advice was pretty solid though.

Post: #7

(05-19-2018 09:24 PM)Razor Beast Wrote:  Way too much protein man. That's got to be over 400 grams including carb/fat sources. No need to make your organs work that hard. I think the training advice was pretty solid though.

Are you a dietitian man? There's a reason Steelex is a professional trainer and you have 10+ neutrals.

Post: #8

2lb of red meat a day is tough on the digestive system...not good for your health over an extended period of time imo.

Post: #9

(05-19-2018 11:05 PM)wi30 Wrote:  

(05-19-2018 09:24 PM)Razor Beast Wrote:  Way too much protein man. That's got to be over 400 grams including carb/fat sources. No need to make your organs work that hard. I think the training advice was pretty solid though.

Are you a dietitian man? There's a reason Steelex is a professional trainer and you have 10+ neutrals.

Do I need to be a dietician to give common knowledge to correct someone who should apparently know better according to you? Your reply shows a complete and utter disregard for the amount of broscience the bodybuilding community spreads. Go ahead and wreck your organs. Hopefully regular people who are normal gym goers will read what I wrote, do research on their own to determine an appropriate amount of protein they should be consuming, and once that research is completed realize the absurdity in anyone advocating consuming over 400 grams of protein daily. Way to show that the rep system is a joke once you get past the top 10-15 posters on this site.

Post: #10

Steelex is on roids. Roids increase your bodies ability to synthesize testosterone. He's not eating 400g of protein as a natty beginner lifter. If you are on lots of gear you need lots of protein. I thought this was common knowledge.

Post: #11

(05-20-2018 01:58 AM)Fortis Wrote:  Steelex is on roids. Roids increase your bodies ability to synthesize testosterone. He's not eating 400g of protein as a natty beginner lifter. If you are on lots of gear you need lots of protein. I thought this was common knowledge.

Assuming you have a balanced diet with protein rich foods there's no need to add in absurd amount of protein. It's total broscience. Even for enhanced lifters. The bodybuilding industry promotes very high protein diets to sell supplements. Not surprisingly, many bodybuilding competitors happen to own supplement companies. Go figure. I'll stand by the research of those who don't have a direct financial incentive to sell me something.

Post: #12

Going way back, I remember reading a Q & A in one of the magazines with Mike Christian, who was consuming something like this much protein on a daily basis. The article contained a footnote from the magazine/editor, stating that this was OTT, and recommended a lower consumption.

Going back even further, Serge Nubret was quoted as consuming up to 7lbs of red meat a day. How he managed that is beyond me.

Post: #13

People freaking out about OP's protein consumption:

Steelex is around 250+ last I checked.

2 lbs of meat = ~240 pro
6 eggs = 36 pro
3 Tbsp of PB = 12 pro
3 scoops whey powder = ~60 pro (depending on brand/serve size)

348 grams of protein. This works out to ~1.4 grams of protein per pound of body weight (again assuming 250 lbs). The typical standard for protein consumption while training for growth is ~1.5 grams/pound body weight. Dude is right there. Chill.

As for OP: good stuff man. I'd like to expand on #3 (this is also @S3K2)

There is a great training video with Kai Greene where he talks about how he is a body builder and not a weight lifter. He says "I'll never be a weight lifter" and goes on to say that as a body builder, he is focused on stretching and contracting his muscle to stimulate growth, not moving weight.

This is an important distinction because while the "big 3" are the gold standard for strength movements, they are not the best at building muscle size exactly. You are not going to get a bigger chest or triceps from bench as you would with pec fly's and tricep extensions. You are not going to get bigger quads from squat as you would with a leg press. You are not going to get a bigger back with deadlift as you would right rows. Etc.

When training for size and aesthetics the bench, squat, and deadlift are treated as accessories in the arsenal to attack the muscles groups. And I also fully understand and agree with what Steelex is saying about pre-fatigue prior to those lifts. In order to properly isolate the muscles you want to train you need to fire them up before you hit a compound movement so that those muscles will fail first.

Good stuff here and mirrors a lot of things I've seen and read about body building training.

Post: #14

(05-20-2018 02:26 AM)Razor Beast Wrote:  

(05-20-2018 01:58 AM)Fortis Wrote:  Steelex is on roids. Roids increase your bodies ability to synthesize testosterone. He's not eating 400g of protein as a natty beginner lifter. If you are on lots of gear you need lots of protein. I thought this was common knowledge.

Assuming you have a balanced diet with protein rich foods there's no need to add in absurd amount of protein. It's total broscience. Even for enhanced lifters. The bodybuilding industry promotes very high protein diets to sell supplements. Not surprisingly, many bodybuilding competitors happen to own supplement companies. Go figure. I'll stand by the research of those who don't have a direct financial incentive to sell me something.

I could probably guess your bench press within about 10% just by reading this.

Post: #15

@general stalin:
I completely understand and agree concerning isolation techniques and the diffrences between bb's and wl's. I'm a bb myself. However, If you have high intensity while training (which I always do)
-out of breath after every set
-slight nausea at times
-dizzyness
Etc
Theres going to be times when you cannot complete the set (speaking of the big 3) you normally could complete if you kept them first due to cns shutdown which starts to peak between 60-75mins in. I dont know about you but during this time i'm shaking like a leaf. Now trying to add a compound movement? Forget about it. Though the big 3 is not as important to a bb as it is to a wl you are still selling yourself short by not completeing the workout as a whole. That is my point. I'm not willing to decrease intensity to complete the big 3 last. I have very little time for extra cardio as it is hence why I need that high intensity every workout to help maintain single digit bf %.

Post: #16

Yea man no workout practices are etched in stone and different techniques work for different people. Hell Ronnie Coleman is the greatest body builder of all time (going by Olympia wins) and that dude lifted mega heavy and mega intense all the time. Most body builders don't workout that way but it worked for him. Sounds like that might be sort of your style too with going heavy and hard at compound lifts at the beginning of your workout sort of powerlifting style.

Post: #17

(05-22-2018 11:26 AM)S3K2 Wrote:  I'm not willing to decrease intensity to complete the big 3 last.

Nowhere does it say to decrease intensity.

You should be doing the lifts before the big 3 with full intensity. You are not "saving" energy for the big 3 later. You are going all out every exercise. Yes this means the weights you use for the compound lifts at the end will be less, but that doesn't meant you aren't pushing yourself for each and every excercise including the big 3.

Unless if I am misunderstanding you.

Post: #18

The thing is also that when Steelex says "lower the weight" he might be working with weights that are heavy to normal dudes.

Like, when you read about how Arnold had light days, add 100-150 pounds to whatever you are working with and that is conceivably a light day for a professional bodybuilder. You have to consider things in context.

Also, you can still work with a lighter weight and do a very high-intensity workout out. I like to do 2 seconds up and 4 seconds down on workouts. You can make a 100-pound barbell feel like 200+ pounds if you change up the speed at which you work. I do a lot of sets and reps for chest with light weight and my chest has never been wider. Meanwhile, When I was always going heavy for chest I got stronger but I wasn't really growing.

Post: #19

Myself, Ronnie and Martin Berkhan all have similar training regimens. The big 3 builds the most amount of solid mass compared to isolation techniques. (I got most of my bicep mass from weighted chin-ups for an example.)

@Repo Sounds like you have no idea what I mean by full intensity. My heart rate is between 85%-95% (for me that's 157 BPM -176 BPM) For approximately 75 minutes straight. This is calculated via fitbit (yes they can be inaccurate). If my heart rate dips below 160 I start my next set. Try training as so for yourself for just one session. Guarantee you it will be physically impossible to complete a compound movement between the 60-75 min mark when your finishing up.
Training as so you most defiantly want to be your strongest when doing the big 3.

@RazorBeast This is for you. Refutes your opinoion on long term high protein diets.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5078648/

Post: #20

Is that heart rate thing a bodybuilding thing or a powerlifting thing? I've worked out with both and none ever track their heart rates, except when doing cardio. What exactly is the goal with keeping it up this high? To someone who isn't well read on it, it doesnt sound like an optimal way to build muscle.

Post: #21

I think it depends. There are numerous respected bodybuilders who did not worship the big three and were still yoked as fuck.

I do not believe that deadlift is a better overall back builder than barbell rows, chin ups, or heavy single arm rows. I have seen countless videos of 150-160 pound DYEL types pulling 500 pounds on deadlift. My deadlift is my best lift but my back didn't really see growth until I started doing heavy rows very often.

I'm also not convinced that flat bench is a better chest movement than dips until you get to seriously high poundages.

I think squats are one of the best leg movements, but it would not surprise me if there were other exercises that do more for your quads than squats. Personally, I have found that super slow leg press legs me really dig into the fibers in a way that I have not been able to emulate by squatting heavier and heavier weight.

If you're talking about measurements of strength then I agree, but if we're talking building muscle? I'm not so sure that the big three are the last word on this.

Post: #22

Heavy weights and low reps on the big 3 are going to add a density to your muscles that isolation exercises won't but isolation will add size that heavy weights and low reps won't. They both have their uses and you can implement both.

Post: #23

From what I’ve read, research shows that 4-6 reps is the best range for *natural* trainees. Anyone claim otherwise who is not using pharmaceutical enhancement?

Post: #24

(05-26-2018 07:29 AM)realologist Wrote:  Heavy weights and low reps on the big 3 are going to add a density to your muscles that isolation exercises won't but isolation will add size that heavy weights and low reps won't. They both have their uses and you can implement both.

Agreed. I followed the “focus on the compounds to get big” advice for a while, which has some truth to it. But my biceps/triceps didn’t start making really good progress until I started adding heavy volume on isolation exercises. I still do weighted chins and whatnot, but I’m not doing it for size.

Post: #25

I'll answer a few questions...

Yes, the protein intake is high. Yes, it can be stressful on the digestive system. I take digestive enzymes and probiotics, and drink a lot of water as well. The end result is more growth, and faster recovery. I know what the studies say, but how many of those studies were done on somebody lifting very heavy and taking drugs? Zero. They're not out there at Harvard trying to figure out how to build a bigger bodybuilder.

Yes, sometimes the compound movements are coming last. It's done that way so we can fail because of the targeted muscle groups. I.e on bench we fail at the pec, not the shoulder, so that way we maximally stimulate the muscle we want to grow...

However.... ITS STILL A COMPOUND LIFT. The other muscles are still being stimulated, just not to the same extent as the targeted ones. At the end of the day you end up using a lighter weight on that compound than you normally would, but the muscle is hit more.

Also, there is no decreasing intensity. You are still chasing ever higher poundages within the cadence and form of your workout.

If I do hamstring curls, split squats, leg extensions, and then barbell squats at the end, the poundage is lower, but it's actually harder, and there is more pain and blood in the quadricep. It's one thing to finish a set of squats with your eyes blood shot and about to black out from lack of oxygen, and another to fail because your quads are so full of blood and pain that they feel like they might rip.