Post: #126

Thanks for the detailed correction of my brain fart. I was considering height with similar muscle mass and not similar height with different muscle mass.

Post: #127

^Yep good explanation. Basically the ratio of fat-to-muscle is not the same as bodyfat percentage, as you've got at least 40+kg of bones, organs, etc.

More muscle mass lets you get away with higher bf %age and still look good, since it's the fat-to-muscle ratio that counts for aesthetics, not fat-to-total-mass. Also, some of that fat goes under your muscles, whereas most of the muscle mass built in the gym is on the "outside" e.g. contributes to aesthetics.

That said, high Bf %age over big muscles does result in the "looks good but feels squishy" phenomenon when you have a layer of blubber over some well-developed muscle. Still, better than "looks squishy and feels squishy" though.

Post: #128

From personal experience nothing makes you quite invisible to women than being fat. I've never been obese but I have been chubby. Girls don't even look your way and are less receptive to your game as well. There's more shit tests thrown your way when you're out of shape. But the biggest difference in my opinion is facial aesthetics, once I started losing the fat around my face, I noticed an uptick in eye contact and the girls were receptive and flirty.

Post: #129

(11-10-2015 08:11 AM)zombiejimmorrison Wrote:  From personal experience nothing makes you quite invisible to women than being fat. I've never been obese but I have been chubby. Girls don't even look your way and are less receptive to your game as well. There's more shit tests thrown your way when you're out of shape. But the biggest difference in my opinion is facial aesthetics, once I started losing the fat around my face, I noticed an uptick in eye contact and the girls were receptive and flirty.

Being considered very attractive by females is much better than having muscle.
I have very good muscle, but consider myself to be pretty average in looks.

The very good looking guys I know, with average to very good game, can get 9s every weekend without too much bother.
I agree that as soon as you are labelled "fat", you are harming yourself immeasurably.

Body builder types like me tend to under-estimate facial looks. Good looking guys tend to under-estimate game.

When it comes to scoring, we all over-estimate money.

I have been in gyms for twelve hours a week over ten years. I have seen and heard it all. What used to surprise me the most, but no longer does, is the guy who rocks up in the no-more-than-five-year-old Ferrari or Lamborghini (ultra-rare in Australia), with a mug head, no body shape and zero game being completely ignored by the good looking chicks.
They know he owns the car and could well be on AUD300,000 a year, but he has nothing else. In walks in the very good looking guy with no money and no muscle, but game, and he's bagged two or three in his first month of joining. Have seen that four times over ten years.

Post: #130

(11-11-2015 01:34 AM)pamplonabull Wrote:  I have been in gyms for twelve hours a week over ten years. I have seen and heard it all. What used to surprise me the most, but no longer does, is the guy who rocks up in the no-more-than-five-year-old Ferrari or Lamborghini (ultra-rare in Australia), with a mug head, no body shape and zero game being completely ignored by the good looking chicks.
They know he owns the car and could well be on AUD300,000 a year, but he has nothing else. In walks in the very good looking guy with no money and no muscle, but game, and he's bagged two or three in his first month of joining. Have seen that four times over ten years.

Let me play devil's advocate for just one second...bare with me...

Imagine now that the scenario is a high end company building rather than a gym. And your super hot gym girl is now the super hot receptionist/assistant/tea girl/whatever and sexy gym rat man is now the guy who changes the lightbulbs.

Do you still think it's so clear cut?

I don't because that is where rich but xyz guys get their hotties from outside social circle that the average guy cannot penetrate. It always has been and always will be.


The difference is situational.

No girl who takes her training seriously and values her reputation at the gym is gonna bang a fat guy with a Ferrari.

No girl who takes her career seriously and values her reputation at work is gonna bang Mr Muscles the janitor.

Blanket statements are oft misguided.

Post: #131

(11-11-2015 01:34 AM)pamplonabull Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 08:11 AM)zombiejimmorrison Wrote:  From personal experience nothing makes you quite invisible to women than being fat. I've never been obese but I have been chubby. Girls don't even look your way and are less receptive to your game as well. There's more shit tests thrown your way when you're out of shape. But the biggest difference in my opinion is facial aesthetics, once I started losing the fat around my face, I noticed an uptick in eye contact and the girls were receptive and flirty.

Being considered very attractive by females is much better than having muscle.
I have very good muscle, but consider myself to be pretty average in looks.

The very good looking guys I know, with average to very good game, can get 9s every weekend without too much bother.
I agree that as soon as you are labelled "fat", you are harming yourself immeasurably.

Body builder types like me tend to under-estimate facial looks. Good looking guys tend to under-estimate game.

When it comes to scoring, we all over-estimate money.

I have been in gyms for twelve hours a week over ten years. I have seen and heard it all. What used to surprise me the most, but no longer does, is the guy who rocks up in the no-more-than-five-year-old Ferrari or Lamborghini (ultra-rare in Australia), with a mug head, no body shape and zero game being completely ignored by the good looking chicks.
They know he owns the car and could well be on AUD300,000 a year, but he has nothing else. In walks in the very good looking guy with no money and no muscle, but game, and he's bagged two or three in his first month of joining. Have seen that four times over ten years.

To be honest it's not about the car or the bank roll. It's about the status. For women: 'attraction' is height of hypergamy. The rich guy raises her social status by allowing her access to the 'A' level parties. The good looking guy affords her status by dating a high value male. The guy with muscle affords her high status because [Typically] that male is at the apex of other males socially, the top scientist affords her high status because he is the top of her field etc etc.

To use your example: What value would a guy with a Ferrari provide to a woman in a gym? None. What value does a good looking male afford to a girl in the gym? He affords her the status of highlighting to the other women the quality of male she can get.

As men we tend project our own views of attraction assuming women think the same way. It's why we give compliments and defend her honour. Add femininity and that's what would attract a male to a female.

If there is one thing that men routinely fail to realise is that it's the status that a male affords a female that she is attracted to. It's the reason women are attracted to so many variations of men whilst men are attracted to [More or less] the exact same type of woman [Minor details aside].

Post: #132

(11-11-2015 02:45 AM)Rush87 Wrote:  

(11-11-2015 01:34 AM)pamplonabull Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 08:11 AM)zombiejimmorrison Wrote:  From personal experience nothing makes you quite invisible to women than being fat. I've never been obese but I have been chubby. Girls don't even look your way and are less receptive to your game as well. There's more shit tests thrown your way when you're out of shape. But the biggest difference in my opinion is facial aesthetics, once I started losing the fat around my face, I noticed an uptick in eye contact and the girls were receptive and flirty.

Being considered very attractive by females is much better than having muscle.
I have very good muscle, but consider myself to be pretty average in looks.

The very good looking guys I know, with average to very good game, can get 9s every weekend without too much bother.
I agree that as soon as you are labelled "fat", you are harming yourself immeasurably.

Body builder types like me tend to under-estimate facial looks. Good looking guys tend to under-estimate game.

When it comes to scoring, we all over-estimate money.

I have been in gyms for twelve hours a week over ten years. I have seen and heard it all. What used to surprise me the most, but no longer does, is the guy who rocks up in the no-more-than-five-year-old Ferrari or Lamborghini (ultra-rare in Australia), with a mug head, no body shape and zero game being completely ignored by the good looking chicks.
They know he owns the car and could well be on AUD300,000 a year, but he has nothing else. In walks in the very good looking guy with no money and no muscle, but game, and he's bagged two or three in his first month of joining. Have seen that four times over ten years.

To be honest it's not about the car or the bank roll. It's about the status. For women: 'attraction' is height of hypergamy. The rich guy raises her social status by allowing her access to the 'A' level parties. The good looking guy affords her status by dating a high value male. The guy with muscle affords her high status because [Typically] that male is at the apex of other males socially, the top scientist affords her high status because he is the top of her field etc etc.

To use your example: What value would a guy with a Ferrari provide to a woman in a gym? None. What value does a good looking male afford to a girl in the gym? He affords her the status of highlighting to the other women the quality of male she can get.

As men we tend project our own views of attraction assuming women think the same way. It's why we give compliments and defend her honour. Add femininity and that's what would attract a male to a female.

If there is one thing that men routinely fail to realise is that it's the status that a male affords a female that she is attracted to. It's the reason women are attracted to so many variations of men whilst men are attracted to [More or less] the exact same type of woman [Minor details aside].

The fundamental premise of your argument seems to revolve around short-term value. That is, the good looking, muscly guy in the gym affords instantaneous value in that environment, whereas the not so good looking guy has nothing more than a nice car nobody can see eight rows back in the car park / parking lot (for you yanks).

I agree with that premise.

But does it not point out the ridiculous short-sightedness of women? They take the good looking guy with no money and no prospects over the uglier guy with the world at his financial feet who can afford status to the woman in so many other ways moving forward, just because they happen to be in a gym? I appreciate that the better looking guy is out-pointing his richer counterpart in that particular environment, but why don't women look past that and think about their future when they go about choosing a long-term partner?

Your thoughts on how women are short-sighted in this regard?

Appreciated.

Post: #133

Quote:Being considered very attractive by females is much better than having muscle.

Changing your facial aesthetics is tremendously more difficult (sometimes impossible), requires costly surgery and is something the majority of people are actually not willing to do.
Building muscle does not require a financial but a time commitment, is possible for 95+% of people and will have guaranteed results (the extent of these results is something up for debate).

If you are a guy with below-average facial aesthetics (like me), there are two ways (in that order of importance) that will allow you to increase the number and quality of women you sleep with:
1) Up your game + approach more
2) Build muscle

There is no excuse for not lifting if your health allows it.

Post: #134

(11-11-2015 04:59 AM)johnfortunebg Wrote:  

Quote:Being considered very attractive by females is much better than having muscle.

Changing your facial aesthetics is tremendously more difficult (sometimes impossible), requires costly surgery and is something the majority of people are actually not willing to do.
Building muscle does not require a financial but a time commitment, is possible for 95+% of people and will have guaranteed results (the extent of these results is something up for debate).

If you are a guy with below-average facial aesthetics (like me), there are two ways (in that order of importance) that will allow you to increase the number and quality of women you sleep with:
1) Up your game + approach more
2) Build muscle

There is no excuse for not lifting if your health allows it.

All of that is a given. I started pumping iron because I liked the feeling. Then I liked the size. Game and muscle helps the average-looking guy immeasurably.

On the point of plastic surgery (PS)...and I may start a thread on this... I think it is under-used by men.

If I had my time again I would have gotten a nose job. I did visit a PS, and he said my nose was 10% too big for my face, but i didn't have the minerals to go through with it. I have a Roman nose. I'm half Greek ; half Egyptian.

This may sound weird to a lot of blokes, but I have totally changed my opinion on PS for males. If you are staring at the mirror in your early twenties and do not like what you see, once you're lean and have stripped all the fat off you, I reckon going under the knife can be world changing.

Post: #135

Your facial aesthetics will improve with more muscle mass and less body fat.

Post: #136

Strikeback, out of interest how does muscle mass affect facial looks?

Post: #137

Increased testosterone and improved health. It all shows in the face. You know how your face looks like crap when you are sick? It's the opposite when you're healthy and your test level is high. Your face looks more masculine and dominant.

If it weren't for privacy reason, I'd very much like to share my two different photos at the exact same weight - one from when I was younger and skinny-fat, one from right now, with much higher muscle mass and way lower body fat. I look very different.

However, you can probably see the same by searching for bodybuilding facial transformation.

Post: #138

(11-11-2015 06:47 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Strikeback, out of interest how does muscle mass affect facial looks?

he say also same time with lower body fat and that is a key.

Post: #139

Strikeback - you can show your body, just hide your face.

I thought the issue was with posting pics of chicks.

Post: #140

To lend to what Rudebwoy was saying, there was a Nigerian guy who used to roll with Roosh a little called Virgil Kent. His body was swole and from what I understood, he wasn't exactly struggling with lizards in DC which is a known hard market. He put up some pics of his frame on this forum and that was exactly what I am talking about. Of course, I imagine Virgil has game, Roosh doesn't tend to roll with guys who only talk but I'm 100 percent certain that spitting flames at these lizards was a lot easier with a stacked frame than just going out looking average like Joe Blow.

Another thing is, guys have to wear clothes to accentuate these physiques. If you go out looking dusty like Worzel Gummidge, even if you have the body of Hercules beneath, you are not doing yourself justice in the final presentation.

So for these guys who say a nice frame makes NO difference, I would like to see body pics (no homo) and then your body in your night club armour. Blur your face out or obscure it just like Anonymous Bosch did.

Post: #141

I believe frame makes a big difference. Back in March of 2015 I went back to the gym 3 days a week in addition to running 5 or 6 days a week. Back then I was 220lbs and I'm 5'11". Today I'm 200lbs about 14% BF trying to adjust the diet to get that down to 11% or so. The work in the last 8 months has resulted in a more definitive presence where ever I go. Part of that has to do with how I look and also how I project, I just have more "swagger" now.

Post: #142

(11-11-2015 02:02 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  No girl who takes her career seriously and values her reputation at work is gonna bang Mr Muscles the janitor.

Of course she will. The danger of banging Mr Muscles provides high emotional turmoil, which is Girl Crack. She risks utter self-destruction for lust, which she'll probably filter through a 'love' framework. A woman wanting to lose her self-identity to exist in a pure emotional state is Core Female Sexual Behaviour, from my experience.

On top of that, the class and power structure difference adds another level of transgressive frisson, along with the romanticised perception that the working class are 'earthier' and 'more real' that all privileged, wealthy women seem to possess.

This is why, say, a young psychologist gets disbarred for banging a criminal twice her age, or a teacher loses her job for banging her students. Nothing is as destructive to a woman as her own uncontrolled lust, and I suspect it's why religions usually have strong moral shaming constructs purely to control this female behavioural instinct.

In contrast, Ferrari guy offers comfort and security, which a woman may already possess. But add a rumour around the gym that the flashy wealth comes from him being a powerful Underworld figure, and then see how women's behaviour towards him would change.

Post: #143

(11-11-2015 12:38 PM)BassPlayaYo Wrote:  I believe frame makes a big difference. Back in March of 2015 I went back to the gym 3 days a week in addition to running 5 or 6 days a week. Back then I was 220lbs and I'm 5'11". Today I'm 200lbs about 14% BF trying to adjust the diet to get that down to 11% or so. The work in the last 8 months has resulted in a more definitive presence where ever I go. Part of that has to do with how I look and also how I project, I just have more "swagger" now.

Respectfully though, I don't think you 'look like you lift', or look like a 'big guy' - it's not a criticism, or meant as an insult, as I've mentioned earlier in the thread, I am a similar size to you - 6'1, 194lbs, somewhere around 10%bf, and I don't think I look like I lift, or look like a big guy, despite having some pretty respectable numbers, and despite being perfectly convinced that I am 'big enough' for all practical purposes for which I may wish to apply my size.

I think the benefits you mention are intrinsic, and wouldn't dispute that they are the result of a training program that makes you look like a fit and athletic bloke. But you, like me, are a long way from looking so muscular that people will stop and say 'that guy's huge'.

Post: #144

(11-08-2015 07:09 AM)EuroSlumming Wrote:  This subject will always get taken over by the USA 'bigger is better' perspective where working out is very popular. In some respects the US is perhaps the worst place to do it because the bar is set so much higher at the level of musculature (almost cartoon like) that is required to really stand out.

I have to agree with this, what is considered big nowadays has been completely skewed by the massive use of steroids in the US.

I know being big is definitely a plus, but at 5'9", 182lbs and with an 8 pack (not sure the exact BF% but it's low, maybe like 10%?) I'm close to my genetic muscle building limit, so unless I go the steroid route, which for personal reasons I won't, I'll never be considered "big" or even reach 200 or 210 ripped, it's just impossible, so guys like me have to develop other ways to attract girls and not rely solely on being "hyooge".

Obviously size can definitely bring quite a lot of advantages, just like some of the guys here have already mentioned, but since "big" nowadays is so extreme for you to reach that level you pretty much have to devote your life to this goal. Exercising and lifting are very important to me and will always be a part of my life but since we only have so much time before we die I rather dedicate some of that short available time to other things as well, like reading, constantly learning new things, dancing, business, etc. etc., basically developing a well rounded person and not just being the big guy. Not saying the guys here that are on steroids are not well rounded people, just speaking in general.

Post: #145

^Having a 8 pack sets you apart from the masses. Most people don't have visible abs, let alone a six pack. If you can get this naturally you are in great shape, you can add weight over time.

This is the average American male ... Not too hard to beat !
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archiv...dy/280194/

Post: #146

(11-11-2015 11:47 AM)Moma Wrote:  To lend to what Rudebwoy was saying, there was a Nigerian guy who used to roll with Roosh a little called Virgil Kent. His body was swole and from what I understood, he wasn't exactly struggling with lizards in DC which is a known hard market. He put up some pics of his frame on this forum and that was exactly what I am talking about.

You're Nigerian right Moma, that may be part of the reason why it seems so simple for you to just say, "hey bruv get into the gymnasium, swole your frame, and watch the lizards tongues start dropping" (I imagine in a London accent). Nigerians and West Africans are some of the biggest genetic outliers when it comes to natural physiques right up there with Polynesians (Samoans, Tongans, etc.)

Guys like Virgil Kent are going to yoke out and get jacked naturally about 10 times more easily then say a Japanese or Indian guy with a skin and bones natural frame. (Sorry don't mean to pick on the Indians and Japanese, just for reference sake).

Now before I once again get labeled a "gym denialist" let me state I'm a gym guy and a huge proponent of lifting, that should be mandatory for every guy, especially men who want to improve "their lot" with women. That said, it's not some magic bullet to get to that level, unless you are a genetic outlier or are using steroids.

I'm starting to beat a dead horse here, and this whole argument is just pointless, it just goes round and round in a circle, and the funny thing is we're all more or less in agreement with each other.

All I'm saying is that if you're not a genetic outlier and you don't want to use roids, be prepared to devote 1-2 hours, 4-6 days a week, for the next 5 years with dialed in diet, supplements, sleep, lifestyle, etc. to reach that mythical level of fitness that will get you easy pussy.

Post: #147

(11-11-2015 12:55 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  Respectfully though, I don't think you 'look like you lift', or look like a 'big guy' - it's not a criticism, or meant as an insult, as I've mentioned earlier in the thread, I am a similar size to you - 6'1, 194lbs, somewhere around 10%bf, and I don't think I look like I lift, or look like a big guy, despite having some pretty respectable numbers, and despite being perfectly convinced that I am 'big enough' for all practical purposes for which I may wish to apply my size.

I think the benefits you mention are intrinsic, and wouldn't dispute that they are the result of a training program that makes you look like a fit and athletic bloke. But you, like me, are a long way from looking so muscular that people will stop and say 'that guy's huge'.

I'm not making a claim that I'm huge or that's how people view me. I'm also not trying to look huge hence why I'm trying to lose weight, at least another 5lbs to get to 195. If I can get my body fat down to 10% that would be ideal for me and means when I'm sporting a t-shirt I most certainly look like I "lift" which is different from looking like a body builder.

Post: #148

(11-11-2015 05:02 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  You're Nigerian right Moma, that may be part of the reason why it seems so simple for you to just say, "hey bruv get into the gymnasium, swole your frame, and watch the lizards tongues start dropping" (I imagine in a London accent). Nigerians and West Africans are some of the biggest genetic outliers when it comes to natural physiques right up there with Polynesians (Samoans, Tongans, etc.)

Guys like Virgil Kent are going to yoke out and get jacked naturally about 10 times more easily then say a Japanese or Indian guy with a skin and bones natural frame. (Sorry don't mean to pick on the Indians and Japanese, just for reference sake).

Now before I once again get labeled a "gym denialist" let me state I'm a gym guy and a huge proponent of lifting, that should be mandatory for every guy, especially men who want to improve "their lot" with women. That said, it's not some magic bullet to get to that level, unless you are a genetic outlier or are using steroids.

I'm starting to beat a dead horse here, and this whole argument is just pointless, it just goes round and round in a circle, and the funny thing is we're all more or less in agreement with each other.

All I'm saying is that if you're not a genetic outlier and you don't want to use roids, be prepared to devote 1-2 hours, 4-6 days a week, for the next 5 years with dialed in diet, supplements, sleep, lifestyle, etc. to reach that mythical level of fitness that will get you easy pussy.

Ognor, the point isn't how hard it is to get that body, the point is, when one gets there, does gaming become exponentially easier? The answer is yes. There is no magic bullet for punani but many guys from different races (Anonymous Bosch is white and swollen and so is MikeCF) have also chimed in on this truth. Rionomad is also white and has chimed in. Again, you denialists are lazy, sorry to say. You just want some app that transforms your body for you. Sorry but you will have to do some heavy lifting.

P.S. I just came back from the gym and I am preparing some chicken to replenish my muscles.

Post: #149

Moma I agree with everything you said, but do you admit that West Africans have the best genetics?

Post: #150

(11-11-2015 11:21 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  Strikeback - you can show your body, just hide your face.

I thought the issue was with posting pics of chicks.

That would defeat my point about facial transformation though.

OGNorCal707 Wrote:Guys like Virgil Kent are going to yoke out and get jacked naturally about 10 times more easily then say a Japanese or Indian guy with a skin and bones natural frame. (Sorry don't mean to pick on the Indians and Japanese, just for reference sake).

Admittedly the Asian guys I know in powerlifting are neither Japanese nor Indian, but there are a lot of us (myself included, I'm of SEA background) who started out very skinny / skinny-fat and end up jacked. I don't know how easy / hard it is for each of us to get there, but for me it took about 4-5 years and I started very late (26 y.o) compared to most of them. We are definitely not genetic outliers and we are drug-free lifters. I doubt it's any easier for white or black guys in general to get a respectable physique. They will still have to put in the work. Besides, I'd rather focus on maximizing my own genetic potentials than how easy they may have it.

OGNorCal707 Wrote:All I'm saying is that if you're not a genetic outlier and you don't want to use roids, be prepared to devote 1-2 hours, 4-6 days a week, for the next 5 years with dialed in diet, supplements, sleep, lifestyle, etc. to reach that mythical level of fitness that will get you easy pussy.

Actually that's exactly what I've been doing. You make it seem like some kind of insane devotion, 'no pain no gain' that you have to suffer in order to get what you want though. To me, it is heaps of fun! The difference might be due to me training purely for strength and athleticism and not aesthetics, but my physique does reflect my strength.

Most guys these days spend at least that much time on video games or TV shows, and often way more. I don't play video games and I hardly watch any TV show. Training IS my video game.