Post: #1

My first four first-dates after deciding to embark on mass dating game, when I was totally clueless, were successful. They all resulted in second dates and I at least made out with every one of those girls.

Since then, I've lifted & gotten bigger, improved my dress, improved my hairstyle, gotten a high-paying job, moved out of my parents' house, and picked up a ton more game experience. And hardly any of my first-dates are remotely successful anymore. Even the ones that do land me another date almost always come to an abrupt halt when I make my move to get the chick back to my place.

And I think I have my diagnosis: I don't care enough. I mean, I care tremendously about my success with women on a general level. But individually, I've started seeing each girl as little more than a chore to be conquered. As I become more devoted to hard work and self-improvement, I find it increasingly difficult to feel that gut-level connection to modern girls who mostly concern themselves with what they're going to binge-watch next on Netflix. That excited, nervous first-date feeling I used to get has now been replaced with pure dread that I'll have to find a way to entertain some vapid girl with hundreds of Tinder suitors eagerly waiting for their chance should I not be exciting enough. I think everyone here knows that when the raw passion and excitement isn't there, effective gaming becomes nearly impossible.

Am I alone in feeling this way, or has anyone else been stuck in a similar rut? If so, how did you change your mindset and get out of it?

Post: #2

Meet better women that you are more attracted to so you are better motivated to spit good game out.

Post: #3

you also might have priced yourself out of the market by moving into the boyfriend material category by oldies improvements you speak of

Post: #4

If you're feeling this way then it is obviously coming out in your body language and the vibe you're giving off. Girls have a sixth sense for this. They can tell when you're into them and when you aren't.

Post: #5

Shooting too low.

WIA

Post: #6

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  Am I alone in feeling this way, or has anyone else been stuck in a similar rut? If so, how did you change your mindset and get out of it?

Yes, I have, so I completely understand.

I changed my mindset and got out of it, literally, and by "it," I mean I got out of America.

I moved to Asia.

And now that I'm back, I'm figuring out how I can move abroad again, for an even longer time period.

Post: #7

I think you've already half-answered your questions. You need to address the vapidity problem.

In my experience, intelligence (and personality as an extension of that) is an important part of sexual attraction. Most guys say 'all that matters is how they look', but I have not found this to be the case. I've been on dates, or have been hanging out with girls who are objectively beautiful, and simply not given a shit. Guys normally refer to this as 'not having a connection', but this phrase typically means 'her non-looks attributes are not sexually attractive', or in some cases that those attributes are invisible, due to language barriers etc. Also, in some situations a girl is objectively beautiful, but not 'your type of beautiful' (e.g. she might be a slim pretty girl but you strongly prefer girls with big round butts). In this situation, you simply are not going to successfully push it forward to sex, because you don't execute typical courtship behaviours smoothly, as a result of your lack of visceral sexual attraction.

For instance, you may not be touching in the right doses at the right times, or you won't be doing enough eye contact, or you won't be engaging her fully in courtship-orientated conversation. Kind of like eating when you're not hungry - it's a chore and you won't do it as efficiently as when you are ravenous. This leads to situations where you may objectively meet her attractiveness thresholds, but you won't end up in her bed anyway.

The solution is to filter better, and to have a better understanding of what you find attractive. For instance, you may be meeting girls through tinder or at night venues. These places filter through a certain type of girl more than others. If you were to actively search out places where intelligent girls tend to go, or to 'flatten' your filter (such as via daygame - every girl of every type leaves her house at some point), you will have more success with filtering out vapidity. Also take a note of everything that does turn you on. For instance, I noticed that girls that are too small or scrawny precipitously reduce my attraction for them, whereas a girl with a better size or greater voluptuousness will get me horny much easier even if she isn't as pretty.

Post: #8

Phoenix-

I'm glad you bring that up. I totally agree that personality/intelligence is under-rated in the manosphere, and I'm actually extremely selective when it comes to intelligence; far more than I am about looks. The majority of my dates are now med students and the like. Yet I STILL find them to be somewhat vapid and impossible to connect with. Even smarter girls generally lack the propensity to be playful, fun, unique, or remotely interesting. During periods when I'm going on dates frequently, I get this oddly giddy feeling whenever I have a conversation with a guy, because it's such an overwhelming contrast. I swear guys say more funny or insightful things in a minute of conversation than most girls do in an entire year.

I completely understand the suggestions to be more selective and only date girls that I can get excited about, but the problem is if I did that, I would go months in between dates (It doesn't help that I can't be attracted to a girl who's even a little fat).

I assume you guys aren't consistently finding 'unicorns' who are cute, fun, and interesting. I assume you can all relate to being peppered with heinously boring questions like "so what do you like to do in your spare time?" How do you power through this shit and at least create the illusion that there's some kind of connection?

Post: #9

I'm encountering a similar phenomena when I get a date with a woman under 30. Creating the excitement to get the first date is relatively easy but keeping that excitement going is tough. I usually get a quick make out but little else. I'm not sure how my calibration is off but the modern under 30 American woman often has a kind of attention deficit disorder and can seem passionless. This hurts me because one of my strongest seduction skills is building passion. Maybe I am just not hitting the right buttons for girls in their 20s. Or, maybe I am on a level of sensuality that American 24 year olds cannot handle. Or, maybe I am less outcome independent with under 30s because I have had limited success in this age range.

In contrast, when I go out with woman over 30 the results are awesome. I've had a few over 30s women tell me that they were wet within the the first 1/2 hour of meeting me, just from light touch and our deep, sensual conversation. I don't keep track of statistics but I have converted with well over 50% of women over 30 since I started with seduction a year ago.

Post: #10

*prays that this is not a troll post*

This might be the first obviously intermediate/advanced game post this board has seen in a bit.

Hopefully it won't be awash in Game 101 advice, maybe we can get to something that goes to the core of the issue.

WIA

Post: #11

I think there is an interaction of factors.

Age difference is one dividing factor. If one is over 40 (or heaven forbid 50) you are less interested in what a 23 year old is trying to think, to the degree that she thinks.

She has no capability to understand what you are concerned about, larger issues of wisdom, society etc.
You can't even muster interest in the DJs and K-pop singers she's hot for.

There's just little mutual interests. You could say men and women NEVER have mutual interests, but that's disingenuous.

For instance, I never have to worry about ( basic ) rent and food again. 20 somethings, even middle class American ones with wealthy parents , if the wealthy parents aren't going to support them, have to think about WORKING.
When I was 35, I still had to deal with working . It was something I shared with a 22 year old.

Talking about this is making me think about what IS shared between older and younger-- the beauty of nature-- being at the beach, in mountains etc-- that reaches deep-seated templates in all ages.

When I talk about going to a remote beach area here in the Phils, I get a good reaction from almost all ages.
Further study of which things specifically ALL AGES like and care about ( food sex various forms of travel) seem a VERY FRUITFUL area to focus on to narrow the gap between older and younger. I have an 18 year old now complaining about not having enough money for school, I was just about to block her but now I'm thinking, why not humor her? Not pay for play but tuition for good will?
==

Intelligence is another dividing factor-- The less beautiful are attracted to the more beautiful, but for the most part the less intelligent are not so attracted to the more intelligent. The significantly more intelligent just seem strange to them, they seem to be connecting things that the less intelligent don't see any point in connecting.

More than once I've given a girl an explanation (to me) / inane rant (to her) about heritage and how if she has kids with me in USA and/or Europe all future generations will be hugely advantaged in contrast to living in huts in the Phils, and their circuit breakers trip and more than one has used the word "nosebleed" to signify things that are too complex and far off to think about.

Somebody crueler and less politically correct than me would say they are only too far off to think about because the chick is too lazy and dumb to envision them, but of course I would never say that.

I specifically disavow the claim that Filipinas are as dumb as a box of rocks.

Post: #12

You can't fake desire and women are experts at detecting it. More than anything else, this is what turns a woman on - to be desired.

Post: #13

Disclaimer: I've only just begun to read Bang! and I haven't put myself through the Roosh program, so feel free to dismiss everything I say as "theoretical", "hypothetical", "non-practical", or "just plain wrong".

----------------------

Roosh's chapter on Intention and Inner Game is the most beautiful thing I've ever read. I'm a very smart 39 year old man, with a lot of reading background in philosophy, psychology, evolutionary biology, and relationships. But because I do so much thinking, I tend towards a depressive outlook.

If the purpose of life is to be happy, then what "good" is my intelligence and reading background if they tend towards depression? Or, a funnier way to put it, "If I'm so goddamn fucking smart, why am I so sad?"

So a vapid, happy chick is the end result of the emotions I want to embody, even though she doesn't have the intellect to meet me where I am right now. Which means my goal, (my Intention), of gaming a vapid, happy chick is to learn how to appreciate her vapidity and happiness by catering my approach to match what she wants and expects from any guy.

I foresee a lot of People-Watching Game peppered with Asshole Game, (making her slyly look at a couple over there or a chick over there, while making a sly comment), but not a lot of conversations about Future or philosophy. If I do this correctly, I'll be able to learn when and how to silence my brain when necessary, and to enjoy the freedom of having a silent brain that just laughs joyfully at what's in front of him.

MasculineOfCenter and Phoenix, if this makes sense to you, then you're probably looking down on vapid chicks. But looking down on vapid chicks prevents you from seeing that their vapidity can be a strength, (such as when you've accomplished something awesome, but you're exhausted and want to celebrate - do you really want Cerebral Chick who'll pepper you with questions, or do you want Vapid Chick who'll just smile and say, "That's great!"?)

Note, I'm *NOT* saying to enter into long-term exclusive relationships with Vapid Chicks, but I *AM* saying that you can change your Gaming-Intentions to "learning how to find the joy in being with a chick who is very different from me". Change your Intentions; change your outcome.

Hope that was helpful. If it wasn't, it's because I don't know what I'm talking about.

Post: #14

(05-09-2015 12:25 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Shooting too low.

WIA

This is a pretty good conclusion.
If you aren't getting nervous, then go get better girls.

Post: #15

(05-09-2015 04:33 PM)ClintTalks Wrote:  

(05-09-2015 12:25 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Shooting too low.

WIA

This is a pretty good conclusion.
If you aren't getting nervous, then go get better girls.

That is not what I meant at all.

But I do see that angle of it.

I think OP doesn't really see "it" yet.

Paraphrasing from an old thread

There's absolutely NO correlation between a girl's looks
- intelligence
- personality
- compatibility with you

I feel like one of those kung fu masters that hints at some secret powerful technique and then trails off to talk about chrysanthemums and dandelions.

It's just that what OP is talking about is a fairly big topic, and it goes back to
- how he feels about himself
- what he thinks he deserves
- what he thinks game is for
- how he views women in general, and these particular women he encounters.

Long story short, women are failing to meet his expectations, because he has messed up expectations. Not to pick on OP, but it's a lot of guys.

There's a strain of (lazy) game that says you just need to enjoy women for who they are. Basically, she's for cooking, cleaning, and cocksucking, but your boys and for conversation and camaraderie.

The problem with the lazy game dudes is that women are just objects to them. Slot B's for their Tab A's. There's a general sentiment on this board, but throughout the game-iverse that women are only good for certain things - and that idea of "flatness" only really pertains to women.

And if a woman has a thought, one that doesn't entice him, he dismisses it as standard female bullshit. If the thought challenges him, she's a feminist cunt.

On a different board, there's a video of a scantily clad playmate playing video games and drinking beer, entitled "the perfect girlfriend." Yet it's roundly dismissed as some bullshit only betas would want. So even when she shares an interest or a hobby, that's some bullshit as well.

So to recap, you've got guys that want chicks to fit fairly tight physical requirements, then they have to fit behavioral requirements, fit hobby and interest requirements, intellect and creativity requirements, and then personality requirements.

She has to walk this tight rope of diet and exercise, of submissiveness, and at the same time engage him in topics of his choosing with wit and insight.

Players find themselves tied up in knots, because even though they manage to sleep with these "hot" chicks, they find the time they spend with them outside of the sex to be monotonous and tedious.

And banging a chick and then not really digging her that much, always seems to make the chick more invested in winning his approval. And this unhealthy and destructive attitude itself actually makes him more of a lady killer.

Whereas the regular guy hangs on her every word, the player does not, and she senses it (not like a super hero, just like a regular human being that responds to body language and what is not said), and she finds him interesting because he's not like the rest.

This little pattern of behavior creates this sick spiral that often results in sex.

Knowing game shouldn't make you worse off than you were before you knew game.

If the intermediate player doesn't step back and understand this process, he can't get out of it.

So it's not about stepping up to an even hotter girl. The higher you go up the scale the harder it is to find a chick that makes you nervous. All the bitches bleed for 7-10 days a month.

More sex, faster sex, crazier sex, crazier set ups, the basic RSD path of pick up - doesn't get him to the place where he needs to be.

It's about rethinking what you're doing, what you've been doing, and why you're doing it.

I'll just leave it at that. I've got other things I need to write today.

Of course today RVF would have some interesting threads that I can't really dig into. Where was this during the week when I was at work bored out of my mind?

WIA

Post: #16

I'm sure what WIA is saying applies to some people, but just to be clear- I'm by no stretch an "advanced player" and I don't get laid on any consistent basis, BECAUSE of my evolved lack of passion for gaming.

I'll pull a girl's number and totally forget about it until I realize a week later I never texted her.
I typically have zero primal desire to physically escalate when on a date. It's just something I think to myself: "Oh, I guess I have to kiss her now if I ever want to see her again/bang her." But I usually don't do it cause I just don't feel like.
My happiness is inversely correlated to how many new dates I'm going on. When I have a date-free weekend, I feel so incredibly at ease... it feels amazing.

Most people would read that and think I have some kind of sex drive/low T type issue, but that's not true at all. I have a high sex drive and also a very high love drive. I'm not some porn addict who can only be turned on by tens either. I'm physically attracted to just about any young, thin woman. I just feel like my unconscious mind has revolted against the dating process. Everyone here knows (because I see other threads on it) that running decent game takes a ton of mental energy. Week after week, I would expend a ton of energy to look good and to try and hold a couple hours of fun, interesting conversation, only to have my date dress as though she didn't really give a shit, be a bit chubbier than in her photos, bring zero energy or playfulness, say nothing remotely interesting or unique the whole time, [often, but not always] stare blankly into space showing no acknowledgment or gratitude as I was paying for whatever we were doing, and then, if I texted her the next day because "hey she's not horrible looking and I wouldn't mind at least banging her," take hours to send back some lame response, or ignore me altogether. The asymmetry between the amount of effort I put in and the amount of effort I find the typical girl to put in is astounding.

Now, the energy is gone. Unless a girl gives me reason to believe she's different before the date happens, I just can't get at all enthused about going. And if there's one cardinal rule I've found from my experience with game, it's that no enthusiasm = no getting laid. People here have mentioned that you can't fake desire to a girl, and that's spot on.

Post: #17

I feel you. I know exactly what you are talking about. The results you are getting is simply not worth the effort you have to put in. I feel exactly the same way on most dates. Try Europe or if you are white, South America and Asia will work too.

Post: #18

(05-10-2015 12:01 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  Most people would read that and think I have some kind of sex drive/low T type issue, but that's not true at all. I have a high sex drive and also a very high love drive. I'm not some porn addict who can only be turned on by tens either. I'm physically attracted to just about any young, thin woman. I just feel like my unconscious mind has revolted against the dating process. Everyone here knows (because I see other threads on it) that running decent game takes a ton of mental energy. Week after week, I would expend a ton of energy to look good and to try and hold a couple hours of fun, interesting conversation, only to have my date dress as though she didn't really give a shit, be a bit chubbier than in her photos, bring zero energy or playfulness, say nothing remotely interesting or unique the whole time, [often, but not always] stare blankly into space showing no acknowledgment or gratitude as I was paying for whatever we were doing, and then, if I texted her the next day because "hey she's not horrible looking and I wouldn't mind at least banging her," take hours to send back some lame response, or ignore me altogether. The asymmetry between the amount of effort I put in and the amount of effort I find the typical girl to put in is astounding.

I laughed when I read this, because your description is incorrect by just a millimeter. But that millimeter-mistake is the cause of your anxiety.

You're NOT "revolting against the dating process"; you're "revolting against the apathy your dates bring to the dating process". You see your dates dress and act in certain ways, and it repulses you.

Quote:Now, the energy is gone. Unless a girl gives me reason to believe she's different before the date happens, I just can't get at all enthused about going. And if there's one cardinal rule I've found from my experience with game, it's that no enthusiasm = no getting laid. People here have mentioned that you can't fake desire to a girl, and that's spot on.

Your problem isn't that you're trying to "fake desire for a girl". Your problem is that you're not expressing your revulsion towards female apathy by calling out your dates!

Have you ever, angrily, said, "Wow. Great outfit. You gonna go garbage collecting when this date is over?" I hope not, because that would be horrible Game - but it would be an honest expression of your emotions, right?

Have you ever, playfully, said, "Are you sure you're XXX? I'm asking because she never told me she was a trash collector." The Game-veterans can tell me whether this is good Game or bad Game, but that, too, would be an honest expression of your emotions, right?

To me, it's like you're magically expecting your frustration / revulsion to teleport itself into the psyche of every datable woman, who'll say, "Wow! I never knew that! Now I can change!" That's not going to happen, so the best you can do is figure out a way to express your emotions with Amused Mastery.

Hope that was helpful.

Post: #19

(05-10-2015 04:12 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  Have you ever, playfully, said, "Are you sure you're XXX? I'm asking because she never told me she was a trash collector." The Game-veterans can tell me whether this is good Game or bad Game, but that, too, would be an honest expression of your emotions, right?

This would likely fly right over the head of the chick you are negging. That really isn't so bad, back handed compliments are great, if she isn't sure whether you are making fun of her or not, i'd say youre doing it right. (running cocky/funny game)

Post: #20

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  I don't care enough.

This is the root of your problem.

If you don't care, its hard to get better.

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  I'll have to find a way to entertain some vapid girl

Why would you try to entertain a "vapid" girl.

If a girl is "vapid", leave.

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  I think everyone here knows that when the raw passion and excitement isn't there, effective gaming becomes nearly impossible.

Correct. So, avoid girls that do not ignite your "raw passion" and "excitement" and start going after girls that do stimulate your passion and excitement.

(05-10-2015 12:01 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  I'll pull a girl's number and totally forget about it until I realize a week later I never texted her.

This is bad text game.

And/or, a lack of desire or effort.

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  I typically have zero primal desire to physically escalate when on a date.

1. The girls are not hot enough to stimulate your desire.
2. You are not a sexual person
3. You are gay.

I suspect that its a combination of #1 and #2.

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  When I have a date-free weekend, I feel so incredibly at ease... it feels amazing.

You don't want to date.

So, don't date.

We have a whole thread on "Zero Date Bangs"

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  I'm physically attracted to just about any young, thin woman.

If this is true, why don't you have the desire to physically escalate during dates?

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  I just feel like my unconscious mind has revolted against the dating process.

Yes, you do seem to be a little confused about this whole thing.

Again, you do not have to do dates.

"Dating" is only one strategy. There are many other strategies.

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  I would expend a ton of energy to look good and to try and hold a couple hours of fun, interesting conversation, only to have my date dress as though she didn't really give a shit, be a bit chubbier than in her photos

That's a bad date and a "Secret internet fattie"..

When this happens, immediately end the date and save your energy for a better prospect.

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  you can't fake desire to a girl

Why would you even want to fake desire.

If the girl does not stimulate your desire, find one that does.

(05-08-2015 09:32 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  how did you change your mindset and get out of it?

Go after hotter women.

Stop masturbating and looking at porn.

Find a strategy more in tune with your natural personality.

Post: #21

I think the O.P. may be an extreme introvert or have some kind of anxiety issues, it sounds like he dreads the whole process of gaming and dating women, but yet wants to "be in love with a beautiful intelligent woman." Sounds like he's more driven by pair-bonding than he is by his desire to purely have sex with women, I know guys like this, they're more interested in finding the "one" and being in love.

I do question the OP when he says he has a high sex drive, if he did he would desire sex from these women, and push to escalate sexually. This may be a psychological issue and not a case of low T. The other forum members have pointed out that it may be that these girls he's dating just aren't that sexually attractive, or at least he's not that into them. If I get a number from a hot 8 and she agrees to go on a date with me, you better believe I'm going to push hard to have sex with her, not out of a need to perform a checklist of game duties, but because I genuinely want to put my penis inside of her.

I can see how the OP may be an extreme introvert, therefore the act of gaming and dating is exhausting to him, and he feels more calm, relaxed, and at peace when he is just doing his own thing solo. For extroverts or guys who don't swing too far towards the introvert side of the spectrum this can be hard to understand. Hardcore introverts can find the process of forcing oneself to be extroverted, approach, be high energy, and charming to be somewhat taxing mentally and emotionally, especially in the U.S. dating market where women are ADHD, have very high standards, and are apathetic towards men, when they have an endless supply of options.

Post: #22

(05-11-2015 05:20 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  I can see how the OP may be an extreme introvert, therefore the act of gaming and dating is exhausting to him, and he feels more calm, relaxed, and at peace when he is just doing his own thing solo. For extroverts or guys who don't swing too far towards the introvert side of the spectrum this can be hard to understand. Hardcore introverts can find the process of forcing oneself to be extroverted, approach, be high energy, and charming to be somewhat taxing mentally and emotionally, especially in the U.S. dating market where women are ADHD, have very high standards, and are apathetic towards men, when they have an endless supply of options.

This. This nails it. I don't know about "extreme" introvert, but I'm without a doubt on that side of the spectrum. I suspect that would be true for most guys who post here (or are actively involved in any internet community).

Quote:I do question the OP when he says he has a high sex drive, if he did he would desire sex from these women, and push to escalate sexually. This may be a psychological issue and not a case of low T. The other forum members have pointed out that it may be that these girls he's dating just aren't that sexually attractive, or at least he's not that into them.

I've walked around NYC in the summer before. I felt like my dick was about to explode seeing all the hotties in sundresses. When in a relationship, I want to fuck at least once or twice per day.

But I rarely feel at all horny while on a first-date. One issue is definitely the way these girls present themselves. This may just be the type of girl I attract, but they ALWAYS err on the side of conservative (as opposed to revealing or slutty), and always err on the side of under-dressed (as opposed to dressed too nicely). I've been on probably >30 first-dates and I can't remember one who has worn any type of dress or tank top. It's always something that covers their entire body.

Another issue is that I feel like I have to focus so hard on being fun, interesting, dominant, [insert game principle here], etc. that I don't have any mental capacity left to be horny. Seriously. It feels like a job, and I'm guessing you don't get too many boners while concentrating intensely on something at work.

Hotness of the girls I date could also be a factor. Usually they're in the 5-6 area. One time I landed a couple dates with a girl I judged to be a hard 8, and in that case I did feel that primal urge to rip her clothes off and bang her senseless. But I can't consistently get dates with that caliber of hotness at my current level.

Post: #23

(05-11-2015 06:46 PM)MasculineOfCenter Wrote:  One time I landed a couple dates with a girl I judged to be a hard 8, and in that case I did feel that primal urge to rip her clothes off and bang her senseless. But I can't consistently get dates with that caliber of hotness at my current level.

you have to approach and ask more 8s out on dates. eventually some of them start to say 'yes'